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Post by survalli on Nov 16, 2020 15:20:39 GMT -8
YES!! Signing another pitcher for 2 years, but only having him available for 1, due to his Tommy John Surgery scheduled for tomorrow. Signing trading for another pitcher for 2 years, but only having him available for 1. We just come out on the losing end all time when trading with the Indians. every single time!
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Post by aardvark on Nov 16, 2020 15:47:15 GMT -8
YES!! Signing another pitcher for 2 years, but only having him available for 1, due to his Tommy John Surgery scheduled for tomorrow. Signing trading for another pitcher for 2 years, but only having him available for 1. We just come out on the losing end all time when trading with the Indians. every single time! At this point, I'm even more concerned about Lamet now.
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Post by aztecryan on Nov 16, 2020 15:51:22 GMT -8
YES!! Signing another pitcher for 2 years, but only having him available for 1, due to his Tommy John Surgery scheduled for tomorrow. Signing trading for another pitcher for 2 years, but only having him available for 1. We just come out on the losing end all time when trading with the Indians. every single time! He was already under contract for next year. They just removed his arbitration years and signed him to a much cheaper than forecasted deal. His biomechanics make him an injury risk and he's never thrown a full season. It's still a trade you make 100/100 times.
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Post by aardvark on Nov 16, 2020 16:04:40 GMT -8
Signing trading for another pitcher for 2 years, but only having him available for 1. We just come out on the losing end all time when trading with the Indians. every single time! He was already under contract for next year. They just removed his arbitration years and signed him to a much cheaper than forecasted deal. His biomechanics make him an injury risk and he's never thrown a full season. It's still a trade you make 100/100 times. "...he's never thrown a full season." 2018 doesn't count?
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Post by aztecryan on Nov 16, 2020 20:10:21 GMT -8
He was already under contract for next year. They just removed his arbitration years and signed him to a much cheaper than forecasted deal. His biomechanics make him an injury risk and he's never thrown a full season. It's still a trade you make 100/100 times. "...he's never thrown a full season." 2018 doesn't count? You're right, that slipped my mind. 1 full season.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 17, 2020 9:00:06 GMT -8
It's definitely concerning, as this will be his *second* TJ surgery.
So yeah, it sucks but I still see the value & upside here. He could be a great rotational piece in 2022 sliding in to join Lamet, Gore, Paddack (hopefully), etc. and the players sent out aren't going to hamstring SDP.
Hedges (garbage) Naylor (a player I like alot, but not a star by any means) Quantrill (likely a 5th starter or reliever) Owen Miller (fringe guy) Gabriel Arias (you dont need a SS or 2B).
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Post by survalli on Nov 17, 2020 9:15:49 GMT -8
It's definitely concerning, as this will be his *second* TJ surgery. So yeah, it sucks but I still see the value & upside here. He could be a great rotational piece in 2022 sliding in to join Lamet, Gore, Paddack (hopefully), etc. and the players sent out aren't going to hamstring SDP. Hedges (garbage) Naylor (a player I like alot, but not a star by any means) Quantrill (likely a 5th starter or reliever) Owen Miller (fringe guy) Gabriel Arias (you dont need a SS or 2B). maybe, but they could have been used to trade for a quality starter or another prospect that wasnt so risky.
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Post by aztecryan on Nov 17, 2020 9:29:24 GMT -8
It's definitely concerning, as this will be his *second* TJ surgery. So yeah, it sucks but I still see the value & upside here. He could be a great rotational piece in 2022 sliding in to join Lamet, Gore, Paddack (hopefully), etc. and the players sent out aren't going to hamstring SDP. Hedges (garbage) Naylor (a player I like alot, but not a star by any means) Quantrill (likely a 5th starter or reliever) Owen Miller (fringe guy) Gabriel Arias (you dont need a SS or 2B). maybe, but they could have been used to trade for a quality starter or another prospect that wasnt so risky. You don't deal in hypotheticals.
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Post by survalli on Nov 17, 2020 10:49:45 GMT -8
maybe, but they could have been used to trade for a quality starter or another prospect that wasnt so risky. You don't deal in hypotheticals. dealt for Clevinger on hypotheticals. knowing he had only pitched 1 full season at 29 years of age. and Ryan hypotheticals are the backbone of scientific principals, principals which embrace analytics.
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Post by aztecryan on Nov 17, 2020 12:57:14 GMT -8
You don't deal in hypotheticals. dealt for Clevinger on hypotheticals. knowing he had only pitched 1 full season at 29 years of age. and Ryan hypotheticals are the backbone of scientific principals, principals which embrace analytics. He was the top starter actually available (with team control remaining, which influences all decisions on roster composition) and there was no path to playing time, nor serious headline piece for the entire package of what we gave Cleveland. Injuries happen, but it's still a deal you make for a team in contention.
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Post by survalli on Nov 17, 2020 13:42:38 GMT -8
dealt for Clevinger on hypotheticals. knowing he had only pitched 1 full season at 29 years of age. and Ryan hypotheticals are the backbone of scientific principals, principals which embrace analytics. He was the top starter actually available (with team control remaining, which influences all decisions on roster composition) and there was no path to playing time, nor serious headline piece for the entire package of what we gave Cleveland. Injuries happen, but it's still a deal you make for a team in contention. wont spend too much time on this, but your point that there was no serious headliner in the trade is a red flag in itself or at least a yellow flag. Coming off of injury which kept him out most of the year, team control etc, seems to me we overbid. Roster composition again, red herring, those prospects could have been dealt for another starter (maybe not as shiny) or another prospect. it is what it is. not knocking Preller for trying. it was risky, and it isnt going to pay off for the team, much like it hasnt for Garrett Richards (better deal).
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Post by aztecryan on Nov 17, 2020 14:56:20 GMT -8
He was the top starter actually available (with team control remaining, which influences all decisions on roster composition) and there was no path to playing time, nor serious headline piece for the entire package of what we gave Cleveland. Injuries happen, but it's still a deal you make for a team in contention. wont spend too much time on this, but your point that there was no serious headliner in the trade is a red flag in itself or at least a yellow flag. Coming off of injury which kept him out most of the year, team control etc, seems to me we overbid. Roster composition again, red herring, those prospects could have been dealt for another starter (maybe not as shiny) or another prospect. it is what it is. not knocking Preller for trying. it was risky, and it isnt going to pay off for the team, much like it hasnt for Garrett Richards (better deal). The fact there wasn't a headliner in the deal doesn't mean what you think it means.
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Post by sdcoug on Nov 18, 2020 10:09:48 GMT -8
It's definitely concerning, as this will be his *second* TJ surgery. So yeah, it sucks but I still see the value & upside here. He could be a great rotational piece in 2022 sliding in to join Lamet, Gore, Paddack (hopefully), etc. and the players sent out aren't going to hamstring SDP. Hedges (garbage) Naylor (a player I like alot, but not a star by any means) Quantrill (likely a 5th starter or reliever) Owen Miller (fringe guy) Gabriel Arias (you dont need a SS or 2B). What I find amusing is the sky is falling crowd who now thinks we'll drop to being a mediocre team because Clevenger isn't available next year. Last I checked, he didn't really impact our team this year, we didn't lose anything of major value in the trade, and last I checked we were pretty damn good this year. I wouldn't call Hedges "garbage", but we upgraded our catcher position, and while FA will dictate some additional changes, none of the guys we lost in that trade would change the potential of next years team. If we lose Lamet as well then the equation changes, but losing Clevenger while knowing we'll have him in '22 isn't the end of the world. Like Ryan said, I'd make that trade 100 out of 100 times. We lost a decent guy in Quantrill, but have 3-4 others just like him still in the system. Miller & Arias are very talented, but blocked, and trading them allowed us to keep some guys we may have lost to Rule 5 anyway. Risk or no risk, given his mechanics, making the trade was a no brainer.
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Post by aardvark on Nov 18, 2020 10:46:05 GMT -8
It's definitely concerning, as this will be his *second* TJ surgery. So yeah, it sucks but I still see the value & upside here. He could be a great rotational piece in 2022 sliding in to join Lamet, Gore, Paddack (hopefully), etc. and the players sent out aren't going to hamstring SDP. Hedges (garbage) Naylor (a player I like alot, but not a star by any means) Quantrill (likely a 5th starter or reliever) Owen Miller (fringe guy) Gabriel Arias (you dont need a SS or 2B). What I find amusing is the sky is falling crowd who now thinks we'll drop to being a mediocre team because Clevenger isn't available next year. Last I checked, he didn't really impact our team this year, we didn't lose anything of major value in the trade, and last I checked we were pretty damn good this year. I wouldn't call Hedges "garbage", but we upgraded our catcher position, and while FA will dictate some additional changes, none of the guys we lost in that trade would change the potential of next years team. If we lose Lamet as well then the equation changes, but losing Clevenger while knowing we'll have him in '22 isn't the end of the world. Like Ryan said, I'd make that trade 100 out of 100 times. We lost a decent guy in Quantrill, but have 3-4 others just like him still in the system. Miller & Arias are very talented, but blocked, and trading them allowed us to keep some guys we may have lost to Rule 5 anyway. Risk or no risk, given his mechanics, making the trade was a no brainer. Lamet worries me.
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Post by aztecryan on Nov 18, 2020 14:01:03 GMT -8
What I find amusing is the sky is falling crowd who now thinks we'll drop to being a mediocre team because Clevenger isn't available next year. Last I checked, he didn't really impact our team this year, we didn't lose anything of major value in the trade, and last I checked we were pretty damn good this year. I wouldn't call Hedges "garbage", but we upgraded our catcher position, and while FA will dictate some additional changes, none of the guys we lost in that trade would change the potential of next years team. If we lose Lamet as well then the equation changes, but losing Clevenger while knowing we'll have him in '22 isn't the end of the world. Like Ryan said, I'd make that trade 100 out of 100 times. We lost a decent guy in Quantrill, but have 3-4 others just like him still in the system. Miller & Arias are very talented, but blocked, and trading them allowed us to keep some guys we may have lost to Rule 5 anyway. Risk or no risk, given his mechanics, making the trade was a no brainer. Lamet worries me. He's on track to begin his throwing program in 2 weeks. Lamet shouldn't worry you, the organizational issues should.
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Post by azson on Nov 18, 2020 15:44:55 GMT -8
He's on track to begin his throwing program in 2 weeks. Lamet shouldn't worry you, the organizational issues should. What issues are you referring to?
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Post by aztecryan on Nov 18, 2020 15:58:23 GMT -8
He's on track to begin his throwing program in 2 weeks. Lamet shouldn't worry you, the organizational issues should. What issues are you referring to? I don't really want to get deep into it, but hopefully it improves with Seidler running the day-to-day operations. It's a lot of poor decisions that have been made on the medical front.
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Post by aardvark on Nov 18, 2020 16:07:17 GMT -8
He's on track to begin his throwing program in 2 weeks. Lamet shouldn't worry you, the organizational issues should. You will have to excuse me if your response doesn't make me feel any better. When he is back throwing off of a mound at 100%, then I may be relieved.
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Post by aztecryan on Nov 18, 2020 16:12:14 GMT -8
He's on track to begin his throwing program in 2 weeks. Lamet shouldn't worry you, the organizational issues should. You will have to excuse me if your response doesn't make me feel any better. When he is back throwing off of a mound at 100%, then I may be relieved. His injury was different than Clevinger's, so I don't think a comparison of the two situations is fair.
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Post by aardvark on Nov 18, 2020 16:16:32 GMT -8
You will have to excuse me if your response doesn't make me feel any better. When he is back throwing off of a mound at 100%, then I may be relieved. His injury was different than Clevinger's, so I don't think a comparison of the two situations is fair. I think it's more than fair, based on part of your own post earlier--"...a lot of poor decisions that have been made on the medical front."
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