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Post by azteccc on Jul 1, 2022 23:40:59 GMT -8
There is absolutely zero trolling in my response, I believe every word of it. According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics - #22: www.facilities.udel.edu/safety/4689/And that refers to patrol officers, not even including the desk jockeys, admin, management, detectives, etc., which would lower them even further on the list. I didn't say anything about tasers. I said there should be strict rules for discharging firearms - strict enough to discourage it in every circumstance imaginable. If it must be done, that officer should know it will be the end of their career as a LEO, even when that action saves lives. Harsh, but necessary. In every situation in which less than lethal force can be used or tried, it should be. If you want that to be a taser, sure thing fine by me. I value the lives of innocent civilians more than I value the inherent safety felt by a police officer. And I also believe the lives of innocent civilians should be systemically valued more than that of a LEO when the LEO is initiating contact between the two, all else held constant. I can understand what you're saying to a degree, but let me give you a scenario and tell me if this is a justifiable situation to use a firearm by a police officer, in your view. In a police/civilian encounter, do you think it's justifiable for a police officer to shoot a civilian if the civilian is a known murderer and the police officer has been told by dispatch that he's armed and dangerous, and the civilian reaches in his waistband, this after repeated commands to put his hands up and get on the ground? I would need your definition “known”, and would need to know what proof is available/who is saying “reaches in his waistband”. Regardless, none of my statements above would be changed either way. And unedited body camera footage from the entire interaction that was immediately released to the public, as mentioned above, would tell the most accurate story. |
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Post by johneaztec on Jul 1, 2022 23:45:45 GMT -8
You can kiss my a** for implying that I'm racist, Ryan. You have ZERO people skills with the ones that don't adhere to your thinking. That's very sad, and a horrible trait. Fox your anger issues,dude. It's not a way to live life to it's fullest. You're the one making it a black and white issue, and if I, or someone else differs from you or brings up another angle on it, you're TRIGGERED every time. Pitiful. Get a grip and learn how to treat HUMANS better. Bringing up a black man's view on it falls right in line with this topic, especially since you've pitted blacks against whites. So get a grip. You think I'm angry at you because of your lame attempt at a "gotcha"? Not angry at all. Perfectly rational, reasonable response. Your rebuttal was silly (and you didn't even get the guy's name right)....and lacks any kind of self-awareness. Also, it's literally a black and white issue. It's about race. 100%. Why would I care or give Larry Elder, a noted conservative race-baiter, any care in the world? His analysis means nothing to me. He's a failed political candidate for governor of California. Is he a sociologist? Does he have any qualifications that make him a meaningful source on the topic? No. So now you're saying it IS because he's Black? Dude...think before you come up with this stuff, for pete's sake. Think about how this is being conveyed? I'm not pitting anyone against anyone. I'm stating what you can see clearly in the sourced data above. Wow. So, you're going to go as low getting on someone for a spelling error, that was auto-corrected. Unbelievable, but actually, not unbelievable in your case. Hey, are you a sociologist? Heck no. Why would anybody listen to you, and YOUR opinion of what you read? See how that works? I was giving you a black man's point of view since you want to make this a white/black race issue. Don't you get that? Sheesh. Your sourced data above? I can find sources that refute that. Anybody can find data that will fit their narrative such as yours. Talking about a race baiter. Look in the mirror dude. That reflection shines bright. You're an obvious far, far left individual who has big time blinders on and will only see things that will fulfill his hate. Have at that kind of life Ryan. It's your life, after all. |
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Post by johneaztec on Jul 1, 2022 23:49:07 GMT -8
I can understand what you're saying to a degree, but let me give you a scenario and tell me if this is a justifiable situation to use a firearm by a police officer, in your view. In a police/civilian encounter, do you think it's justifiable for a police officer to shoot a civilian if the civilian is a known murderer and the police officer has been told by dispatch that he's armed and dangerous, and the civilian reaches in his waistband, this after repeated commands to put his hands up and get on the ground? I would need your definition “known”, and would need to know what proof is available/who is saying “reaches in his waistband”. Regardless, none of my statements above would be changed either way. And unedited body camera footage from the entire interaction that was immediately released to the public, as mentioned above, would tell the most accurate story. Known/convicted of recently, and on the run from it, murder. All officers have body cam footage and theirs witnesses. Would this be a scenario where it would be a justified shooting in your eyes? |
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Post by sdsuball on Jul 1, 2022 23:59:48 GMT -8
See, you can't open your mind up to even give it a shot and hear what he has to say, because there's NO WAY Ryan's ever wrong. You dig in like no one I've ever seen before. You've got a BIG set of blinders on. Sheesh. Yeah, never listen to what the other side says, because you just might possibly have another view that you would never admit, because you can never be wrong. Like I said, pitiful. And, that's like me saying to you as well, "Let me guess, your sources say that whites shoot blacks at a more alarming rate." Are you afraid of doing extensive research from both sides, because you may be wrong? Nevermind. I know the answer from you anyway. Don't waste my time. While black people may be 2.5x more likely to be killed by police officers then white people in that county, that in and of itself is not an indictment of the police officers in that county. What is the crime rate for black people vs. white people in that county? If (for example) black people interact with the police 2.5x as much as white people then you would also expect them to be killed by police officers 2.5x as much, right? So the fact that you provided does not necessarily prove ill-will or malice from that county's police officers. You need to also provide how often black people vs. white people come into contact with police in that county, or provide crime rates by race in that county to serve as a proxy for interactions. And obviously (because I know you will go here) you need to also consider why black people interact more then white people with police (ie. is it due to racial profiling, is it due to more criminal activity, or is it a combination of both), and not just dismiss that as racist. |
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Post by azteccc on Jul 2, 2022 0:06:46 GMT -8
I would need your definition “known”, and would need to know what proof is available/who is saying “reaches in his waistband”. Regardless, none of my statements above would be changed either way. And unedited body camera footage from the entire interaction that was immediately released to the public, as mentioned above, would tell the most accurate story. Known/convicted of recently, and on the run from it, murder. All officers have body cam footage and theirs witnesses. Would this be a scenario where it would be a justified shooting in your eyes? Sure. Rule #1 still applies: “Any cop that discharges their firearm should never be allowed to be a LEO in any jurisdiction in America, ever again.” We’ll say sorry for the situation you found yourself in, thank you for your service, enjoy retirement/opening a bake shop/Excel spreadsheets/whatever. |
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Post by aztecryan on Jul 2, 2022 0:22:52 GMT -8
Here is a fact: Black people make up 13% of the population in this country (approximately)...yet they account for 25% of the number of people killed by police. How's that for a ratio? That means they are 2.5x(+) more likely to be killed at the hands of police. While black people may be 2.5x more likely to be killed by police officers then white people in that county, that in and of itself is not an indictment of the police officers in that county. What is the crime rate for black people vs. white people in that county? If (for example) black people interact with the police 2.5x as much as white people then you would also expect them to be killed by police officers 2.5x as much, right? So the fact that you provided does not necessarily prove ill-will or malice from that county's police officers. You need to also provide how often black people vs. white people come into contact with police in that county, or provide crime rates by race in that county to serve as a proxy for interactions. And obviously (because I know you will go here) you need to also consider why black people interact more then white people with police (ie. is it due to racial profiling, is it due to more criminal activity, or is it a combination of both), and not just dismiss that as racist. I'm not talking about a particular county....those are national statistics. |
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Post by sdsuball on Jul 2, 2022 0:24:56 GMT -8
Known/convicted of recently, and on the run from it, murder. All officers have body cam footage and theirs witnesses. Would this be a scenario where it would be a justified shooting in your eyes? Sure. Rule #1 still applies: “Any cop that discharges their firearm should never be allowed to be a LEO in any jurisdiction in America, ever again.” We’ll say sorry for the situation you found yourself in, thank you for your service, enjoy retirement/opening a bake shop/Excel spreadsheets/whatever. It's honestly an interesting idea. |
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Post by johneaztec on Jul 2, 2022 0:26:40 GMT -8
While black people may be 2.5x more likely to be killed by police officers then white people in that county, that in and of itself is not an indictment of the police officers in that county. What is the crime rate for black people vs. white people in that county? If (for example) black people interact with the police 2.5x as much as white people then you would also expect them to be killed by police officers 2.5x as much, right? So the fact that you provided does not necessarily prove ill-will or malice from that county's police officers. You need to also provide how often black people vs. white people come into contact with police in that county, or provide crime rates by race in that county to serve as a proxy for interactions. And obviously (because I know you will go here) you need to also consider why black people interact more then white people with police (ie. is it due to racial profiling, is it due to more criminal activity, or is it a combination of both), and not just dismiss that as racist. I'm not talking about a particular county....those are national statistics. Then do a national analysis |
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Post by johneaztec on Jul 2, 2022 0:30:38 GMT -8
Known/convicted of recently, and on the run from it, murder. All officers have body cam footage and theirs witnesses. Would this be a scenario where it would be a justified shooting in your eyes? Sure. Rule #1 still applies: “Any cop that discharges their firearm should never be allowed to be a LEO in any jurisdiction in America, ever again.” We’ll say sorry for the situation you found yourself in, thank you for your service, enjoy retirement/opening a bake shop/Excel spreadsheets/whatever. So, even if it was the only way for the police officer to defend himself and innocent bystanders, shoot, or definitely be shot, then you say he should be let go? If so, why? |
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Post by aztecryan on Jul 2, 2022 0:33:33 GMT -8
You think I'm angry at you because of your lame attempt at a "gotcha"? Not angry at all. Perfectly rational, reasonable response. Your rebuttal was silly (and you didn't even get the guy's name right)....and lacks any kind of self-awareness. Also, it's literally a black and white issue. It's about race. 100%. Why would I care or give Larry Elder, a noted conservative race-baiter, any care in the world? His analysis means nothing to me. He's a failed political candidate for governor of California. Is he a sociologist? Does he have any qualifications that make him a meaningful source on the topic? No. So now you're saying it IS because he's Black? Dude...think before you come up with this stuff, for pete's sake. Think about how this is being conveyed? I'm not pitting anyone against anyone. I'm stating what you can see clearly in the sourced data above. Wow. So, you're going to go as low getting on someone for a spelling error, that was auto-corrected. Unbelievable, but actually, not unbelievable in your case. Hey, are you a sociologist? Heck no. Why would anybody listen to you, and YOUR opinion of what you read? See how that works? I was giving you a black man's point of view since you want to make this a white/black race issue. Don't you get that? Sheesh. Your sourced data above? I can find sources that refute that. Anybody can find data that will fit their narrative such as yours. Talking about a race baiter. Look in the mirror dude. That reflection shines bright. You're an obvious far, far left individual who has big time blinders on and will only see things that will fulfill his hate. Have at that kind of life Ryan. It's your life, after all. You got me....I'm so far to the left that I believe the killing of unarmed civilians is something we shouldn't tolerate as a society. The gall of me to have such gumption....? (Are you listening to yourself or are you now trolling me?...I'm not sure) Fulfill my hate? My hate of what, exactly? You make so many silly and idiotic assumptions about my life (Shockingly, a message board has zero impact on my life whatsoever) that it's pretty clear how weak your argumentative skills are. Please, find some sources that refute the data from Harvard's study. My guess is you won't...or can't. Note again: Your first response in this thread was indicative of who you are, not who I am. You have a really bad habit (that you might be unaware of genuinely) of whitewashing matters of race. Remember the "I have Black friends" from long ago? I have no clue what is so hard to understand that I am not MAKING this ANYTHING. It IS, by default, a RACIAL issue. How do you not see that? The majority of officers who kill Black, unarmed civilians are White. Seven of the eight Akron cops now on paid leave? White. I'm not exactly breaking news here. Derek Chauvin? White. Daniel Pantaleo? White. Now, are there more White police officers? Likely. They make up a greater part of the US population. But there are things we look for in the world of statistics called patterns. Unfortunately, we have one here. |
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Post by aztecryan on Jul 2, 2022 0:36:23 GMT -8
I'm not talking about a particular county....those are national statistics. Then do a national analysis Let me try this again. The statistics...I just posted....above....? Those ones? They are NATIONAL statistics. mappingpoliceviolence.org/ |
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Post by johneaztec on Jul 2, 2022 0:37:57 GMT -8
Wow. So, you're going to go as low getting on someone for a spelling error, that was auto-corrected. Unbelievable, but actually, not unbelievable in your case. Hey, are you a sociologist? Heck no. Why would anybody listen to you, and YOUR opinion of what you read? See how that works? I was giving you a black man's point of view since you want to make this a white/black race issue. Don't you get that? Sheesh. Your sourced data above? I can find sources that refute that. Anybody can find data that will fit their narrative such as yours. Talking about a race baiter. Look in the mirror dude. That reflection shines bright. You're an obvious far, far left individual who has big time blinders on and will only see things that will fulfill his hate. Have at that kind of life Ryan. It's your life, after all. You got me....I'm so far to the left that I believe the killing of unarmed civilians is something we shouldn't tolerate as a society. The gall of me to have such gumption....? (Are you listening to yourself or are you now trolling me?...I'm not sure) Fulfill my hate? My hate of what, exactly? You make so many silly and idiotic assumptions about my life (Shockingly, a message board has zero impact on my life whatsoever) that it's pretty clear how weak your argumentative skills are. Please, find some sources that refute the data from Harvard's study. My guess is you won't...or can't. Note again: Your first response in this thread was indicative of who you are, not who I am. You have a really bad habit (that you might be unaware of genuinely) of whitewashing matters of race. Remember the "I have Black friends" from long ago? I have no clue what is so hard to understand that I am not MAKING this ANYTHING. It IS, by default, a RACIAL issue. How do you not see that? The majority of officers who kill Black, unarmed civilians are White. Seven of the eight Akron cops now on paid leave? White. I'm not exactly breaking news here. Derek Chauvin? White. Daniel Pantaleo? White. Now, are there more White police officers? Likely. They make up a greater part of the US population. But there are things we look for in the world of statistics called patterns. Unfortunately, we have one here. Did the police officers know he didn't have a gun on him, especially after being shot at? What are the officers trained to do in that scenario? |
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Post by johneaztec on Jul 2, 2022 0:41:23 GMT -8
Then do a national analysis Let me try this again. The statistics...I just posted....above....? Those ones? They are NATIONAL statistics. mappingpoliceviolence.org/I'm talking about the national statistics pertaining to the amount of interactions between whites and blacks with police officers, like sdsuball stated. |
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Post by aztecryan on Jul 2, 2022 0:41:42 GMT -8
You got me....I'm so far to the left that I believe the killing of unarmed civilians is something we shouldn't tolerate as a society. The gall of me to have such gumption....? (Are you listening to yourself or are you now trolling me?...I'm not sure) Fulfill my hate? My hate of what, exactly? You make so many silly and idiotic assumptions about my life (Shockingly, a message board has zero impact on my life whatsoever) that it's pretty clear how weak your argumentative skills are. Please, find some sources that refute the data from Harvard's study. My guess is you won't...or can't. Note again: Your first response in this thread was indicative of who you are, not who I am. You have a really bad habit (that you might be unaware of genuinely) of whitewashing matters of race. Remember the "I have Black friends" from long ago? I have no clue what is so hard to understand that I am not MAKING this ANYTHING. It IS, by default, a RACIAL issue. How do you not see that? The majority of officers who kill Black, unarmed civilians are White. Seven of the eight Akron cops now on paid leave? White. I'm not exactly breaking news here. Derek Chauvin? White. Daniel Pantaleo? White. Now, are there more White police officers? Likely. They make up a greater part of the US population. But there are things we look for in the world of statistics called patterns. Unfortunately, we have one here. Did the police officers know he didn't have a gun on him, especially after being shot at? What are the officers trained to do in that scenario? Apparently they are trained to shoot someone sixty times who is running away from them. I'm sure it will be justified while they are on paid administrative leave. How these things usually go, unfortunately. |
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Post by johneaztec on Jul 2, 2022 0:45:38 GMT -8
Did the police officers know he didn't have a gun on him, especially after being shot at? What are the officers trained to do in that scenario? Apparently they are trained to shoot someone sixty times who is running away from them. I'm sure it will be justified while they are on paid administrative leave. How these things usually go, unfortunately. Did the Buffalo shooter, the one you alluded to, shoot at police officers and then run after a high speed chase and while possibly carrying that gun? |
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Post by aztecryan on Jul 2, 2022 0:48:39 GMT -8
Let me try this again. The statistics...I just posted....above....? Those ones? They are NATIONAL statistics. mappingpoliceviolence.org/I'm talking about the national statistics pertaining to the amount of interactions between whites and blacks with police officers like sdsuball stated. To prove what, exactly? Those interactions would be logged by the individual police departments and they aren't exactly publishing them on the Internet. You're not going to find what you think you are, unfortunately. "Government officials, academic researchers and media outlets launched data-collection projects around that time to better understand the frequency of police violence and the risk factors that contribute to it. From these growing data sets come some disturbing findings. About 1,000 civilians are killed each year by law-enforcement officers in the United States. By one estimate, Black men are 2.5 times more likely than white men to be killed by police during their lifetime1. And in another study, Black people who were fatally shot by police seemed to be twice as likely as white people to be unarmed." www.nature.com/articles/d41586-020-01846-zYou are far more likely to be pulled over by the police if you're Black. You're far more likely to be searched by a police officer if you're Black. (This is why the stop and frisk laws in New York City were ended, as they were ruled unconstitutional and targeted racial bias) |
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Post by aztecryan on Jul 2, 2022 0:53:16 GMT -8
Apparently they are trained to shoot someone sixty times who is running away from them. I'm sure it will be justified while they are on paid administrative leave. How these things usually go, unfortunately. Did the Buffalo shooter, the one you alluded to, shoot at police officers and then run after a high speed chase and while possibly carrying that gun? This again? No, they were able to talk him into surrendering after he pointed the gun at his own head. Maybe they took him to get lunch afterwards, I don't know. I wasn't there. Fun fact: Initiating a police pursuit does not equal a death sentence in America. |
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Post by aztecryan on Jul 2, 2022 0:58:25 GMT -8
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Post by azteccc on Jul 2, 2022 1:30:54 GMT -8
Sure. Rule #1 still applies: “Any cop that discharges their firearm should never be allowed to be a LEO in any jurisdiction in America, ever again.” We’ll say sorry for the situation you found yourself in, thank you for your service, enjoy retirement/opening a bake shop/Excel spreadsheets/whatever. So, even if it was the only way for the police officer to defend himself and innocent bystanders, shoot, or definitely be shot, then you say he should be let go? If so, why? Yes. Because a) exceptions create loopholes, b) the consequences for peace officers need to be real and high-stakes enough that in their own mind, it is truly a last resort, and c) I don't care the circumstance, using lethal force on another human, much less succeeding in taking a life, changes a person in ways that only they can understand, and I do not think a person that is sworn to serve the public would likely ever again be able to be completely impartial/unbiased. It does not need to be seen as a punishment. It should be seen as the cost of doing business. If an untainted courtroom finds that it was completely justifiable by all reasonable standards, give the LEO an early pension. |
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Post by sdsuball on Jul 2, 2022 1:37:42 GMT -8
I'm talking about the national statistics pertaining to the amount of interactions between whites and blacks with police officers like sdsuball stated. Those interactions would be logged by the individual police departments and they aren't exactly publishing them on the Internet. You're not going to find what you think you are, unfortunately. "Government officials, academic researchers and media outlets launched data-collection projects around that time to better understand the frequency of police violence and the risk factors that contribute to it. From these growing data sets come some disturbing findings. About 1,000 civilians are killed each year by law-enforcement officers in the United States. By one estimate, Black men are 2.5 times more likely than white men to be killed by police during their lifetime1. And in another study, Black people who were fatally shot by police seemed to be twice as likely as white people to be unarmed." www.nature.com/articles/d41586-020-01846-zYou are far more likely to be pulled over by the police if you're Black. You're far more likely to be searched by a police officer if you're Black. (This is why the stop and frisk laws in New York City were ended, as they were ruled unconstitutional and targeted racial bias) YES, that's exactly my point! Black people interact with the police more often then white people, so obviously there would be a higher (proportionate) number of black deaths then white deaths. You're proving my point. The fact that more black people are dying proportionately then white people at the hands of police officers is not some modern day witch hunt by police officers intent on killing black people. Now if you want to make the claim that it's due to racial bias, then you're likely (partially) correct. But how much of that has to do with poverty? (ie. some crimes are committed at higher rates due to poverty, stealing etc) So you would also consider that some of those increases in police interactions are due to higher poverty levels ---> higher crime rates for black people... right? |
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