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[aztecryan]

Jun 28, 2020 20:24:29 GMT -8 ptsdthor said:

Jun 28, 2020 20:20:16 GMT -8 aztecryan said:

So wait...you think a statue of Jefferson Davis, for example, a notorious slave owner, is the same as a California bear shirt?

I've heard it all.

Yeah, that is what was said

You said Civil War battlefield monuments. So, it kinda is? I mean I see what you're trying to insinuate, but it was poorly framed.

[ptsdthor]

Jun 28, 2020 20:27:50 GMT -8 aztecryan said:

Jun 28, 2020 20:24:29 GMT -8 ptsdthor said:

Yeah, that is what was said

You said Civil War battlefield monuments. So, it kinda is? I mean I see what you're trying to insinuate, but it was poorly framed.

Have you seen a civil war battlefield where a NY Monument is across the field of NC Monument? Are you saying they are something other than statements of state pride? Do you say they are, rather, stealth racist monuments (or only for NC somehow)?

[aztecryan]

Jun 28, 2020 20:34:18 GMT -8 ptsdthor said:

Jun 28, 2020 20:27:50 GMT -8 aztecryan said:

You said Civil War battlefield monuments. So, it kinda is? I mean I see what you're trying to insinuate, but it was poorly framed.

Have you seen a civil war battlefield where a NY Monument is across the field of NC Monument? Are you saying they are something other than statements of state pride? Do you say they are, rather, stealth racist monuments (or only for NC somehow)?

Statues and monuments of slave owners who openly endorsed racism and oppressive ideals don't belong in a modern, progressive society. Without going into semantics here, not all the "monuments" are created equally.

[fisher1fan]

Jun 28, 2020 20:03:42 GMT -8 ptsdthor said:

Jun 28, 2020 19:10:56 GMT -8 fisher1fan said:

www.history.com/.amp/news/how-the-u-s-got-so-many-confederate-monuments

What makes you think the monument makers of the past who put up confederate statues didn’t want to offend? Not even one?

Your claim that none of statues, plagues, monuments had no intend to offend, is laughable. 1,500 symbols and not a single had any intend to offend?!


www.businessinsider.com/confederate-statues-meaning-timeline-history-2017-8%3famp
As you can see in the timeline below, the number of Confederate memorial installations peaked around 1910 — 50 years after the end of the Civil War and at the height of Jim Crow, an era defined by segregation and disenfranchisement laws against black Americans. Confederate installations spiked again in the 1950s and 1960s, during the Civil Rights Movement.

Are you saying that some people were actually trying to say "Hate to be you Indians" when they put up statues of Fr. Serra and Christopher Columbus and were not interested in remembering them specifically or extolling their virtues?

I would suggest that the intent behind the Confederate statues was to extol their regional heroes in a time when they were dealing with a sense of defeat and shame. A feeling unique to the residents of the South. These statues were not denied, even in traditional northern or border states, as an overture of North-South reconciliation and not to stick it to the black community necessarily.

Have you been to a civil war battlefield? You see monuments that show state pride, etc. No different than buying a CA Bear Tee Shirt or I Love NY bumper sticker or Don't Mess with Texas license plate cover. They are not about racial hatred.

And later, when the bases were being named for southern Generals, consider what states of our country provided the highest percentage of volunteers to enlist in the armed services per capita at that time. The Southerner had a unique sense of defeat and were more willing to join as if an attempt to erase that shame. The Confederate General's names on bases were recruiting tools, not necessarily statements of White Supremacy.

The biggest fallacy of the thought police, however, who are now accusing the past statue makers of overt racial hatred is their use of current mores on people who had no exposure to the modern mores whatsoever. Everyone fails at being perfect, even in their own time. How can one survive the test of time with new and changing criteria? Besides being an ex post facto fail, it is absolutely juvenile intellectually but passes for wisdom in Academia.

Here it comes....more thought police...

The battle of liberty statue in New Orleans has a plaque in that has following inscription, added in 1932:

”McEnery and Penn having been elected governor and lieutenant-governor by the white people, were duly installed by this overthrow of carpetbag government, ousting the usurpers, Governor Kellogg (white) and Lieutenant-Governor Antoine (colored). United States troops took over the state government and reinstated the usurpers but the national election of November 1876 recognized white supremacy in the South and gave us our state”.

No “thought police” needed. It clearly states the words “white supremacy” and that plaque has been for over 80 years. I’d love to hear your wisdom.

Should most monuments be removed? no, but some should. Being intellectually honest is okay.

I am supportive of keeping many historical figures and their tributes even if they have checkered legacies.

That being said, some are out and out wrong based on what decade and what’s written or the history. Just because someone could afford a statue doesn’t mean they deserve one, or still do. Having a rational response to unfiltered “white supremacy” should be easy. It exists, more than you realize, an example is this plaque


Also, a lot of the statues or monuments were put up after the 1950s, not to honor the recent soldiers that died in 1865. A bit of research, shows the era of their creation. Here’s the link again,


www.google.com/amp/s/www.businessinsider.com/confederate-statues-meaning-timeline-history-2017-8%3famp


Scroll to the graph for the timeline

[sdsudevil]

UNC Silent Sam Monument Dedication Speech

This is a well-written speech to honor the Daughters of the Confederacy monument to the Confederate soldiers from the University of North Carolina. The UDC was responsible for the fundraising for numerous Confederate monuments across the south. Mr. Julian Carr eloquently spoke about what the monument represents, and it was going well as a read today, until this.

It is true that the snows of winter which never melt, crown our temples, and we realize that we are living in the twilight zone; that it requires no unusual strain to hear the sounds of the tides as they roll and break upon the other shore, “The watch-dog’s bark his deep bay mouth welcome as we draw near home”, breaks upon our ears—makes it doubly sweet to know that we have been remembered in the erection of this beautiful memorial. The present generation, I am persuaded, scarcely takes note of what the Confederate soldier meant to the welfare of the Anglo Saxon race during the four years immediately succeeding the war, when the facts are, that their courage and steadfastness saved the very life of the Anglo Saxon race in the South – When “the bottom rail was on top” all over the Southern states, and to-day, as a consequence the purest strain of the Anglo Saxon is to be found in the 13 Southern States – Praise God.
I trust I may be pardoned for one allusion, howbeit it is rather personal. One hundred yards from where we stand, less than ninety days perhaps after my return from Appomattox, I horse-whipped a negro wench until her skirts hung in shreds, because upon the streets of this quiet village she had publicly insulted and maligned a Southern lady, and then rushed for protection to these University buildings where was stationed a garrison of 100 Federal soldiers. I performed the pleasing duty in the immediate presence of the entire garrison, and for thirty nights afterwards slept with a double-barrel shot gun under my head.

The bottom rail were black people. Somehow black people no longer being slaves was such a problem to the south that they believed that (not even close to) equality for all made them feel that blacks and black supporters were the power group. No wonder Jim Crow was so widespread, and no wonder why they began throwing up all of the monuments. Not to say all are bad, but to say all were erected in complete innocence is inaccurate as well.

[ptsdthor]

Jun 28, 2020 21:34:38 GMT -8 fisher1fan said:

Jun 28, 2020 20:03:42 GMT -8 ptsdthor said:

Are you saying that some people were actually trying to say "Hate to be you Indians" when they put up statues of Fr. Serra and Christopher Columbus and were not interested in remembering them specifically or extolling their virtues?

I would suggest that the intent behind the Confederate statues was to extol their regional heroes in a time when they were dealing with a sense of defeat and shame. A feeling unique to the residents of the South. These statues were not denied, even in traditional northern or border states, as an overture of North-South reconciliation and not to stick it to the black community necessarily.

Have you been to a civil war battlefield? You see monuments that show state pride, etc. No different than buying a CA Bear Tee Shirt or I Love NY bumper sticker or Don't Mess with Texas license plate cover. They are not about racial hatred.

And later, when the bases were being named for southern Generals, consider what states of our country provided the highest percentage of volunteers to enlist in the armed services per capita at that time. The Southerner had a unique sense of defeat and were more willing to join as if an attempt to erase that shame. The Confederate General's names on bases were recruiting tools, not necessarily statements of White Supremacy.

The biggest fallacy of the thought police, however, who are now accusing the past statue makers of overt racial hatred is their use of current mores on people who had no exposure to the modern mores whatsoever. Everyone fails at being perfect, even in their own time. How can one survive the test of time with new and changing criteria? Besides being an ex post facto fail, it is absolutely juvenile intellectually but passes for wisdom in Academia.

Here it comes....more thought police...

The battle of liberty statue in New Orleans has a plaque in that has following inscription, added in 1932:

”McEnery and Penn having been elected governor and lieutenant-governor by the white people, were duly installed by this overthrow of carpetbag government, ousting the usurpers, Governor Kellogg (white) and Lieutenant-Governor Antoine (colored). United States troops took over the state government and reinstated the usurpers but the national election of November 1876 recognized white supremacy in the South and gave us our state”.

No “thought police” needed. It clearly states the words “white supremacy” and that plaque has been for over 80 years. I’d love to hear your wisdom.

Should most monuments be removed? no, but some should. Being intellectually honest is okay.

I am supportive of keeping many historical figures and their tributes even if they have checkered legacies.

That being said, some are out and out wrong based on what decade and what’s written or the history. Just because someone could afford a statue doesn’t mean they deserve one, or still do. Having a rational response to unfiltered “white supremacy” should be easy. It exists, more than you realize, an example is this plaque


Also, a lot of the statues or monuments were put up after the 1950s, not to honor the recent soldiers that died in 1865. A bit of research, shows the era of their creation. Here’s the link again,


www.google.com/amp/s/www.businessinsider.com/confederate-statues-meaning-timeline-history-2017-8%3famp


Scroll to the graph for the timeline

The cause and effect assumptions are just that. You ask a current member of the UDC and they will say their monuments were not about racial hatred but to extol their ancestors who fought for the confederacy. Have you been to small towns in Germany? While the population generally abhors and are ashamed of their NAZI history, they still honor their countrymen who died in WWII (with plaques, monuments, etc). Do you think they were wrong to do that?

As for the obvious outliers, how long has New Orleans, for example, been controlled by Democrat politicians (assuming they gave a rats ... about this subject before now) who could have dealt with it without controversy? The Woke Child Mob running California removed Fr. Serra's statue from the State Capital without issue. While I think it was in response to misguided childish pique, it didn't require red paint, destruction, etc.

And as far as the National Anthem and Sporting Events, do you stand at the playing of the National Anthem? If so, Why? Do you hate people of other races? If your answers were yes, to honor America and no respectively, then you can understand why some might take offense to the obvious offense that is being given by the kneelers. While it is their right to offend/protest, it doesn't change the fact that they are offending many by design and the statue makers generally were not.

And for the idiocy of destroying monuments of founding fathers, past presidents, Columbus, Fr. Serra, White Jesus, etc., is absolutely juvenile, if not bolshevik and criminal, with Democrats politicians & the MSM as accomplices.

[gocoaztec]

Jun 28, 2020 20:20:16 GMT -8 aztecryan said:

Jun 28, 2020 20:03:42 GMT -8 ptsdthor said:

Are you saying that some people were actually trying to say "Hate to be you Indians" when they put up statues of Fr. Serra and Christopher Columbus and were not interested in remembering them specifically or extolling their virtues?

I would suggest that the intent behind the Confederate statues was to extol their regional heroes in a time when they were dealing with a sense of defeat and shame. A feeling unique to the residents of the South. These statues were not denied, even in traditional northern or border states, as an overture of North-South reconciliation and not to stick it to the black community necessarily.

Have you been to a civil war battlefield? You see monuments that show state pride, etc. No different than buying a CA Bear Tee Shirt or I Love NY bumper sticker or Don't Mess with Texas license plate cover. They are not about racial hatred.

And later, when the bases were being named for southern Generals, consider what states of our country provided the highest percentage of volunteers to enlist in the armed services per capita at that time. The Southerner had a unique sense of defeat and were more willing to join as if an attempt to erase that shame. The Confederate General's names on bases were recruiting tools, not necessarily statements of White Supremacy.

The biggest fallacy of the thought police, however, who are now accusing the past statue makers of overt racial hatred is their use of current mores on people who had no exposure to the modern mores whatsoever. Everyone fails at being perfect, even in their own time. How can one survive the test of time with new and changing criteria? Besides being an ex post facto fail, it is absolutely juvenile intellectually but passes for wisdom in Academia.

Here it comes....more thought police...

So wait...you think a statue of Jefferson Davis, for example, a notorious slave owner, is the same as a California bear shirt?

I've heard it all.

www.history.com/news/californias-little-known-genocide
Maybe it’s worse, by your own line of thinking?

360newslasvegas.com/history-101-all-the-confederates-were-democrats/
Why is the Democratic Party still allowed to exist?

There’s an old saying “when you point one finger, there are three fingers pointing back at you.”

[sdsudevil]

Jun 29, 2020 13:48:33 GMT -8 gocoaztec said:

Jun 28, 2020 20:20:16 GMT -8 aztecryan said:

So wait...you think a statue of Jefferson Davis, for example, a notorious slave owner, is the same as a California bear shirt?

I've heard it all.

www.history.com/news/californias-little-known-genocide
Maybe it’s worse, by your own line of thinking?

360newslasvegas.com/history-101-all-the-confederates-were-democrats/
Why is the Democratic Party still allowed to exist?

There’s an old saying “when you point one finger, there are three fingers pointing back at you.”

I would be fine with both parties ceasing to exist. Both are filled with hypocrites, liars, and swindlers.

[Aztec Empire]

Jun 27, 2020 8:52:52 GMT -8 Cwag said:

Jun 27, 2020 8:02:18 GMT -8 Aztec Empire said:

Not sure this original post is really presented very well but there’s a very real point to be understood about the leadership of BLM. They truly are Marxist at the top of the organization, whether self admitted or not you can see it in their ideology and behavior. They don’t actually care about black lives, they care about destroying the culture of the country and seizing as much power as possible. They have taken advantage of good people who want positive change and have turned them into unassuming weapons. There is no end game except one that is full of chaos. It’s like the children’s book, “If you give a mouse a cookie, he’s going to want milk...”

Whitesplaining Black Lives Matter...That's royal.

Whitesplaining... dude no one is defined by our race. Everyone is an individual. I wish you the best, I just see it differently.

[fisher1fan]

Jun 29, 2020 10:21:24 GMT -8 ptsdthor said:

Jun 28, 2020 21:34:38 GMT -8 fisher1fan said:

The battle of liberty statue in New Orleans has a plaque in that has following inscription, added in 1932:

”McEnery and Penn having been elected governor and lieutenant-governor by the white people, were duly installed by this overthrow of carpetbag government, ousting the usurpers, Governor Kellogg (white) and Lieutenant-Governor Antoine (colored). United States troops took over the state government and reinstated the usurpers but the national election of November 1876 recognized white supremacy in the South and gave us our state”.

No “thought police” needed. It clearly states the words “white supremacy” and that plaque has been for over 80 years. I’d love to hear your wisdom.

Should most monuments be removed? no, but some should. Being intellectually honest is okay.

I am supportive of keeping many historical figures and their tributes even if they have checkered legacies.

That being said, some are out and out wrong based on what decade and what’s written or the history. Just because someone could afford a statue doesn’t mean they deserve one, or still do. Having a rational response to unfiltered “white supremacy” should be easy. It exists, more than you realize, an example is this plaque


Also, a lot of the statues or monuments were put up after the 1950s, not to honor the recent soldiers that died in 1865. A bit of research, shows the era of their creation. Here’s the link again,


www.google.com/amp/s/www.businessinsider.com/confederate-statues-meaning-timeline-history-2017-8%3famp


Scroll to the graph for the timeline

The cause and effect assumptions are just that. You ask a current member of the UDC and they will say their monuments were not about racial hatred but to extol their ancestors who fought for the confederacy. Have you been to small towns in Germany? While the population generally abhors and are ashamed of their NAZI history, they still honor their countrymen who died in WWII (with plaques, monuments, etc). Do you think they were wrong to do that?

As for the obvious outliers, how long has New Orleans, for example, been controlled by Democrat politicians (assuming they gave a rats ... about this subject before now) who could have dealt with it without controversy? The Woke Child Mob running California removed Fr. Serra's statue from the State Capital without issue. While I think it was in response to misguided childish pique, it didn't require red paint, destruction, etc.

And as far as the National Anthem and Sporting Events, do you stand at the playing of the National Anthem? If so, Why? Do you hate people of other races? If your answers were yes, to honor America and no respectively, then you can understand why some might take offense to the obvious offense that is being given by the kneelers. While it is their right to offend/protest, it doesn't change the fact that they are offending many by design and the statue makers generally were not.

And for the idiocy of destroying monuments of founding fathers, past presidents, Columbus, Fr. Serra, White Jesus, etc., is absolutely juvenile, if not bolshevik and criminal, with Democrats politicians & the MSM as accomplices.

Yes I have been to Germany and stand.

Your reply to the Statue with obvious white supremacy statement is to speak for an entire group of people (DOC, that you aren’t a member). And maybe it should have been taken down before without public outcry. Public attention doesn’t change the statue’s plaque to better or worse.

Should that racist plaque be removed?

[ptsdthor]

Jun 30, 2020 5:54:51 GMT -8 fisher1fan said:

Jun 29, 2020 10:21:24 GMT -8 ptsdthor said:

The cause and effect assumptions are just that. You ask a current member of the UDC and they will say their monuments were not about racial hatred but to extol their ancestors who fought for the confederacy. Have you been to small towns in Germany? While the population generally abhors and are ashamed of their NAZI history, they still honor their countrymen who died in WWII (with plaques, monuments, etc). Do you think they were wrong to do that?

As for the obvious outliers, how long has New Orleans, for example, been controlled by Democrat politicians (assuming they gave a rats ... about this subject before now) who could have dealt with it without controversy? The Woke Child Mob running California removed Fr. Serra's statue from the State Capital without issue. While I think it was in response to misguided childish pique, it didn't require red paint, destruction, etc.

And as far as the National Anthem and Sporting Events, do you stand at the playing of the National Anthem? If so, Why? Do you hate people of other races? If your answers were yes, to honor America and no respectively, then you can understand why some might take offense to the obvious offense that is being given by the kneelers. While it is their right to offend/protest, it doesn't change the fact that they are offending many by design and the statue makers generally were not.

And for the idiocy of destroying monuments of founding fathers, past presidents, Columbus, Fr. Serra, White Jesus, etc., is absolutely juvenile, if not bolshevik and criminal, with Democrats politicians & the MSM as accomplices.

Yes I have been to Germany and stand.

Your reply to the Statue with obvious white supremacy statement is to speak for an entire group of people (DOC, that you aren’t a member). And maybe it should have been taken down before without public outcry. Public attention doesn’t change the statue’s plaque to better or worse.

Should that racist plaque be removed?

Something offensive like that should be preserved like Dachou or Auschwitz. But if it was a Louisiana eyesore for decades and decades, why wasn't it taken down earlier? Are the Democrat pols simply pandering now but didnt/don't really care about racism at all?

[fisher1fan]

Jun 30, 2020 6:14:56 GMT -8 ptsdthor said:

Jun 30, 2020 5:54:51 GMT -8 fisher1fan said:

Yes I have been to Germany and stand.

Your reply to the Statue with obvious white supremacy statement is to speak for an entire group of people (DOC, that you aren’t a member). And maybe it should have been taken down before without public outcry. Public attention doesn’t change the statue’s plaque to better or worse.

Should that racist plaque be removed?

Something offensive like that should be preserved like Dachou or Auschwitz. But if it was a Louisiana eyesore for decades and decades, why wasn't it taken down earlier? Are the Democrat pols simply pandering now but didnt/don't really care about racism at all?

Honestly, I don’t think this as a political issue. Im tired of us versus them BS.

We can not control the past, so let’s not analyze why change did or didn’t happen. We can impact the future in a positive way, for everyone involved.

By in large, let’s preserve the statues and plaques to learn from...(including Murders and Tyrants, Slave owners, and historic A-holes). Modern day morals now perceive past events as bad is not an apples to apples comparison. That being said (and you agreed) some (or at least one example) was placed with racism motives and likely more due to the time and location placed is a real possibility.

I imagine some art/statues suck and almost no one would want them. If not purchased after a period of time, they can be destroyed. No need to pay to store undesired bad art. Others would be relocated with honor to a nice hall or building for that purpose. A historic torture device once placed in a public square should be kept, not destroyed but can be moved a special location. They are amazing if you want to see them. They don’t need to be on the hilltop or outside of townhall. Just my thoughts.

These are art and should be stored, sold/protected or dedicated to a reserved location for viewing. Just because someone made some ugly or great art does not mean it deserves its exact place or a public setting or the rest of time.

In my opinion, Presidents or people who made significant change to our country deserve statues, where they should be located...I don’t care. A statue doesn’t mean you are perfect. Id love a statue hall of every president, including Nixon/ Obama / Trump (every one) in a location with some history about their achievements. That sounds fun to explore

I think 89% of the ppl (made up number) think destroying these should be a crime, (and it is). It should be punished as much as destroying any art in a museum would be.

I don’t mind intelligent disagreements based on logic, but it doesn’t have to be “Democrats” and “Republicans”. People don’t need to be lumped by party if they support a single issue or not.

[AztecWilliam]

For my part, I think statues honoring Confederate soldiers and govt. officials should be removed from public property. As for the names of military bases, let's rename Bragg, Benning, etc. and give them names of heroes from WWI and WWII. I'm thinking especially of Alvin York and Audie Murphy.

AzWm

[ptsdthor]

With the history of just a decade or so ago, liberals staunchly supported artists like Serrano and Mapplethorpe (who created art considered "offensive" by many standards) and their rights to freedom of speech & expression (even when funded by the US Tax payer), I see a considerable difference now with the current wave of Racist Marxists...excuse me.....Progressives that have no consideration for the artwork they destroy if they consider it offensive. I think Dennis Prager may be onto something when he says "Liberals" and "Leftists" are entirely two different animals.