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Post by aztecryan on Aug 14, 2022 9:01:36 GMT -8
He ain't lookin'very bright. He's got two strikes on him right now, in MY book. Can we get another team(s) interested in this 23 year old stud? He certainly has a high value and there are some teams that can affford him. "Round up the usual suspects!" Use the money that was going to be paid to FT2 and sign Soto to a longer deal. End of problem. Another chance to swing for the fences, AJ! Definitely not the end of the problem and some extremely faulty logic. He's already been paid. They already have the money to re-sign Soto. He has a full no trade clause. There are maybe a half dozen teams able to take on his salary and four of them play in the National League, two of them in the same division. Be careful what you wish for.
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Post by aztecryan on Aug 14, 2022 9:02:23 GMT -8
1st step in repositioning who's in charge here is strongly "urging" Tatis get that left shoulder surgery now. Otherwise, I can see him FINALLY getting back next May and 3 games in he dislocates his shoulder AGAIN and is out for a couple weeks. If that happens, I think it's time for him to go while you can still get a bunch of good prospects for him. Surgery doesn't fix the problem.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 14, 2022 9:19:45 GMT -8
Whoops.
— “It’s a thrilling day,” Seidler said. “There’s probably not too many 14-year contracts ahead in my lifetime, but I hope there are because in this case the stars are aligned. I know I was nowhere near as mature as this 22-year-old adult is when I was 22. But he has a passion to do great things in his profession. There’s a lot of trust, particularly between Fernando and A.J., which I’m sure came through pretty loud and pretty clear on the earlier Zoom call.
“It’s a rare chance to wake up the next day after we agreed to the contract and there’s no doubt in your mind. This is a good thing to do for all parties concerned. Our franchise, our ballclub … and significant to all of us is what a difference it makes for our fans, to know they can go to Petco (Park) any time we’re playing for 14 years and see this remarkable talent and great person and a tough team for any other team in baseball to play.”
Eighteen months later, those comments have not aged well. On Friday, Major League Baseball announced an 80-game suspension for Tatis.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 14, 2022 9:24:38 GMT -8
Honestly, I’m not too worried about him screwing up and taking PEDs again. I don’t think he’s that dumb, as another occurrence would almost certainly lead to a voided contract.
The shoulder still worries me, greatly.
1. I didn’t know it dated back to his teens. 2. I didn’t realize how many in the org preferred he have surgery.
From Dennis Lin today (the best there is) :
“ Preller has long prided himself on knowing the makeup of players, but his most prized asset has joined James Shields, Wil Myers and Eric Hosmer on a list of questionable contracts.
Then, after a couple of slight shoulder dislocations in spring training, Tatis separated his shoulder more seriously in the fifth game of the regular season. It happened twice more as the Padres collapsed — slowly at first, then spectacularly. In November, Tatis opted against undergoing shoulder surgery. His decision, which was made after consultation with doctors and people close to him, ran counter to the Padres’ wishes.
“Not surprised at all,” one person around the team said at the time. “He does whatever he wants.”
In February 2021, Seidler and Preller awarded Tatis the league’s longest contract ever despite holding most of the leverage. Tatis was two seasons and only 629 plate appearances into his big-league career. The Padres, who already controlled the infielder for the next four seasons, were aware that Tatis’ history of left-shoulder issues dated to his teenage years. At the time, some team officials wondered whether a record-setting commitment was too much too soon, whether it would have been more prudent to wait another year, whether the early hit to their competitive-balance tax figure would complicate their title pursuit. Some of those same employees were understandably excited about the franchise’s efforts to build on the momentum of a successful 60-game season in 2020.“
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Post by Deleted on Aug 14, 2022 9:28:17 GMT -8
The relationship between player and team is really strained. AJ Preller's statement was very firm. Probably making matters worse that Fernando lied in his statement - He tested positive for clostebol, an anabolic steroid. He blamed it on a ringworm treatment...but the drug that treats ringworm is clobetasol. Are you certain? I haven’t seen this mentioned in any articles.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 14, 2022 9:30:48 GMT -8
1st step in repositioning who's in charge here is strongly "urging" Tatis get that left shoulder surgery now. Otherwise, I can see him FINALLY getting back next May and 3 games in he dislocates his shoulder AGAIN and is out for a couple weeks. If that happens, I think it's time for him to go while you can still get a bunch of good prospects for him. Surgery doesn't fix the problem. With all due respect Ryan, you may want to stay in your lane here bud. I mean that w all respect and courtesy. You’re not a Physician, and the team Doctors recommended surgery didn’t they friend ?
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Post by docmm on Aug 14, 2022 9:35:50 GMT -8
1st step in repositioning who's in charge here is strongly "urging" Tatis get that left shoulder surgery now. Otherwise, I can see him FINALLY getting back next May and 3 games in he dislocates his shoulder AGAIN and is out for a couple weeks. If that happens, I think it's time for him to go while you can still get a bunch of good prospects for him. Surgery doesn't fix the problem. No surgery is 100% successful but every time he dislocates it, it's easier to do it again. At least the ligaments are tighter.
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Post by aztecryan on Aug 14, 2022 9:41:12 GMT -8
Honestly, I’m not too worried about him screwing up and taking PEDs again. I don’t think he’s that dumb, as another occurrence would almost certainly lead to a voided contract. The shoulder still worries me, greatly. 1. I didn’t know it dated back to his teens. 2. I didn’t realize how many in the org preferred he have surgery. From Dennis Lin today (the best there is) : “ Preller has long prided himself on knowing the makeup of players, but his most prized asset has joined James Shields, Wil Myers and Eric Hosmer on a list of questionable contracts. Then, after a couple of slight shoulder dislocations in spring training, Tatis separated his shoulder more seriously in the fifth game of the regular season. It happened twice more as the Padres collapsed — slowly at first, then spectacularly. In November, Tatis opted against undergoing shoulder surgery. His decision, which was made after consultation with doctors and people close to him, ran counter to the Padres’ wishes. “Not surprised at all,” one person around the team said at the time. “He does whatever he wants.” In February 2021, Seidler and Preller awarded Tatis the league’s longest contract ever despite holding most of the leverage. Tatis was two seasons and only 629 plate appearances into his big-league career. The Padres, who already controlled the infielder for the next four seasons, were aware that Tatis’ history of left-shoulder issues dated to his teenage years. At the time, some team officials wondered whether a record-setting commitment was too much too soon, whether it would have been more prudent to wait another year, whether the early hit to their competitive-balance tax figure would complicate their title pursuit. Some of those same employees were understandably excited about the franchise’s efforts to build on the momentum of a successful 60-game season in 2020.“ PED's and steroid suspensions are collectively bargained, they can't void the contract for that specific violation. The team wanted him to have surgery, but surgery isn't a guaranteed fix and the outcomes can be very unfortunate. Cody Bellinger is the oft-used example. He had the same shoulder surgery and has never recovered. It's a serious risk that even if he undergoes surgery, the stability isn't going to be there post-surgery and then you're into a different world of swing problems, mechanical issues and other messes.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 14, 2022 10:03:11 GMT -8
Honestly, I’m not too worried about him screwing up and taking PEDs again. I don’t think he’s that dumb, as another occurrence would almost certainly lead to a voided contract. The shoulder still worries me, greatly. 1. I didn’t know it dated back to his teens. 2. I didn’t realize how many in the org preferred he have surgery. From Dennis Lin today (the best there is) : “ Preller has long prided himself on knowing the makeup of players, but his most prized asset has joined James Shields, Wil Myers and Eric Hosmer on a list of questionable contracts. Then, after a couple of slight shoulder dislocations in spring training, Tatis separated his shoulder more seriously in the fifth game of the regular season. It happened twice more as the Padres collapsed — slowly at first, then spectacularly. In November, Tatis opted against undergoing shoulder surgery. His decision, which was made after consultation with doctors and people close to him, ran counter to the Padres’ wishes. “Not surprised at all,” one person around the team said at the time. “He does whatever he wants.” In February 2021, Seidler and Preller awarded Tatis the league’s longest contract ever despite holding most of the leverage. Tatis was two seasons and only 629 plate appearances into his big-league career. The Padres, who already controlled the infielder for the next four seasons, were aware that Tatis’ history of left-shoulder issues dated to his teenage years. At the time, some team officials wondered whether a record-setting commitment was too much too soon, whether it would have been more prudent to wait another year, whether the early hit to their competitive-balance tax figure would complicate their title pursuit. Some of those same employees were understandably excited about the franchise’s efforts to build on the momentum of a successful 60-game season in 2020.“ PED's and steroid suspensions are collectively bargained, they can't void the contract for that specific violation. The team wanted him to have surgery, but surgery isn't a guaranteed fix and the outcomes can be very unfortunate. Cody Bellinger is the oft-used example. He had the same shoulder surgery and has never recovered. It's a serious risk that even if he undergoes surgery, the stability isn't going to be there post-surgery and then you're into a different world of swing problems, mechanical issues and other messes. Just for PEDs no, you’re correct. “ When teams have tried to void contracts in the past, they have relied on paragraph 7(b)1 of the uniform player's contract, which states that a contract can be voided if a player "shall fail, refuse, or neglect to conform his personal conduct to the standards of good citizenship and good sportsmanship or keep himself in first-class physical condition.'' Paragraph 3 (a), furthermore, states that "The player agrees to perform his services hereunder diligently and faithfully, to keep himself in first-class physical condition and to obey the club's training rules, and pledges himself to the American public and to the club to conform to high standards of personal conduct, fair play and good sportsmanship.''
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Post by aztecryan on Aug 14, 2022 10:07:01 GMT -8
The relationship between player and team is really strained. AJ Preller's statement was very firm. Probably making matters worse that Fernando lied in his statement - He tested positive for clostebol, an anabolic steroid. He blamed it on a ringworm treatment...but the drug that treats ringworm is clobetasol. Are you certain? I haven’t seen this mentioned in any articles. Read his statement, or better stated, the one put out by the MLBPA. He blamed a ringworm treatment. Clobetasol is used to treat ringworm.
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Post by aztecryan on Aug 14, 2022 10:10:48 GMT -8
Surgery doesn't fix the problem. With all due respect Ryan, you may want to stay in your lane here bud. I mean that w all respect and courtesy. You’re not a Physician, and the team Doctors recommended surgery didn’t they friend ? I've had PLENTY of work done on me from orthopedic surgeons and have talked to multiple orthopedic surgeons to get that specific question answered. Of course the team wanted him to have surgery, they want a resolution that they deem better. That doesn't mean he's going to be 100% after the surgery, there's still a likelihood it dislocates again and that's not even touching on the swing issues.
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Post by aztecryan on Aug 14, 2022 10:12:11 GMT -8
PED's and steroid suspensions are collectively bargained, they can't void the contract for that specific violation. The team wanted him to have surgery, but surgery isn't a guaranteed fix and the outcomes can be very unfortunate. Cody Bellinger is the oft-used example. He had the same shoulder surgery and has never recovered. It's a serious risk that even if he undergoes surgery, the stability isn't going to be there post-surgery and then you're into a different world of swing problems, mechanical issues and other messes. Just for PEDs no, you’re correct. “ When teams have tried to void contracts in the past, they have relied on paragraph 7(b)1 of the uniform player's contract, which states that a contract can be voided if a player "shall fail, refuse, or neglect to conform his personal conduct to the standards of good citizenship and good sportsmanship or keep himself in first-class physical condition.'' Paragraph 3 (a), furthermore, states that "The player agrees to perform his services hereunder diligently and faithfully, to keep himself in first-class physical condition and to obey the club's training rules, and pledges himself to the American public and to the club to conform to high standards of personal conduct, fair play and good sportsmanship.'' Correct. A "morals" clause. The motorcycle accident violated his prohibited activities clause in his contract. Things outside the steroid scope can be utilized to either void the deal or to recoup money.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 14, 2022 10:59:41 GMT -8
With all due respect Ryan, you may want to stay in your lane here bud. I mean that w all respect and courtesy. You’re not a Physician, and the team Doctors recommended surgery didn’t they friend ? I've had PLENTY of work done on me from orthopedic surgeons and have talked to multiple orthopedic surgeons to get that specific question answered. Of course the team wanted him to have surgery, they want a resolution that they deem better. That doesn't mean he's going to be 100% after the surgery, there's still a likelihood it dislocates again and that's not even touching on the swing issues. Fair take. Not sure about making a definitive statement that it wouldn’t fix anything, but I can understand wanting to avoid the knife at aged 22. No guarantees, of course.
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Post by aztecryan on Aug 14, 2022 11:37:22 GMT -8
I've had PLENTY of work done on me from orthopedic surgeons and have talked to multiple orthopedic surgeons to get that specific question answered. Of course the team wanted him to have surgery, they want a resolution that they deem better. That doesn't mean he's going to be 100% after the surgery, there's still a likelihood it dislocates again and that's not even touching on the swing issues. Fair take. Not sure about making a definitive statement that it wouldn’t fix anything, but I can understand wanting to avoid the knife at aged 22. No guarantees, of course. Fair. I shouldn't be as matter of fact. But I feel confident that's it a complicated issue no matter what side it's on. Bellinger's shoulder caused him to have to retool his entire swing after surgery and he went from an MVP to an afterthought. Fernando's style of play is also pretty wild, so you'd think chances are there could be even higher risk.
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Post by The Aztec Panther on Aug 14, 2022 14:44:51 GMT -8
This is sounding more and more like a contract that is going to hurt this team long term. LONG term. Unless they can find some way to void it, that shoulder is likely going to become a very serious issue.
It sounds to me like this contract was 8 years too long, and was made with the most wishful of wishful thinking.
Worst case scenario, his shoulder ends his career in a few years they're paying him for several years after he can't play anymore. WORST case scenario.
Best case scenario he grows up, takes responsibility, and continues as an all star throughout the contract.
Most realistic - he has some good years, but never gets back to the form that earned him this contract and the Padres are crippled by it.
Why is it every time I say, "There's no way the Padres can win a World Series," then have people convince me I'm wrong that something happens to indicate that I was right in the first place?
Right now I'm freaking PISSED at Tatis and Preller. Both equally. Tatis for behaving irresponsibly multiple times, hurting the team and the fans, and Preller for giving him an absurd contract before he proved he was worth it.
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Post by johneaztec on Aug 14, 2022 14:52:20 GMT -8
This is sounding more and more like a contract that is going to hurt this team long term. LONG term. Unless they can find some way to void it, that shoulder is likely going to become a very serious issue. It sounds to me like this contract was 8 years too long, and was made with the most wishful of wishful thinking. Worst case scenario, his shoulder ends his career in a few years they're paying him for several years after he can't play anymore. WORST case scenario. Best case scenario he grows up, takes responsibility, and continues as an all star throughout the contract. Most realistic - he has some good years, but never gets back to the form that earned him this contract and the Padres are crippled by it. Why is it every time I say, "There's no way the Padres can win a World Series," then have people convince me I'm wrong that something happens to indicate that I was right in the first place? Right now I'm freaking PISSED at Tatis and Preller. Both equally. Tatis for behaving irresponsibly multiple times, hurting the team and the fans, and Preller for giving him an absurd contract before he proved he was worth it. My question is, if the Padres didn't give him that contract, would somebody else have? Did they feel they needed to act now before somebody else grabbed him? I can't remember his status with the team at the time he signed that contract.
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Post by aztecryan on Aug 14, 2022 14:58:06 GMT -8
This is sounding more and more like a contract that is going to hurt this team long term. LONG term. Unless they can find some way to void it, that shoulder is likely going to become a very serious issue. It sounds to me like this contract was 8 years too long, and was made with the most wishful of wishful thinking. Worst case scenario, his shoulder ends his career in a few years they're paying him for several years after he can't play anymore. WORST case scenario. Best case scenario he grows up, takes responsibility, and continues as an all star throughout the contract. Most realistic - he has some good years, but never gets back to the form that earned him this contract and the Padres are crippled by it. Why is it every time I say, "There's no way the Padres can win a World Series," then have people convince me I'm wrong that something happens to indicate that I was right in the first place? Right now I'm freaking PISSED at Tatis and Preller. Both equally. Tatis for behaving irresponsibly multiple times, hurting the team and the fans, and Preller for giving him an absurd contract before he proved he was worth it. His contract is a bargain, even if he misses 20-25% of a season. He was a 7 WAR player in 130 games last season. That's top of the scale numbers. He was the highest WAR player in baseball last season. There is nothing to indicate the shoulder is going to end his career. Zero. Could it dislocate post-surgery? Sure. Is it going to force him to stop playing? No. There's also nothing to indicate that the Padres are going to be "crippled" by the contract. The franchise has exploded in value since Seidler took over. Signing Tatis to a bargain, below market value (FAR below) contract is part of the process and risk involved. Things happen. You can't forecast every single scenario. If he stayed healthy and they waited a year or two closer to free agency, his arbitration numbers would have skyrocketed and the extension would have been significantly more. The deal was absolutely 100% fine. He would have to absolutely crater (I'm talking near replacement levels) in order to not provide any value on the deal. There are some things you just can't control, external factors beyond the scope of what is possible. When he comes back next season, I expect that he'll be back to Tatis-like production. His adjustment levels are off the charts.
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Post by aztecryan on Aug 14, 2022 15:09:40 GMT -8
This is sounding more and more like a contract that is going to hurt this team long term. LONG term. Unless they can find some way to void it, that shoulder is likely going to become a very serious issue. It sounds to me like this contract was 8 years too long, and was made with the most wishful of wishful thinking. Worst case scenario, his shoulder ends his career in a few years they're paying him for several years after he can't play anymore. WORST case scenario. Best case scenario he grows up, takes responsibility, and continues as an all star throughout the contract. Most realistic - he has some good years, but never gets back to the form that earned him this contract and the Padres are crippled by it. Why is it every time I say, "There's no way the Padres can win a World Series," then have people convince me I'm wrong that something happens to indicate that I was right in the first place? Right now I'm freaking PISSED at Tatis and Preller. Both equally. Tatis for behaving irresponsibly multiple times, hurting the team and the fans, and Preller for giving him an absurd contract before he proved he was worth it. My question is, if the Padres didn't go ve him that contract, would somebody else have? Did they feel they needed to act now before so.ebody else grabbed him? I can't remember his status with the team at the time he signed that contract. Would have been a free agent in 2025.
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Post by The Aztec Panther on Aug 14, 2022 15:53:49 GMT -8
This is sounding more and more like a contract that is going to hurt this team long term. LONG term. Unless they can find some way to void it, that shoulder is likely going to become a very serious issue. It sounds to me like this contract was 8 years too long, and was made with the most wishful of wishful thinking. Worst case scenario, his shoulder ends his career in a few years they're paying him for several years after he can't play anymore. WORST case scenario. Best case scenario he grows up, takes responsibility, and continues as an all star throughout the contract. Most realistic - he has some good years, but never gets back to the form that earned him this contract and the Padres are crippled by it. Why is it every time I say, "There's no way the Padres can win a World Series," then have people convince me I'm wrong that something happens to indicate that I was right in the first place? Right now I'm freaking PISSED at Tatis and Preller. Both equally. Tatis for behaving irresponsibly multiple times, hurting the team and the fans, and Preller for giving him an absurd contract before he proved he was worth it. My question is, if the Padres didn't go ve him that contract, would somebody else have? Did they feel they needed to act now before so.ebody else grabbed him? I can't remember his status with the team at the time he signed that contract. He still had 4 years on his contract from what I've read. There was NO rush to sign him. He wasn't going anywhere.
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Post by aztecryan on Aug 14, 2022 15:56:58 GMT -8
My question is, if the Padres didn't go ve him that contract, would somebody else have? Did they feel they needed to act now before so.ebody else grabbed him? I can't remember his status with the team at the time he signed that contract. He still had 4 years on his contract from what I've read. There was NO rush to sign him. He wasn't going anywhere. Using hindsight to justify a narrative isn't really fair to the actual process.
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