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Post by 78aztec82 on Mar 3, 2014 22:44:53 GMT -8
This is what I was worried about. What are we going to do about it? An unbridled Russia acting on the Soviet expansion model is scary. Our leadership need to step up and start exhibiting some courage on this issue. Sent from my DROID RAZR using proboards
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Ukraine
Mar 3, 2014 22:46:28 GMT -8
Post by aztec70 on Mar 3, 2014 22:46:28 GMT -8
Lord, really? I saw that and didn't want to even bother. It was so ridiculous it wasn't worth commenting. No one else bothered either, if you noticed. If I may, you want to reward the invasion by handing over the Ukrainians and their homes with all the others in Crimea for a few duckets? That's like Mexico crossing the border then selling off San Diego south of I-8 instead of fighting them off. So that's all Putin has to do for each phase, right? It's like pre-buying real estate. Nice game, not sure why I even played. Let's see what kind of substantive, comprehensive, real solution you have. Sent from my DROID RAZR using proboards You few duckets? What a foolish statement. Trade their national debt for an autonomous province that they can not hold? Good deal, you betcha.
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Post by aztecwin on Mar 4, 2014 5:05:53 GMT -8
A new bold move by Obama. He is going to un-friend Putin on Facebook.
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Post by 78aztec82 on Mar 4, 2014 6:22:06 GMT -8
Lord, really? I saw that and didn't want to even bother. It was so ridiculous it wasn't worth commenting. No one else bothered either, if you noticed. If I may, you want to reward the invasion by handing over the Ukrainians and their homes with all the others in Crimea for a few duckets? That's like Mexico crossing the border then selling off San Diego south of I-8 instead of fighting them off. So that's all Putin has to do for each phase, right? It's like pre-buying real estate. Nice game, not sure why I even played. Let's see what kind of substantive, comprehensive, real solution you have. Sent from my DROID RAZR using proboards You few duckets? What a foolish statement. Trade their national debt for an autonomous province that they can not hold? Good deal, you betcha. You get the point. Thanks for playing.
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Post by aztec70 on Mar 4, 2014 8:42:21 GMT -8
Whatever.
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Post by AlwaysAnAztec on Mar 4, 2014 9:29:50 GMT -8
OK. Another prediction.
The Crimea contains Russia's ONLY warm water port and naval base. They have owned or controlled the Crimea since the time of Peter the Great and are not going to ever give it up. With the instability in Ukraine and the sudden and dramatic replacement of the democratically elected, pro-Russian, president they really didn't have any choice but to reassert their dominance on the peninsula. Unless there is a sudden change of heart, or a much larger incursion into the Ukraine, I don't see the Europeans doing much in the way of sanctions against Russia.
I think that Aztec70 is right in that the best result for Ukraine is for Russia to pay them off for the Crimea and let everyone go their own way. I believe this will be the final outcome.
As I said before though, if Putin decides to take more of the Ukraine then, "Katie bar the door".
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Post by 78aztec82 on Mar 4, 2014 11:17:56 GMT -8
Russia created the instability.
Their reward is to keep this strategic port region?
That would be a huge mistake by the international community to let that happen and would embolden Putin to then reach for your worst scenario.
Chamberlainian in all facets, IMO.
The silence by the US is worrisome. The silence by the European leadership is equally troubling.
Perhaps I am missing all of the US response, which is possible as I am recovering from surgery and we just had a nasty ice and snow storm here. I pray to the Lord that I missed something but if this doesn't worry you, it should.
Sent from my DROID RAZR using proboards
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Post by 78aztec82 on Mar 4, 2014 11:35:15 GMT -8
Interesting irony. We are playing Ukraine tomorrow in a soccer match, an international friendly. The quotes in the article discussing the game are self-evident and worth reflecting upon. The message transcends the game and echos a larger one. Here is a little snippet from the Reuters report on the game: KIEV (Reuters) - Ukraine's soccer friendly against the United States on Wednesday in Cyprus will be played under the slogan "Peace for Ukraine!," the Football Federation of Ukraine said on its website on Tuesday.
Federation president Anatoliy Konkov earlier said Ukraine had changed its mind about cancelling the match as a sign of respect for the United States.
"After announcing our intention to cancel the flight to Cyprus for a friendly against the U.S. soccer team and with regard to the military aggression of Russian Federation in Ukraine's autonomous region of Crimea, I received numerous phone calls from public and football representatives who expressed various views on this decision," Konkov said.
"As a result we arrived on a common idea we should play the scheduled friendly with U.S. soccer team as they represent the country that stood up to defend our national interests and territorial integrity of Ukraine," Konkov said.
"This is a very important decision to raise the patriotic spirit of the Ukrainian people. It must unite the country and show the whole world how high our flag waves and how proudly sounds the anthem of the independent state."mobile.reuters.com/article/idUSBREA2228120140304?irpc=932Sent from my DROID RAZR using proboards
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Ukraine
Mar 4, 2014 12:14:11 GMT -8
Post by bearfoot on Mar 4, 2014 12:14:11 GMT -8
This is what I was worried about. What are we going to do about it? An unbridled Russia acting on the Soviet expansion model is scary. Our leadership need to step up and start exhibiting some courage on this issue. Sent from my DROID RAZR using proboards This is what many of us are worried about. is Poland next? How about the Low Countries?
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Post by aztec70 on Mar 4, 2014 12:49:26 GMT -8
This is what I was worried about. What are we going to do about it? An unbridled Russia acting on the Soviet expansion model is scary. Our leadership need to step up and start exhibiting some courage on this issue. Sent from my DROID RAZR using proboards This is what many of us are worried about. is Poland next? How about the Low Countries? I doubt that Belgium and Netherlands are very concerned. The Baltic states, perhaps so.
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Ukraine
Mar 4, 2014 17:05:54 GMT -8
Post by aztec70 on Mar 4, 2014 17:05:54 GMT -8
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Ukraine
Mar 4, 2014 22:42:52 GMT -8
Post by bearfoot on Mar 4, 2014 22:42:52 GMT -8
Perhaps in all of this, the US will finally start selling LNG to Europe.
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Post by aztec70 on Mar 5, 2014 9:29:02 GMT -8
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Ukraine
Mar 5, 2014 10:51:30 GMT -8
Post by azson on Mar 5, 2014 10:51:30 GMT -8
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Ukraine
Mar 5, 2014 11:37:46 GMT -8
Post by aztec70 on Mar 5, 2014 11:37:46 GMT -8
Thanks for the link. Very informative.
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Ukraine
Mar 5, 2014 13:50:38 GMT -8
Post by AlwaysAnAztec on Mar 5, 2014 13:50:38 GMT -8
Very informative. Maybe Obama knows more about foreign policy and diplomacy than the 'righties' on this board think he does.
This is not the cold war anymore.
On a side note. I agree with Stu that we should reconsider our cuts in Military spending especially with the news that China is increasing theirs. That doesn't mean that there isn't waste and fraud that could be eliminated.
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Post by 78aztec82 on Mar 5, 2014 14:39:15 GMT -8
1- I guess I missed the claims about the Ukraine government. Once they ridded themselves of Yanukovich through legitimate parliamentary action, the interim government has been responsible and measured in all actions I've seen, to include how they communicated their reminder about the defense treaty with us and the EU. 2- Ukraine is a country with ethnic Ukrainians in all parts, living with ethnic Russians in may areas as well, some who were put their by Stalin for strategic purposes. An ethnographic map rather than a political one would look very different. Think of the difference between the US state-by-state post-election red/blue map vs the county-by-county map, quite different. That negates ridiculous ideas about selling territory for peace (ignoring the fact that Russia doesn't have any substantial cash reserves nor could afford to forgive debt) as the lands we are talking about are key locations to Ukraine and contain ethnic Ukrainians and other traditional groups like Crimean Tartars. The country is divided only at the enclave level, not regionally. 3- I've had a chance to work with Ukrainian military. They are highly trained professionals and take their professionalism seriously. Russians likewise have a corps of highly trained professionals as well but also a high number of very poorly disciplined soldiers as well. Their special forces are very effective and alone could cause a lot of damage. I still think that despite what is going on in other areas, Russia poses a threat. Look what they've done here in Crimea with few forces. Don't think they coif do that in other former client countries of the old USSR. 4-Forbes.com even admits Putin may be unstable yet the Russians elected him again. I don't know what their definition is of "upper hand" but he is definitely running thus show and that there are enough linked articles here in this thread to show that European leaders and national security analysts are worried that he will continue to look for opportunities like this regardless of the price. He hasn't had any substantive push back by us or the West and his only foe may be the markets. 5-Mitt wasn't wrong as per my above. Our interests lie in the friendships and allies we've gained in the former Soviet client states like Ukraine, Estonia, etc. Their continued free democracies are key to world stability and economic growth as opposed to places like Chechnya, South Ossetia, etc that breed instability. These areas were taken over by Putin. Ugly. Mitt could have (or might have but unreported) that China and Iran were also our future threats/foes. My take is that was a cereal-box analogy by Forbes to please their like-minded readers rather than conduct serious analysis. Sent from my DROID RAZR using proboards
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Post by 78aztec82 on Mar 5, 2014 14:48:05 GMT -8
Very informative. Maybe Obama knows more about foreign policy and diplomacy than the 'righties' on this board think he does. This is not the cold war anymore. On a side note. I agree with Stu that we should reconsider our cuts in Military spending especially with the news that China is increasing theirs. That doesn't mean that there isn't waste and fraud that could be eliminated. Thanks AAA. I don't see it as cold war but as new normal. Permit Putin to keep This part of Crimea and he may bee emboldened to do this again. There are several excellent articles linked in this thread that warm or are worried about Putin's plans that should be read. Sent from my DROID RAZR using proboards
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Ukraine
Mar 5, 2014 17:55:24 GMT -8
Post by AztecWilliam on Mar 5, 2014 17:55:24 GMT -8
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Post by 78aztec82 on Mar 5, 2014 18:53:53 GMT -8
The silence by the US is worrisome. The silence by the European leadership is equally troubling. We aren't gonna do anything, so why should Obama threaten consequences? Everyone knows he wouldn't follow through anyway. Been there, done that. That's why the bad guys (yes they still exist) regard him as a joke. Besides, sanctions and "diplomacy" don't move guys like Putin any more than they did Saddam, Al-Qaeda, Hitler, and the like. In areas of foreign policy, these guys especially Kerry are living in a fantasy world comprised of "mediation," "tolerance," and any number of other meaningless abstractions. It's like watching a lesson on "fair play" on Sesame Street or Mister Rogers. I remember a group called "Beyond War." A family friend took me to a meeting when I was about fifteen. The entire premise of the group's existence was that war was obsolete, that it doesn't exist, that the world is "beyond" it. I hurt some old lady's feelings because I laughed out loud a couple times and I asked whether the Ayatollah Khomeni had gotten the memo. I agree with your analysis. As an FYI, Obama did threaten Putin with unspecified "consequences" but without red lines and specific sanction, Putin is free to do anything without worry, as you accurately assessed. As for those like your "beyond war" friends, they don't realize humans aren't logical or all enlightened, there are bad people in the world that pray on sheep, do they? Glad you stood up to them! Sent from my DROID RAZR using proboards
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