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Ukraine
Feb 27, 2014 7:52:16 GMT -8
Post by aztec70 on Feb 27, 2014 7:52:16 GMT -8
So what is going to happen there? Is Russia going to set back and await developments? Their Black Sea fleet is based in the southern part of Ukraine. I see that Russia is gearing up for a major military exercise east of Ukraine. It would not surprise me to see Russia invade. The popularion of Crimea, and eastern Ukraine is majority ethnic Russian and would probably not be unhappy to be part of Russia again.
Who else has an opinion?
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Ukraine
Feb 27, 2014 9:25:36 GMT -8
Post by AlwaysAnAztec on Feb 27, 2014 9:25:36 GMT -8
I could see some sort of partial invasion of the Crimea by Russia to 'protect' the ethnic Russians. It probably would be the best for everyone for Ukraine to give up that portion of their country to Russia. Russia will NEVER give up their naval base and I see that as a problem between the two countries down the road.
Now if Russia tried invading the entire country to re-install Yanukovych as president, all hell would break loose.
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Ukraine
Feb 27, 2014 17:44:42 GMT -8
Post by AztecWilliam on Feb 27, 2014 17:44:42 GMT -8
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Ukraine
Feb 27, 2014 23:20:09 GMT -8
Post by AztecWilliam on Feb 27, 2014 23:20:09 GMT -8
What happens in Ukraine does not stay in Ukraine. Okay, that is not original, but it's true. This is a really big deal, despite our Sec. of State's attempt to downplay the situation. In 2009, Pres. Obama just stood aside and did nothing, not even rhetorically, to support the Iranian uprising. Result? Iran became completely convinced that Obama was a paper tiger. And the Mullahs murdered plenty of people who carried signs begging the U.S. to so something . . . anything. Not our proudest moment. What should we do re: Ukraine? Well, we should not mobilize the 82nd Airborne, that's for sure. However, there are things we could do to help keep Ukraine an independent nation looking toward the West as it's best hope for the future rather than bend to Russian desires to make it the monkey to Putin's organ grinder. Here are some more ideas. www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/charles-krauthammer-putins-ukraine-gambit/2014/02/27/93ca1b26-9fe0-11e3-9ba6-800d1192d08b_story.htmlAzWm
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Ukraine
Feb 27, 2014 23:34:06 GMT -8
Post by AztecWilliam on Feb 27, 2014 23:34:06 GMT -8
Here's a further thought on the Ukrainian situation. Let's say that western Europe and the U.S. dither while Putin sends his army into Ukraine (reminiscent of the Soviet occupation of Czechoslovakia in 1968). What effect would that have on world affairs? My guess is that it would solidify the impression, one that appears to be virtually universal, that Barrack Obama is virtually paralyzed when crises occur. Well, at least those who think that we have been throwing our weight around too much since l945 ought to be pleased.
Putin is a thug and a murderer. There are plenty of those, many sitting in U.S. prisons right now. But none of them leads the largest nation (geographically) in the world, one that is armed with lots of nuclear missiles and has an outsized desire to dominate neighboring states.
As for invading, I pray that Putin will not go that far. But if you read the points made in the Krauthammer piece you will realize that there is plenty Putin can do without arms to crush the new Ukrainian government. The man, like Hitler, thinks his opponents (i.e., Europe and the U.S.) are pretty much unwilling to stand up to anybody. He may decide that this is his chance to grab the brass ring. If he does and pays no price for his action, we will not have heard the last of such events. Or, maybe he will think this through enough to realize that a prolonged civil war in Ukraine is not in Russia's best interests. Maybe.
AzWm
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Ukraine
Feb 28, 2014 7:41:00 GMT -8
via mobile
Post by azteccc on Feb 28, 2014 7:41:00 GMT -8
Post #4. Post #2 by a rightie.
Thats how long it took to try and divert the argument into a criticism of President Obama. I personally had the over, so good job on this one William you proved me wrong.
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Ukraine
Feb 28, 2014 8:05:11 GMT -8
Post by aztecwin on Feb 28, 2014 8:05:11 GMT -8
Post #4. Post #2 by a rightie. Thats how long it took to try and divert the argument into a criticism of President Obama. I personally had the over, so good job on this one William you proved me wrong. It is kind of hard to change this to being about Obama when he is weak and uninformed as well as only marginally engaged. It does not appear to me that we are even any part of the real equation with the present Administration and State Department. You can't fault Obama for something he is playing no real part in.
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Ukraine
Feb 28, 2014 8:19:37 GMT -8
Post by aztec70 on Feb 28, 2014 8:19:37 GMT -8
Krauthammer wants to throw money at the crisis and wave the flag by sending a fleet into the Black Sea. We are aware are we not that Ukraine was part of Russia when we became a country? It is not like they are not related. At one time Ukraine was the Duchy of Rus. Ukraine has been ruled by other countrys for a thousand years. Who knew that it was ruled by Lithuania for several hundred years? Poland and Russia partitioned it between themselves after that. They used the Dnieper River as the line between them.
Russia has 150,000 troops on the border, and most of the people in Ukraine along there speak Russian. If Putin wants to invade we can do nothing to stop it. Lots of Ukrainian citizens would be happy to have Russian passports again.
My suggestion would for to cut Ukraine to cut a deal. Sell Crimea back to Russia for whatever the national debt of Ukraine is. Russia get their warm sea port and Ukraine gets a fresh start.
Here a little history quiz for the history buff, William. Where was the Charge of the Light Brigade?
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Post by azteccc on Feb 28, 2014 8:20:10 GMT -8
Post #4. Post #2 by a rightie. Thats how long it took to try and divert the argument into a criticism of President Obama. I personally had the over, so good job on this one William you proved me wrong. It is kind of hard to change this to being about Obama when he is weak and uninformed as well as only marginally engaged. It does not appear to me that we are even any part of the real equation with the present Administration and State Department. You can't fault Obama for something he is playing no real part in. Tell that to your buddy, he went there by post number four (though, that IS his MO). As an aside, Obama is "weak and uninformed, [and] marginally engaged"? Yet, he was able to subvert the entire US Government by forging a birth certificate while planning his ascent to the Presidency decades in advance, and is systematically turning our country into a socialist, Marxist utopia in true Machiavellian form while only a select few (ie you) notice? Hmm.
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Ukraine
Feb 28, 2014 8:22:21 GMT -8
Post by aztec70 on Feb 28, 2014 8:22:21 GMT -8
It is kind of hard to change this to being about Obama when he is weak and uninformed as well as only marginally engaged. It does not appear to me that we are even any part of the real equation with the present Administration and State Department. You can't fault Obama for something he is playing no real part in. Tell that to your buddy, he went there by post number four (though, that IS his MO). As an aside, Obama is "weak and uninformed, [and] marginally engaged"? Yet, he was able to subvert the entire US Government by forging a birth certificate while planning his ascent to the Presidency decades in advance, and is systematically turning our country into a socialist, Marxist utopia in true Machiavellian form while only a select few (ie you) notice? Hmm. Zing.
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Ukraine
Feb 28, 2014 9:17:12 GMT -8
Post by AlwaysAnAztec on Feb 28, 2014 9:17:12 GMT -8
I've already posted on what I think might happen.
It doesn't matter what Obama does or doesn't do. He'll still receive hell from the hypocritical 'righties' on this board.
Haters will always continue to hate.
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Post by 78aztec82 on Feb 28, 2014 9:34:59 GMT -8
This isn't a situation for military intervention.
This is one that will require the full spectrum of soft power and diplomatic tools.
Sadly we don't have those types of hard nosed diplomatic negotiators around anymore. We are way too sensitive and forgiving, or in some parlance, "understanding."
Our government will make speeches, hold back some project or other monetary issue, or make some substantial (token) effort.
In the end it will be up to the Ukrainian people to solve their own problem on their own, without our assistance.
I hope Putin doesn't do it but I expect he will.
Sent from my DROID RAZR using proboards
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Ukraine
Feb 28, 2014 10:30:35 GMT -8
via mobile
Post by azteccc on Feb 28, 2014 10:30:35 GMT -8
This isn't a situation for military intervention. This is one that will require the full spectrum of soft power and diplomatic tools. Sadly we don't have those types of hard nosed diplomatic negotiators around anymore. We are way too sensitive and forgiving, or in some parlance, "understanding." Our government will make speeches, hold back some project or other monetary issue, or make some substantial (token) effort. In the end it will be up to the Ukrainian people to solve their own problem on their own, without our assistance. I hope Putin doesn't do it but I expect he will. Sent from my DROID RAZR using proboards Do you really think that US "soft power" hasn't already played a major role in effectively ousting the Russian-backed parts of the govt? I think that's naive.
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Post by AztecWilliam on Feb 28, 2014 12:09:49 GMT -8
Krauthammer wants to throw money at the crisis and wave the flag by sending a fleet into the Black Sea. We are aware are we not that Ukraine was part of Russia when we became a country? It is not like they are not related. At one time Ukraine was the Duchy of Rus. Ukraine has been ruled by other countrys for a thousand years. Who knew that it was ruled by Lithuania for several hundred years? Poland and Russia partitioned it between themselves after that. They used the Dnieper River as the line between them. Russia has 150,000 troops on the border, and most of the people in Ukraine along there speak Russian. If Putin wants to invade we can do nothing to stop it. Lots of Ukrainian citizens would be happy to have Russian passports again. My suggestion would for to cut Ukraine to cut a deal. Sell Crimea back to Russia for whatever the national debt of Ukraine is. Russia get their warm sea port and Ukraine gets a fresh start. Here a little history quiz for the history buff, William. Where was the Charge of the Light Brigade? Balaclava, southeast of Sevastopol, 1854. I had to look up the geographical reference only. Hell, I had to memorize "The Charge of the Light Brigade" at Wilshire Junior High in Fullerton in 1955. (Question to you: Why was it called the Light Brigade?) Sending ships to the Black Sea might or might not be a good idea. Sending the new government in Ukraine lots of money would, in my opinion, be a very good idea. It would be refreshing to see the Euros get off their asses and actually do something positive in a crisis. Especially one that involves Europe. Giving Putin a black eye right now would be constructive. On the other hand, if he were able to reconquer Ukraine, whether militarily or by extortion, who would be next? Estonia, Lithuania, and Latvia? Belarus? Ukraine does have a complicated history, but reabsorption by Russia would not be in that country's or our best interest. AzWm
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Ukraine
Feb 28, 2014 13:07:49 GMT -8
Post by AlwaysAnAztec on Feb 28, 2014 13:07:49 GMT -8
A "Light Brigade" is a brigade of lancers on horseback without armor. "Heavy Horse" would be lancers wearing armor.
Correct?
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Post by 78aztec82 on Feb 28, 2014 13:37:50 GMT -8
SqTY This isn't a situation for military intervention. This is one that will require the full spectrum of soft power and diplomatic tools. Sadly we don't have those types of hard nosed diplomatic negotiators around anymore. We are way too sensitive and forgiving, or in some parlance, "understanding." Our government will make speeches, hold back some project or other monetary issue, or make some substantial (token) effort. In the end it will be up to the Ukrainian people to solve their own problem on their own, without our assistance. I hope Putin doesn't do it but I expect he will. Sent from my DROID RAZR using proboards Do you really think that US "soft power" hasn't already played a major role in effectively ousting the Russian-backed parts of the govt? I think that's naive. I was responding to the OP. As for the US playing a "major" role, that is a bit dramatic. That Western-focused Ukranian interests have strong ties to European interests underpinning their strength is more accurate. Edit: just found this, interesting. From today. cyprus-mail.com/2014/02/28/military-airport-in-ukraines-crimea-taken-over-by-russian-soldiers-interfax/It kind of foretells AAAs scenario and discusses European efforts. We'll see... Stay tuned.. We (US) did make a couple calls and got some assurances though... Sent from my DROID RAZR using proboards
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Ukraine
Feb 28, 2014 15:30:50 GMT -8
Post by aztec70 on Feb 28, 2014 15:30:50 GMT -8
William, because they were not heavy cavalry. Light cavalry was for scouting, heavy for attacking.
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Ukraine
Feb 28, 2014 15:34:21 GMT -8
Post by aztec70 on Feb 28, 2014 15:34:21 GMT -8
A "Light Brigade" is a brigade of lancers on horseback without armor. "Heavy Horse" would be lancers wearing armor. Correct? I would say yes.
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Ukraine
Feb 28, 2014 15:51:24 GMT -8
Post by davdesid on Feb 28, 2014 15:51:24 GMT -8
A "Light Brigade" is a brigade of lancers on horseback without armor. "Heavy Horse" would be lancers wearing armor. Correct? I would say yes. The Heavys generally had larger horses too. The Lights had the smaller faster ones. Anyway, the senior British officers at that fiasco were incompetent political appointees who bought their commissions from the Crown. Lord Cardigan paid 35K pounds for his commission. The only competent commander on the field that day was George Mayow. www.badassoftheweek.com/mayow.html
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Ukraine
Feb 28, 2014 16:13:39 GMT -8
Post by aztec70 on Feb 28, 2014 16:13:39 GMT -8
The Heavys generally had larger horses too. The Lights had the smaller faster ones. Anyway, the senior British officers at that fiasco were incompetent political appointees who bought their commissions from the Crown. Lord Cardigan paid 35K pounds for his commission. The only competent commander on the field that day was George Mayow. www.badassoftheweek.com/mayow.htmlTrue. If the rider and the horse are armored, the horse had better be big and heavy.
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