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Post by temeculaaztec on Feb 19, 2011 22:44:00 GMT -8
I teach in Poway Unified. We are a PUBLIC SCHOOL DISTRICT! We have some of the highest rated schools in the State and Country! Why?  Socio-Economics....it costs a lot of money to live almost anywhere in Poway Unified. Most (not all)of our students come from two-parent families, educated parents, high parent-supported schools, and low crime rate communities. I live in Temecula because I cannot raise a family of 5 in a middle-class lifestyle on a teachers salary (where I am the main breadwinner) in the Poway/RB area. In 1999, I was approved for $250, 000 loan to buy a house. Nice big tract home in Temecula for that price or a townhome/condo in Rancho Bernardo?? The wife told me to enjoy the commute and we still live here in our home in Temecula. That is why I live in Temecula and commute to PUSD. Temecula Unified Schools are also excellent by any measure, and behold, it is a public school district. |
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Post by inevitec on Feb 20, 2011 7:44:47 GMT -8
I teach in Poway Unified. We are a PUBLIC SCHOOL DISTRICT! We have some of the highest rated schools in the State and Country! Why? Socio-Economics....it costs a lot of money to live almost anywhere in Poway Unified. Most (not all)of our students come from two-parent families, educated parents, high parent-supported schools, and low crime rate communities. I live in Temecula because I cannot raise a family of 5 in a middle-class lifestyle on a teachers salary (where I am the main breadwinner) in the Poway/RB area. In 1999, I was approved for $250, 000 loan to buy a house. Nice big tract home in Temecula for that price or a townhome/condo in Rancho Bernardo?? The wife told me to enjoy the commute and we still live here in our home in Temecula. That is why I live in Temecula and commute to PUSD. Temecula Unified Schools are also excellent by any measure, and behold, it is a public school district. There is the crux of the problem, in my opinion. Temeculaaztec, don't let anyone dissuade you from the fact that what you do is important. If value to society truly translated into earning power. CEOS and Lebron would be in deep trouble compared to teachers. |
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Post by aztecwin on Feb 20, 2011 7:58:04 GMT -8
Then you did not see the documentary. We used to be 1st in the world, now we are 48th. Unions don;t want parents involved. Otherwise, they would demand accountability. Why do private schools, and the newer charter schools today, beat out the public schools in overall ranking? Because there is a solid curriculum, discipline and parental involvement. There are no unions.Thank God. Anyways, go see the movie then get back to me. It is my opinion the the economic status of the family is the most important factor for student success. If you look at the high schools in SDUSD the best are in high income neighborhoods, the worst in the poorest. There is no comparing the test scoresof La Jolla High and Hoover High. If you traded student bodys between the schools Hoover's scores would rise, La Jolla's would fall. Same physical plant, same teacher's, just different students. Private schools are much the same. The also get to chose their students. If Lincoln High got the student body of Francis Parker their scores would go up. If Francis Parker got the student body of Lincoln, Parker's scores would drop. I am not saying that there are not successful students at schools with poor test scores or no failing students at good schools. I am speaking in general terms. What is wrong here? I agree completely. Kids tend to try to live up to the accomplishments and expectations of their parents. I also think that DOD schools are mostly successful for many more reasons than expressed above, but that is one thing of many that DOD does very well. |
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Post by inevitec on Feb 20, 2011 8:00:29 GMT -8
"Also, wages go up when inflation goes up and we've had low inflation for quite some time." No No No. Inflation is not the reason real wages improve. Wages should go up as productivity goes up, right Yoda? Productivity is up but wages are not. Unions have historically fought so that workers got a share of the results of productivity improvement. Inflation adjustments simply maintain the status quo. Real wages are down and they have been since I was a kid. Did your mother work? Does your wife? So the loss of unions and lower wages are related. Globalization gave companies a way to force unions into submission. (at least one) Relatively speaking it is better for a worker (from their own perspective) to be represented by a union than not, don't you agree with that? Unions are not an anachronism, Yoda, You are just buying the conservative line. A society's standard of living goes up as productivity goes up. I don't believe that there is a direct connection between productivity and and wages, however. The price of human labor, like the price of any other resource, is a function of supply and demand. Yoda out... Unions exist to make sure that some of the gains of productivity make it into the pockets of the people doing the work. Uh, that takes negotiating power. That is what makes them useful and not anachronistic. The individual is one. The individual cannot, usually, negotiate with a business on the basis of supply and demand. One person is too small a unit of supply in a large pool. That is why Republicans want to reduce responsibility to the individual level. It decreases their leverage and allows business to drive labor costs down. Marshall Faulk could negotiate based on supply and demand, but we are talking about a much smaller pool of possible laborers, aren't we? Why do you think suppliers aggregate into cartels? It gives them leverage to increase prices. One supplier can be outflanked. One employee can be outflanked. Business has the job supply and any one individual is powerless to do much about it. Aggregate into a group and supply and demand rules suddenly apply. Since that will always be true, unions will be useful. |
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Post by aztecwin on Feb 20, 2011 8:05:17 GMT -8
I teach in Poway Unified. We are a PUBLIC SCHOOL DISTRICT! We have some of the highest rated schools in the State and Country! Why? Socio-Economics....it costs a lot of money to live almost anywhere in Poway Unified. Most (not all)of our students come from two-parent families, educated parents, high parent-supported schools, and low crime rate communities. I live in Temecula because I cannot raise a family of 5 in a middle-class lifestyle on a teachers salary (where I am the main breadwinner) in the Poway/RB area. In 1999, I was approved for $250, 000 loan to buy a house. Nice big tract home in Temecula for that price or a townhome/condo in Rancho Bernardo?? The wife told me to enjoy the commute and we still live here in our home in Temecula. That is why I live in Temecula and commute to PUSD. Temecula Unified Schools are also excellent by any measure, and behold, it is a public school district. Three of my Grandchildren live and go to school in Temecula. They are doing well in the public schools up there. Their family lives there for about the same reason(s). There are many more exceptions to what I see as problems in public schools. I have met Temecula Aztec a time or two and he is a good guy and a dedicated teacher. |
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Post by inevitec on Feb 20, 2011 8:06:25 GMT -8
It is my opinion the the economic status of the family is the most important factor for student success. If you look at the high schools in SDUSD the best are in high income neighborhoods, the worst in the poorest. There is no comparing the test scoresof La Jolla High and Hoover High. If you traded student bodys between the schools Hoover's scores would rise, La Jolla's would fall. Same physical plant, same teacher's, just different students. Private schools are much the same. The also get to chose their students. If Lincoln High got the student body of Francis Parker their scores would go up. If Francis Parker got the student body of Lincoln, Parker's scores would drop. I am not saying that there are not successful students at schools with poor test scores or no failing students at good schools. I am speaking in general terms. What is wrong here? I agree completely. Kids tend to try to live up to the accomplishments and expectations of their parents. I also think that DOD schools are mostly successful for many more reasons than expressed above, but that is one thing of many that DOD does very well. D.O.D schools are successful in an environment where most parents are not financially well off. The teachers are GS-9s, so they are not rich. So, I say it is parental involvement, forced or not, that makes the difference. Involvement makes charter schools and private schools successful. Parental involvement abounds in D.O.D schools (the parents understand discipline and effort) and in private schools (where parents are really invested in their children's future). I attended both kinds of schools and it was the involvement that seemed to make the difference, both for the students and the teachers. |
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Post by temeculaaztec on Feb 20, 2011 9:12:42 GMT -8
I teach in Poway Unified. We are a PUBLIC SCHOOL DISTRICT! We have some of the highest rated schools in the State and Country! Why? Socio-Economics....it costs a lot of money to live almost anywhere in Poway Unified. Most (not all)of our students come from two-parent families, educated parents, high parent-supported schools, and low crime rate communities. I live in Temecula because I cannot raise a family of 5 in a middle-class lifestyle on a teachers salary (where I am the main breadwinner) in the Poway/RB area. In 1999, I was approved for $250, 000 loan to buy a house. Nice big tract home in Temecula for that price or a townhome/condo in Rancho Bernardo?? The wife told me to enjoy the commute and we still live here in our home in Temecula. That is why I live in Temecula and commute to PUSD. Temecula Unified Schools are also excellent by any measure, and behold, it is a public school district. Three of my Grandchildren live and go to school in Temecula. They are doing well in the public schools up there. Their family lives there for about the same reason(s). There are many more exceptions to what I see as problems in public schools. I have met Temecula Aztec a time or two and he is a good guy and a dedicated teacher. Thanks for the kind words Mr. Win. The problem is not public vs. private schools but rather the discipline and parental support in education. Discipline is paramount...it sounds old school but it is still essential to a safe and orderly learning environment. Also, all research points to parent's socio-economic status and educational level as the main influence on student success(parents are generally more involved in these communities). Take SD County for example...all the high-performing schools (if you trust the API scores as the only indicator of success)and you will see schools in affluent areas having the highest API scores and STAR test results. Most of my students have eaten a good breakfast, have lunch with them, and feel safe on campus. That is not true at most lower-performing schools even though they have teachers as equally talented and qualified as those here in PUSD. Their clients come in with a host of different issues and baggage. I have lots of respect for those teachers who take on those challenges. Many continue to do wonderful things with a much different environment. |
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Post by temeculaaztec on Feb 20, 2011 9:14:49 GMT -8
I teach in Poway Unified. We are a PUBLIC SCHOOL DISTRICT! We have some of the highest rated schools in the State and Country! Why? Socio-Economics....it costs a lot of money to live almost anywhere in Poway Unified. Most (not all)of our students come from two-parent families, educated parents, high parent-supported schools, and low crime rate communities. I live in Temecula because I cannot raise a family of 5 in a middle-class lifestyle on a teachers salary (where I am the main breadwinner) in the Poway/RB area. In 1999, I was approved for $250, 000 loan to buy a house. Nice big tract home in Temecula for that price or a townhome/condo in Rancho Bernardo?? The wife told me to enjoy the commute and we still live here in our home in Temecula. That is why I live in Temecula and commute to PUSD. Temecula Unified Schools are also excellent by any measure, and behold, it is a public school district. There is the crux of the problem, in my opinion. Temeculaaztec, don't let anyone dissuade you from the fact that what you do is important. If value to society truly translated into earning power. CEOS and Lebron would be in deep trouble compared to teachers. Thanks...I do know it is important. I did not become a teacher to get rich but, I didn't take a vow of poverty either!  |
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Post by Yoda on Feb 20, 2011 16:25:32 GMT -8
Unions exist to make sure that some of the gains of productivity make it into the pockets of the people doing the work. Uh, that takes negotiating power. That is what makes them useful and not anachronistic. The individual is one. The individual cannot, usually, negotiate with a business on the basis of supply and demand. One person is too small a unit of supply in a large pool. That is why Republicans want to reduce responsibility to the individual level. It decreases their leverage and allows business to drive labor costs down. Marshall Faulk could negotiate based on supply and demand, but we are talking about a much smaller pool of possible laborers, aren't we? Why do you think suppliers aggregate into cartels? It gives them leverage to increase prices. One supplier can be outflanked. One employee can be outflanked. Business has the job supply and any one individual is powerless to do much about it. Aggregate into a group and supply and demand rules suddenly apply. Since that will always be true, unions will be useful. It never ceases to amaze me that people who don't trust business unquestioningly trust labor. In my view, labor is a business and is no more honorable or dishonorable than is any other business. No more or less greedy. I don't think unions exist to make sure that "the gains of productivity make it into the pockets of the people doing the work". They may have at one time, but not now. I think they, like business, exist first to perpetuate themselves and second to protect the interests of their management. Protecting the interests of their stakeholders (stockholders/members) is tertiary. They can't ignore it because keeping the stakeholders happy is critical to protecting the interests of management. But it is not mission critical on a day to day basis. There was a time, where there was a vital role that unions played in protecting their members from some very real abuses. But the role of labor has largely been replaced by the government -- job safety is now a governmental concern and so is retirement (social security and things like 401k plans). Work Comp is the law of the land. In a sense, labor is an anachronism because, in some measure, labor achieved so many of its early goals. Labor no longer holds the moral high ground that you claim. Too often they negotiate deals that make it next to impossible to fire those who deserve it, retirement benefits that the rest of us can only dream about, and wages that are not even remotely connected to productivity. And that's the problem. That's why Wisconsin is about to end collective bargaining -- and why a whole lot of states are likely to follow suit. Even government can no longer afford the excesses that they have allowed -- for political reasons -- in better economic times. I work in the service sector and good people can and do negotiate very good deals on their own every day of the week. If I don't pay my people well enough, I lose them and if somebody else gets a little too stingy, then I can take their people. In the service sector and among the professions, unions have never done well, with one exception. Government. And that is coming to an end. Yoda out... |
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Post by inocuace on Feb 21, 2011 15:55:14 GMT -8
Unions exist to make sure that some of the gains of productivity make it into the pockets of the people doing the work. Uh, that takes negotiating power. That is what makes them useful and not anachronistic. The individual is one. The individual cannot, usually, negotiate with a business on the basis of supply and demand. One person is too small a unit of supply in a large pool. That is why Republicans want to reduce responsibility to the individual level. It decreases their leverage and allows business to drive labor costs down. Marshall Faulk could negotiate based on supply and demand, but we are talking about a much smaller pool of possible laborers, aren't we? Why do you think suppliers aggregate into cartels? It gives them leverage to increase prices. One supplier can be outflanked. One employee can be outflanked. Business has the job supply and any one individual is powerless to do much about it. Aggregate into a group and supply and demand rules suddenly apply. Since that will always be true, unions will be useful. It never ceases to amaze me that people who don't trust business unquestioningly trust labor. In my view, labor is a business and is no more honorable or dishonorable than is any other business. No more or less greedy. I don't think unions exist to make sure that "the gains of productivity make it into the pockets of the people doing the work". They may have at one time, but not now. I think they, like business, exist first to perpetuate themselves and second to protect the interests of their management. Protecting the interests of their stakeholders (stockholders/members) is tertiary. They can't ignore it because keeping the stakeholders happy is critical to protecting the interests of management. But it is not mission critical on a day to day basis. There was a time, where there was a vital role that unions played in protecting their members from some very real abuses. But the role of labor has largely been replaced by the government -- job safety is now a governmental concern and so is retirement (social security and things like 401k plans). Work Comp is the law of the land. In a sense, labor is an anachronism because, in some measure, labor achieved so many of its early goals. Labor no longer holds the moral high ground that you claim. Too often they negotiate deals that make it next to impossible to fire those who deserve it, retirement benefits that the rest of us can only dream about, and wages that are not even remotely connected to productivity. And that's the problem. That's why Wisconsin is about to end collective bargaining -- and why a whole lot of states are likely to follow suit. Even government can no longer afford the excesses that they have allowed -- for political reasons -- in better economic times. I work in the service sector and good people can and do negotiate very good deals on their own every day of the week. If I don't pay my people well enough, I lose them and if somebody else gets a little too stingy, then I can take their people. In the service sector and among the professions, unions have never done well, with one exception. Government. And that is coming to an end. Yoda out... I trust very few institutions. Unions are no better than small business, but at least they operate as a counter force to business. That is their value. Too many here attack unions with the same charges one could level against business. The hypocrisy bothers me. I have found small businesses to be as untrustworthy as the conservatives say unions are. Unions serve a purpose. When they are gone, and that will happen in my opinion, we will be worse off, because there will be no effective counter force to business. The real dynamic in play here is that unions are not Republicans. Republicans want more power. The only effective organized resistance to business interests are unions. If you remove the only organized entity with power to face business interests we will all pay. You will note that Walker did not treat all unions the same in his quest. Why? |
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Post by Yoda on Feb 21, 2011 16:52:21 GMT -8
I trust very few institutions. Unions are no better than small business, but at least they operate as a counter force to business. That is their value. Too many here attack unions with the same charges one could level against business. The hypocrisy bothers me. I have found small businesses to be as untrustworthy as the conservatives say unions are. Unions serve a purpose. When they are gone, and that will happen in my opinion, we will be worse off, because there will be no effective counter force to business. The real dynamic in play here is that unions are not Republicans. Republicans want more power. The only effective organized resistance to business interests are unions. If you remove the only organized entity with power to face business interests we will all pay. You will note that Walker did not treat all unions the same in his quest. Why? I'm not sure that we are that far apart here but you have far more faith in unions as a counterbalancing force. I think that unions are very ineffective in that regard. To begin with, a fairly small percentage of the American work force is unionized -- 12.4%, according to a wiki article. Further, only 7.6% of private sector workers are unionized while 36.8% of public sector workers are. I don't think that 7.6% is significant enough to counterbalance much of anything. And in any event, the topic of the thread is the public sector workers in Wisconsin and elsewhere. Not only do they constitute the majority of unionized workers, they don't counterbalance business at all. Their "arch enemy" are the governmental entities that employ their workers. Further, I can't think of anything that the 7.6% have counterbalanced of late. Has there been some major piece of legislation that pitted the unions against big business lately? I can't think of anything. They worked together to save the auto industry but that's not exactly the same thing -- in fact, if I recall, the unions ended up owning part of GM and maybe Chrysler too. So much for counterbalancing... Yoda out... |
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Post by ptsdthor on Feb 25, 2011 9:19:43 GMT -8
Clearly something is out of whack in Wisconsin if the prevailing wisdom is that people go to public service for security and not to get rich. No doubt the combination of wages and benefits puts Wisconsin's public employees well ahead of their private industry counterparts (See Bus Drivers data below for example). If the average Joe didn't pay a dime for their medical and retirement, just think of how much extra money they might have with each pay day. As the article shows, the Union has improved their stake over the years as the political climate allows. So if you listen to them now, they say "I'll contribute to my retirement and health care, but don't stop me from striking for changes to my health care and retirement benefits later". Once the heat is died down and Union backed pols take over again, those changes will be improved on for the rank and file - one strike is all it will take if not thrown at their feet after the election for the campaign contributions. Just look to all the crony deals coming out of the Obama admin now if you doubt me. Revising their CBA seems very reasonable to me. online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703408604576164290717724956.htmlLook at what 9 months of work gets you in Wisconsin.... And this may explains why a survey revealed that 81% of the Wisconsin people are sided with the Governor!!!! ATTACHED: This is the official excel DPI database of teachers wages by school district. The current budget repair bill would have them paying about 5.8% toward their own retirement....right now, we the taxpayer, pays 100% of their generous retirement, and most of us pay 100% of our own retirement too. AVERAGE WAGE AND BENEFITS (remember this is for about 9 months of work) TEACHERS: Milwaukee $86,297 Elmbrook $91,065 Germantown $83,818 Hartland Arrwhd $90,285 (highest teacher was $122,952-lowest was $64,942) Men Falls $81,099 West Bend $82,153 Waukesha $92,902 Sussex $82,956 Mequon $95,297 Kettle Mor $87,676 Muskego $91,341 STAFF: Arrowhead - Bus Mng - Kopecky - $169,525 Arrowhead - Principal - Wieczorek - $152,519 Grmtwn - Asst Princ - Dave Towers - $123,222 Elmbrk - Burliegh Elemetary - Principal Zahn- $142,315 (for a primary school!!) Madison - Asst Principal - McGrath - $127,835 UNIVERSITY of WISCONSIN STAFF (2009) (salary alone): Michael Knetter - Prof of Bus - $327,828 Carolyn Martin -Chancellor Mad- $437,000 Hector Deluca - Prof of Nutritional Science - $254,877 (really??) (source:Madison.com -as the UW removed salaries from being posted online in 2007- why if they are so low?) How about some other "public servant job" What do they make? Madison Garbage men (2009) (salary only): Garbageman, Mr. Nelson earned $159,258 in 2009, including $109,892 in overtime and other pay. Garbageman, Greg Tatman, who earned $125,598 7 Madison garbage men made over $100,000 30 Madison garbage men made over $70,000 MILWAUKEE CITY BUS DRIVERS (salary only): 136 Drivers made more than $70,000 54 Drivers made more than $80,000 18 Drivers made more than $90,000 8 Drivers made more than $100,000 Top Driver made $117,000 (Source WTMJ) Compare this to the average private bus driver making $9-13 an hour (about 20,000 yr) with no pension, or healthcare.) Oh, I forgot, its not about power and extorting money for the few from the many under political cover from the Democrats, its about the middle class.  Hey, has anyone seen where Wisconsin misplaced 14 State Senators? Could they be in someone's pocket? |
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Post by inocuace on Feb 25, 2011 17:01:49 GMT -8
Clearly something is out of whack in Wisconsin if the prevailing wisdom is that people go to public service for security and not to get rich. No doubt the combination of wages and benefits puts Wisconsin's public employees well ahead of their private industry counterparts (See Bus Drivers data below for example). If the average Joe didn't pay a dime for their medical and retirement, just think of how much extra money they might have with each pay day. As the article shows, the Union has improved their stake over the years as the political climate allows. So if you listen to them now, they say "I'll contribute to my retirement and health care, but don't stop me from striking for changes to my health care and retirement benefits later". Once the heat is died down and Union backed pols take over again, those changes will be improved on for the rank and file - one strike is all it will take if not thrown at their feet after the election for the campaign contributions. Just look to all the crony deals coming out of the Obama admin now if you doubt me. Revising their CBA seems very reasonable to me. online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703408604576164290717724956.htmlLook at what 9 months of work gets you in Wisconsin.... And this may explains why a survey revealed that 81% of the Wisconsin people are sided with the Governor!!!! ATTACHED: This is the official excel DPI database of teachers wages by school district. The current budget repair bill would have them paying about 5.8% toward their own retirement....right now, we the taxpayer, pays 100% of their generous retirement, and most of us pay 100% of our own retirement too. AVERAGE WAGE AND BENEFITS (remember this is for about 9 months of work) TEACHERS: Milwaukee $86,297 Elmbrook $91,065 Germantown $83,818 Hartland Arrwhd $90,285 (highest teacher was $122,952-lowest was $64,942) Men Falls $81,099 West Bend $82,153 Waukesha $92,902 Sussex $82,956 Mequon $95,297 Kettle Mor $87,676 Muskego $91,341 STAFF: Arrowhead - Bus Mng - Kopecky - $169,525 Arrowhead - Principal - Wieczorek - $152,519 Grmtwn - Asst Princ - Dave Towers - $123,222 Elmbrk - Burliegh Elemetary - Principal Zahn- $142,315 (for a primary school!!) Madison - Asst Principal - McGrath - $127,835 UNIVERSITY of WISCONSIN STAFF (2009) (salary alone): Michael Knetter - Prof of Bus - $327,828 Carolyn Martin -Chancellor Mad- $437,000 Hector Deluca - Prof of Nutritional Science - $254,877 (really??) (source:Madison.com -as the UW removed salaries from being posted online in 2007- why if they are so low?) How about some other "public servant job" What do they make? Madison Garbage men (2009) (salary only): Garbageman, Mr. Nelson earned $159,258 in 2009, including $109,892 in overtime and other pay. Garbageman, Greg Tatman, who earned $125,598 7 Madison garbage men made over $100,000 30 Madison garbage men made over $70,000 MILWAUKEE CITY BUS DRIVERS (salary only): 136 Drivers made more than $70,000 54 Drivers made more than $80,000 18 Drivers made more than $90,000 8 Drivers made more than $100,000 Top Driver made $117,000 (Source WTMJ) Compare this to the average private bus driver making $9-13 an hour (about 20,000 yr) with no pension, or healthcare.) Oh, I forgot, its not about power and extorting money for the few from the many under political cover from the Democrats, its about the middle class. Hey, has anyone seen where Wisconsin misplaced 14 State Senators? Could they be in someone's pocket? Interesting. Teachers in Wisconsin start at $25,222 in salary. Their average Salary: $46,390. The average mid career college graduate makes about 80,000. I can therefore only conclude that I do not trust your figures. You are either just wrong or leaving some important fact out. |
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Post by aztecwin on Feb 25, 2011 17:17:17 GMT -8
Clearly something is out of whack in Wisconsin if the prevailing wisdom is that people go to public service for security and not to get rich. No doubt the combination of wages and benefits puts Wisconsin's public employees well ahead of their private industry counterparts (See Bus Drivers data below for example). If the average Joe didn't pay a dime for their medical and retirement, just think of how much extra money they might have with each pay day. As the article shows, the Union has improved their stake over the years as the political climate allows. So if you listen to them now, they say "I'll contribute to my retirement and health care, but don't stop me from striking for changes to my health care and retirement benefits later". Once the heat is died down and Union backed pols take over again, those changes will be improved on for the rank and file - one strike is all it will take if not thrown at their feet after the election for the campaign contributions. Just look to all the crony deals coming out of the Obama admin now if you doubt me. Revising their CBA seems very reasonable to me. online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703408604576164290717724956.htmlLook at what 9 months of work gets you in Wisconsin.... And this may explains why a survey revealed that 81% of the Wisconsin people are sided with the Governor!!!! ATTACHED: This is the official excel DPI database of teachers wages by school district. The current budget repair bill would have them paying about 5.8% toward their own retirement....right now, we the taxpayer, pays 100% of their generous retirement, and most of us pay 100% of our own retirement too. AVERAGE WAGE AND BENEFITS (remember this is for about 9 months of work) TEACHERS: Milwaukee $86,297 Elmbrook $91,065 Germantown $83,818 Hartland Arrwhd $90,285 (highest teacher was $122,952-lowest was $64,942) Men Falls $81,099 West Bend $82,153 Waukesha $92,902 Sussex $82,956 Mequon $95,297 Kettle Mor $87,676 Muskego $91,341 STAFF: Arrowhead - Bus Mng - Kopecky - $169,525 Arrowhead - Principal - Wieczorek - $152,519 Grmtwn - Asst Princ - Dave Towers - $123,222 Elmbrk - Burliegh Elemetary - Principal Zahn- $142,315 (for a primary school!!) Madison - Asst Principal - McGrath - $127,835 UNIVERSITY of WISCONSIN STAFF (2009) (salary alone): Michael Knetter - Prof of Bus - $327,828 Carolyn Martin -Chancellor Mad- $437,000 Hector Deluca - Prof of Nutritional Science - $254,877 (really??) (source:Madison.com -as the UW removed salaries from being posted online in 2007- why if they are so low?) How about some other "public servant job" What do they make? Madison Garbage men (2009) (salary only): Garbageman, Mr. Nelson earned $159,258 in 2009, including $109,892 in overtime and other pay. Garbageman, Greg Tatman, who earned $125,598 7 Madison garbage men made over $100,000 30 Madison garbage men made over $70,000 MILWAUKEE CITY BUS DRIVERS (salary only): 136 Drivers made more than $70,000 54 Drivers made more than $80,000 18 Drivers made more than $90,000 8 Drivers made more than $100,000 Top Driver made $117,000 (Source WTMJ) Compare this to the average private bus driver making $9-13 an hour (about 20,000 yr) with no pension, or healthcare.) Oh, I forgot, its not about power and extorting money for the few from the many under political cover from the Democrats, its about the middle class. Hey, has anyone seen where Wisconsin misplaced 14 State Senators? Could they be in someone's pocket? Interesting. Teachers in Wisconsin start at $25,222 in salary. Their average Salary: $46,390. The average mid career college graduate makes about 80,000. I can therefore only conclude that I do not trust your figures. You are either just wrong or leaving some important fact out. Somehow, when you do not address total compenstation and that your figures without a cite are far from what is reported by this WSJ piece, your figures are suspect. |
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Post by ptsdthor on Feb 25, 2011 18:23:12 GMT -8
Clearly something is out of whack in Wisconsin if the prevailing wisdom is that people go to public service for security and not to get rich. No doubt the combination of wages and benefits puts Wisconsin's public employees well ahead of their private industry counterparts (See Bus Drivers data below for example). If the average Joe didn't pay a dime for their medical and retirement, just think of how much extra money they might have with each pay day. As the article shows, the Union has improved their stake over the years as the political climate allows. So if you listen to them now, they say "I'll contribute to my retirement and health care, but don't stop me from striking for changes to my health care and retirement benefits later". Once the heat is died down and Union backed pols take over again, those changes will be improved on for the rank and file - one strike is all it will take if not thrown at their feet after the election for the campaign contributions. Just look to all the crony deals coming out of the Obama admin now if you doubt me. Revising their CBA seems very reasonable to me. online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703408604576164290717724956.htmlLook at what 9 months of work gets you in Wisconsin.... And this may explains why a survey revealed that 81% of the Wisconsin people are sided with the Governor!!!! ATTACHED: This is the official excel DPI database of teachers wages by school district. The current budget repair bill would have them paying about 5.8% toward their own retirement....right now, we the taxpayer, pays 100% of their generous retirement, and most of us pay 100% of our own retirement too. AVERAGE WAGE AND BENEFITS (remember this is for about 9 months of work) TEACHERS: Milwaukee $86,297 Elmbrook $91,065 Germantown $83,818 Hartland Arrwhd $90,285 (highest teacher was $122,952-lowest was $64,942) Men Falls $81,099 West Bend $82,153 Waukesha $92,902 Sussex $82,956 Mequon $95,297 Kettle Mor $87,676 Muskego $91,341 STAFF: Arrowhead - Bus Mng - Kopecky - $169,525 Arrowhead - Principal - Wieczorek - $152,519 Grmtwn - Asst Princ - Dave Towers - $123,222 Elmbrk - Burliegh Elemetary - Principal Zahn- $142,315 (for a primary school!!) Madison - Asst Principal - McGrath - $127,835 UNIVERSITY of WISCONSIN STAFF (2009) (salary alone): Michael Knetter - Prof of Bus - $327,828 Carolyn Martin -Chancellor Mad- $437,000 Hector Deluca - Prof of Nutritional Science - $254,877 (really??) (source:Madison.com -as the UW removed salaries from being posted online in 2007- why if they are so low?) How about some other "public servant job" What do they make? Madison Garbage men (2009) (salary only): Garbageman, Mr. Nelson earned $159,258 in 2009, including $109,892 in overtime and other pay. Garbageman, Greg Tatman, who earned $125,598 7 Madison garbage men made over $100,000 30 Madison garbage men made over $70,000 MILWAUKEE CITY BUS DRIVERS (salary only): 136 Drivers made more than $70,000 54 Drivers made more than $80,000 18 Drivers made more than $90,000 8 Drivers made more than $100,000 Top Driver made $117,000 (Source WTMJ) Compare this to the average private bus driver making $9-13 an hour (about 20,000 yr) with no pension, or healthcare.) Oh, I forgot, its not about power and extorting money for the few from the many under political cover from the Democrats, its about the middle class. Hey, has anyone seen where Wisconsin misplaced 14 State Senators? Could they be in someone's pocket? Interesting. Teachers in Wisconsin start at $25,222 in salary. Their average Salary: $46,390. The average mid career college graduate makes about 80,000. I can therefore only conclude that I do not trust your figures. You are either just wrong or leaving some important fact out. I readily doubt that Wisconsin's K-12 teachers working in private schools make $80,000 salary on average, so until you provide authoritative data on that, I can only conclude you are wrong or purposefully mixing apples and oranges to avoid the truth of matter. And just for grins, try mutliplying your claimed median Government teacher salary by the reported 1.742 muliple to obtain the estimated total benefits package and see how close it comes to some of the numbers listed above. Close enough for Government work |
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Post by inocuace on Feb 25, 2011 19:18:19 GMT -8
Interesting. Teachers in Wisconsin start at $25,222 in salary. Their average Salary: $46,390. The average mid career college graduate makes about 80,000. I can therefore only conclude that I do not trust your figures. You are either just wrong or leaving some important fact out. I readily doubt that Wisconsin's K-12 teachers working in private schools make $80,000 salary on average, so until you provide authoritative data on that, I can only conclude you are wrong or purposefully mixing apples and oranges to avoid the truth of matter. And just for grins, try mutliplying your claimed median Government teacher salary by the reported 1.742 muliple to obtain the estimated total benefits package and see how close it comes to some of the numbers listed above. Close enough for Government work The $80,000 figure is for mid career college graduates in any profession nationally. The average for teachers in Wisconsin is $46, 390. |
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Post by inocuace on Feb 25, 2011 19:24:48 GMT -8
Interesting. Teachers in Wisconsin start at $25,222 in salary. Their average Salary: $46,390. The average mid career college graduate makes about 80,000. I can therefore only conclude that I do not trust your figures. You are either just wrong or leaving some important fact out. Somehow, when you do not address total compenstation and that your figures without a cite are far from what is reported by this WSJ piece, your figures are suspect. I would not trust the WSJ with my used toilet paper. But it is fair for you to ask where I got my figures. So: teacherportal.com/salary/Wisconsin-teacher-salaryteacherportal.com/salary |
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Post by Yoda on Feb 25, 2011 19:33:29 GMT -8
I don't think that the issue is salary, per se. Rather it is:
1. Total compensation -- meaning the cost to the employer of salary and benefits -- paid to union members vs. the total compensation paid to comparably employed workers outside the union, and
2. The cost of benefits paid to union members vs. the cost of benefits paid to comparably employed workers outside the union.
I haven't read the various claims and counterclaims posted upthread in detail but I think it would be very easy to mislead by comparing salary to total compensation.
Yoda out...
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Post by inocuace on Feb 25, 2011 19:49:42 GMT -8
I don't think that the issue is salary, per se. Rather it is: 1. Total compensation -- meaning the cost to the employer of salary and benefits -- paid to union members vs. the total compensation paid to comparably employed workers outside the union, and 2. The cost of benefits paid to union members vs. the cost of benefits paid to comparably employed workers outside the union. I haven't read the various claims and counterclaims posted upthread in detail but I think it would be very easy to mislead by comparing salary to total compensation. Yoda out... I was comparing salaries of Wisconsin teachers to the average salary for college graduates to make my point. The relative difference is telling I think. I don't buy total compensation figures that exceed the salary figures by 100%. That is my point. I did not feel like looking up total compensation because I do not know what that means. There are some things you can include in a total compensation figure that carry a subjective value or is not used by some or all of the employees. And I never trust anything supplied by WSJ. I have seen WSJ distort other employment/salary figures. I do not believe for one moment that any teacher in Wisconsin is overpaid, either in salary or benefits. I knew what I was doing Yoda. Its OK if you do not like my analysis. I can live with that dissonance just fine. |
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Post by Yoda on Feb 25, 2011 20:57:35 GMT -8
I was comparing salaries of Wisconsin teachers to the average salary for college graduates to make my point. The relative difference is telling I think. I don't buy total compensation figures that exceed the salary figures by 100%. That was my point. I did not feel like looking up total compensation because I do not know what that means. There are some things you can include in a total compensation figure that carry a subjective value or is not used by some or all of the employees. And I never trust anything supplied by WSJ. I knew what I was doing Yoda. Sorry, I didn't mean to suggest that you, or anybody else, didn't know what they were doing. As I said, I didn't study anybody's numbers in detail. It was more of a general observation. That said, I think total compensation is pretty important. What the Governor is trying to take away, and the union is fighting to keep, is the right to bargain over exactly those things that, in the aggregate, are the difference between salary and total compensation -- essentially, I think, benefits. I don't know what they get or that they feel are at risk -- or how reasonable they are -- so I'm not passing judgment. I'd just like to see the numbers that I asked for above. Maybe their benefits are in line -- maybe they are way out of line. I have no idea. I know that I pay about 23% on top of salary to get to total compensation -- and we've got medical, dental, disability, life and pretty much a full range of benefits. If you are saying that total compensation for public workers is more than 100% of salary, then something is way out of whack. Also, I assume that nobody is comparing a 10 month salary with a 12 month one? Yoda out... |
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Socio-Economics....it costs a lot of money to live almost anywhere in Poway Unified. Most (not all)of our students come from two-parent families, educated parents, high parent-supported schools, and low crime rate communities. I live in Temecula because I cannot raise a family of 5 in a middle-class lifestyle on a teachers salary (where I am the main breadwinner) in the Poway/RB area. In 1999, I was approved for $250, 000 loan to buy a house. Nice big tract home in Temecula for that price or a townhome/condo in Rancho Bernardo?? The wife told me to enjoy the commute and we still live here in our home in Temecula. That is why I live in Temecula and commute to PUSD. Temecula Unified Schools are also excellent by any measure, and behold, it is a public school district. 
