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Post by uwphoto on Jun 21, 2021 18:19:03 GMT -8
What we need is an educational system that encourages our youth to look at every fellow citizen as an individual. Period. Of course there is still discrimination and hatred in this, and every, society. But the worst thing we could do is to tell young people that one's skin color and facial features are the most important aspects of their humanity. What I find interesting is that some folks believe that this society is bedeviled by white supremacy. At the same time, they also believe that it can only to saved by the actions of white politicians. No one, no matter what one's situation in life, should count on the government to rescue them. Yes, government has a role to play. The Civil Rights Act of 1964 is a prime example. (As an aside, if might be well to remember that it was Republican votes in Congress that defeated the outright racist Democrats who opposed that legislation.) My advice to a young person, of whatever ethnic group, is to concentrate on those things under your control. The government can only do so much. No matter how much the societal deck is stacked against a person, you must make decisions that will make your success more likely. The many African Americans (not to mention other minorities) who have succeeded attest to that. And, I might add, there are plenty of "white" people who have not ended up in a good place. It's a tough world. Reject all claims that certain political systems will bring about a utopian America for all. And, at the same time, keep in mind how much better this country is than what it was 50 or 100 years ago. Reject anyone who claims that we are as bad a society as was the case in 1950. As a person who was going to grade school in the 1940s, I can assure you that America in 2021 is a far better place than it was in 1950. Still imperfect, but generally on the right track. AzWm "Republican votes in Congress that defeated the outright racist Democrats". Wow, remember the Rambler? great car. Remember Petula Clark? Dial phones? William most people posting here don't even know what I'm talking about cause they aren't f****** old as dirt...like us. The racists and racist groups are in one camp today, and its the Republican party. David Duke brags about voting for trump..know who he is? Proud Boys? white supremacists? good old boy rednecks? all in one camp. |
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Post by azson on Jun 22, 2021 8:07:04 GMT -8
What we need is an educational system that encourages our youth to look at every fellow citizen as an individual. Period. Of course there is still discrimination and hatred in this, and every, society. But the worst thing we could do is to tell young people that one's skin color and facial features are the most important aspects of their humanity. What I find interesting is that some folks believe that this society is bedeviled by white supremacy. At the same time, they also believe that it can only to saved by the actions of white politicians. No one, no matter what one's situation in life, should count on the government to rescue them. Yes, government has a role to play. The Civil Rights Act of 1964 is a prime example. (As an aside, if might be well to remember that it was Republican votes in Congress that defeated the outright racist Democrats who opposed that legislation.) My advice to a young person, of whatever ethnic group, is to concentrate on those things under your control. The government can only do so much. No matter how much the societal deck is stacked against a person, you must make decisions that will make your success more likely. The many African Americans (not to mention other minorities) who have succeeded attest to that. And, I might add, there are plenty of "white" people who have not ended up in a good place. It's a tough world. Reject all claims that certain political systems will bring about a utopian America for all. And, at the same time, keep in mind how much better this country is than what it was 50 or 100 years ago. Reject anyone who claims that we are as bad a society as was the case in 1950. As a person who was going to grade school in the 1940s, I can assure you that America in 2021 is a far better place than it was in 1950. Still imperfect, but generally on the right track.AzWm Rejecting was done this past election by 81M+ voters, it was a rejection of a president who wanted nothing more than to return us to the 1950s. Or did you not get what "MAGA" really meant? |
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Post by ptsdthor on Jun 22, 2021 8:30:09 GMT -8
What we need is an educational system that encourages our youth to look at every fellow citizen as an individual. Period. Of course there is still discrimination and hatred in this, and every, society. But the worst thing we could do is to tell young people that one's skin color and facial features are the most important aspects of their humanity. What I find interesting is that some folks believe that this society is bedeviled by white supremacy. At the same time, they also believe that it can only to saved by the actions of white politicians. No one, no matter what one's situation in life, should count on the government to rescue them. Yes, government has a role to play. The Civil Rights Act of 1964 is a prime example. (As an aside, if might be well to remember that it was Republican votes in Congress that defeated the outright racist Democrats who opposed that legislation.) My advice to a young person, of whatever ethnic group, is to concentrate on those things under your control. The government can only do so much. No matter how much the societal deck is stacked against a person, you must make decisions that will make your success more likely. The many African Americans (not to mention other minorities) who have succeeded attest to that. And, I might add, there are plenty of "white" people who have not ended up in a good place. It's a tough world. Reject all claims that certain political systems will bring about a utopian America for all. And, at the same time, keep in mind how much better this country is than what it was 50 or 100 years ago. Reject anyone who claims that we are as bad a society as was the case in 1950. As a person who was going to grade school in the 1940s, I can assure you that America in 2021 is a far better place than it was in 1950. Still imperfect, but generally on the right track. AzWm "Republican votes in Congress that defeated the outright racist Democrats". Wow, remember the Rambler? great car. Remember Petula Clark? Dial phones? William most people posting here don't even know what I'm talking about cause they aren't f****** old as dirt...like us. The racists and racist groups are in one camp today, and its the Republican party. David Duke brags about voting for trump..know who he is? Proud Boys? white supremacists? good old boy rednecks? all in one camp. Yet some in here feel that it is OK to hate and blame the innocent believing that the villians are "..ALL whites name...born and unborn...". Can you conceive of a more hateful, bigoted and racist notion? Some say that there is little distinction between a good "white" and bad "white". What decade does that blanket racial hatred come from? Then there are those that have clearly rejected the color blind notions of MLK. All in one party and one camp indeed. I am encouraged, however, that the left leaning state of California clearly rejected the racism inspired Prop 16 (endorsed, of course, by the who's who of the Democrat party). |
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Post by aztecryan on Jun 22, 2021 9:12:27 GMT -8
"Republican votes in Congress that defeated the outright racist Democrats". Wow, remember the Rambler? great car. Remember Petula Clark? Dial phones? William most people posting here don't even know what I'm talking about cause they aren't f****** old as dirt...like us. The racists and racist groups are in one camp today, and its the Republican party. David Duke brags about voting for trump..know who he is? Proud Boys? white supremacists? good old boy rednecks? all in one camp. Yet some in here feel that it is OK to hate and blame the innocent believing that the villians are "..ALL whites name...born and unborn...". Can you conceive of a more hateful, bigoted and racist notion? Some say that there is little distinction between a good "white" and bad "white". What decade does that blanket racial hatred come from? Then there are those that have clearly rejected the color blind notions of MLK. All in one party and one camp indeed. I am encouraged, however, that the left leaning state of California clearly rejected the racism inspired Prop 16 (endorsed, of course, by the who's who of the Democrat party). This is just stupid levels of pandering. |
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Post by AztecWilliam on Jun 22, 2021 10:08:12 GMT -8
Nothing has changed since 1950? Seriously? In which country were you living in 1950? Are you seriously suggesting that the situation for minorities is no different today from what it was in 1950? If so, I must tell you that such a contention is totally absurd.
In 1950, blacks were still being lynched. In the South, blacks still had to drink out of separate fountains. They had to attend segregated schools that were of poor quality. They had a very hard time voting. In just about any aspect of life you wish to consider, blacks and other minorities had to deal with barriers that European Americans did not face.
I cannot remember at any time teachers or my elders were telling me that race relations did not need to be improved. I certainly do not remember any of them moaning over the end of slavery or segregation. Of course, I was living in California, not the South.
The question is not whether there is still prejudice in America. The question is what should we do about it? My belief is that there is only so much the government can do. It is up to all of us to continue the work of Martin Luther King, Jr., whose goal was to reach a time in which the color of our skin and our facial features were not what determined what other people think of us.
AzWm
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Post by AztecWilliam on Jun 22, 2021 10:35:26 GMT -8
“You are white, therefore, you are a racist.” “No, I’m not.” “That’s precisely what a fragile white racist would say.” See the circular logic and the Kafka Trap. Our Asian minorities deal with the same societal realties as does every other minority in the US yet they seemingly see opportunity, the rule of law, freedoms to pursue happiness and say to all "Here, hold my beer!" and are collectively doing better than the presumed and accused White overlords. Exceptions disprove the rule. But, of course, to disagree with the "elect" that our society is systemically racist means that you are a racist. See again the circular logic and the Kafka Trap  Yep, Asian Americans are pretty smart..thats why they voted against trump 63% to 31%. Wanna bet they don't buy the insurrection was "deep state" or was an inside job pushed by the FBI..as pushed by the trust baby from La Jolla Country Day. What do they know that you don't?? roll eyes. May I point out that for whom Asians voted in no way answers thor's point. His contention is that Asians have faced very serious societal barriers, arguably barriers similar to those faced by African Americans. I would especially point to the Boat People, most of whom arrived here several decades ago without even speaking English. Yet in general they have done pretty in well despite of the language and cultural handicaps they have faced. The point is this. Most of use face challenges as we grow up. Some people come from broken homes in which the parents have done little to prepare them for the adult world. Some have learning or physical handicaps. And, of course, minority Americans face additional handicaps that I never had to face. But whatever situation one finds him or herself in, it is possible to succeed. We need to encourage our youth, no matter of what demographic group, to concentrate of those things that they have the power to change. How about getting an education? How about not starting families until one is capable of taking on such a responsibility? The many minority Americans who have done well attest to the fact that it can be done. As I have said before, the government can do some things that help minorities (and by extension, all Americans), but it cannot by fiat erase prejudice. I hope we never reach the point at which our message to minority youths is that they are helpless, unable to make decisions that will give them the best chance to reach their goals in live. AzWm |
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Post by azson on Jun 22, 2021 10:36:27 GMT -8
Nothing has changed since 1950? Seriously? In which country were you living in 1950? Are you seriously suggesting that the situation for minorities is no different today from what it was in 1950? If so, I must tell you that such a contention is totally absurd. In 1950, blacks were still being lynched. In the South, blacks still had to drink out of separate fountains. They had to attend segregated schools that were of poor quality. They had a very hard time voting. In just about any aspect of life you wish to consider, blacks and other minorities had to deal with barriers that European Americans did not face. I cannot remember at any time teachers or my elders were telling me that race relations did not need to be improved. I certainly do not remember any of them moaning over the end of slavery or segregation. Of course, I was living in California, not the South. The question is not whether there is still prejudice in America. The question is what should we do about it? My belief is that there is only so much the government can do. It is up to all of us to continue the work of Martin Luther King, Jr., whose goal was to reach a time in which the color of our skin and our facial features were not what determined what other people think of us. AzWm Wm, just because they're not being hung from trees doesn't mean that blacks aren't still being lynched. |
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Post by aztecryan on Jun 22, 2021 10:50:05 GMT -8
Nothing has changed since 1950? Seriously? In which country were you living in 1950? Are you seriously suggesting that the situation for minorities is no different today from what it was in 1950? If so, I must tell you that such a contention is totally absurd. In 1950, blacks were still being lynched. In the South, blacks still had to drink out of separate fountains. They had to attend segregated schools that were of poor quality. They had a very hard time voting. In just about any aspect of life you wish to consider, blacks and other minorities had to deal with barriers that European Americans did not face. I cannot remember at any time teachers or my elders were telling me that race relations did not need to be improved. I certainly do not remember any of them moaning over the end of slavery or segregation. Of course, I was living in California, not the South. The question is not whether there is still prejudice in America. The question is what should we do about it? My belief is that there is only so much the government can do. It is up to all of us to continue the work of Martin Luther King, Jr., whose goal was to reach a time in which the color of our skin and our facial features were not what determined what other people think of us. AzWm Wm, just because they're not being hung from trees doesn't mean that blacks aren't still being lynched. Ding.. ding...ding. Just because the discrimination and violence is of a different method doesn't mean it's been eradicated. Ahmaud Arbery's a good example. In 1998, which wasn't all that long ago, James Byrd Jr. was chained to the back of a truck by three Klan members and dragged for over three miles. |
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Post by bnastyaztecs on Jun 22, 2021 11:46:45 GMT -8
"Republican votes in Congress that defeated the outright racist Democrats". Wow, remember the Rambler? great car. Remember Petula Clark? Dial phones? William most people posting here don't even know what I'm talking about cause they aren't f****** old as dirt...like us. The racists and racist groups are in one camp today, and its the Republican party. David Duke brags about voting for trump..know who he is? Proud Boys? white supremacists? good old boy rednecks? all in one camp. Yet some in here feel that it is OK to hate and blame the innocent believing that the villians are "..ALL whites name...born and unborn...". Can you conceive of a more hateful, bigoted and racist notion? Some say that there is little distinction between a good "white" and bad "white". What decade does that blanket racial hatred come from? Then there are those that have clearly rejected the color blind notions of MLK. All in one party and one camp indeed. I am encouraged, however, that the left leaning state of California clearly rejected the racism inspired Prop 16 (endorsed, of course, by the who's who of the Democrat party). This is a prime example of how right-wing conservatives lie, misinform and deceive their audience, constituents and public 24/7 on issues and policies: What I wrote: "...this means white babies had at least a 346 year head start at gathering wealth and passing it down to the next babies (generation)...while at the same time...state and federal government denied Black babies the same opportunities in ALL whites name...born and unborn..."What you amateurishly and impotent posted: " "..ALL whites name...born and unborn...". Anyone can see you deliberately erased everything from "ALL" to "this"...to outright deceive and attempt to convey false meaning through unscrupulous/inept editing...now why would you do a despicable act like that?...because the truth I wrote negatively exposes your beliefs, culture and upbringing...people lie and deceive when that happens and they have no valid or can't back their argument...simply pitiful..... |
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Post by bnastyaztecs on Jun 22, 2021 12:04:12 GMT -8
Nothing has changed since 1950? Seriously? In which country were you living in 1950? Are you seriously suggesting that the situation for minorities is no different today from what it was in 1950? If so, I must tell you that such a contention is totally absurd. In 1950, blacks were still being lynched. In the South, blacks still had to drink out of separate fountains. They had to attend segregated schools that were of poor quality. They had a very hard time voting. In just about any aspect of life you wish to consider, blacks and other minorities had to deal with barriers that European Americans did not face. I cannot remember at any time teachers or my elders were telling me that race relations did not need to be improved. I certainly do not remember any of them moaning over the end of slavery or segregation. Of course, I was living in California, not the South. The question is not whether there is still prejudice in America. The question is what should we do about it? My belief is that there is only so much the government can do. It is up to all of us to continue the work of Martin Luther King, Jr., whose goal was to reach a time in which the color of our skin and our facial features were not what determined what other people think of us. AzWm "In 1950, blacks were still being lynched." Man’s Hanging Death in Police Custody Ends with 5 Officers Fired, Georgia Officials Say"Harvey, 60, was brought in for questioning about an aggravated assault on April 3. He was left alone in an interview room. Investigators returned and found him suffering from “injuries sustained by an object in his possession,” The Savannah Morning News reported, citing police." "In late April, the department launched a second probe into a group chat between the officers that mentioned Harvey’s in-custody death and included a message with an insensitive meme/GIF attached, police said." Just so happens...the video camera in the interrogation room was conveniently turned off..... |
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Post by azson on Jun 22, 2021 12:07:49 GMT -8
Yet some in here feel that it is OK to hate and blame the innocent believing that the villians are "..ALL whites name...born and unborn...". Can you conceive of a more hateful, bigoted and racist notion? Some say that there is little distinction between a good "white" and bad "white". What decade does that blanket racial hatred come from? Then there are those that have clearly rejected the color blind notions of MLK. All in one party and one camp indeed. I am encouraged, however, that the left leaning state of California clearly rejected the racism inspired Prop 16 (endorsed, of course, by the who's who of the Democrat party). This is a prime example of how right-wing conservatives lie, misinform and deceive their audience, constituents and public 24/7 on issues and policies: What I wrote: "...this means white babies had at least a 346 year head start at gathering wealth and passing it down to the next babies (generation)...while at the same time...state and federal government denied Black babies the same opportunities in ALL whites name...born and unborn..."What you amateurishly and impotent posted: " "..ALL whites name...born and unborn...". Anyone can see you deliberately erased everything from "ALL" to "this"...to outright deceive and attempt to convey false meaning through unscrupulous/inept editing...now why would you do a despicable act like that?...because the truth I wrote negatively exposes your beliefs, culture and upbringing...people lie and deceive when that happens and they have no valid or can't back their argument...simply pitiful..... Thor is the king of red herrings and straw men. If there was a logical fallacy post counter, like the total post # below our avatars, thor's would easily be in the triple digits or perhaps even 1K+. |
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Post by 84aztec96 on Jun 22, 2021 12:09:56 GMT -8
No, America is not a "Fundamentally" racist country.
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Post by AztecWilliam on Jun 22, 2021 12:29:16 GMT -8
I will try again. Agreed that there is still too much prejudice in America. The question is, what should be do to solve that situation? As a libertarian, I am by inclination wary of the belief that the government can solve just about every problem. As I have said before, the government can do some things. Prime example, the 1964 Civil Rights Act. In general, however, it is up to the people of this society to put into practice what MLK was telling us.
As of 1960, there were many, many people in the South who opposed integration of any kind. Some were, as we know, quite willing to resort to violence based on their opposition. They did not respect the 1964 act. They opposed what Martin Luther Kind, J. was trying to do. Most of those most recalcitrant Southerners are dead. The South, in fact the whole country, is changing. In terms of relations between demographic groups, I think that change is mainly for the best.
I am eager to hear suggestions about how to combat prejudice and hatred. I am most eager to listen to ideas that do not require the use of the police power of the state to compel citizens to think or act in approved ways. That worked pretty well in Nazi Germany in the 1930s. Please, not here.
AzWm
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Post by azson on Jun 22, 2021 14:15:14 GMT -8
I will try again. Agreed that there is still too much prejudice in America. The question is, what should be do to solve that situation? As a libertarian, I am by inclination wary of the belief that the government can solve just about every problem. As I have said before, the government can do some things. Prime example, the 1964 Civil Rights Act. In general, however, it is up to the people of this society to put into practice what MLK was telling us. As of 1960, there were many, many people in the South who opposed integration of any kind. Some were, as we know, quite willing to resort to violence based on their opposition. They did not respect the 1964 act. They opposed what Martin Luther Kind, J. was trying to do. Most of those most recalcitrant Southerners are dead. The South, in fact the whole country, is changing. In terms of relations between demographic groups, I think that change is mainly for the best. I am eager to hear suggestions about how to combat prejudice and hatred. I am most eager to listen to ideas that do not require the use of the police power of the state to compel citizens to think or act in approved ways. That worked pretty well in Nazi Germany in the 1930s. Please, not here. AzWm I'd start with our education system, i.e. start teaching history that includes the racist underbelly of the founding of the country, e.g. A People's History of the U.S. should be required reading in high school. But I'm sure a registered libertarian shudders at the thought of anything "required". |
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Post by AztecWilliam on Jun 22, 2021 17:44:12 GMT -8
I think that what the Left has said for generations, that the United States is a horrible place that has no redeeming qualities, is a sure-fire recipe for the destruction of this country. Does anyone with even a sliver of historical knowledge not understand that ALL countries are imperfect, that ALL governments are guilty of doing terrible things, both to their citizens as well as to citizens of other countries?
How about Belgium, that peaceful little country in Western Europe. Pretty nice people live there, wouldn't you say? Well, perhaps we should study what was done by Belgium to the inhabitants of the Belgium Congo.
And then there is France; what a picture postcard of a place that is (took a train ride from Spain to Paris once, and saw first hand how wonderful the countryside is). Great history of art, cuisine, and literature (read the book A Distant Mirror and you will appreciate how important France has been to the development of all we treasure in Western Culture). Yet it wasn't too many years ago that France bombed a Greenpeace boat that the French decided was causing them trouble. Deliberately bombed and sank the Greenpeace Warrior, killing one!
And then there is Australia. How I wish that country were located next to Hawaii! Never been there, but my opinion of Australia and its people is very positive. On the other hand, Aboriginal people there were segregated from other non-Aboriginal people until the 1960s. Theatres and hospitals had sections roped off for Aboriginal people, they were often refused drinks in hotels, and schools could refuse to educate their children. Gee, that sounds like the South during segregation, doesn't it?
I have chosen three countries that most Americans admire, and with good reason. But even in these cases, their histories are not devoid of some very black marks.
Here's the basic question. Are the generations to come in America going get a balanced view of the U.S.A., both good and bad aspects? We should never ignore slavery, segregation, the internment of Japanese Americans in WWII, etc. But if the focus of our education is mostly on teaching kids how bad this country is, I fear for our future.
Yes, let's talk about what Jackson did to the Indian tribes and how we treated the Filipinos during Teddy's tenure in office. But let's also teach them about the Candy Bombers and what Lincoln said about the South in his second inaugural.
Many who have responded in this thread have no trouble listing America's flaws. I'm not seeing the same eagerness to list what's good about America. I'm reminded of something that happened in England in the 30s. A group of students, I think it was at Cambridge, signed a petition stating that they would never fight to defend King and country. Apparently they could see nothing in their country worth fighting for. That was about 1936.
I understand that at least a few of them changed course and fought the Nazis enthusiastically just a few years later. Apparently when it came right down to it, they decided that Western style democracy was after all worth fighting for, warts and all.
I hope we never are in the position to find out who does and who doesn't believe that the U.S.A. is worth fighting for.
AzWm
PS: Why is it that so many people from all over the world want to live here?
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Post by AztecWilliam on Jun 22, 2021 17:45:18 GMT -8
Sorry for the length of my previous post. But I hope it contains some thoughts that are worth considering.
AzWm
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Post by azson on Jun 23, 2021 9:34:20 GMT -8
I think that what the Left has said for generations, that the United States is a horrible place that has no redeeming qualities, is a sure-fire recipe for the destruction of this country. Does anyone with even a sliver of historical knowledge not understand that ALL countries are imperfect, that ALL governments are guilty of doing terrible things, both to their citizens as well as to citizens of other countries? How about Belgium, that peaceful little country in Western Europe. Pretty nice people live there, wouldn't you say? Well, perhaps we should study what was done by Belgium to the inhabitants of the Belgium Congo. And then there is France; what a picture postcard of a place that is (took a train ride from Spain to Paris once, and saw first hand how wonderful the countryside is). Great history of art, cuisine, and literature (read the book A Distant Mirror and you will appreciate how important France has been to the development of all we treasure in Western Culture). Yet it wasn't too many years ago that France bombed a Greenpeace boat that the French decided was causing them trouble. Deliberately bombed and sank the Greenpeace Warrior, killing one! And then there is Australia. How I wish that country were located next to Hawaii! Never been there, but my opinion of Australia and its people is very positive. On the other hand, Aboriginal people there were segregated from other non-Aboriginal people until the 1960s. Theatres and hospitals had sections roped off for Aboriginal people, they were often refused drinks in hotels, and schools could refuse to educate their children. Gee, that sounds like the South during segregation, doesn't it? I have chosen three countries that most Americans admire, and with good reason. But even in these cases, their histories are not devoid of some very black marks. Here's the basic question. Are the generations to come in America going get a balanced view of the U.S.A., both good and bad aspects? We should never ignore slavery, segregation, the internment of Japanese Americans in WWII, etc. But if the focus of our education is mostly on teaching kids how bad this country is, I fear for our future. Yes, let's talk about what Jackson did to the Indian tribes and how we treated the Filipinos during Teddy's tenure in office. But let's also teach them about the Candy Bombers and what Lincoln said about the South in his second inaugural. Many who have responded in this thread have no trouble listing America's flaws. I'm not seeing the same eagerness to list what's good about America. I'm reminded of something that happened in England in the 30s. A group of students, I think it was at Cambridge, signed a petition stating that they would never fight to defend King and country. Apparently they could see nothing in their country worth fighting for. That was about 1936. I understand that at least a few of them changed course and fought the Nazis enthusiastically just a few years later. Apparently when it came right down to it, they decided that Western style democracy was after all worth fighting for, warts and all. I hope we never are in the position to find out who does and who doesn't believe that the U.S.A. is worth fighting for. AzWm PS: Why is it that so many people from all over the world want to live here? You asked for suggestions, I gave you one, yet instead of engaging you come back with a hyperbolic non-sequitur. You wonder how we can fix the problem; maybe take a good look in the mirror? |
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Post by uwphoto on Jun 23, 2021 11:00:34 GMT -8
I think that what the Left has said for generations, that the United States is a horrible place that has no redeeming qualities, is a sure-fire recipe for the destruction of this country. Does anyone with even a sliver of historical knowledge not understand that ALL countries are imperfect, that ALL governments are guilty of doing terrible things, both to their citizens as well as to citizens of other countries? How about Belgium, that peaceful little country in Western Europe. Pretty nice people live there, wouldn't you say? Well, perhaps we should study what was done by Belgium to the inhabitants of the Belgium Congo. And then there is France; what a picture postcard of a place that is (took a train ride from Spain to Paris once, and saw first hand how wonderful the countryside is). Great history of art, cuisine, and literature (read the book A Distant Mirror and you will appreciate how important France has been to the development of all we treasure in Western Culture). Yet it wasn't too many years ago that France bombed a Greenpeace boat that the French decided was causing them trouble. Deliberately bombed and sank the Greenpeace Warrior, killing one! And then there is Australia. How I wish that country were located next to Hawaii! Never been there, but my opinion of Australia and its people is very positive. On the other hand, Aboriginal people there were segregated from other non-Aboriginal people until the 1960s. Theatres and hospitals had sections roped off for Aboriginal people, they were often refused drinks in hotels, and schools could refuse to educate their children. Gee, that sounds like the South during segregation, doesn't it? I have chosen three countries that most Americans admire, and with good reason. But even in these cases, their histories are not devoid of some very black marks. Here's the basic question. Are the generations to come in America going get a balanced view of the U.S.A., both good and bad aspects? We should never ignore slavery, segregation, the internment of Japanese Americans in WWII, etc. But if the focus of our education is mostly on teaching kids how bad this country is, I fear for our future. Yes, let's talk about what Jackson did to the Indian tribes and how we treated the Filipinos during Teddy's tenure in office. But let's also teach them about the Candy Bombers and what Lincoln said about the South in his second inaugural. Many who have responded in this thread have no trouble listing America's flaws. I'm not seeing the same eagerness to list what's good about America. I'm reminded of something that happened in England in the 30s. A group of students, I think it was at Cambridge, signed a petition stating that they would never fight to defend King and country. Apparently they could see nothing in their country worth fighting for. That was about 1936. I understand that at least a few of them changed course and fought the Nazis enthusiastically just a few years later. Apparently when it came right down to it, they decided that Western style democracy was after all worth fighting for, warts and all. I hope we never are in the position to find out who does and who doesn't believe that the U.S.A. is worth fighting for. AzWm PS: Why is it that so many people from all over the world want to live here? Can't help myself..since you mention Andrew Jackson atrocities against Native Americans..so Trump had a portrait of Andrew Jackson behind him when he invited the "Code Talkers" to the White House... just really insensitive and worse that that....DUMB!! |
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Post by AztecWilliam on Jun 23, 2021 12:15:44 GMT -8
I think that what the Left has said for generations, . . .
. . .believe that the U.S.A. is worth fighting for.
AzWm
PS: Why is it that so many people from all over the world want to live here?
You asked for suggestions, I gave you one, yet instead of engaging you come back with a hyperbolic non-sequitur. You wonder how we can fix the problem; maybe take a good look in the mirror? I have not read the book you cite and can therefore not comment on whether it would be an appropriate text book for public schools. I suppose you have read it, so maybe you could answer this question. Does the book you recommend give students a balanced view of the United States, covering the good and the bad aspects of our history? That's a serious question. Speaking of the teaching U.S. history, there is another point that merits consideration. What should be the main emphasis of such teaching? Since I view the United States of America as an imperfect yet great country (and here I use great in a positive sense), I would hope that what makes it great will be given special emphasis. Let's not gloss over slavery, Jackson's treatment of Indian tribes, shameful treatment of immigrants ( Irish need not apply), etc. But I would hope the students studying our history would come away with an appreciation of why this experiment in self-government is to be treasured. I would hope that students would not be taught that that their country is just one long list of horrible human rights violations. When speaking of history, context is crucial. That's true whether you are referring to government or individuals. Let me offer Babe Ruth as an example. What was special about Ruth? One could point out, correctly, that he was an uneducated, drunken, womanizing man who failed 2/3 of the time when attempting to carry out his assigned athletic duties. Would that be a fair view of Babe Ruth? As I said, context is crucial. Babe Ruth had a lifetime batting average of .342, one of the highest in the history of the game. But that means that he was put out 2/3 of the time he came to the plate. So low a success rate in almost any other field would be considered atrocious. Context tells us that his success rate was extraordinary. Also missing is the fact that, almost single-handedly, he radically changed the game of baseball. And then there is the fact that Ruth would likely have been a Hall of Famer had he continued as a pitcher. I would hope that German students’ study of that nation’s history is not limited to the twelve year reign of one of history’s most vile humans. In the same fashion, I would hope that our students not be taught that slavery and segregation are all one needs to know about the history of America. My posts on this and similar topics tend to run long, so I will end for now. I’ll be satisfied with leaving this thought. Americans are either proud or ashamed of America. Thankfully, one does not have to think that the country has always been perfect to be proud of it. AzWm |
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Post by AztecWilliam on Jun 23, 2021 12:17:55 GMT -8
I think that what the Left has said for generations, that the United States is a horrible place that has no redeeming qualities, is a sure-fire recipe for the destruction of this country. Does anyone with even a sliver of historical knowledge not understand that ALL countries are imperfect, that ALL governments are guilty of doing terrible things, both to their citizens as well as to citizens of other countries? How about Belgium, that peaceful little country in Western Europe. Pretty nice people live there, wouldn't you say? Well, perhaps we should study what was done by Belgium to the inhabitants of the Belgium Congo. And then there is France; what a picture postcard of a place that is (took a train ride from Spain to Paris once, and saw first hand how wonderful the countryside is). Great history of art, cuisine, and literature (read the book A Distant Mirror and you will appreciate how important France has been to the development of all we treasure in Western Culture). Yet it wasn't too many years ago that France bombed a Greenpeace boat that the French decided was causing them trouble. Deliberately bombed and sank the Greenpeace Warrior, killing one! And then there is Australia. How I wish that country were located next to Hawaii! Never been there, but my opinion of Australia and its people is very positive. On the other hand, Aboriginal people there were segregated from other non-Aboriginal people until the 1960s. Theatres and hospitals had sections roped off for Aboriginal people, they were often refused drinks in hotels, and schools could refuse to educate their children. Gee, that sounds like the South during segregation, doesn't it? I have chosen three countries that most Americans admire, and with good reason. But even in these cases, their histories are not devoid of some very black marks. Here's the basic question. Are the generations to come in America going get a balanced view of the U.S.A., both good and bad aspects? We should never ignore slavery, segregation, the internment of Japanese Americans in WWII, etc. But if the focus of our education is mostly on teaching kids how bad this country is, I fear for our future. Yes, let's talk about what Jackson did to the Indian tribes and how we treated the Filipinos during Teddy's tenure in office. But let's also teach them about the Candy Bombers and what Lincoln said about the South in his second inaugural. Many who have responded in this thread have no trouble listing America's flaws. I'm not seeing the same eagerness to list what's good about America. I'm reminded of something that happened in England in the 30s. A group of students, I think it was at Cambridge, signed a petition stating that they would never fight to defend King and country. Apparently they could see nothing in their country worth fighting for. That was about 1936. I understand that at least a few of them changed course and fought the Nazis enthusiastically just a few years later. Apparently when it came right down to it, they decided that Western style democracy was after all worth fighting for, warts and all. I hope we never are in the position to find out who does and who doesn't believe that the U.S.A. is worth fighting for. AzWm PS: Why is it that so many people from all over the world want to live here? Can't help myself..since you mention Andrew Jackson atrocities against Native Americans..so Trump had a portrait of Andrew Jackson behind him when he invited the "Code Talkers" to the White House... just really insensitive and worse that that....DUMB!! Can you think of anything or anyone without bringing up Donald Trump? AzWm |
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