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Ukraine
Mar 6, 2014 13:26:18 GMT -8
Post by 78aztec82 on Mar 6, 2014 13:26:18 GMT -8
abcnews.go.com/Politics/president-obama-imposes-sanctions-individuals-ukraine-crisis/story?id=22803008More warnings! No real Red Lines drawn... We offer international observers, that should do it, although Moscow has apparently suggested that local elections be conducted to determine the national identity of the various areas in the Crimea. The voting would include Russian Nationals living there. That would violate the Ukrainian contstitution. I am glad the President has "insisted" that Russia respect Ukrainian law. That will work! Oh, that is right, Russia already violated myriad Ukrainian laws and territorial integrity. Now, local Russian nationals and ethnic Russians are beginning to agitate. What does anyone bet that this will be the trigger for mor Russian troops "to protect Russian citizens?" This is almost too easy for Putin. Does anyone here like what is going on in Ukraine? Support actions being taken by the US, by Ukraine, by Russia?
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Ukraine
Mar 11, 2014 9:36:48 GMT -8
Post by AlwaysAnAztec on Mar 11, 2014 9:36:48 GMT -8
It looks like Ukraine is talking about invoking the 1994 agreement. If they make a formal request then we are obligated to move troops into Ukraine to assist in their defense. Oh Boy. >> Link <<
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Ukraine
Mar 11, 2014 14:11:37 GMT -8
Post by 78aztec82 on Mar 11, 2014 14:11:37 GMT -8
This is almost too easy for Putin. Does anyone here like what is going on in Ukraine? Support actions being taken by the US, by Ukraine, by Russia? I doubt that anyone "likes" what's going on in Ukraine any more than what's happening with Islamic terrorists. However, very few americans dislike any of this enough to do anything substantive about it. Obama is Putin's bitch. VERY much reminds me of the Carter years. No doubt. I note that he hasn't had any defenders in this thread. Speaks volumes.
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Ukraine
Mar 11, 2014 14:28:51 GMT -8
Post by AlwaysAnAztec on Mar 11, 2014 14:28:51 GMT -8
Continue to hate Haters.
Right now, Obama IS doing the right thing. Trying to solve the crisis in a diplomatic way.
If he is called on to fulfill our obligations then I pray that he will do the right thing.
And I pray that it doesn't have to come to that.
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Post by 78aztec82 on Mar 11, 2014 15:20:32 GMT -8
Continue to hate Haters. Right now, Obama IS doing the right thing. Trying to solve the crisis in a diplomatic way. If he is called on to fulfill our obligations then I pray that he will do the right thing. And I pray that it doesn't have to come to that. Who's a hater? I think he's failed. I think I've made the case that Putin has acted without check and continues to grow his case to keep Crimea with a sham, unconstitutional referendum I pointed out nearly a week ago would occur. I am curious as to anything he has done that is right since I stated up front that this wasn't a military solution case. The Russian occupation grows daily, protestors have been met with violence and we've done nothing. Sent from my DROID RAZR using proboards
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Post by 78aztec82 on Mar 11, 2014 15:35:15 GMT -8
It looks like Ukraine is talking about invoking the 1994 agreement. If they make a formal request then we are obligated to move troops into Ukraine to assist in their defense. Oh Boy. >> Link <<When I pointed that out last week here, I was surprised no one commented. Fear not, we won't respond militarily. I pondered what we would do but also pointed out that our agreements and treaties are now effectively worthless and no doubt are begging Ukraine to not invoke the Clinton treaty. Sent from my DROID RAZR using proboards
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Post by 78aztec82 on Mar 11, 2014 15:42:32 GMT -8
It looks like Ukraine is talking about invoking the 1994 agreement. If they make a formal request then we are obligated to move troops into Ukraine to assist in their defense. Oh Boy. >> Link <<Even if he wanted, Obama hasn't slowed his aggressive military drawdown so he couldn't do much anyway. As I stated earlier we need to temporarily suspend military cuts to show resolve. Sent from my DROID RAZR using proboards
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Ukraine
Mar 11, 2014 16:21:55 GMT -8
Post by AlwaysAnAztec on Mar 11, 2014 16:21:55 GMT -8
It looks like Ukraine is talking about invoking the 1994 agreement. If they make a formal request then we are obligated to move troops into Ukraine to assist in their defense. Oh Boy. >> Link <<Even if he wanted, Obama hasn't slowed his aggressive military drawdown so he couldn't do much anyway. As I stated earlier we need to temporarily suspend military cuts to show resolve. Sent from my DROID RAZR using proboards Agree
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Post by 78aztec82 on Mar 11, 2014 17:28:52 GMT -8
As I stated earlier we need to temporarily suspend military cuts to show resolve. "Temporarily suspend" cuts to the military? Defense is the only thing that should never be cut, always increased. It's not rational but this is not a rational world. The mere symbolism---even the mere suggestion of defense cuts is just as bad as the cuts themselves. This has always been the case and today we're seeing yet more evidence. I remember telling you guys why I can't support republicans anymore (social issues), but national defense is the reason I can't support Democrats. What's a middle-of-the-road, right-centrist with libertarian leanings to do? It's merely an immediate step within the President's statutory abilities. It would take Congress to reverse the aggressive authorization that underpins the reduction in force. Sent from my DROID RAZR using proboards
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Ukraine
Mar 12, 2014 8:34:27 GMT -8
Post by AlwaysAnAztec on Mar 12, 2014 8:34:27 GMT -8
1. Continue to hate Haters. 2. Right now, Obama IS doing the right thing. Trying to solve the crisis in a diplomatic way. 3. If he is called on to fulfill our obligations then I pray that he will do the right thing. 1. I like the president but I wholeheartedly disagree with his "one love," coffee house, Rastafarian world view. 2. It's morally the right thing but being "moral" when your enemies are amoral isn't smart. It's dangerous. I promise you that "diplomacy" will not sway a guy like Putin even one iota. 3. What do you mean? That you hope he fulfills the "obligation" to conform to the terms of this 1994 treaty? If so I wouldn't hold my breath if I were you. If by "doing the right thing" you mean ignoring this "obligation" or squirming out of it somehow then you're in luck because that's exactly what's gonna happen. I doubt you or anyone else can cite even a single example of a time when "talking it out" with a bully worked better than manning up and kicking the $#!+ outta him. What do YOU suggest that he does right now? Do we position a couple of battle groups in the Black sea? How about invading the Crimea? Maybe nuke Moscow? What? Do you really want a land war with Russia? It might come to that but we've got to do everything possible to prevent it first. Obama has shown that he can be decisive and make hard decisions. You do remember the Osama operation don't you? We technically invaded a foreign country, a nuclear armed one at that, to accomplish that mission.
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Ukraine
Mar 12, 2014 9:16:48 GMT -8
via mobile
Post by azteccc on Mar 12, 2014 9:16:48 GMT -8
How about we void the treaty and give them their nukes back?
Any warhawks care to address the illegality of funding a Ukrainian government that came to power by force and decree?
I assume you all wanted to go to war over the Russian occupation of Georgia, too? Seems Bushie was acting a whole bunch like Obama is now. Seems everything turned out okay.
Should we ignore the Russian population who is both terrified of what is happening with ethnic identity in Kiev and would like to keep ties with Russia? Or does that half of the country not matter?
Do you think this conflict is strengthening Russia? Check their economy since this began. Do you think they have the resources to fight wars on multiple fronts, or even the ability to defend themselves against the US if we really were provoked? If so, you're naive.
Are you scared of the KGB and Russian nukes? This seems like the most likely scenario, but it isn't the Cold War anymore.
What is the difference between American aggression in sovereign countries and Russian aggression in sovereign countries? Are we still so hypocritical as a nation to believe we are the only shining light on the hill, bombing for peace and force feeding our version of "democracy" around the ME and Africa?
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Post by 78aztec82 on Mar 12, 2014 12:35:35 GMT -8
How about we void the treaty and give them their nukes back? Any warhawks care to address the illegality of funding a Ukrainian government that came to power by force and decree? I assume you all wanted to go to war over the Russian occupation of Georgia, too? Seems Bushie was acting a whole bunch like Obama is now. Seems everything turned out okay. Should we ignore the Russian population who is both terrified of what is happening with ethnic identity in Kiev and would like to keep ties with Russia? Or does that half of the country not matter? Do you think this conflict is strengthening Russia? Check their economy since this began. Do you think they have the resources to fight wars on multiple fronts, or even the ability to defend themselves against the US if we really were provoked? If so, you're naive. Are you scared of the KGB and Russian nukes? This seems like the most likely scenario, but it isn't the Cold War anymore. What is the difference between American aggression in sovereign countries and Russian aggression in sovereign countries? Are we still so hypocritical as a nation to believe we are the only shining light on the hill, bombing for peace and force feeding our version of "democracy" around the ME and Africa? Let's stick to the subject at hand although several here said the same thing back in '08 (in ATalk) and it failed then as that currently illegal Russian occupation of a portion of Georgia (South Ossetia) is inarguably a mess, failed, and a huge source of terrorists worldwide. They are still illegally in Abkhazia as we'll. You sound as though you support the invasion of Crimea. You certainly don't argue against it. You then must support the subjugation of the Crimeans to Russian occupation. You ignore that this precedent strengthens Putin to do more. Sent from my DROID RAZR using proboards
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Ukraine
Mar 12, 2014 13:42:09 GMT -8
via mobile
Post by azteccc on Mar 12, 2014 13:42:09 GMT -8
How about we void the treaty and give them their nukes back? Any warhawks care to address the illegality of funding a Ukrainian government that came to power by force and decree? I assume you all wanted to go to war over the Russian occupation of Georgia, too? Seems Bushie was acting a whole bunch like Obama is now. Seems everything turned out okay. Should we ignore the Russian population who is both terrified of what is happening with ethnic identity in Kiev and would like to keep ties with Russia? Or does that half of the country not matter? Do you think this conflict is strengthening Russia? Check their economy since this began. Do you think they have the resources to fight wars on multiple fronts, or even the ability to defend themselves against the US if we really were provoked? If so, you're naive. Are you scared of the KGB and Russian nukes? This seems like the most likely scenario, but it isn't the Cold War anymore. What is the difference between American aggression in sovereign countries and Russian aggression in sovereign countries? Are we still so hypocritical as a nation to believe we are the only shining light on the hill, bombing for peace and force feeding our version of "democracy" around the ME and Africa? Let's stick to the subject at hand although several here said the same thing back in '08 (in ATalk) and it failed then as that currently illegal Russian occupation of a portion of Georgia (South Ossetia) is inarguably a mess, failed, and a huge source of terrorists worldwide. They are still illegally in Abkhazia as we'll. You sound as though you support the invasion of Crimea. You certainly don't argue against it. You then must support the subjugation of the Crimeans to Russian occupation. You ignore that this precedent strengthens Putin to do more. Sent from my DROID RAZR using proboards I think every word on my last post was on subject - of this thread if nothing else. I have not been following this as closely as I should (don't think it is a huge deal, at least less of a deal than most of you do)... My understanding is that Crimea is overwhelmingly Russian and would like to distance themselves from Kiev. Can you provide evidence to the contrary?
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Post by 78aztec82 on Mar 12, 2014 18:05:20 GMT -8
Let's stick to the subject at hand although several here said the same thing back in '08 (in ATalk) and it failed then as that currently illegal Russian occupation of a portion of Georgia (South Ossetia) is inarguably a mess, failed, and a huge source of terrorists worldwide. They are still illegally in Abkhazia as we'll. You sound as though you support the invasion of Crimea. You certainly don't argue against it. You then must support the subjugation of the Crimeans to Russian occupation. You ignore that this precedent strengthens Putin to do more. Sent from my DROID RAZR using proboards I think every word on my last post was on subject - of this thread if nothing else. I have not been following this as closely as I should (don't think it is a huge deal, at least less of a deal than most of you do)... My understanding is that Crimea is overwhelmingly Russian and would like to distance themselves from Kiev. Can you provide evidence to the contrary? Parts of Southern California, Arizona, NM, and Texas are overwhelmingly Mexican, should they have a say in what country governs those areas? Stalin was the one who populated Crimea with Russians, is that all it takes to establish the region for Putin in your mind and makes all this ok? What about the ethnic Crimeans and Tartars who this ancestral homeland actually belongs to, not Russians. Do they matter? Sent from my DROID RAZR using proboards
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Ukraine
Mar 13, 2014 22:56:36 GMT -8
Post by AztecWilliam on Mar 13, 2014 22:56:36 GMT -8
Let's stick to the subject at hand although several here said the same thing back in '08 (in ATalk) and it failed then as that currently illegal Russian occupation of a portion of Georgia (South Ossetia) is inarguably a mess, failed, and a huge source of terrorists worldwide. They are still illegally in Abkhazia as we'll. You sound as though you support the invasion of Crimea. You certainly don't argue against it. You then must support the subjugation of the Crimeans to Russian occupation. You ignore that this precedent strengthens Putin to do more. Sent from my DROID RAZR using proboards I think every word on my last post was on subject - of this thread if nothing else. I have not been following this as closely as I should (don't think it is a huge deal, at least less of a deal than most of you do)... My understanding is that Crimea is overwhelmingly Russian and would like to distance themselves from Kiev. Can you provide evidence to the contrary? Yes, and the Crimea was Russian for many years before 1954. But there is a wild card in the equation. Something like 300,000 Tatars (sometimes referred to as Tartars), have returned to the Crimea. They were once a major population there, but Stalin (a la Andy Jackson) forced them to move to central Asia is World War II. From what I have read, they are not eager to become Russians and may make life difficult there if, as is likely, Crimea joins the Russians. AzWm
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Post by 78aztec82 on Mar 14, 2014 0:59:06 GMT -8
The Russian referendum to possibly be held this weekend will be an unconditional farce.
Sent from my DROID RAZR using proboards
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Ukraine
Mar 14, 2014 8:09:52 GMT -8
Post by AlwaysAnAztec on Mar 14, 2014 8:09:52 GMT -8
The Russian referendum to possibly be held this weekend will be an unconditional farce. Sent from my DROID RAZR using proboards Yup. It will ask whether they should form a new country or join the Russian Federation. Left out was the choice of staying with Ukraine. Sounds like a "normal" Russian election.
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Ukraine
Mar 17, 2014 7:16:01 GMT -8
Post by 78aztec82 on Mar 17, 2014 7:16:01 GMT -8
The Russian referendum to possibly be held this weekend will be an unconditional farce. Sent from my DROID RAZR using proboards Yup. It will ask whether they should form a new country or join the Russian Federation. Left out was the choice of staying with Ukraine. Sounds like a "normal" Russian election. No worries, Russian troops wearing masks and accompanied by armored vehicles ensured complete security of the polling stations while 80,000 troops massed on the border. Nothing going on here people, just peaceful democracy in action! So happy to see the results were akin to Kim Jung Eun's reelection this past week. I love when all the people agree, it's so harmonious and gives me pause that the future of the world is assured!
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Ukraine
Mar 17, 2014 11:41:32 GMT -8
Post by aztecwin on Mar 17, 2014 11:41:32 GMT -8
Yup. It will ask whether they should form a new country or join the Russian Federation. Left out was the choice of staying with Ukraine. Sounds like a "normal" Russian election. No worries, Russian troops wearing masks and accompanied by armored vehicles ensured complete security of the polling stations while 80,000 troops massed on the border. Nothing going on here people, just peaceful democracy in action! So happy to see the results were akin to Kim Jung Eun's reelection this past week. I love when all the people agree, it's so harmonious and gives me pause that the future of the world is assured! Tarters and non ethnic Russians boycotted the vote. Don't know what anyone can do, but I am sure our Pres and Sec of State will do nothing of note.
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Post by 78aztec82 on Mar 18, 2014 2:42:39 GMT -8
Done deal. Now what?
Biden is now traveling to the capitals of the former Soviet client states to address them that we're behind them!
Whew!
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