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Post by ptsdthor on Feb 25, 2011 20:58:40 GMT -8
I readily doubt that Wisconsin's K-12 teachers working in private schools make $80,000 salary on average, so until you provide authoritative data on that, I can only conclude you are wrong or purposefully mixing apples and oranges to avoid the truth of matter. And just for grins, try mutliplying your claimed median Government teacher salary by the reported 1.742 multiple to obtain the estimated total benefits package and see how close it comes to some of the numbers listed above. Close enough for Government work  The $80,000 figure is for mid career college graduates in any profession nationally. The average for teachers in Wisconsin is $46, 390. The point was the Union member IN WISCONSIN makes more than his/her private sector counterpart. The key words being "Wisconsin" and "Private Sector Counterpart". No one said that a Wisconsin teacher makes more more money than a NY doctor, so why in the heck did you include a NY Doctor's salary in calculating your comparative average? Again, I must conclude that you are pulling out red herrings to avoid admitting the obvious. |
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Post by inocuace on Feb 25, 2011 21:22:30 GMT -8
The $80,000 figure is for mid career college graduates in any profession nationally. The average for teachers in Wisconsin is $46, 390. The point was the Union member IN WISCONSIN makes more than his/her private sector counterpart. The key words being "Wisconsin" and "Private Sector Counterpart". No one said that a Wisconsin teacher makes more more money than a NY doctor, so why in the heck did you include a NY Doctor's salary in calculating your comparative average? Again, I must conclude that you are pulling out red herrings to avoid admitting the obvious. You have not proven that. "No one said that a Wisconsin teacher makes more more money than a NY doctor, so why in the heck did you include a NY Doctor's salary in calculating your comparative average? " I compared a Wisconsin's teacher's salary to a mid career college graduate, regardless of job. The $80,000.00 figure is a national average. If a teacher is a college graduate and they make less than the mid career college graduate in any job, then why is their degree and experience worth less than anyone else? Why shouldn't they make $80,000 too? Where did you get NY doctors? I guarantee you, New York Doctors, who are Phds, make much more than $80,000 per year. The average doctor makes in the 150,000 range, nationally. |
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Post by inocuace on Feb 25, 2011 21:58:38 GMT -8
Yes, an anachronism, until they are gone. Just what will an individual do when faced with management then? I know. Get screwed. I do not want business running this country. I do not trust them. They do not act in anyone's best interest but there own. I wish just one conservative would tell me what social good any business does that is not forced on them, by some external force. Because any social responsibility reduces their bottom line and they are not in business to be good citizens. That is not their purpose. They make money and are good for nothing else unless it is forced on them by a market, reputation or regulation. Business is not patriotic, it does not care about their workers or their market, unless some pressure is applied to them. They are not moral they are not civic minded - they are profit makers. But in pretty much all the respects that you mentioned, unions are no different than businesses. In fact, they are businesses. I didn't suggest outlawing unions; I'm suggesting that they are losing members because they no longer providing significant value to their members. "Business", for all its failings, is apparently meeting those needs sufficiently that union members no longer think that they need unions. Not entirely, of course, but much more so than in the past. Personally, I don't think that either big business or unions are particularly interested in promoting social good. The promotion of social good is, to a great extent, an accidental by product of efforts to promote a favorable public image. Yes, I'm a big time cynic. Oh, and I'm not a conservative. As I've said before, I consider myself to be radically moderate -- although the right wingers here 'bouts consider me to be a damn liberal. Yoda out... And I say, business exists to profit. Unions exist (however imperfectly) to give their members bargaining power. You are no liberal. I am a liberal. And I am proud of it every time I draw a breath. |
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Post by ptsdthor on Feb 25, 2011 23:39:31 GMT -8
The point was the Union member IN WISCONSIN makes more than his/her private sector counterpart. The key words being "Wisconsin" and "Private Sector Counterpart". No one said that a Wisconsin teacher makes more more money than a NY doctor, so why in the heck did you include a NY Doctor's salary in calculating your comparative average? Again, I must conclude that you are pulling out red herrings to avoid admitting the obvious. You have not proven that. "No one said that a Wisconsin teacher makes more more money than a NY doctor, so why in the heck did you include a NY Doctor's salary in calculating your comparative average? " I compared a Wisconsin's teacher's salary to a mid career college graduate, regardless of job. The $80,000.00 figure is a national average. If a teacher is a college graduate and they make less than the mid career college graduate in any job, then why is their degree and experience worth less than anyone else? Why shouldn't they make $80,000 too? Where did you get NY doctors? I guarantee you, New York Doctors, who are Phds, make much more than $80,000 per year. The average doctor makes in the 150,000 range, nationally. For some reason, you are debating teachers salaries in Wisconsin on average versus what mid career college graduates nationally make in salary on average. What does that have to do with the price of eggs in London, with this thread or my post? Neither the thread nor my post debates the fact that some people outside of Wisconsin may or may not make more than Unionized teachers in Wisconsin. What they do contend, however, is that Wisconsin's Union members make more than their private sector counterparts and irrelevant tangents will not refute that assertion. And just so we are clear, the article and the post were discussing Public Union teachers salaries versus their non-Union private school teacher counterparts. Not brain surgeons, not lawyers, not people in San Francisco or Boston. Did you even read the part about the Wisconsin Public Union Bus Drivers vs Wisconsin non-Union private company bus drivers? |
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Post by inocuace on Feb 26, 2011 8:05:09 GMT -8
"The point was the Union member IN WISCONSIN makes more than his/her private sector counterpart."You have not proven that. "No one said that a Wisconsin teacher makes more more money than a NY doctor, so why in the heck did you include a NY Doctor's salary in calculating your comparative average? " I compared a Wisconsin's teacher's salary to a mid career college graduate, regardless of job. The $80,000.00 figure is a national average. If a teacher is a college graduate and they make less than the mid career college graduate in any job, then why is their degree and experience worth less than anyone else? Why shouldn't they make $80,000 too? Where did you get NY doctors? I guarantee you, New York Doctors, who are Phds, make much more than $80,000 per year. The average doctor makes in the 150,000 range, nationally. For some reason, you are debating teachers salaries in Wisconsin on average versus what mid career college graduates nationally make in salary on average. What does that have to do with the price of eggs in London, with this thread or my post? Neither the thread nor my post debates the fact that some people outside of Wisconsin may or may not make more than Unionized teachers in Wisconsin. What they do contend, however, is that Wisconsin's Union members make more than their private sector counterparts and irrelevant tangents will not refute that assertion. And just so we are clear, the article and the post were discussing Public Union teachers salaries versus their non-Union private school teacher counterparts. Not brain surgeons, not lawyers, not people in San Francisco or Boston. Did you even read the part about the Wisconsin Public Union Bus Drivers vs Wisconsin non-Union private company bus drivers? Ok The information I found does not support your contention that private school teachers make less in salary than public school teachers in Wisconsin. I compared and found that they are close. The average for teachers in Wisconsin is $46, 390. The average Private secondary school teacher in Hudson WI makes $49.380.00 Hudson WI is a suburb of Minneapolis St. Paul (Minnesota), so it should be roughly representative. www.cbsalary.com/salary_chart.aspx?specialty=Private+Teacher+Secondary+School&cty=Hudson&sid=WI&kw=Private+Teacher&jn=jn031&edu=&tid=66419Wisconsin ranked 26th in the nation for its average teacher salary in 2006-07, according to the American Federation of Teachers’ (AFT) Survey and Analysis of Teacher Salary Trends 2007. The average teacher salary in Wisconsin for the 2006-07 school year was $46,707-a 3.3 percent increase from the previous year. Wisconsin was ranked 30th in the nation for beginning teacher salaries, at $31,588. In Wisconsin, the average salary for charter school teachers was $42,490; beginning charter school teachers’ salaries averaged $32,773. www.k12jobs.com/teaching_jobs_resources/Wisconsin_teacher_jobs.phpAnd just to make you happy I checked the actual teacher salaries for the Lake Geneva school district. If you don't know where Lake Geneva WI is look it up. I had friends there and my niece lives near there. The benefits average around 40% and not the 100% foisted in the source at the beginning of the thread. dpi.state.wi.us/lbstat/pdf/asr04_pt4.pdfI have a problem with your premise that public school teachers make more than private school teachers. Since I attended private schools I know that the requirements for teacher hiring are not the same for those at public schools. My private schools had younger teachers who were just starting out. That was not the case at the public schools. Unless you can tell me what the specific requirements of each school is, your argument comparing private with public schools is specious. I will add that teacher salaries, when compared to people in Wisconsin by the same education, teachers make less money. Since educational attainment is probably fungible - a person with a degree in a job from University Of Wisconsin, Parkside will on average do as well as one who went to U.Of Wisconsin, Superior, then teachers don't get paid as well for the same education as other people with the same education. I would say that is true for private school teachers as well as public school teachers. Which brings me to what I think your real point is. You think public school teachers make too much, especially if they are in unions. You hate unions. I think it is fair to compare teacher salaries to others with the same education both inside and outside Wisconsin and I think the comparison of private school and public school teachers needs to be carefully reviewed to make sure the requirements for hire are the same. I find that comparing benefits is also risky, because benefits are so different for people in teaching as benefits are in all employee contexts. But the 100% benefits figure appears to be a gross exaggeration written by a conservative with an agenda. But, again, the real issue is that you don't like the unionized Wisconsin teachers because they are standing up for themselves in the face of what I consider an unfair attack. You don't like taxes and you will vilify anyone who receives a salary from them so that you can pay less. That is the real point. You want to pay no taxes. Who cares, in your mind, if the kids get a decent education. Teachers in Wisconsin work hard as do teachers everywhere. If teaching were the gravy train you and your selfish cohort believed, everyone would be clamoring to get into the field. Yet the statistics say that teaching is one of the most grinding professions to be found. And what ever we pay teachers in Wisconsin, or anywhere else it is not nearly frigging enough. I bet you make more than a teacher. As to whether you are worth what you are paid is happily someone else's problem. |
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Post by Yoda on Feb 26, 2011 9:32:34 GMT -8
And I say, business exists to profit. Unions exist (however imperfectly) to give their members bargaining power. You are no liberal. I am a liberal. And I am proud of it every time I draw a breath. [/quote] As I said elsewhere in the thread, I think that the union business is no different than any other big business. It exists (first) to perpetuate itself, (second) to perpetuate its management and (third) to serve the interests of its stakeholders (stockholders and members). Attributing a noble purpose to unions in this country makes no more sense than does attributing a noble purpose to the phone company. Thanks for the street cred there on the conservative vs. liberal continuum. To many on this board, I'm a damn liberal because moderates are to the political left of the extreme right and everybody who isn't extreme right is a damn liberal. I'm curious as to why you take pride in being liberal. It's a set of opinions, not an accomplishment. While it's not the same biological accident, it's kind of like taking pride in having blue eyes. Yoda out... |
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Post by inocuace on Feb 26, 2011 10:00:47 GMT -8
And I say, business exists to profit. Unions exist (however imperfectly) to give their members bargaining power. You are no liberal. I am a liberal. And I am proud of it every time I draw a breath. As I said elsewhere in the thread, I think that the union business is no different than any other big business. It exists (first) to perpetuate itself, (second) to perpetuate its management and (third) to serve the interests of its stakeholders (stockholders and members). Attributing a noble purpose to unions in this country makes no more sense than does attributing a noble purpose to the phone company. Thanks for the street cred there on the conservative vs. liberal continuum. To many on this board, I'm a damn liberal because moderates are to the political left of the extreme right and everybody who isn't extreme right is a damn liberal. I'm curious as to why you take pride in being liberal. It's a set of opinions, not an accomplishment. While it's not the same biological accident, it's kind of like taking pride in having blue eyes. Yoda out...[/quote] |
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Post by inocuace on Feb 26, 2011 10:04:35 GMT -8
And I say, business exists to profit. Unions exist (however imperfectly) to give their members bargaining power. You are no liberal. I am a liberal. And I am proud of it every time I draw a breath. As I said elsewhere in the thread, I think that the union business is no different than any other big business. It exists (first) to perpetuate itself, (second) to perpetuate its management and (third) to serve the interests of its stakeholders (stockholders and members). Attributing a noble purpose to unions in this country makes no more sense than does attributing a noble purpose to the phone company. Thanks for the street cred there on the conservative vs. liberal continuum. To many on this board, I'm a damn liberal because moderates are to the political left of the extreme right and everybody who isn't extreme right is a damn liberal. I'm curious as to why you take pride in being liberal. It's a set of opinions, not an accomplishment. While it's not the same biological accident, it's kind of like taking pride in having blue eyes. Yoda out... Unions have contributed mightily to this society. I do not say that unions are perfect. I say that conservatives will criticize unions when business is as corrupt as they say unions are. I think that there is a conclusion to be drawn from the basic premise of a business as opposed to the basic reason why unions exist. Unions exist to give employees some voice in how profits derived from their work are allocated. I would say that with out unions, there is not a shred of evidence that business would act altruistically. In fact history shows the opposite. Unions are necessary. As to being proud to be a liberal, comparing it to a genetic attribute makes no sense. I wasn't born with it. My liberalism is a value system and conclusion drawn from my education, experience, observations and study. I have put a real effort into that understanding. I am observant and I see the consequences of various belief systems. My liberalism is a result of trying to make sense of what is going on around me. That takes work. It takes thought. It is not an effortless gift of genetics. To characterize it that way is to deny the effort it takes to develop and live according to a value system. |
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Post by aztecwin on Feb 26, 2011 10:22:59 GMT -8
Where is a comparison of total compensation? At any rate, we are getting side-tracked. |
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Post by Yoda on Feb 26, 2011 12:00:41 GMT -8
Unions have contributed mightily to this society. I do not say that unions are perfect. I say that conservatives will criticize unions when business is as corrupt as they say unions are. I think that there is a conclusion to be drawn from the basic premise of a business as opposed to the basic reason why unions exist. Unions exist to give employees some voice in how profits derived from their work are allocated. I would say that with out unions, there is not a shred of evidence that business would act altruistically. In fact history shows the opposite. Unions are necessary. As to being proud to be a liberal, comparing it to a genetic attribute makes no sense. I wasn't born with it. My liberalism is a value system and conclusion drawn from my education, experience, observations and study. I have put a real effort into that understanding. I am observant and I see the consequences of various belief systems. My liberalism is a result of trying to make sense of what is going on around me. That takes work. It takes thought. It is not an effortless gift of genetics. To characterize it that way is to deny the effort it takes to develop and live according to a value system. I agree that "unions have contributed mightily to this society". I already gave them credit for having been the driving force behind work comp, workplace safety, social security and the like. But those are in the past; I don't think that they contribute very much at all now. As I said, to an extent, they are a victim of their own success. That's why I called them an "anachronism". As for taking pride in your liberalism, fine -- take pride in it. But at the end of the day, it is still a group of opinions -- not accomplishments. Sorry but I just don't see where holding an opinion justifies pride. I'll give you an example. I had an employee who signed up for health insurance for herself (as the sole breadwinner) and her son but who decided that she could not afford to pay the 20% that we required to insure her husband. When I realized that she wasn't insuring her husband, I went to her and told her that I would give her a raise that was equal to her husbands medical insurance premium, provided that she used that raise to purchase health coverage for him. She took me up on it. Two months later, he was in an auto accident and was injured quite severely. They had to airlift him by helicopter across Puget Sound. Medical bills ran close to $100,000. I believe -- meaning it is my opinion -- that people should have medical insurance. And I take great pride in having contributed to his recovery and to the well being of that family. But my pride doesn't spring from holding an opinion. Pride springs from the accomplishment -- from acting on that opinion. Pride springs from what you do, not from what you believe. Besides, opinions they say, are like a**holes -- everybody has one. So if my blue eyes example doesn't work for you, then try a different body part. Yoda out... |
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Post by aztec70 on Feb 26, 2011 16:47:38 GMT -8
Clearly something is out of whack in Wisconsin if the prevailing wisdom is that people go to public service for security and not to get rich. No doubt the combination of wages and benefits puts Wisconsin's public employees well ahead of their private industry counterparts (See Bus Drivers data below for example). If the average Joe didn't pay a dime for their medical and retirement, just think of how much extra money they might have with each pay day. As the article shows, the Union has improved their stake over the years as the political climate allows. So if you listen to them now, they say "I'll contribute to my retirement and health care, but don't stop me from striking for changes to my health care and retirement benefits later". Once the heat is died down and Union backed pols take over again, those changes will be improved on for the rank and file - one strike is all it will take if not thrown at their feet after the election for the campaign contributions. Just look to all the crony deals coming out of the Obama admin now if you doubt me. Revising their CBA seems very reasonable to me. online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703408604576164290717724956.htmlLook at what 9 months of work gets you in Wisconsin.... And this may explains why a survey revealed that 81% of the Wisconsin people are sided with the Governor!!!! ATTACHED: This is the official excel DPI database of teachers wages by school district. The current budget repair bill would have them paying about 5.8% toward their own retirement....right now, we the taxpayer, pays 100% of their generous retirement, and most of us pay 100% of our own retirement too. AVERAGE WAGE AND BENEFITS (remember this is for about 9 months of work) TEACHERS: Milwaukee $86,297 Elmbrook $91,065 Germantown $83,818 Hartland Arrwhd $90,285 (highest teacher was $122,952-lowest was $64,942) Men Falls $81,099 West Bend $82,153 Waukesha $92,902 Sussex $82,956 Mequon $95,297 Kettle Mor $87,676 Muskego $91,341 STAFF: Arrowhead - Bus Mng - Kopecky - $169,525 Arrowhead - Principal - Wieczorek - $152,519 Grmtwn - Asst Princ - Dave Towers - $123,222 Elmbrk - Burliegh Elemetary - Principal Zahn- $142,315 (for a primary school!!) Madison - Asst Principal - McGrath - $127,835 UNIVERSITY of WISCONSIN STAFF (2009) (salary alone): Michael Knetter - Prof of Bus - $327,828 Carolyn Martin -Chancellor Mad- $437,000 Hector Deluca - Prof of Nutritional Science - $254,877 (really??) (source:Madison.com -as the UW removed salaries from being posted online in 2007- why if they are so low?) How about some other "public servant job"  What do they make? Madison Garbage men (2009) (salary only): Garbageman, Mr. Nelson earned $159,258 in 2009, including $109,892 in overtime and other pay. Garbageman, Greg Tatman, who earned $125,598 7 Madison garbage men made over $100,000 30 Madison garbage men made over $70,000 MILWAUKEE CITY BUS DRIVERS (salary only): 136 Drivers made more than $70,000 54 Drivers made more than $80,000 18 Drivers made more than $90,000 8 Drivers made more than $100,000 Top Driver made $117,000 (Source WTMJ) Compare this to the average private bus driver making $9-13 an hour (about 20,000 yr) with no pension, or healthcare.) Oh, I forgot, its not about power and extorting money for the few from the many under political cover from the Democrats, its about the middle class.  Hey, has anyone seen where Wisconsin misplaced 14 State Senators? Could they be in someone's pocket? Do you also advocate that unfunded Federal pensions and unfunded healthcare with no retiree input, like aztecwin's, also be changed? |
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Post by aztecwin on Feb 26, 2011 17:10:21 GMT -8
Clearly something is out of whack in Wisconsin if the prevailing wisdom is that people go to public service for security and not to get rich. No doubt the combination of wages and benefits puts Wisconsin's public employees well ahead of their private industry counterparts (See Bus Drivers data below for example). If the average Joe didn't pay a dime for their medical and retirement, just think of how much extra money they might have with each pay day. As the article shows, the Union has improved their stake over the years as the political climate allows. So if you listen to them now, they say "I'll contribute to my retirement and health care, but don't stop me from striking for changes to my health care and retirement benefits later". Once the heat is died down and Union backed pols take over again, those changes will be improved on for the rank and file - one strike is all it will take if not thrown at their feet after the election for the campaign contributions. Just look to all the crony deals coming out of the Obama admin now if you doubt me. Revising their CBA seems very reasonable to me. online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703408604576164290717724956.htmlLook at what 9 months of work gets you in Wisconsin.... And this may explains why a survey revealed that 81% of the Wisconsin people are sided with the Governor!!!! ATTACHED: This is the official excel DPI database of teachers wages by school district. The current budget repair bill would have them paying about 5.8% toward their own retirement....right now, we the taxpayer, pays 100% of their generous retirement, and most of us pay 100% of our own retirement too. AVERAGE WAGE AND BENEFITS (remember this is for about 9 months of work) TEACHERS: Milwaukee $86,297 Elmbrook $91,065 Germantown $83,818 Hartland Arrwhd $90,285 (highest teacher was $122,952-lowest was $64,942) Men Falls $81,099 West Bend $82,153 Waukesha $92,902 Sussex $82,956 Mequon $95,297 Kettle Mor $87,676 Muskego $91,341 STAFF: Arrowhead - Bus Mng - Kopecky - $169,525 Arrowhead - Principal - Wieczorek - $152,519 Grmtwn - Asst Princ - Dave Towers - $123,222 Elmbrk - Burliegh Elemetary - Principal Zahn- $142,315 (for a primary school!!) Madison - Asst Principal - McGrath - $127,835 UNIVERSITY of WISCONSIN STAFF (2009) (salary alone): Michael Knetter - Prof of Bus - $327,828 Carolyn Martin -Chancellor Mad- $437,000 Hector Deluca - Prof of Nutritional Science - $254,877 (really??) (source:Madison.com -as the UW removed salaries from being posted online in 2007- why if they are so low?) How about some other "public servant job" What do they make? Madison Garbage men (2009) (salary only): Garbageman, Mr. Nelson earned $159,258 in 2009, including $109,892 in overtime and other pay. Garbageman, Greg Tatman, who earned $125,598 7 Madison garbage men made over $100,000 30 Madison garbage men made over $70,000 MILWAUKEE CITY BUS DRIVERS (salary only): 136 Drivers made more than $70,000 54 Drivers made more than $80,000 18 Drivers made more than $90,000 8 Drivers made more than $100,000 Top Driver made $117,000 (Source WTMJ) Compare this to the average private bus driver making $9-13 an hour (about 20,000 yr) with no pension, or healthcare.) Oh, I forgot, its not about power and extorting money for the few from the many under political cover from the Democrats, its about the middle class. Hey, has anyone seen where Wisconsin misplaced 14 State Senators? Could they be in someone's pocket? Do you also advocate that unfunded Federal pensions and unfunded healthcare with no retiree input, like aztecwin's, also be changed? I would go for means testing and/or a one time huge tax bill to fund all retirement liability. We need a flat tax bill introduced this year. To much of our income and time is wasted on tax preparers who seldom get it right anyway. |
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Post by aztec70 on Feb 26, 2011 17:32:47 GMT -8
Oh, did I annoy you?  |
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Post by aztec70 on Feb 26, 2011 17:49:13 GMT -8
[/quote] I would go for means testing and/or a one time huge tax bill to fund all retirement liability. We need a flat tax bill introduced this year. To much of our income and time is wasted on tax preparers who seldom get it right anyway. [/quote] All right. How big do you propose that one time tax bill be? Means testing? Just how would that work? As to tax preparers not getting it right, I seem to get it right often enough that my clients keep coming back.
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Post by ptsdthor on Feb 26, 2011 20:47:37 GMT -8
For some reason, you are debating teachers salaries in Wisconsin on average versus what mid career college graduates nationally make in salary on average. What does that have to do with the price of eggs in London, with this thread or my post? Neither the thread nor my post debates the fact that some people outside of Wisconsin may or may not make more than Unionized teachers in Wisconsin. What they do contend, however, is that Wisconsin's Union members make more than their private sector counterparts and irrelevant tangents will not refute that assertion. And just so we are clear, the article and the post were discussing Public Union teachers salaries versus their non-Union private school teacher counterparts. Not brain surgeons, not lawyers, not people in San Francisco or Boston. Did you even read the part about the Wisconsin Public Union Bus Drivers vs Wisconsin non-Union private company bus drivers? Ok The information I found does not support your contention that private school teachers make less in salary than public school teachers in Wisconsin. I compared and found that they are close. The average for teachers in Wisconsin is $46, 390. The average Private secondary school teacher in Hudson WI makes $49.380.00 Hudson WI is a suburb of Minneapolis St. Paul (Minnesota), so it should be roughly representative. www.cbsalary.com/salary_chart.aspx?specialty=Private+Teacher+Secondary+School&cty=Hudson&sid=WI&kw=Private+Teacher&jn=jn031&edu=&tid=66419Wisconsin ranked 26th in the nation for its average teacher salary in 2006-07, according to the American Federation of Teachers’ (AFT) Survey and Analysis of Teacher Salary Trends 2007. The average teacher salary in Wisconsin for the 2006-07 school year was $46,707-a 3.3 percent increase from the previous year. Wisconsin was ranked 30th in the nation for beginning teacher salaries, at $31,588. In Wisconsin, the average salary for charter school teachers was $42,490; beginning charter school teachers’ salaries averaged $32,773. www.k12jobs.com/teaching_jobs_resources/Wisconsin_teacher_jobs.phpAnd just to make you happy I checked the actual teacher salaries for the Lake Geneva school district. If you don't know where Lake Geneva WI is look it up. I had friends there and my niece lives near there. The benefits average around 40% and not the 100% foisted in the source at the beginning of the thread. dpi.state.wi.us/lbstat/pdf/asr04_pt4.pdfI have a problem with your premise that public school teachers make more than private school teachers. Since I attended private schools I know that the requirements for teacher hiring are not the same for those at public schools. My private schools had younger teachers who were just starting out. That was not the case at the public schools. Unless you can tell me what the specific requirements of each school is, your argument comparing private with public schools is specious. I will add that teacher salaries, when compared to people in Wisconsin by the same education, teachers make less money. Since educational attainment is probably fungible - a person with a degree in a job from University Of Wisconsin, Parkside will on average do as well as one who went to U.Of Wisconsin, Superior, then teachers don't get paid as well for the same education as other people with the same education. I would say that is true for private school teachers as well as public school teachers. Which brings me to what I think your real point is. You think public school teachers make too much, especially if they are in unions. You hate unions. I think it is fair to compare teacher salaries to others with the same education both inside and outside Wisconsin and I think the comparison of private school and public school teachers needs to be carefully reviewed to make sure the requirements for hire are the same. I find that comparing benefits is also risky, because benefits are so different for people in teaching as benefits are in all employee contexts. But the 100% benefits figure appears to be a gross exaggeration written by a conservative with an agenda. But, again, the real issue is that you don't like the unionized Wisconsin teachers because they are standing up for themselves in the face of what I consider an unfair attack. You don't like taxes and you will vilify anyone who receives a salary from them so that you can pay less. That is the real point. You want to pay no taxes. Who cares, in your mind, if the kids get a decent education. Teachers in Wisconsin work hard as do teachers everywhere. If teaching were the gravy train you and your selfish cohort believed, everyone would be clamoring to get into the field. Yet the statistics say that teaching is one of the most grinding professions to be found. And what ever we pay teachers in Wisconsin, or anywhere else it is not nearly frigging enough. I bet you make more than a teacher. As to whether you are worth what you are paid is happily someone else's problem. Well at least you're getting closer and are almost comparing apples to apples. But why not expound on the compensation packages for State employed bus drivers? Oh well. I'm sure the Wisconsin Union bosses would want the state voters to think that salary alone was the issue with their nearly bankrupt state treasury, but unfortunately that isn't really the case. Its the overly generous benefits package that combines to make the Wisconsin public employee much better off financially than their private sector counterpart. I understand the need for Unions and can understand the origin of the institution, but it is as ridiculous to me to have a unionized US Armed Forces with a legal ability for soldiers to strike as it is to have a unionized Government work force that is allowed to strike. Why do we let the Government set salaries and benefits for our soldiers but must have Union power to argue the case for service employees, for example, all while working in extremely less severe situations? The other problem I have is the monopolistic nature of a Government Union. The commercial market place will punish the Unionized business and Union member alike if they both agree to pay/get paid too much or for all the "promised" benefits that a Unionized work force might bring. Someone else (who may or may not be Unionized) might provide their product either better or at a lower price and the consumer (analogous to the taxpayer) can shop where ever he likes . Not so with a Unionized Government work force. Where is the alternative? Now don't even start with the incestuous nature of Unions and Democrat politicians. And to say that all businesses and business owners are GOP honks shows me that you never went to Ben and Jerry's, among a million others businesses. |
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Post by ptsdthor on Feb 26, 2011 21:36:06 GMT -8
Clearly something is out of whack in Wisconsin if the prevailing wisdom is that people go to public service for security and not to get rich. No doubt the combination of wages and benefits puts Wisconsin's public employees well ahead of their private industry counterparts (See Bus Drivers data below for example). If the average Joe didn't pay a dime for their medical and retirement, just think of how much extra money they might have with each pay day. As the article shows, the Union has improved their stake over the years as the political climate allows. So if you listen to them now, they say "I'll contribute to my retirement and health care, but don't stop me from striking for changes to my health care and retirement benefits later". Once the heat is died down and Union backed pols take over again, those changes will be improved on for the rank and file - one strike is all it will take if not thrown at their feet after the election for the campaign contributions. Just look to all the crony deals coming out of the Obama admin now if you doubt me. Revising their CBA seems very reasonable to me. online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703408604576164290717724956.htmlLook at what 9 months of work gets you in Wisconsin.... And this may explains why a survey revealed that 81% of the Wisconsin people are sided with the Governor!!!! ATTACHED: This is the official excel DPI database of teachers wages by school district. The current budget repair bill would have them paying about 5.8% toward their own retirement....right now, we the taxpayer, pays 100% of their generous retirement, and most of us pay 100% of our own retirement too. AVERAGE WAGE AND BENEFITS (remember this is for about 9 months of work) TEACHERS: Milwaukee $86,297 Elmbrook $91,065 Germantown $83,818 Hartland Arrwhd $90,285 (highest teacher was $122,952-lowest was $64,942) Men Falls $81,099 West Bend $82,153 Waukesha $92,902 Sussex $82,956 Mequon $95,297 Kettle Mor $87,676 Muskego $91,341 STAFF: Arrowhead - Bus Mng - Kopecky - $169,525 Arrowhead - Principal - Wieczorek - $152,519 Grmtwn - Asst Princ - Dave Towers - $123,222 Elmbrk - Burliegh Elemetary - Principal Zahn- $142,315 (for a primary school!!) Madison - Asst Principal - McGrath - $127,835 UNIVERSITY of WISCONSIN STAFF (2009) (salary alone): Michael Knetter - Prof of Bus - $327,828 Carolyn Martin -Chancellor Mad- $437,000 Hector Deluca - Prof of Nutritional Science - $254,877 (really??) (source:Madison.com -as the UW removed salaries from being posted online in 2007- why if they are so low?) How about some other "public servant job" What do they make? Madison Garbage men (2009) (salary only): Garbageman, Mr. Nelson earned $159,258 in 2009, including $109,892 in overtime and other pay. Garbageman, Greg Tatman, who earned $125,598 7 Madison garbage men made over $100,000 30 Madison garbage men made over $70,000 MILWAUKEE CITY BUS DRIVERS (salary only): 136 Drivers made more than $70,000 54 Drivers made more than $80,000 18 Drivers made more than $90,000 8 Drivers made more than $100,000 Top Driver made $117,000 (Source WTMJ) Compare this to the average private bus driver making $9-13 an hour (about 20,000 yr) with no pension, or healthcare.) Oh, I forgot, its not about power and extorting money for the few from the many under political cover from the Democrats, its about the middle class. Hey, has anyone seen where Wisconsin misplaced 14 State Senators? Could they be in someone's pocket? Do you also advocate that unfunded Federal pensions and unfunded healthcare with no retiree input, like aztecwin's, also be changed? Some fringe is warranted and acceptable for both private and government employee. But the cost of those benefits should be bound and the outlay of the benefits and the amount of employee contribution should be revised if costs rise or tax (or business) revenues decline outside of the original funding plan. A bankrupt municipal entity or a bankrupt company is a big problem for both a government or private retiree respectively. |
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Post by aztec70 on Feb 26, 2011 22:50:42 GMT -8
Do you also advocate that unfunded Federal pensions and unfunded healthcare with no retiree input, like aztecwin's, also be changed? Some fringe is warranted and acceptable for both private and government employee. But the cost of those benefits should be bound and the outlay of the benefits and the amount of employee contribution should be revised if costs rise or tax (or business) revenues decline outside of the original funding plan. A bankrupt municipal entity or a bankrupt company is a big problem for both a government or private retiree respectively. That is a fair answer. |
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Post by aztecwin on Feb 27, 2011 7:51:54 GMT -8
I would go for means testing and/or a one time huge tax bill to fund all retirement liability. We need a flat tax bill introduced this year. To much of our income and time is wasted on tax preparers who seldom get it right anyway. All right. How big do you propose that one time tax bill be? Means testing? Just how would that work? As to tax preparers not getting it right, I seem to get it right often enough that my clients keep coming back. When the law changed to make tax preperation clerks sign your return, they became IRS collection apprentices. Better off using Turbo Tax. Better yet, a flat tax and put the IRS, Turbo Tax and that entire industry out of business. |
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Post by aztec70 on Feb 27, 2011 8:52:39 GMT -8
I would go for means testing and/or a one time huge tax bill to fund all retirement liability. We need a flat tax bill introduced this year. To much of our income and time is wasted on tax preparers who seldom get it right anyway. All right. How big do you propose that one time tax bill be? Means testing? Just how would that work? As to tax preparers not getting it right, I seem to get it right often enough that my clients keep coming back. When the law changed to make tax preperation clerks sign your return, they became IRS collection apprentices. Better off using Turbo Tax. Better yet, a flat tax and put the IRS, Turbo Tax and that entire industry out of business. Why no answers to the questions? |
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Post by inocuace on Feb 27, 2011 9:21:52 GMT -8
I would go for means testing and/or a one time huge tax bill to fund all retirement liability. We need a flat tax bill introduced this year. To much of our income and time is wasted on tax preparers who seldom get it right anyway. All right. How big do you propose that one time tax bill be? Means testing? Just how would that work? As to tax preparers not getting it right, I seem to get it right often enough that my clients keep coming back. When the law changed to make tax preperation clerks sign your return, they became IRS collection apprentices. Better off using Turbo Tax. Better yet, a flat tax and put the IRS, Turbo Tax and that entire industry out of business. You do not know what you are talking about. Not a clue. |
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What do they make?
