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Post by sdcoug on Mar 2, 2015 10:06:26 GMT -8
How about Florida Gulf Coast? See how a good offense beats us every time? This game was a perfect example! Once we play a good scoring team, we are done! So wait... it's that you think the Aztec's lose every time the other team scores more points? Oddly, I think that is consistent for every team and both the O and D are responsible for that. I think we all get that you don't think the O is good enough, you probably don't need to say it again. I mean it's clear it all 14 threads you have posted in. LOL. That's deep analysis there by ctap! I'm curious where he was when we were scoring 1.1 pts/possession and were among the most efficient scoring teams in the conference?
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Post by ctap13 on Mar 2, 2015 10:55:00 GMT -8
Just keep thinking that our offense is good enough and that it is not a problem in wait-and-see until we lose again because of it. Do you not think 46 points is a problem in a college basketball game? That is absolutely atrocious. For a team that gets as much talent as we do, being in the top 300 out of 350 is an absolute joke and Fisher should be focusing on that. If not we will not continue to improve in the big tournament.
I mean geez I am a huge Aztec fan here, I get tired of all these other fans who thinks nothing is wrong. As mentioned many times before, we are not judged to win our conference we are judged to make a big run in the big tournament. Those days of just trying to win conference are long gone.
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Post by sdcoug on Mar 2, 2015 11:24:41 GMT -8
Just keep thinking that our offense is good enough and that it is not a problem in wait-and-see until we lose again because of it. Do you not think 46 points is a problem in a college basketball game? That is absolutely atrocious. For a team that gets as much talent as we do, being in the top 300 out of 350 is an absolute joke and Fisher should be focusing on that. If not we will not continue to improve in the big tournament. I mean geez I am a huge Aztec fan here, I get tired of all these other fans who thinks nothing is wrong. As mentioned many times before, we are not judged to win our conference we are judged to make a big run in the big tournament. Those days of just trying to win conference are long gone. Why do you keep harping on being #300 in total points scored when you know that's not a relevant stat? Anyone, and I mean ANYONE who follows the game knows that's biased by tempo, and we're not an uptempo team. Because our D' is so good teams take a lot of time on their end of the court trying to score, and they're unsuccessful more often than not. Thus the game slows and we'll never be in the top 150 or so in overall scoring. However, we're top 4 in the country defensively. Top 4!
We're an average offensive team. We're ABOVE AVERAGE within our own conference. They're no disputing that. We average 1.029 pts/possession during conference play, even after Saturday's game. BSU is #1 - 1.112, CSU #2 - 1.102, USU is #3 at 1.075, UNLV is #4 at 1.071 and we're #5. The league average is 1.02.
On the flip side we BLOW AWAY every other team defensively. BSU is #2, and when you combine O' & D' efficiency stats we're right behind BSU (.16 vs. .14). CSU, which is a very good offensive team, is 3rd (.13). All are different ways at getting the same outcome.
I'd love it if our O was better & like you I'd like to see us run more sets, whereas we're more free flow offensively, allowing the players to be creative. Players love that though - there's no denying that. But although I'd love to see us run more motion sets and/or back picks, etc., I'm also not blind to the fact that over the past month we were one of the better offensive teams anywhere. During the last 4 games we averaged 1.13 pts/possession, which is impressive & among the best nationally. Prior to Saturday, during February we averaged 1.08, which also is among the very best. Saturday dropped us to 1.04, but it was one game.
I'm also bright enough to realize that if you only put our best offensive players on the floor our D' will suffer. Would the gain offensively, offset the loss defensively? Who knows, but it's not who we are. We're an elite defensive team.
You can choose to ignore the fact that we have been much better over the past month, and Saturday was just 1 game. But it's fact.
Could it cost us in the dance? Sure, but define that? What if we lose 62-60, and we score 1 pt/possession & they score 1.03 (e.g. 60 possessions). I'd argue we lost because our D' wasn't as good as it normally was, and maybe we played a couple better offensive guys too many minutes in place of a couple better defenders? A loss can fall on both ends of the floor. If it's a score like Saturday, then yes - the offense COULD hurt us. But it's been more than anomaly than the norm of late.
Ultimately the objective is to find the players which bring the best blend of O & D, and I think Fisher has a pretty good handle on that.
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Post by sdcoug on Mar 2, 2015 11:33:29 GMT -8
Just keep thinking that our offense is good enough and that it is not a problem in wait-and-see until we lose again because of it. Do you not think 46 points is a problem in a college basketball game? That is absolutely atrocious. For a team that gets as much talent as we do, being in the top 300 out of 350 is an absolute joke and Fisher should be focusing on that. If not we will not continue to improve in the big tournament. I mean geez I am a huge Aztec fan here, I get tired of all these other fans who thinks nothing is wrong. As mentioned many times before, we are not judged to win our conference we are judged to make a big run in the big tournament. Those days of just trying to win conference are long gone.PS. No they're not. That will always be the first goal for this team. Like most teams, getting INTO the dance is objective #1. We're not Duke, Kentucky, Wisky or even Arizona yet. Making a nice tourney run is #2, and frosting. Are you going to say we didn't accomplish anything if we lose in the round of 32? I know I'm not that tainted or entitled, and realize it's a major feat & accomplishment to even get that close & make it to the S16 is very elite. I'm OK with being among the top 10%, and ecstatic if we're among the top 5% of all programs (S16). Beyond that...wow.
In the meantime I'm going to enjoy the ride, not bitch about it. I'm as frustrated by the lack of O Saturday as you were, but don't ignore the big picture. This is a good basketball team. IMO among the top 25-30 in the nation. But so is BSU.
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Post by ctap13 on Mar 2, 2015 11:41:54 GMT -8
Just keep thinking that our offense is good enough and that it is not a problem in wait-and-see until we lose again because of it. Do you not think 46 points is a problem in a college basketball game? That is absolutely atrocious. For a team that gets as much talent as we do, being in the top 300 out of 350 is an absolute joke and Fisher should be focusing on that. If not we will not continue to improve in the big tournament. I mean geez I am a huge Aztec fan here, I get tired of all these other fans who thinks nothing is wrong. As mentioned many times before, we are not judged to win our conference we are judged to make a big run in the big tournament. Those days of just trying to win conference are long gone. Why do you keep harping on being #300 in total points scored when you know that's not a relevant stat? Anyone, and I mean ANYONE who follows the game knows that's biased by tempo, and we're not an uptempo team. Because our D' is so good teams take a lot of time on their end of the court trying to score, and they're unsuccessful more often than not. Thus the game slows and we'll never be in the top 150 or so in overall scoring. However, we're top 4 in the country defensively. Top 4!
We're an average offensive team. We're ABOVE AVERAGE within our own conference. They're no disputing that. We average 1.029 pts/possession during conference play, even after Saturday's game. BSU is #1 - 1.112, CSU #2 - 1.102, USU is #3 at 1.075, UNLV is #4 at 1.071 and we're #5. The league average is 1.02.
On the flip side we BLOW AWAY every other team defensively. BSU is #2, and when you combine O' & D' efficiency stats we're right behind BSU (.16 vs. .14). CSU, which is a very good offensive team, is 3rd (.13). All are different ways at getting the same outcome.
I'd love it if our O was better & like you I'd like to see us run more sets, whereas we're more free flow offensively, allowing the players to be creative. Players love that though - there's no denying that. But although I'd love to see us run more motion sets and/or back picks, etc., I'm also not blind to the fact that over the past month we were one of the better offensive teams anywhere. During the last 4 games we averaged 1.13 pts/possession, which is impressive & among the best nationally. Prior to Saturday, during February we averaged 1.08, which also is among the very best. Saturday dropped us to 1.04, but it was one game.
I'm also bright enough to realize that if you only put our best offensive players on the floor our D' will suffer. Would the gain offensively, offset the loss defensively? Who knows, but it's not who we are. We're an elite defensive team.
You can choose to ignore the fact that we have been much better over the past month, and Saturday was just 1 game. But it's fact.
Could it cost us in the dance? Sure, but define that? What if we lose 62-60, and we score 1 pt/possession & they score 1.03 (e.g. 60 possessions). I'd argue we lost because our D' wasn't as good as it normally was, and maybe we played a couple better offensive guys too many minutes in place of a couple better defenders? A loss can fall on both ends of the floor. If it's a score like Saturday, then yes - the offense COULD hurt us. But it's been more than anomaly than the norm of late.
Ultimately the objective is to find the players which bring the best blend of O & D, and I think Fisher has a pretty good handle on that.
Not a relevant stat? Really? What is the real Stat then? I am sorry man nothing personal but this post is absolutely ludicrous. We are one of the worst offense of teams in the nation and we lose a lot of games because of it is my point. Putting up 46 points against not a good defense of team at home is completely downright ridiculous. Fisher should be ashamed running out of offense like that.
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Post by ctap13 on Mar 2, 2015 11:44:24 GMT -8
Just keep thinking that our offense is good enough and that it is not a problem in wait-and-see until we lose again because of it. Do you not think 46 points is a problem in a college basketball game? That is absolutely atrocious. For a team that gets as much talent as we do, being in the top 300 out of 350 is an absolute joke and Fisher should be focusing on that. If not we will not continue to improve in the big tournament. I mean geez I am a huge Aztec fan here, I get tired of all these other fans who thinks nothing is wrong. As mentioned many times before, we are not judged to win our conference we are judged to make a big run in the big tournament. Those days of just trying to win conference are long gone.PS. No they're not. That will always be the first goal for this team. Like most teams, getting INTO the dance is objective #1. We're not Duke, Kentucky, Wisky or even Arizona yet. Making a nice tourney run is #2, and frosting. Are you going to say we didn't accomplish anything if we lose in the round of 32? I know I'm not that tainted or entitled, and realize it's a major feat & accomplishment to even get that close & make it to the S16 is very elite. I'm OK with being among the top 10%, and ecstatic if we're among the top 5% of all programs (S16). Beyond that...wow.
In the meantime I'm going to enjoy the ride, not bitch about it. I'm as frustrated by the lack of O Saturday as you were, but don't ignore the big picture. This is a good basketball team. IMO among the top 25-30 in the nation. But so is BSU.
And that is where your problem is. When we get players like we have been getting we are expected to do more than just win conference. Cannot even explain how amazed I am that I need to discuss this stuff with you. You're smarter than this.
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Post by sdcoug on Mar 2, 2015 12:08:19 GMT -8
Why do you keep harping on being #300 in total points scored when you know that's not a relevant stat? Anyone, and I mean ANYONE who follows the game knows that's biased by tempo, and we're not an uptempo team. Because our D' is so good teams take a lot of time on their end of the court trying to score, and they're unsuccessful more often than not. Thus the game slows and we'll never be in the top 150 or so in overall scoring. However, we're top 4 in the country defensively. Top 4!
We're an average offensive team. We're ABOVE AVERAGE within our own conference. They're no disputing that. We average 1.029 pts/possession during conference play, even after Saturday's game. BSU is #1 - 1.112, CSU #2 - 1.102, USU is #3 at 1.075, UNLV is #4 at 1.071 and we're #5. The league average is 1.02.
On the flip side we BLOW AWAY every other team defensively. BSU is #2, and when you combine O' & D' efficiency stats we're right behind BSU (.16 vs. .14). CSU, which is a very good offensive team, is 3rd (.13). All are different ways at getting the same outcome.
I'd love it if our O was better & like you I'd like to see us run more sets, whereas we're more free flow offensively, allowing the players to be creative. Players love that though - there's no denying that. But although I'd love to see us run more motion sets and/or back picks, etc., I'm also not blind to the fact that over the past month we were one of the better offensive teams anywhere. During the last 4 games we averaged 1.13 pts/possession, which is impressive & among the best nationally. Prior to Saturday, during February we averaged 1.08, which also is among the very best. Saturday dropped us to 1.04, but it was one game.
I'm also bright enough to realize that if you only put our best offensive players on the floor our D' will suffer. Would the gain offensively, offset the loss defensively? Who knows, but it's not who we are. We're an elite defensive team.
You can choose to ignore the fact that we have been much better over the past month, and Saturday was just 1 game. But it's fact.
Could it cost us in the dance? Sure, but define that? What if we lose 62-60, and we score 1 pt/possession & they score 1.03 (e.g. 60 possessions). I'd argue we lost because our D' wasn't as good as it normally was, and maybe we played a couple better offensive guys too many minutes in place of a couple better defenders? A loss can fall on both ends of the floor. If it's a score like Saturday, then yes - the offense COULD hurt us. But it's been more than anomaly than the norm of late.
Ultimately the objective is to find the players which bring the best blend of O & D, and I think Fisher has a pretty good handle on that.
Not a relevant stat? Really? What is the real Stat then?
I am sorry man nothing personal but this post is absolutely ludicrous. We are one of the worst offense of teams in the nation and we lose a lot of games because of it is my point. Putting up 46 points against not a good defense of team at home is completely downright ridiculous. Fisher should be ashamed running out of offense like that. Are you blind? Dyslexic? Just can't read? I quoted the relevant stats in multiple threads. POINTS PER POSSESSION - how many points who score every time you have a possession. A team that plays fast (70+ possessions) but only scores 1.0 pts/possession (e.g. 70 pts/game) is NOT better than a team that is solid defensively & only plays 62 possessions but scores 1.05 pts/possession (65 pts/game). 70 is NOT better than 65 in this instance because the opposing team could be scoring more per possession, and 1.0 is NOT GOOD.
Let me spell it out in a simpler manner: BYU is 2nd in points/game at 84. They average 70 possessions per game, or about 1.174 pts/possession (adj). That's good. Wisconsin ranks 79th in points per game at 71.5, but because they are also very good defensively & because they don't push it as much offensively, they only average 59 possessions per game. Their points/possession is 1.221, which is the BEST in the nation. When they have the ball on offense they score more often than BYU. They are the more efficient offense.
We rank 181st on the season at 1.015, which is around the average nationally (1.02). In conference play we've improved & sit at 1.029, which ranks 5th. Again, close to average. Over the past month it's MUCH higher.
I just quoted you the relevant stats, but apparently you need it repeated multiple times for comprehension purposes:
1. In conference play, and even before that, we are an AVERAGE offensive team 2. Over the past month we are an above average offensive team 3. During the past couple weeks we've been an elite offensive team 4. Saturday we stunk
Nobody is denying we stunk Saturday, but SOME of us choose not to ignore the fact we've actually been pretty good offensively, especially during February. Our identity is on D'; the goal is to be an elite D' team, while outscoring our opponent. Usually that means just being average offensively. We've had a few games this year where we went in the tank, as do most teams. BSU has our number this year, as we've had theirs before.
BTW, even the best offensive teams (Wisky) lay eggs & have off nights. You'd expect an average team to have a few, if not more. We did.
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Post by sdcoug on Mar 2, 2015 12:17:36 GMT -8
PS. No they're not. That will always be the first goal for this team. Like most teams, getting INTO the dance is objective #1. We're not Duke, Kentucky, Wisky or even Arizona yet. Making a nice tourney run is #2, and frosting. Are you going to say we didn't accomplish anything if we lose in the round of 32? I know I'm not that tainted or entitled, and realize it's a major feat & accomplishment to even get that close & make it to the S16 is very elite. I'm OK with being among the top 10%, and ecstatic if we're among the top 5% of all programs (S16). Beyond that...wow.
In the meantime I'm going to enjoy the ride, not bitch about it. I'm as frustrated by the lack of O Saturday as you were, but don't ignore the big picture. This is a good basketball team. IMO among the top 25-30 in the nation. But so is BSU.
And that is where your problem is. When we get players like we have been getting we are expected to do more than just win conference. Cannot even explain how amazed I am that I need to discuss this stuff with you. You're smarter than this. Why? Using ESPN as a source, over the past 3 years we've had 1 class ranked in the top 25 & that's the '14 crop, which was at #17. That's arguably our best class ever & they're freshmen, and definitely the best class among this roster. Even then, it's not S16.
So why should I EXPECT more than getting in the dance? We've got some great talent, but so have a lot of other schools.
I'm hopeful we get to the S16 but in no way do I feel entitled to it, or would I be disappointed not making it. Getting into the dance is an accomplishment, yet it's the norm for us. But to do that you still have to win the conference. Winning 1 game in the dance is great; 2 is awesome. Beyond that is special & rare.
You should enjoy the ride & be proud of the fact we're one of only a few who've been in the dance the past 6 years.
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Post by northcountymike on Mar 2, 2015 13:20:48 GMT -8
And that is where your problem is. When we get players like we have been getting we are expected to do more than just win conference. Cannot even explain how amazed I am that I need to discuss this stuff with you. You're smarter than this. Why? Using ESPN as a source, over the past 3 years we've had 1 class ranked in the top 25 & that's the '14 crop, which was at #17. That's arguably our best class ever & they're freshmen, and definitely the best class among this roster. Even then, it's not S16.
So why should I EXPECT more than getting in the dance? We've got some great talent, but so have a lot of other schools.
I'm hopeful we get to the S16 but in no way do I feel entitled to it, or would I be disappointed not making it. Getting into the dance is an accomplishment, yet it's the norm for us. But to do that you still have to win the conference. Winning 1 game in the dance is great; 2 is awesome. Beyond that is special & rare.
You should enjoy the ride & be proud of the fact we're one of only a few who've been in the dance the past 6 years.
While I agree with this, when are we going to stop patting ourselves on the back about how we've owned our conference for a few years now and how we get great recruiting classes every year but the results are the same? Are we going to beat the same drum in 5 years if we still can't get past the sweet 16? We need to stop rationalizing things or justifying them by implying that something like winning the conference is a huge, great accomplishment, which somehow softens the blow when we lose in the first or second round of the NCAAs. I could understand if we have been losing games for random reasons these past few years, but the truth is, we just haven't had a legit offense for a while now. We've had a few saviors (X and Jamaal), but nothing beyond that. "We've come a long way, enjoy the ride" is getting a bit tired. And no, it certainly doesn't make me less of a fan because I've come to expect more from "my" team. And please, spare me the whole "well, you haven't been a fan long enough to appreciate what we have now" argument. I've been a "fan" long enough to have my season tickets and not be on a waiting list for them... Besides, is it wrong to want and expect more?
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Post by sdcoug on Mar 2, 2015 16:33:20 GMT -8
Why? Using ESPN as a source, over the past 3 years we've had 1 class ranked in the top 25 & that's the '14 crop, which was at #17. That's arguably our best class ever & they're freshmen, and definitely the best class among this roster. Even then, it's not S16.
So why should I EXPECT more than getting in the dance? We've got some great talent, but so have a lot of other schools.
I'm hopeful we get to the S16 but in no way do I feel entitled to it, or would I be disappointed not making it. Getting into the dance is an accomplishment, yet it's the norm for us. But to do that you still have to win the conference. Winning 1 game in the dance is great; 2 is awesome. Beyond that is special & rare.
You should enjoy the ride & be proud of the fact we're one of only a few who've been in the dance the past 6 years.
While I agree with this, when are we going to stop patting ourselves on the back about how we've owned our conference for a few years now and how we get great recruiting classes every year but the results are the same? Are we going to beat the same drum in 5 years if we still can't get past the sweet 16? We need to stop rationalizing things or justifying them by implying that something like winning the conference is a huge, great accomplishment, which somehow softens the blow when we lose in the first or second round of the NCAAs. I could understand if we have been losing games for random reasons these past few years, but the truth is, we just haven't had a legit offense for a while now. We've had a few saviors (X and Jamaal), but nothing beyond that. "We've come a long way, enjoy the ride" is getting a bit tired. And no, it certainly doesn't make me less of a fan because I've come to expect more from "my" team. And please, spare me the whole "well, you haven't been a fan long enough to appreciate what we have now" argument. I've been a "fan" long enough to have my season tickets and not be on a waiting list for them... Besides, is it wrong to want and expect more? I don't think there's anything wrong with wanting or hoping for something beyond the S16, but I do believe it's silly to "expect" it. We are not Kentucky, duke or even Kansas, so for fans to be disappointed with not making the E8 to me is ridiculous. Most teams and programs never ever make the S16. We are sounding more and more like UCLA fans, some of the most whiney fans anywhere, and that's embarrassing. At least to me. We are a legitimate program in a decent basketball conference, and one of the top programs along the west coast. We are also one of the more consistent programs anywhere. What's wrong with enjoying that, rather than hearing some fans constantly bitching and whining because we are not the best? Talk about something getting OLD! We haven't had multiple, highly ranked recruiting classes on campus yet, unlike many other programs. Why is it wrong to be realistic, or to enjoy the ride? There's a differnce, IMO, between being realistic and rationalizing something for no reason. BTW, I wouldn't attribute all our losses this year to the offense. The CSU loss was On our D. curious, how would you define "legit offense"? We are average this year. The stats bear that out. Is averages not "legit"? Do we have to be elite offensively AND defensively to be "legit"?
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Post by ctap13 on Mar 3, 2015 7:32:24 GMT -8
Lol that's your problem right there. ^ you are blind to our putrid offense. 46 points at home against a unranked team is a big big big problem!
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Post by jpaztec on Mar 4, 2015 10:00:46 GMT -8
I think few realize that top ranked programs across the country have had VERY low scoring games this year, and every year. Did our offense stink against Boise? Yep, no denying it. I also think it was one of our worst team performances of the season. We were bad across the board, and to be honest I blame our lack of rebounding over our lack of offense.
The past few seasons we've thrived on defense, and that has won us the majority of our games, along with Thames and Jamaal's timely shooting. Now, we have our highest ranked class ever on campus as FRESHMEN, one of which is red shirting, one of which is riding the pine, one of which has only played ball for 4 of the past 24 months, and one of which is an out of position point guard. So YES, I do believe that this season we can't expect a ton more than a win of two in the dance. As Sdcoug said, the rest is the icing on the cake. Our offense will get better in the coming seasons, because we've finally recruited scorers, but to be honest, there's a chance it may come at a cost to us on the defensive side of the ball, in which case, people will be bitching about how we're only average on D and despite scoring 75 a game we're still losing a game here and there a la BYU.
There are very few complete teams in college bball, take a look at Virginia, they play nasty D, and don't score at a fast clip, but they're a stud team and Final 4 contender. Personally, I'd rather take a strong defense and average offense as opposed to the other way around. Offense can get hot a lot easier than defense can.
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Post by sdsustoner on Mar 4, 2015 10:43:17 GMT -8
Just keep thinking that our offense is good enough and that it is not a problem in wait-and-see until we lose again because of it. Do you not think 46 points is a problem in a college basketball game? That is absolutely atrocious. For a team that gets as much talent as we do, being in the top 300 out of 350 is an absolute joke and Fisher should be focusing on that. If not we will not continue to improve in the big tournament. I mean geez I am a huge Aztec fan here, I get tired of all these other fans who thinks nothing is wrong. As mentioned many times before, we are not judged to win our conference we are judged to make a big run in the big tournament. Those days of just trying to win conference are long gone. Why do you keep harping on being #300 in total points scored when you know that's not a relevant stat? Anyone, and I mean ANYONE who follows the game knows that's biased by tempo, and we're not an uptempo team. Because our D' is so good teams take a lot of time on their end of the court trying to score, and they're unsuccessful more often than not. Thus the game slows and we'll never be in the top 150 or so in overall scoring. However, we're top 4 in the country defensively. Top 4!
We're an average offensive team. We're ABOVE AVERAGE within our own conference. They're no disputing that. We average 1.029 pts/possession during conference play, even after Saturday's game. BSU is #1 - 1.112, CSU #2 - 1.102, USU is #3 at 1.075, UNLV is #4 at 1.071 and we're #5. The league average is 1.02.
On the flip side we BLOW AWAY every other team defensively. BSU is #2, and when you combine O' & D' efficiency stats we're right behind BSU (.16 vs. .14). CSU, which is a very good offensive team, is 3rd (.13). All are different ways at getting the same outcome.
I'd love it if our O was better & like you I'd like to see us run more sets, whereas we're more free flow offensively, allowing the players to be creative. Players love that though - there's no denying that. But although I'd love to see us run more motion sets and/or back picks, etc., I'm also not blind to the fact that over the past month we were one of the better offensive teams anywhere. During the last 4 games we averaged 1.13 pts/possession, which is impressive & among the best nationally. Prior to Saturday, during February we averaged 1.08, which also is among the very best. Saturday dropped us to 1.04, but it was one game.
I'm also bright enough to realize that if you only put our best offensive players on the floor our D' will suffer. Would the gain offensively, offset the loss defensively? Who knows, but it's not who we are. We're an elite defensive team.
You can choose to ignore the fact that we have been much better over the past month, and Saturday was just 1 game. But it's fact.
Could it cost us in the dance? Sure, but define that? What if we lose 62-60, and we score 1 pt/possession & they score 1.03 (e.g. 60 possessions). I'd argue we lost because our D' wasn't as good as it normally was, and maybe we played a couple better offensive guys too many minutes in place of a couple better defenders? A loss can fall on both ends of the floor. If it's a score like Saturday, then yes - the offense COULD hurt us. But it's been more than anomaly than the norm of late.
Ultimately the objective is to find the players which bring the best blend of O & D, and I think Fisher has a pretty good handle on that.
Awesome post.
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Post by sdsustoner on Mar 4, 2015 10:45:54 GMT -8
Lol that's your problem right there. ^ you are blind to our putrid offense. 46 points at home against a unranked team is a big big big problem! Using your logic, our offense is great because we had 92 points against an unranked team on a tiny island.
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Post by northcountymike on Mar 4, 2015 12:36:13 GMT -8
While I agree with this, when are we going to stop patting ourselves on the back about how we've owned our conference for a few years now and how we get great recruiting classes every year but the results are the same? Are we going to beat the same drum in 5 years if we still can't get past the sweet 16? We need to stop rationalizing things or justifying them by implying that something like winning the conference is a huge, great accomplishment, which somehow softens the blow when we lose in the first or second round of the NCAAs. I could understand if we have been losing games for random reasons these past few years, but the truth is, we just haven't had a legit offense for a while now. We've had a few saviors (X and Jamaal), but nothing beyond that. "We've come a long way, enjoy the ride" is getting a bit tired. And no, it certainly doesn't make me less of a fan because I've come to expect more from "my" team. And please, spare me the whole "well, you haven't been a fan long enough to appreciate what we have now" argument. I've been a "fan" long enough to have my season tickets and not be on a waiting list for them... Besides, is it wrong to want and expect more? I don't think there's anything wrong with wanting or hoping for something beyond the S16, but I do believe it's silly to "expect" it. We are not Kentucky, duke or even Kansas, so for fans to be disappointed with not making the E8 to me is ridiculous. Most teams and programs never ever make the S16. We are sounding more and more like UCLA fans, some of the most whiney fans anywhere, and that's embarrassing. At least to me. We are a legitimate program in a decent basketball conference, and one of the top programs along the west coast. We are also one of the more consistent programs anywhere. What's wrong with enjoying that, rather than hearing some fans constantly bitching and whining because we are not the best? Talk about something getting OLD! We haven't had multiple, highly ranked recruiting classes on campus yet, unlike many other programs. Why is it wrong to be realistic, or to enjoy the ride? There's a differnce, IMO, between being realistic and rationalizing something for no reason. BTW, I wouldn't attribute all our losses this year to the offense. The CSU loss was On our D. curious, how would you define "legit offense"? We are average this year. The stats bear that out. Is averages not "legit"? Do we have to be elite offensively AND defensively to be "legit"? Herein lies the problem, I think. You say, " We are not Kentucky, Duke, or even Kansas, so for fans to be disappointed with not making the E8 to me is ridiculous. Most teams and programs never ever make the S16." You've basically just conceded that it's ok to never be like them; to be winners. Sounds pretty defeatist to me. I'm curious, just how long are we expected to put up with it? I can enjoy that we're one of the most consistent programs anywhere, and I've been enjoying it for more than a few years now... Regarding highly-ranked classes, sure, we got a good one last year. However, it usually doesn't take blueblood schools 3 and 4 years to develop their "star" freshmen. I'm also not buying the argument that we've recruited "scorers." It seems like we recruit athletes in the hopes that they can score. We get lucky every now and then and a player or two becomes the go-to-guy (X or Jamaal). But, we haven't had a team that can put points on the board for almost 5 seasons now. I'm as realistic as they come and others have bashed me for calling out the team about glaring issues (i.e. the lack of an offense). Ok, let's just say the CSU loss was on our D (I think, however, that sometimes a team gets hot shooting and there isn't much you can do; same goes with our loss at BSU). How many losses could be attributed to a true lack of D? Maybe one or two? On the flip side, how many losses have we had because of our lack of offense? Quite a few. Lack of offense = running "set" plays, missing shots, missing free throws, etc. With an offense, I think we beat Washington, Cincy, Boise (at home), and probably Arizona...
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Post by sdcoug on Mar 4, 2015 14:23:17 GMT -8
Herein lies the problem, I think. You say, " We are not Kentucky, Duke, or even Kansas, so for fans to be disappointed with not making the E8 to me is ridiculous. Most teams and programs never ever make the S16." You've basically just conceded that it's ok to never be like them; to be winners. Sounds pretty defeatist to me. I'm curious, just how long are we expected to put up with it? I can enjoy that we're one of the most consistent programs anywhere, and I've been enjoying it for more than a few years now... Regarding highly-ranked classes, sure, we got a good one last year. However, it usually doesn't take blueblood schools 3 and 4 years to develop their "star" freshmen. I'm also not buying the argument that we've recruited "scorers." It seems like we recruit athletes in the hopes that they can score. We get lucky every now and then and a player or two becomes the go-to-guy (X or Jamaal). But, we haven't had a team that can put points on the board for almost 5 seasons now. I'm as realistic as they come and others have bashed me for calling out the team about glaring issues (i.e. the lack of an offense). Ok, let's just say the CSU loss was on our D (I think, however, that sometimes a team gets hot shooting and there isn't much you can do; same goes with our loss at BSU). How many losses could be attributed to a true lack of D? Maybe one or two? On the flip side, how many losses have we had because of our lack of offense? Quite a few. Lack of offense = running "set" plays, missing shots, missing free throws, etc. With an offense, I think we beat Washington, Cincy, Boise (at home), and probably Arizona...
Saying we're not going to be Kentucky or Duke or Kansas isn't "defeatist". It's being a realist, and it's based on facts. MONEY is critical in collegiate sports today, and a team operating on a fraction of the budget of a big time program is going to struggle to keep up. Those top tier schools attract more top tier talent for a reason. Doesn't mean you can't beat them occasionally (see Kansas) or even have a better year here or there, but overall - those are MUCH better programs & the elite, while the odds of us doing the same w/o a significant influx of money are very low.
What's funny is your statement "how long are we expected to 'put up with it'"? Huh? "Put up" with contending for a conference championship year after year? "Put up" with going to the NCAA tournament every year for 5 (now 6) years straight? "Put up" with going to the S16 2 of the prior 4 years. Yea, that sucks. We shouldn't "put up" with that any longer. No way. Listen to yourself - how entitled do you think you are? Over the past 6 years you're supporting a program that's among the top 5-10% in the country.
SDSU basketball is the very definition of success. We're a top 20-30 program nationally, if not higher when you factor in consistency. That, while operating on one of if not THE the smallest budgets among those same 20-30 programs.
As for developing players, you must not have read my email. We've been among the top 25 recruiting classes ONCE in the past 5 years, yet we're among the top 25 programs overall during that same timeframe! Do you think WE develop players while everyone else stands still? Our best, or highest recruit, didn't even practice fully for a couple months. We're not recruiting on the same plain as Duke, Kentucky, Kansas, etc. We don't have private jets for recruiting; we don't have elite locker rooms; we don't have a budget that allows us to fly charter to all our games. You don't think that matters?
Yea, I'd love to have a great offensive AND defensive team. I'd love to get 2-3 5-star recruits each year, and be loaded with McDonald's All-Americans. We don't. We're not. THEY ARE.
Fisher & crew should be COMMENDED for their recruiting, in spite of the hurdles. They should be commended for having a team identity, which is defense. Would you rather be BYU & score a ton but still lose? Indiana? Pittsburgh?
I don't disagree with you about our offense, and lack of sets/movement, etc. I'm not a fan of giving the players a lot of latitude & freedom, but they like it & it works most often than not. Personally, I've love to be Virginia & run the mover/blocker w/ the same level of D, but a lot of players don't like that style either.
"Haven't been a team that puts points on the board" - Really? Ultimately what matters is how efficient you are, and most important is whether you score more points per possession that you give up. Hopefully you agree with that. Winning 60-58 isn't any different than winning 70-68. Here's where we've ranked NATIONALLY over the past 5 years, with where we ranked within the conference in parenthesis (Adj Points/Possession per Kenpom):
2010: Offensive efficiency - 49th (3rd); Defensive efficiency - 40th (3rd) 2011: O - 32nd (2nd); D - 2nd (1st) 2012: O - 105th (5th); D - 49th (2nd) 2013: O - 95th (5th); D - 17th (3rd) 2014: O - 81st (6th); D - 9th (1st) 2015: O - 181st (5th); D - 4th (1st)
We've always been among the best defensive teams not only within our conference, but nationally. We've ALSO been better than average offensively - even top 25% half the time - up until THIS YEAR, where we're still about average. That's a pretty damn good combination. Whether it's Franklin, X or whoever scoring, it doesn't matter. All that matters is we put the ball in the hoop. You reference 4 games (out of 29) where we lost due to our offense. Want to check other programs & see how many THEY'VE lost due to the occasionally offensive issues? Check out national power Florida. 2 of those 4 were road games, where MANY teams struggle (Cincy is a top 20 defensive team nationally); the other was to a top 5-10 program nationally on a neutral court, and they're one of the best defenses ANYWHERE - 3rd nationally (& we shot a higher % than they did). Yea, losing those sucked, but most teams lose games that suck. IMO there have been 3 disappointing game - UW, who was playing well at the time; at Fresno, and BSU at home. THREE! How many programs don't have 3 frustrating, or bad losses? BTW, BSU is the 2nd best defensive team in our conference. They've held several other offenses to worse production than we had.
And up until last Saturday we've actually been pretty good offensively - among the better teams nationally during the month of February. So maybe, just MAYBE, Saturday was an anomaly given the past month? We'll see. Maybe our O will haunt us, but our D will give us a chance.
Dude, you can be all pissed off & disappointed, & "expect" to be Duke or Kentucky, but there are over 320 D1 programs who would trade places with you in a heartbeat, including MOST of the entire west coast.
IMO, we've OVERACHIEVED as a program, not underachieved especially given the financials, and we should all be proud of that. Not whining. Complain about the game; discuss offensive changes. I get that. But to complain about the program & where we are or what we've achieved? Wow.
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Post by jpaztec on Mar 4, 2015 14:33:55 GMT -8
Herein lies the problem, I think. You say, " We are not Kentucky, Duke, or even Kansas, so for fans to be disappointed with not making the E8 to me is ridiculous. Most teams and programs never ever make the S16." You've basically just conceded that it's ok to never be like them; to be winners. Sounds pretty defeatist to me. I'm curious, just how long are we expected to put up with it? I can enjoy that we're one of the most consistent programs anywhere, and I've been enjoying it for more than a few years now... Regarding highly-ranked classes, sure, we got a good one last year. However, it usually doesn't take blueblood schools 3 and 4 years to develop their "star" freshmen. I'm also not buying the argument that we've recruited "scorers." It seems like we recruit athletes in the hopes that they can score. We get lucky every now and then and a player or two becomes the go-to-guy (X or Jamaal). But, we haven't had a team that can put points on the board for almost 5 seasons now. I'm as realistic as they come and others have bashed me for calling out the team about glaring issues (i.e. the lack of an offense). Ok, let's just say the CSU loss was on our D (I think, however, that sometimes a team gets hot shooting and there isn't much you can do; same goes with our loss at BSU). How many losses could be attributed to a true lack of D? Maybe one or two? On the flip side, how many losses have we had because of our lack of offense? Quite a few. Lack of offense = running "set" plays, missing shots, missing free throws, etc. With an offense, I think we beat Washington, Cincy, Boise (at home), and probably Arizona...
Saying we're not going to be Kentucky or Duke or Kansas isn't "defeatist". It's being a realist, and it's based on facts. MONEY is critical in collegiate sports today, and a team operating on a fraction of the budget of a big time program is going to struggle to keep up. Those top tier schools attract more top tier talent for a reason. Doesn't mean you can't beat them occasionally (see Kansas) or even have a better year here or there, but overall - those are MUCH better programs & the elite, while the odds of us doing the same w/o a significant influx of money are very low.
What's funny is your statement "how long are we expected to 'put up with it'"? Huh? "Put up" with contending for a conference championship year after year? "Put up" with going to the NCAA tournament every year for 5 (now 6) years straight? "Put up" with going to the S16 2 of the prior 4 years. Yea, that sucks. We shouldn't "put up" with that any longer. No way. Listen to yourself - how entitled do you think you are? Over the past 6 years you're supporting a program that's among the top 5-10% in the country.
SDSU basketball is the very definition of success. We're a top 20-30 program nationally, if not higher when you factor in consistency. That, while operating on one of if not THE the smallest budgets among those same 20-30 programs.
As for developing players, you must not have read my email. We've been among the top 25 recruiting classes ONCE in the past 5 years, yet we're among the top 25 programs overall during that same timeframe! Do you think WE develop players while everyone else stands still? Our best, or highest recruit, didn't even practice fully for a couple months. We're not recruiting on the same plain as Duke, Kentucky, Kansas, etc. We don't have private jets for recruiting; we don't have elite locker rooms; we don't have a budget that allows us to fly charter to all our games. You don't think that matters?
Yea, I'd love to have a great offensive AND defensive team. I'd love to get 2-3 5-star recruits each year, and be loaded with McDonald's All-Americans. We don't. We're not. THEY ARE.
Fisher & crew should be COMMENDED for their recruiting, in spite of the hurdles. They should be commended for having a team identity, which is defense. Would you rather be BYU & score a ton but still lose? Indiana? Pittsburgh?
I don't disagree with you about our offense, and lack of sets/movement, etc. I'm not a fan of giving the players a lot of latitude & freedom, but they like it & it works most often than not. Personally, I've love to be Virginia & run the mover/blocker w/ the same level of D, but a lot of players don't like that style either.
"Haven't been a team that puts points on the board" - Really? Ultimately what matters is how efficient you are, and most important is whether you score more points per possession that you give up. Hopefully you agree with that. Winning 60-58 isn't any different than winning 70-68. Here's where we've ranked NATIONALLY over the past 5 years, with where we ranked within the conference in parenthesis (Adj Points/Possession per Kenpom):
2010: Offensive efficiency - 49th (3rd); Defensive efficiency - 40th (3rd) 2011: O - 32nd (2nd); D - 2nd (1st) 2012: O - 105th (5th); D - 49th (2nd) 2013: O - 95th (5th); D - 17th (3rd) 2014: O - 81st (6th); D - 9th (1st) 2015: O - 181st (5th); D - 4th (1st)
We've always been among the best defensive teams not only within our conference, but nationally. We've ALSO been better than average offensively - even top 25% half the time - up until THIS YEAR, where we're still about average. That's a pretty damn good combination. Whether it's Franklin, X or whoever scoring, it doesn't matter. All that matters is we put the ball in the hoop. You reference 4 games (out of 29) where we lost due to our offense. Want to check other programs & see how many THEY'VE lost due to the occasionally offensive issues? Check out national power Florida. 2 of those 4 were road games, where MANY teams struggle (Cincy is a top 20 defensive team nationally); the other was to a top 5-10 program nationally on a neutral court, and they're one of the best defenses ANYWHERE - 3rd nationally (& we shot a higher % than they did). Yea, losing those sucked, but most teams lose games that suck. IMO there have been 3 disappointing game - UW, who was playing well at the time; at Fresno, and BSU at home. THREE! How many programs don't have 3 frustrating, or bad losses? BTW, BSU is the 2nd best defensive team in our conference. They've held several other offenses to worse production than we had.
And up until last Saturday we've actually been pretty good offensively - among the better teams nationally during the month of February. So maybe, just MAYBE, Saturday was an anomaly given the past month? We'll see. Maybe our O will haunt us, but our D will give us a chance.
Dude, you can be all pissed off & disappointed, & "expect" to be Duke or Kentucky, but there are over 320 D1 programs who would trade places with you in a heartbeat, including MOST of the entire west coast.
IMO, we've OVERACHIEVED as a program, not underachieved especially given the financials, and we should all be proud of that. Not whining. Complain about the game; discuss offensive changes. I get that. But to complain about the program & where we are or what we've achieved? Wow.
And drop the motha#%&'in' mic! Couldn't have said it much better. Enjoy the ride folks, and who knows, maybe this will be the team that catches fire at the right time and makes that Elite 8 you think we so rightfully "deserve". Support our team, they deserve that.
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Post by NCAztec82 on Mar 4, 2015 17:33:45 GMT -8
Complaining about "offense" makes me wonder whether you have ever actually played basketball. It's not like you change players when you change possession like football. Whiners complaining about "offense" cannot seem to understand that scoring more points than the other team is not a simplistic function of having an "offense." That is why efficiency matters more than raw scoring.
We still would have beat BSU, IMO, if we had rebounded better, not played better "offense."
It's funny how no one complains about lack of offense when the shots are dropping. It's the same "offense," just more confident (therefore, better) shooting.
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Post by AztecBill on Mar 4, 2015 17:44:59 GMT -8
Complaining about "offense" makes me wonder whether you have ever actually played basketball. It's not like you change players when you change possession like football. Whiners complaining about "offense" cannot seem to understand that scoring more points than the other team is not a simplistic function of having an "offense." That is why efficiency matters more than raw scoring. We still would have beat BSU, IMO, if we had rebounded better, not played better "offense." It's funny how no one complains about lack of offense when the shots are dropping. It's the same "offense," just more confident (therefore, better) shooting. In the Points per Possession Stat, offensive rebounds make the ensuing play merely a continuation of the possession that resulted in the miss that was rebounded. Possessions = FGA - ORB + TO
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Post by bballfan11 on Mar 4, 2015 17:48:46 GMT -8
Saying we're not going to be Kentucky or Duke or Kansas isn't "defeatist". It's being a realist, and it's based on facts. MONEY is critical in collegiate sports today, and a team operating on a fraction of the budget of a big time program is going to struggle to keep up. Those top tier schools attract more top tier talent for a reason. Doesn't mean you can't beat them occasionally (see Kansas) or even have a better year here or there, but overall - those are MUCH better programs & the elite, while the odds of us doing the same w/o a significant influx of money are very low.
What's funny is your statement "how long are we expected to 'put up with it'"? Huh? "Put up" with contending for a conference championship year after year? "Put up" with going to the NCAA tournament every year for 5 (now 6) years straight? "Put up" with going to the S16 2 of the prior 4 years. Yea, that sucks. We shouldn't "put up" with that any longer. No way. Listen to yourself - how entitled do you think you are? Over the past 6 years you're supporting a program that's among the top 5-10% in the country.
SDSU basketball is the very definition of success. We're a top 20-30 program nationally, if not higher when you factor in consistency. That, while operating on one of if not THE the smallest budgets among those same 20-30 programs.
As for developing players, you must not have read my email. We've been among the top 25 recruiting classes ONCE in the past 5 years, yet we're among the top 25 programs overall during that same timeframe! Do you think WE develop players while everyone else stands still? Our best, or highest recruit, didn't even practice fully for a couple months. We're not recruiting on the same plain as Duke, Kentucky, Kansas, etc. We don't have private jets for recruiting; we don't have elite locker rooms; we don't have a budget that allows us to fly charter to all our games. You don't think that matters?
Yea, I'd love to have a great offensive AND defensive team. I'd love to get 2-3 5-star recruits each year, and be loaded with McDonald's All-Americans. We don't. We're not. THEY ARE.
Fisher & crew should be COMMENDED for their recruiting, in spite of the hurdles. They should be commended for having a team identity, which is defense. Would you rather be BYU & score a ton but still lose? Indiana? Pittsburgh?
I don't disagree with you about our offense, and lack of sets/movement, etc. I'm not a fan of giving the players a lot of latitude & freedom, but they like it & it works most often than not. Personally, I've love to be Virginia & run the mover/blocker w/ the same level of D, but a lot of players don't like that style either.
"Haven't been a team that puts points on the board" - Really? Ultimately what matters is how efficient you are, and most important is whether you score more points per possession that you give up. Hopefully you agree with that. Winning 60-58 isn't any different than winning 70-68. Here's where we've ranked NATIONALLY over the past 5 years, with where we ranked within the conference in parenthesis (Adj Points/Possession per Kenpom):
2010: Offensive efficiency - 49th (3rd); Defensive efficiency - 40th (3rd) 2011: O - 32nd (2nd); D - 2nd (1st) 2012: O - 105th (5th); D - 49th (2nd) 2013: O - 95th (5th); D - 17th (3rd) 2014: O - 81st (6th); D - 9th (1st) 2015: O - 181st (5th); D - 4th (1st)
We've always been among the best defensive teams not only within our conference, but nationally. We've ALSO been better than average offensively - even top 25% half the time - up until THIS YEAR, where we're still about average. That's a pretty damn good combination. Whether it's Franklin, X or whoever scoring, it doesn't matter. All that matters is we put the ball in the hoop. You reference 4 games (out of 29) where we lost due to our offense. Want to check other programs & see how many THEY'VE lost due to the occasionally offensive issues? Check out national power Florida. 2 of those 4 were road games, where MANY teams struggle (Cincy is a top 20 defensive team nationally); the other was to a top 5-10 program nationally on a neutral court, and they're one of the best defenses ANYWHERE - 3rd nationally (& we shot a higher % than they did). Yea, losing those sucked, but most teams lose games that suck. IMO there have been 3 disappointing game - UW, who was playing well at the time; at Fresno, and BSU at home. THREE! How many programs don't have 3 frustrating, or bad losses? BTW, BSU is the 2nd best defensive team in our conference. They've held several other offenses to worse production than we had.
And up until last Saturday we've actually been pretty good offensively - among the better teams nationally during the month of February. So maybe, just MAYBE, Saturday was an anomaly given the past month? We'll see. Maybe our O will haunt us, but our D will give us a chance.
Dude, you can be all pissed off & disappointed, & "expect" to be Duke or Kentucky, but there are over 320 D1 programs who would trade places with you in a heartbeat, including MOST of the entire west coast.
IMO, we've OVERACHIEVED as a program, not underachieved especially given the financials, and we should all be proud of that. Not whining. Complain about the game; discuss offensive changes. I get that. But to complain about the program & where we are or what we've achieved? Wow.
And drop the motha#%&'in' mic! Couldn't have said it much better. Enjoy the ride folks, and who knows, maybe this will be the team that catches fire at the right time and makes that Elite 8 you think we so rightfully "deserve". Support our team, they deserve that. Sdcoug, if I was a better writer, I would have posted something very similar to your amazing post. This is exactly how I feel about our team. Although we haven't lived up to the lofty expectations going into this season, I still feel we are doing pretty well. Who knows how this season would have been without the loss of Polee. We had our BEST recruiting class EVER this year and I hope we continue this trend. The future still looks bright and I look forward to seeing how the end of the season plays out. Be positive Aztec fans!! Be happy that we live in this beautiful city and aren't shoveling snow 24/7.
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