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Post by aztecwin on Feb 17, 2011 22:00:15 GMT -8
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Post by JOCAZTEC on Feb 17, 2011 22:20:23 GMT -8
Dems. really have sold out to the unions.
SAD
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Post by Montezuma on Feb 18, 2011 6:17:28 GMT -8
Public service unions are a cancer that is killing our economy. States cannot afford to pay for the demands of thid unions. It is time for the taxpayers to revolt and join in with the Tea Party and fiscally conservative republicans in making our voices heard. Funny sidebar: the 19 democratic senators that were missing were found in a Rockford IL Best Western by TeA Party members who eventually chased them back to Wisconsin.
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Post by AlwaysAnAztec on Feb 18, 2011 9:13:21 GMT -8
Listened to a State Senator from Wis. last night. He slipped up. Said that it was not about the budget but was about getting back at the unions who supported the Democrats. Politics pure and simple. Just using the budget as an excuse.
Ya baby, let's get back to the days of the robber barons! Bring in the national guard and break up the unions by shooting into crowds.
Two class society, here we come.
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Post by Yoda on Feb 18, 2011 9:37:08 GMT -8
Labor unions in this country, today, are a bit of an anachronism. Membership is way down from where it was and most of the union members that I know -- which isn't many -- wish that they didn't have to belong because they believe that they are paying dues to support an organization that exists for its management more than for its members.
My feeling is that it will "catch on and spread". The unions have managed to get too much and don't want to give up their gains -- and understandably so. I think that while there may be a mean spirited "getting back" factor at play, the tactic seems to be the best way to break contracts that have to be broken because they are bankrupting the states.
Yoda out...
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Post by aztecwin on Feb 18, 2011 17:20:01 GMT -8
What is happening is getting more interesting as the days go by. Folks in Wisconsin and the rest of the country are seeing just how dedicated the unions are not in the education of our kids. I don't know how the union leadership is able to get those teachers and even the kids to demonstrate. I have a much higher opinion and regard for teachers as people. Maybe it is the mob mentality that liberals are susceptible to engage in.
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Post by inocuace on Feb 18, 2011 19:14:03 GMT -8
Public service unions are a cancer that is killing our economy. States cannot afford to pay for the demands of thid unions. It is time for the taxpayers to revolt and join in with the Tea Party and fiscally conservative republicans in making our voices heard. Funny sidebar: the 19 democratic senators that were missing were found in a Rockford IL Best Western by TeA Party members who eventually chased them back to Wisconsin. In the case of Wisconsin, there genius, Walker and the Republicans created the crisis with the giveaway in tax relief. Unions have done nothing to the economy of Wisconsin. The human being (and I use that term loosely) who is governor is using a trumped up crisis to attack the Wisconsin unions right to bargain. The average teacher in Wisconsin makes $43,000.00 per year and yet the tea party would begrudge them even that. The average mid career level private sector college graduate makes about $80,000.00 Republicans won't require people to pay their fair share-that is the problem with our deficit. The Republicans want us to go to war with every Islamic country on earth. That is the problem with this country. Revolt my butt! |
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Post by aztecwin on Feb 19, 2011 7:43:52 GMT -8
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Post by aztecwin on Feb 19, 2011 8:37:46 GMT -8
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Post by aztecwin on Feb 19, 2011 8:39:51 GMT -8
Listened to a State Senator from Wis. last night. He slipped up. Said that it was not about the budget but was about getting back at the unions who supported the Democrats. Politics pure and simple. Just using the budget as an excuse. Ya baby, let's get back to the days of the robber barons! Bring in the national guard and break up the unions by shooting into crowds. Two class society, here we come. Where did you hear that and was it a Dem trying to legitimize their irresponsible bolt for the border? Who do you think is in charge? Unions? Voters? Who should be in charge? online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704900004576152172777557748.html?mod=djemEditorialPage_h |
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Post by tuff on Feb 19, 2011 12:33:09 GMT -8
Has anyone seen "Saving Superman"? What unions have done to the ranking of our school system directly correlates to the financial mess in all the states. They just aren't realistic about their agenda in today's world. The free lunch crap is history. We are broke.
This will definitely catch on in all the states.
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Post by inocuace on Feb 19, 2011 14:08:43 GMT -8
Has anyone seen "Saving Superman"? What unions have done to the ranking of our school system directly correlates to the financial mess in all the states. They just aren't realistic about their agenda in today's world. The free lunch crap is history. We are broke. This will definitely catch on in all the states. The teachers getting a free lunch is nonsense. The best public schools in this country are D.O.D schools. While the teachers have much to do with that success, I submit that the real reason for the difference is Commanding Officer. With Commanding Officer you get parental involvement. Want a good education? Involve the parents. Unions are not the problem and neither are the teachers. |
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Post by inocuace on Feb 19, 2011 14:16:33 GMT -8
Labor unions in this country, today, are a bit of an anachronism. Membership is way down from where it was and most of the union members that I know -- which isn't many -- wish that they didn't have to belong because they believe that they are paying dues to support an organization that exists for its management more than for its members. My feeling is that it will "catch on and spread". The unions have managed to get too much and don't want to give up their gains -- and understandably so. I think that while there may be a mean spirited "getting back" factor at play, the tactic seems to be the best way to break contracts that have to be broken because they are bankrupting the states. Yoda out... Yes, an anachronism, until they are gone. Just what will an individual do when faced with management then? I know. Get screwed. I do not want business running this country. I do not trust them. They do not act in anyone's best interest but there own. I wish just one conservative would tell me what social good any business does that is not forced on them, by some external force. Because any social responsibility reduces their bottom line and they are not in business to be good citizens. That is not their purpose. They make money and are good for nothing else unless it is forced on them by a market, reputation or regulation. Business is not patriotic, it does not care about their workers or their market, unless some pressure is applied to them. They are not moral they are not civic minded - they are profit makers. |
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Post by Yoda on Feb 19, 2011 14:58:17 GMT -8
Yes, an anachronism, until they are gone. Just what will an individual do when faced with management then? I know. Get screwed. I do not want business running this country. I do not trust them. They do not act in anyone's best interest but there own. I wish just one conservative would tell me what social good any business does that is not forced on them, by some external force. Because any social responsibility reduces their bottom line and they are not in business to be good citizens. That is not their purpose. They make money and are good for nothing else unless it is forced on them by a market, reputation or regulation. Business is not patriotic, it does not care about their workers or their market, unless some pressure is applied to them. They are not moral they are not civic minded - they are profit makers. But in pretty much all the respects that you mentioned, unions are no different than businesses. In fact, they are businesses. I didn't suggest outlawing unions; I'm suggesting that they are losing members because they no longer providing significant value to their members. "Business", for all its failings, is apparently meeting those needs sufficiently that union members no longer think that they need unions. Not entirely, of course, but much more so than in the past. Personally, I don't think that either big business or unions are particularly interested in promoting social good. The promotion of social good is, to a great extent, an accidental by product of efforts to promote a favorable public image. Yes, I'm a big time cynic. Oh, and I'm not a conservative. As I've said before, I consider myself to be radically moderate -- although the right wingers here 'bouts consider me to be a damn liberal. Yoda out... |
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Post by inocuace on Feb 19, 2011 15:15:47 GMT -8
Yes, an anachronism, until they are gone. Just what will an individual do when faced with management then? I know. Get screwed. I do not want business running this country. I do not trust them. They do not act in anyone's best interest but there own. I wish just one conservative would tell me what social good any business does that is not forced on them, by some external force. Because any social responsibility reduces their bottom line and they are not in business to be good citizens. That is not their purpose. They make money and are good for nothing else unless it is forced on them by a market, reputation or regulation. Business is not patriotic, it does not care about their workers or their market, unless some pressure is applied to them. They are not moral they are not civic minded - they are profit makers. But in pretty much all the respects that you mentioned, unions are no different than businesses. In fact, they are businesses. I didn't suggest outlawing unions; I'm suggesting that they are losing members because they no longer providing significant value to their members. "Business", for all its failings, is apparently meeting those needs sufficiently that union members no longer think that they need unions. Not entirely, of course, but much more so than in the past. Personally, I don't think that either big business or unions are particularly interested in promoting social good. The promotion of social good is, to a great extent, an accidental by product of efforts to promote a favorable public image. Yes, I'm a big time cynic. Oh, and I'm not a conservative. As I've said before, I consider myself to be radically moderate -- although the right wingers here 'bouts consider me to be a damn liberal. Yoda out... "I didn't suggest outlawing unions; I'm suggesting that they are losing members because they no longer providing significant value to their members." I disagree. External forces are at work against unions. You will note that as union membership has declined real wages have stagnated. As unions have recently begun a steep decline, you can also see a corresponding decline in real wages. They provide value to their employees, but they have been right to worked, China'd, pressed by law and lambasted buy those business people who are by no means paragons of patriotism or people's rights. |
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Post by Yoda on Feb 19, 2011 15:45:33 GMT -8
I disagree. External forces are at work against unions. You will note that as union membership has declined real wages have stagnated. As unions have recently begun a steep decline, you can also see a corresponding decline in real wages. They provide value to their employees, but they have been right to worked, China'd, pressed by law and lambasted buy those business people who are by no means paragons of patriotism or people's rights. Also, as union membership has declined, global warming has increased -- my point being that the two events you cite are not necessarily related. My own opinion is that a decline in unionization has no real relationship to the stagnation of wages. Free trade is probably a bigger factor. Wages are a function of supply and demand and the supply of workers now comes from more of a world wide pool of workers. That supply has grown at a faster rate than has the demand for the products that unionized workers manufacture. In this country, we're becoming less of a manufacturing driven economy and more of a service economy. Also, wages go up when inflation goes up and we've had low inflation for quite some time. Yoda out... |
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Post by inocuace on Feb 19, 2011 17:11:50 GMT -8
I disagree. External forces are at work against unions. You will note that as union membership has declined real wages have stagnated. As unions have recently begun a steep decline, you can also see a corresponding decline in real wages. They provide value to their employees, but they have been right to worked, China'd, pressed by law and lambasted buy those business people who are by no means paragons of patriotism or people's rights. Also, as union membership has declined, global warming has increased -- my point being that the two events you cite are not necessarily related. My own opinion is that a decline in unionization has no real relationship to the stagnation of wages. Free trade is probably a bigger factor. Wages are a function of supply and demand and the supply of workers now comes from more of a world wide pool of workers. That supply has grown at a faster rate than has the demand for the products that unionized workers manufacture. In this country, we're becoming less of a manufacturing driven economy and more of a service economy. Also, wages go up when inflation goes up and we've had low inflation for quite some time. Yoda out... No No No. Inflation is not the reason real wages improve. Wages should go up as productivity goes up, right Yoda? Productivity is up but wages are not. Unions have historically fought so that workers got a share of the results of productivity improvement. Inflation adjustments simply maintain the status quo. Real wages are down and they have been since I was a kid. Did your mother work? Does your wife? So the loss of unions and lower wages are related. Globalization gave companies a way to force unions into submission. (at least one) Relatively speaking it is better for a worker (from their own perspective) to be represented by a union than not, don't you agree with that? Unions are not an anachronism, Yoda, You are just buying the conservative line. |
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Post by tuff on Feb 19, 2011 20:32:15 GMT -8
Has anyone seen "Saving Superman"? What unions have done to the ranking of our school system directly correlates to the financial mess in all the states. They just aren't realistic about their agenda in today's world. The free lunch crap is history. We are broke. This will definitely catch on in all the states. The teachers getting a free lunch is nonsense. The best public schools in this country are D.O.D schools. While the teachers have much to do with that success, I submit that the real reason for the difference is Commanding Officer. With Commanding Officer you get parental involvement. Want a good education? Involve the parents. Unions are not the problem and neither are the teachers. Then you did not see the documentary. We used to be 1st in the world, now we are 48th. Unions don;t want parents involved. Otherwise, they would demand accountability. Why do private schools, and the newer charter schools today, beat out the public schools in overall ranking? Because there is a solid curriculum, discipline and parental involvement. There are no unions.Thank God. Anyways, go see the movie then get back to me. |
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Post by aztec70 on Feb 19, 2011 21:07:39 GMT -8
The teachers getting a free lunch is nonsense. The best public schools in this country are D.O.D schools. While the teachers have much to do with that success, I submit that the real reason for the difference is Commanding Officer. With Commanding Officer you get parental involvement. Want a good education? Involve the parents. Unions are not the problem and neither are the teachers. Then you did not see the documentary. We used to be 1st in the world, now we are 48th. Unions don;t want parents involved. Otherwise, they would demand accountability. Why do private schools, and the newer charter schools today, beat out the public schools in overall ranking? Because there is a solid curriculum, discipline and parental involvement. There are no unions.Thank God. Anyways, go see the movie then get back to me. It is my opinion the the economic status of the family is the most important factor for student success. If you look at the high schools in SDUSD the best are in high income neighborhoods, the worst in the poorest. There is no comparing the test scoresof La Jolla High and Hoover High. If you traded student bodys between the schools Hoover's scores would rise, La Jolla's would fall. Same physical plant, same teacher's, just different students. Private schools are much the same. The also get to chose their students. If Lincoln High got the student body of Francis Parker their scores would go up. If Francis Parker got the student body of Lincoln, Parker's scores would drop. I am not saying that there are not successful students at schools with poor test scores or no failing students at good schools. I am speaking in general terms. |
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Post by Yoda on Feb 19, 2011 21:59:28 GMT -8
"Also, wages go up when inflation goes up and we've had low inflation for quite some time." No No No. Inflation is not the reason real wages improve. Wages should go up as productivity goes up, right Yoda? Productivity is up but wages are not. Unions have historically fought so that workers got a share of the results of productivity improvement. Inflation adjustments simply maintain the status quo. Real wages are down and they have been since I was a kid. Did your mother work? Does your wife? So the loss of unions and lower wages are related. Globalization gave companies a way to force unions into submission. (at least one) Relatively speaking it is better for a worker (from their own perspective) to be represented by a union than not, don't you agree with that? Unions are not an anachronism, Yoda, You are just buying the conservative line. A society's standard of living goes up as productivity goes up. I don't believe that there is a direct connection between productivity and and wages, however. The price of human labor, like the price of any other resource, is a function of supply and demand. Yoda out... |
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