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Post by johneaztec on May 13, 2021 15:25:53 GMT -8
Every conversation goes this direction in situations like this. No shock. Because discourse gets lost when people rail on "illegals" and spread wild conspiracy theories. Some of us don't want to tolerate garbage like that. Do you not think the border situation is out of control? |
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Post by AztecWilliam on May 13, 2021 15:51:12 GMT -8
I am beside myself. This thread was started for the purpose of recognizing the administration's laudable actions. Instead, it has morphed into another parade of "orange man bad" tirades. Okay, I will now add, in the spirit of the thread, another positive post. This refers to the VP's answer to the question "Is this a racist country?" She stated that the U.S.A. is not a racist country. I applaud that answer. This country has plenty of faults (as does every nation), but nation-wide racial prejudice is not one of them. AzWm You continue to allow the same poster to peddle conspiracy theories and thinly-veiled racism over and over..and you expect everything to just stay on the tracks? This isn't a parade of "orange man bad" - It's one poster continually bringing up disingenuous red herrings while propagating myths and the rest of us on Earth are using logic and substance to rebut said red herrings. Since the GOP (Lindsey Gfaham, for instance) literally said the GOP cannot move forward without Trump, that's a pretty important narrative to honor, considering the trainwreck of the last four years and the extreme danger that Trump put this country in (repeatedly) during his administration. Seriously, accusing someone of being a racist is not trivial. I must ask that you identify the poster to whom you make reference. PM me if you prefer. By the way, in your view is there any right wing/conservative/libertarian opinion that is NOT a train wreck? Put another way, should everything to the right of center be shunned by all patriotic Americans? In that regard, what do you say about the millions of Americans who do not think the last four years were a train wreck? Those millions include many who undoubtedly do not approve of everything President Trump did, but who have a more nuanced view of the 45th POTUS. By more nuanced, I mean people who do not consider the tenure of Donald Trump to be the equivalent of the tenure of Adolf Hitler. As a matter of fact, I did not vote for Trump either time, and I most seriously do NOT think the last four years were a train wreck. Plenty to criticize, most definitely Trump's behavior post November. But a complete disaster, no. I will offer just a couple of examples. I strongly approve of backing out of the Iran and climate deals. Does that make me a horrible person who should be banned from polite society, if not worse? Or does that mean that I am merely an American who sees the world differently? AzWm |
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Post by azson on May 13, 2021 16:05:32 GMT -8
You continue to allow the same poster to peddle conspiracy theories and thinly-veiled racism over and over..and you expect everything to just stay on the tracks? This isn't a parade of "orange man bad" - It's one poster continually bringing up disingenuous red herrings while propagating myths and the rest of us on Earth are using logic and substance to rebut said red herrings. Since the GOP (Lindsey Gfaham, for instance) literally said the GOP cannot move forward without Trump, that's a pretty important narrative to honor, considering the trainwreck of the last four years and the extreme danger that Trump put this country in (repeatedly) during his administration. Seriously, accusing someone of being a racist is not trivial. I must ask that you identify the poster to whom you make reference. PM me if you prefer. By the way, in your view is there any right wing/conservative/libertarian opinion that is NOT a train wreck? Put another way, should everything to the right of center be shunned by all patriotic Americans? In that regard, what do you say about the millions of Americans who do not think the last four years were a train wreck? Those millions include many who undoubtedly do not approve of everything President Trump did, but who have a more nuanced view of the 45th POTUS. By more nuanced, I mean people who do not consider the tenure of Donald Trump to be the equivalent of the tenure of Adolf Hitler. As a matter of fact, I did not vote for Trump either time, and I most seriously do NOT think the last four years were a train wreck. Plenty to criticize, most definitely Trump's behavior post November. But a complete disaster, no. I will offer just a couple of examples. I strongly approve of backing out of the Iran and climate deals. Does that make me a horrible person who should be banned from polite society, if not worse? Or does that mean that I am merely an American who sees the world differently? AzWm 400K+ Americans dead thanks to 45's absolute bungling of the Covid crisis. If you don't consider that a train wreck, no sense even debating with you the other myriad disasters of his presidency. |
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Post by AztecWilliam on May 13, 2021 16:08:55 GMT -8
Well, the GOP came close to winning the House and at least split in the Senate, which is much better than many parties have done when not winning the Presidency. We shall see what happens in the next year and a half. AzWm That doesn't even remotely address the content of the post. Really? My response addressed the statement that the Dems won everything. That's partly true, but ignores the fact that the Dems came close to losing the House when they were supposed to increase their majority. As for the Senate, the Republicans would now be in control if the Georgia GOP candidate with the most votes in November not been forced into a runoff (which Trump may well have sabotaged with his post election melt-down). In any case, at least two or three Rep Senators who were considered vulnerable held on. With Biden receiving so many more votes that Trump, one would have thought that the Dems would have done better. Yes, the Democrats are now in control. But with the thinnest congressional majority ever for a party winning the White House. That does not seem to restrain them from attempting to be bring about the biggest transformation of the country since . . . well since ever! So, yes, my response did address the post. AzWm |
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Post by AztecWilliam on May 13, 2021 16:11:21 GMT -8
Seriously, accusing someone of being a racist is not trivial. I must ask that you identify the poster to whom you make reference. PM me if you prefer. By the way, in your view is there any right wing/conservative/libertarian opinion that is NOT a train wreck? Put another way, should everything to the right of center be shunned by all patriotic Americans? In that regard, what do you say about the millions of Americans who do not think the last four years were a train wreck? Those millions include many who undoubtedly do not approve of everything President Trump did, but who have a more nuanced view of the 45th POTUS. By more nuanced, I mean people who do not consider the tenure of Donald Trump to be the equivalent of the tenure of Adolf Hitler. As a matter of fact, I did not vote for Trump either time, and I most seriously do NOT think the last four years were a train wreck. Plenty to criticize, most definitely Trump's behavior post November. But a complete disaster, no. I will offer just a couple of examples. I strongly approve of backing out of the Iran and climate deals. Does that make me a horrible person who should be banned from polite society, if not worse? Or does that mean that I am merely an American who sees the world differently? AzWm 400K+ Americans dead thanks to 45's absolute bungling of the Covid crisis. If you don't consider that a train wreck, no sense even debating with you the other myriad disasters of his presidency. So, Trump is to blame for ALL the Covid deaths? Seriously? I suppose Operation Warp Speed was without value. AzWm |
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Post by aztecryan on May 13, 2021 19:17:47 GMT -8
Because discourse gets lost when people rail on "illegals" and spread wild conspiracy theories. Some of us don't want to tolerate garbage like that. Do you not think the border situation is out of control? No more out of control than it was during the previous administration. The reality is the asylum process is a complete mess and has been for a very, very long time. Immigration needs a complete systematic overhaul. |
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Post by aztecryan on May 13, 2021 19:27:49 GMT -8
You continue to allow the same poster to peddle conspiracy theories and thinly-veiled racism over and over..and you expect everything to just stay on the tracks? This isn't a parade of "orange man bad" - It's one poster continually bringing up disingenuous red herrings while propagating myths and the rest of us on Earth are using logic and substance to rebut said red herrings. Since the GOP (Lindsey Gfaham, for instance) literally said the GOP cannot move forward without Trump, that's a pretty important narrative to honor, considering the trainwreck of the last four years and the extreme danger that Trump put this country in (repeatedly) during his administration. Seriously, accusing someone of being a racist is not trivial. I must ask that you identify the poster to whom you make reference. PM me if you prefer. By the way, in your view is there any right wing/conservative/libertarian opinion that is NOT a train wreck? Put another way, should everything to the right of center be shunned by all patriotic Americans? In that regard, what do you say about the millions of Americans who do not think the last four years were a train wreck? Those millions include many who undoubtedly do not approve of everything President Trump did, but who have a more nuanced view of the 45th POTUS. By more nuanced, I mean people who do not consider the tenure of Donald Trump to be the equivalent of the tenure of Adolf Hitler. As a matter of fact, I did not vote for Trump either time, and I most seriously do NOT think the last four years were a train wreck. Plenty to criticize, most definitely Trump's behavior post November. But a complete disaster, no. I will offer just a couple of examples. I strongly approve of backing out of the Iran and climate deals. Does that make me a horrible person who should be banned from polite society, if not worse? Or does that mean that I am merely an American who sees the world differently? AzWm You can read the same posts I can, right? It's not hard to figure out who the problem child is here. It's the same person, over and over, spouting hyperbolic lies and not-so-subtle racist language, attacking "illegals" right and left while providing false context. You exaggerate points to great effect....but it doesn't make your statements true or remotely close to it. Donald Trump isn't a conservative - There is no such thing as conservatism really anymore within the construct of the Republican party. Nobody compared him to Hitler and my view of Donald Trump is plenty nuanced. YOUR perspective gets eroded every single time you dismiss a counterpoint with "orange man bad"...A warped blanket generalization that has no bearing in reality. You can offer as many examples as you want - They pale in comparison to the unprecedented social division, racism, nepotism, fraud and countless other predatory behaviors that were commonplace in the Trump administration. |
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Post by aztecryan on May 13, 2021 19:30:29 GMT -8
That doesn't even remotely address the content of the post. Really? My response addressed the statement that the Dems won everything. That's partly true, but ignores the fact that the Dems came close to losing the House when they were supposed to increase their majority. As for the Senate, the Republicans would now be in control if the Georgia GOP candidate with the most votes in November not been forced into a runoff (which Trump may well have sabotaged with his post election melt-down). In any case, at least two or three Rep Senators who were considered vulnerable held on. With Biden receiving so many more votes that Trump, one would have thought that the Dems would have done better. Yes, the Democrats are now in control. But with the thinnest congressional majority ever for a party winning the White House. That does not seem to restrain them from attempting to be bring about the biggest transformation of the country since . . . well since ever! So, yes, my response did address the post. AzWm No, it didn't. You responded with how well the GOP did in relation to previous elections while not answering anything regarding the new authoritarian/alt-right movement and if you had any concern whatsoever that a political party has become a propaganda machine. The GOP would rather eat their own (Liz Cheney) than sever ties with a egomaniacal narcissist (Donald Trump). |
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Post by johneaztec on May 13, 2021 20:30:36 GMT -8
Really? My response addressed the statement that the Dems won everything. That's partly true, but ignores the fact that the Dems came close to losing the House when they were supposed to increase their majority. As for the Senate, the Republicans would now be in control if the Georgia GOP candidate with the most votes in November not been forced into a runoff (which Trump may well have sabotaged with his post election melt-down). In any case, at least two or three Rep Senators who were considered vulnerable held on. With Biden receiving so many more votes that Trump, one would have thought that the Dems would have done better. Yes, the Democrats are now in control. But with the thinnest congressional majority ever for a party winning the White House. That does not seem to restrain them from attempting to be bring about the biggest transformation of the country since . . . well since ever! So, yes, my response did address the post. AzWm No, it didn't. You responded with how well the GOP did in relation to previous elections while not answering anything regarding the new authoritarian/alt-right movement and if you had any concern whatsoever that a political party has become a propaganda machine. The GOP would rather eat their own (Liz Cheney) than sever ties with a egomaniacal narcissist (Donald Trump). It's odd that 74 million people, or something like that, that voted for Trump, have it all ass backwards and are completely duped by him. Many on here choose to say the people that back Trump are intellectually deficient, racist, and easily duped, amongst a host of other things. I highly doubt ALL 74 million fall in that category, or anywhere near it, and all of that are on both sides anyway. On both sides, they can make compelling arguments for their stances. When some people label others that don't view things the same way they do, a racist, lacking intelligence, and other despicable characteristics, that's when the divide comes in. There's counter arguments to everything. |
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Post by aztecryan on May 13, 2021 21:06:13 GMT -8
No, it didn't. You responded with how well the GOP did in relation to previous elections while not answering anything regarding the new authoritarian/alt-right movement and if you had any concern whatsoever that a political party has become a propaganda machine. The GOP would rather eat their own (Liz Cheney) than sever ties with a egomaniacal narcissist (Donald Trump). It's odd that 74 million people, or something like that, that voted for Trump, have it all ass backwards and are completely duped by him. Many on here choose to say the people that back Trump are intellectually deficient, racist, and easily duped, amongst a host of other things. I highly doubt ALL 74 million fall in that category, or anywhere near it, and all of that are on both sides anyway. On both sides, they can make compelling arguments for their stances. When some people label others that don't view things the same way they do, a racist, lacking intelligence, and other despicable characteristics, that's when the divide comes in. There's counter arguments to everything. It's not odd at all. We have a two party system that results in a binary choice, by default and Trump was the incumbent, albeit the lowest polling incumbent in modern history. Clinton/Biden were particularly weak and vulnerable candidates, too. I don't speak in wandering generalities - But as has been widely pointed out, Trump did remarkably well in his first term with non-educated (lacking knowledge?) Whites (64%/28% advantage) He also did particularly well in rural areas within swing states. Voting demographics in certain areas don't tend to change all that radically. (Rural southern voters, for example). What you fail to grasp here is nobody is labeling Trump or someone who votes for Trump a racist because they disagree with a viewpoint. As has been noted, Trump has an expansive, lengthy history of racially-motivated incidents. That's not conjecture...it's common knowledge. If you can't level with that, that's up to you to decide what it means. The irony of this is nobody seems to have a problem with the denigration of "illegals" here, but when it comes to having to defend Trump, it's a personal attack on someone's intelligence or racial biases. There's seemingly more outrage over immigration than there is over the events of January 6th, for example. Kinda makes you wonder. |
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Post by johneaztec on May 13, 2021 22:15:06 GMT -8
It's odd that 74 million people, or something like that, that voted for Trump, have it all ass backwards and are completely duped by him. Many on here choose to say the people that back Trump are intellectually deficient, racist, and easily duped, amongst a host of other things. I highly doubt ALL 74 million fall in that category, or anywhere near it, and all of that are on both sides anyway. On both sides, they can make compelling arguments for their stances. When some people label others that don't view things the same way they do, a racist, lacking intelligence, and other despicable characteristics, that's when the divide comes in. There's counter arguments to everything. It's not odd at all. We have a two party system that results in a binary choice, by default and Trump was the incumbent, albeit the lowest polling incumbent in modern history. Clinton/Biden were particularly weak and vulnerable candidates, too. I don't speak in wandering generalities - But as has been widely pointed out, Trump did remarkably well in his first term with non-educated (lacking knowledge?) Whites (64%/28% advantage) He also did particularly well in rural areas within swing states. Voting demographics in certain areas don't tend to change all that radically. (Rural southern voters, for example). What you fail to grasp here is nobody is labeling Trump or someone who votes for Trump a racist because they disagree with a viewpoint. As has been noted, Trump has an expansive, lengthy history of racially-motivated incidents. That's not conjecture...it's common knowledge. If you can't level with that, that's up to you to decide what it means. The irony of this is nobody seems to have a problem with the denigration of "illegals" here, but when it comes to having to defend Trump, it's a personal attack on someone's intelligence or racial biases. There's seemingly more outrage over immigration than there is over the events of January 6th, for example. Kinda makes you wonder. Just for the record, I have never denigrated illegals, and I never would. I do believe they should only come to the USA legally just like other Countries standards as well. Also, in my OP, I should have also said people on the outside do this as well, and not just on here. |
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Post by aztecryan on May 13, 2021 22:54:28 GMT -8
It's not odd at all. We have a two party system that results in a binary choice, by default and Trump was the incumbent, albeit the lowest polling incumbent in modern history. Clinton/Biden were particularly weak and vulnerable candidates, too. I don't speak in wandering generalities - But as has been widely pointed out, Trump did remarkably well in his first term with non-educated (lacking knowledge?) Whites (64%/28% advantage) He also did particularly well in rural areas within swing states. Voting demographics in certain areas don't tend to change all that radically. (Rural southern voters, for example). What you fail to grasp here is nobody is labeling Trump or someone who votes for Trump a racist because they disagree with a viewpoint. As has been noted, Trump has an expansive, lengthy history of racially-motivated incidents. That's not conjecture...it's common knowledge. If you can't level with that, that's up to you to decide what it means. The irony of this is nobody seems to have a problem with the denigration of "illegals" here, but when it comes to having to defend Trump, it's a personal attack on someone's intelligence or racial biases. There's seemingly more outrage over immigration than there is over the events of January 6th, for example. Kinda makes you wonder. Just for the record, I have never denigrated illegals, and I never would. I do believe they should only come to the USA legally just like other Countries standards as well. Also, in my OP, I should have also said people on the outside do this as well, and not just on here. Other countries have functional asylum programs. Everyone wants a perfect solution and unfortunately the reality is that it's a complex issue that has lingered for a very, very long time without an adequate procedural overhaul. That doesn't diminish the fact that undocumented immigrants make up a large portion of essential workplace employees across a host of economic sectors and pay taxes just like "documented" citizens. |
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Post by johneaztec on May 14, 2021 0:01:39 GMT -8
Just for the record, I have never denigrated illegals, and I never would. I do believe they should only come to the USA legally just like other Countries standards as well. Also, in my OP, I should have also said people on the outside do this as well, and not just on here. Other countries have functional asylum programs. Everyone wants a perfect solution and unfortunately the reality is that it's a complex issue that has lingered for a very, very long time without an adequate procedural overhaul. That doesn't diminish the fact that undocumented immigrants make up a large portion of essential workplace employees across a host of economic sectors and pay taxes just like "documented" citizens. There's definitely the good and the bad in all equations. I've personally heard undocumented workers say that they could easily kill this person, and then all I have to do is go across the border and they'll never find me. It happens. And, I've had hard working Mexicans that all they do is try to better their situation and send money back to there family. That's why there needs to be accountability and not let everyone simply come over. It would be great if we could weed out the good and bad. It's a little out of control right now. A lot of them had the thought that, hey, Trumps gone, Biden's in he wants everybody to come on over, so let's rush the border. Ugh. |
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Post by sdsustoner on May 14, 2021 3:57:02 GMT -8
That doesn't even remotely address the content of the post. Really? My response addressed the statement that the Dems won everything. That's partly true, but ignores the fact that the Dems came close to losing the House when they were supposed to increase their majority. As for the Senate, the Republicans would now be in control if the Georgia GOP candidate with the most votes in November not been forced into a runoff (which Trump may well have sabotaged with his post election melt-down). In any case, at least two or three Rep Senators who were considered vulnerable held on. With Biden receiving so many more votes that Trump, one would have thought that the Dems would have done better. Yes, the Democrats are now in control. But with the thinnest congressional majority ever for a party winning the White House. That does not seem to restrain them from attempting to be bring about the biggest transformation of the country since . . . well since ever! So, yes, my response did address the post. AzWm Get a grip. The biggest transformation? Bahahaha. You're not even on the right planet. Biden is to the right of Nixon. Biden literally promised nothing will fundamentally change and is delivering on that. The Dems are delivering half-arsed measures at best that don't do squat but reward the ruling class. |
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Post by sdsustoner on May 14, 2021 3:59:41 GMT -8
Other countries have functional asylum programs. Everyone wants a perfect solution and unfortunately the reality is that it's a complex issue that has lingered for a very, very long time without an adequate procedural overhaul. That doesn't diminish the fact that undocumented immigrants make up a large portion of essential workplace employees across a host of economic sectors and pay taxes just like "documented" citizens. There's definitely the good and the bad in all equations. I've personally heard undocumented workers say that they could easily kill this person, and then all I have to do is go across the border and they'll never find me. It happens. And, I've had hard working Mexicans that all they do is try to better their situation and send money back to there family. That's why there needs to be accountability and not let everyone simply come over. It would be great if we could weed out the good and bad. It's a little out of control right now. A lot of them had the thought that, hey, Trumps gone, Biden's in he wants everybody to come on over, so let's rush the border. Ugh. Says your RW propagandists. Dems wouldn't be half bad if they did even a fraction of some of the stuff your propagandists lie about. Biden did not want that. He's got more kids in cages than your orange messiah ever could dream of. |
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Post by sdsustoner on May 14, 2021 4:01:22 GMT -8
I do wanna give Joe credit for unmasking Murica. Way to get us started on Wave 2, Joe. So now we can pin a half million new deaths on you too.
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Post by johneaztec on May 14, 2021 6:48:48 GMT -8
There's definitely the good and the bad in all equations. I've personally heard undocumented workers say that they could easily kill this person, and then all I have to do is go across the border and they'll never find me. It happens. And, I've had hard working Mexicans that all they do is try to better their situation and send money back to there family. That's why there needs to be accountability and not let everyone simply come over. It would be great if we could weed out the good and bad. It's a little out of control right now. A lot of them had the thought that, hey, Trumps gone, Biden's in he wants everybody to come on over, so let's rush the border. Ugh. Says your RW propagandists. Dems wouldn't be half bad if they did even a fraction of some of the stuff your propagandists lie about. Biden did not want that. He's got more kids in cages than your orange messiah ever could dream of. Trump was never my "orange messiah." He was simply the lesser of two evils, and I certainly didn't want Hillary in there. |
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Post by aztecryan on May 14, 2021 8:34:02 GMT -8
Other countries have functional asylum programs. Everyone wants a perfect solution and unfortunately the reality is that it's a complex issue that has lingered for a very, very long time without an adequate procedural overhaul. That doesn't diminish the fact that undocumented immigrants make up a large portion of essential workplace employees across a host of economic sectors and pay taxes just like "documented" citizens. There's definitely the good and the bad in all equations. I've personally heard undocumented workers say that they could easily kill this person, and then all I have to do is go across the border and they'll never find me. It happens. And, I've had hard working Mexicans that all they do is try to better their situation and send money back to there family. That's why there needs to be accountability and not let everyone simply come over. It would be great if we could weed out the good and bad. It's a little out of control right now. A lot of them had the thought that, hey, Trumps gone, Biden's in he wants everybody to come on over, so let's rush the border. Ugh. So you personally know what they were thinking? This is laughable. Remember the caravan of Guatemalans that were on their way a few years ago? Where'd they go? This was "out of control" far before January 20th. It's sensationalized media hype exacerbated by a host of factors, including COVID cases in Latin America. Weeding out the good and the bad is a dystopian fairy tale. Undocumented immigrants don't account for increased crime/violent crimes. |
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Post by johneaztec on May 14, 2021 9:41:42 GMT -8
There's definitely the good and the bad in all equations. I've personally heard undocumented workers say that they could easily kill this person, and then all I have to do is go across the border and they'll never find me. It happens. And, I've had hard working Mexicans that all they do is try to better their situation and send money back to there family. That's why there needs to be accountability and not let everyone simply come over. It would be great if we could weed out the good and bad. It's a little out of control right now. A lot of them had the thought that, hey, Trumps gone, Biden's in he wants everybody to come on over, so let's rush the border. Ugh. So you personally know what they were thinking? This is laughable. Remember the caravan of Guatemalans that were on their way a few years ago? Where'd they go? This was "out of control" far before January 20th. It's sensationalized media hype exacerbated by a host of factors, including COVID cases in Latin America. Weeding out the good and the bad is a dystopian fairy tale. Undocumented immigrants don't account for increased crime/violent crimes. I like how you use "media hype" to fit your thoughts, but when some say it's "media hype" concerning Trump, you quickly mock it. Now, that can be considered laughable. You don't have to be an Einstein to understand that the rush of immigrants once Biden was one, was partially due to the fact that they felt it would be easier and more welcome. Didn't he at one point basically say to come on over? |
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Post by aztecryan on May 14, 2021 10:19:35 GMT -8
So you personally know what they were thinking? This is laughable. Remember the caravan of Guatemalans that were on their way a few years ago? Where'd they go? This was "out of control" far before January 20th. It's sensationalized media hype exacerbated by a host of factors, including COVID cases in Latin America. Weeding out the good and the bad is a dystopian fairy tale. Undocumented immigrants don't account for increased crime/violent crimes. I like how you use "media hype" to fit your thoughts, but when some say it's "media hype" concerning Trump, you quickly mock it. Now, that can be considered laughable. You don't have to be an Einstein to understand that the rush of immigrants once Biden was one, was partially due to the fact that they felt it would be easier and more welcome. Didn't he at one point basically say to come on over? Because I know the difference between a manufactured crisis that has nothing to do with who the president is and an actual crisis like Russian interference in American elections, SolarWinds, pandering to foreign dictators and so on and so forth. And no, that never happened. In fact, he told migrants "DON'T come over." I guess Albert Einstein has left the premises. Fun fact : There were MORE border apprehensions in January/February of 2019 than there were in this year. This is typical activity you see every year in the colder months, with the exception that more children are involved. |
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