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Post by aztecryan on Aug 20, 2024 16:40:19 GMT -8
It doesn't take long to type a response when you know what's coming. I don't feel the need to really placate to your wishes. I'm not talking about October 7th, which you're so incredibly hung up on. It's an extension of an existing conflict. That doesn't excuse the war crimes Israel has engaged in. As for war crimes, virtually every attack on Israel qualifies as a war crime. If Israel is guilty of committing war crimes, what punishment does it deserve?
Yes, it's an existing conflict. But it's a conflict with a beginning. Let's not forget that it was the Arab nations that started the war in 1948. As I have said, I do not say that Israel cannot be criticized. What I do say is that the Palestinians (the Arab nations that several times were at war with Israel are pretty much out of the fight now) have as their stated goal the extinction of the state of Israel. It is hard for me to understand why you downplay or outright ignore that fact.
Let me put it to you. Do you or do you not concede that the extinction of Israel is the stated goal of Hamas, etc.? It's a pretty straight forward question. From the river to the sea should give you a clue.
As long as I am asking questions, here is another. Do you believe that Israel has the right to exist in its present form?
AzWmPass.
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Post by AztecWilliam on Aug 20, 2024 17:15:51 GMT -8
As for war crimes, virtually every attack on Israel qualifies as a war crime. If Israel is guilty of committing war crimes, what punishment does it deserve?
Yes, it's an existing conflict. But it's a conflict with a beginning. Let's not forget that it was the Arab nations that started the war in 1948. As I have said, I do not say that Israel cannot be criticized. What I do say is that the Palestinians (the Arab nations that several times were at war with Israel are pretty much out of the fight now) have as their stated goal the extinction of the state of Israel. It is hard for me to understand why you downplay or outright ignore that fact.
Let me put it to you. Do you or do you not concede that the extinction of Israel is the stated goal of Hamas, etc.? It's a pretty straight forward question. From the river to the sea should give you a clue.
As long as I am asking questions, here is another. Do you believe that Israel has the right to exist in its present form?
AzWm Pass. Pass? Really? You decline to give your opinion of whether Hamas, etc., seek the extinction of Israel? You decline to state whether Israel has a right to exist? Interesting. You do, of course, realize that many people will assume that your refusal to answer indicates that your feelings are not friendly to the state of Israel.
AzWm
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Post by aztecryan on Aug 20, 2024 17:25:16 GMT -8
Pass? Really? You decline to give your opinion of whether Hamas, etc., seek the extinction of Israel? You decline to state whether Israel has a right to exist? Interesting. You do, of course, realize that many people will assume that your refusal to answer indicates that your feelings are not friendly to the state of Israel.
AzWm I graduated from high school, so I don't really care about the opinions or judgment of others. Nor do I really care about obvious, silly, baiting questions that are the opposite of what you claim to be seeking. You're pro-Israel. We get it. Once you're actively looking for truth, maybe we can revisit. But I'm not here to bark for you or placate to your lack of truth telling.
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Post by bnastyaztecs on Aug 20, 2024 17:47:10 GMT -8
Why is anyone bothering with AW?...what's the point?...everything has already been exhaustively discussed...he chooses to remain willfully ignorant about the issue...so let him be....
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Post by AztecWilliam on Aug 20, 2024 18:04:30 GMT -8
Pass? Really? You decline to give your opinion of whether Hamas, etc., seek the extinction of Israel? You decline to state whether Israel has a right to exist? Interesting. You do, of course, realize that many people will assume that your refusal to answer indicates that your feelings are not friendly to the state of Israel.
AzWm I graduated from high school, so I don't really care about the opinions or judgment of others. Nor do I really care about obvious, silly, baiting questions that are the opposite of what you claim to be seeking. You're pro-Israel. We get it. Once you're actively looking for truth, maybe we can revisit. But I'm not here to bark for you or placate to your lack of truth telling. You are correct on one thing; I am pro-Israel. I believe that Israel has a right to exist as it is now constituted.
However, I am also sympathetic towards the Palestinians. As I have said a number of times, when the Palestinians give up their goal of destroying Israel, peace in that region can be achieved.
And that's the last I will have to say on this thorny issue.
AzWm
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Post by aztecryan on Aug 20, 2024 18:26:23 GMT -8
I graduated from high school, so I don't really care about the opinions or judgment of others. Nor do I really care about obvious, silly, baiting questions that are the opposite of what you claim to be seeking. You're pro-Israel. We get it. Once you're actively looking for truth, maybe we can revisit. But I'm not here to bark for you or placate to your lack of truth telling. You are correct on one thing; I am pro-Israel. I believe that Israel has a right to exist as it is now constituted.
However, I am also sympathetic towards the Palestinians. As I have said a number of times, when the Palestinians give up their goal of destroying Israel, peace in that region can be achieved.
And that's the last I will have to say on this thorny issue.
AzWm
When Israel stops funding terrorism, too.
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Post by azson on Aug 21, 2024 8:42:11 GMT -8
It doesn't take long to type a response when you know what's coming. I don't feel the need to really placate to your wishes. I'm not talking about October 7th, which you're so incredibly hung up on. It's an extension of an existing conflict. That doesn't excuse the war crimes Israel has engaged in. As for war crimes, virtually every attack on Israel qualifies as a war crime. If Israel is guilty of committing war crimes, what punishment does it deserve?
Yes, it's an existing conflict. But it's a conflict with a beginning. Let's not forget that it was the Arab nations that started the war in 1948. As I have said, I do not say that Israel cannot be criticized. What I do say is that the Palestinians (the Arab nations that several times were at war with Israel are pretty much out of the fight now) have as their stated goal the extinction of the state of Israel. It is hard for me to understand why you downplay or outright ignore that fact.
Let me put it to you. Do you or do you not concede that the extinction of Israel is the stated goal of Hamas, etc.? It's a pretty straight forward question. From the river to the sea should give you a clue.
As long as I am asking questions, here is another. Do you believe that Israel has the right to exist in its present form?
AzWmGoogle Palestine loss of land 1947 to present and then get back to us on which side is being successfully exterminated.
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Post by AztecWilliam on Aug 21, 2024 13:05:07 GMT -8
Hate to go back on something I said, but I do have one or two more points to discuss.
First, I find it puzzling that I appear to be about the only AztecMesa member who does not believe that Israel is a contemptible purveyor of hatred and genocide. Yes, there are two sides to this conflict. But let's go back to 1948. The UN Partition Plan offered territory to each side. The Jews accepted the plan while the Arabs rejected it. The Arabs not only rejected the plan but started the first Arab/Israeli war.
It is important to take a look at the UN Partition Plan.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Arab%E2%80%93Israeli_conflict (The map is located in the section titled War of 1948.)
This is just my take, but it seems to me that UN plan would have given Jews a less advantageous area than it would have given the Arabs. Yet the Jews accepted the deal and the Arabs started a war in order to, it would seem, get the whole thing.
Second, I have more than once offered my opinion that the Israeli/Palestinian conflict could be solved if the latter would denounce its goal of destroying the state of Israel. The details of that settlement would be thorny and would require very difficult negotiations on both sides. But such accommodations would be worth the effort if a lasting peace could be achieved.
And here is where I have become aware of an article which backs my claim that the Palestinians seek the destruction of Israel. My source is Al Jazeera. The author is Samer Jaber, a political activist and researcher.
Here is a quote from his piece. www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2024/8/18/solidarity-with-palestine-must-be-about-decolonisation-not-just-ceasefire
It is essential for Palestinians and their allies to seize this moment and push for a solution that dismantles colonial structures and establishes a single, democratic state where all citizens, regardless of ethnicity or religion, are equal.
". . . a single, democratic state . . . How is it possible to read that quote without understanding that it assumes the elimination of Israel? Does Jaber suppose that Israel will come to it senses and voluntarily do away with itself? He does not call for military action to do away with Israel, but how else do you think this ". . . single, democratic state . . ." is to be created?
Okay, maybe I am totally off base on this point. Maybe Jaber really does think that Israel will voluntarily cease to exist.
No, I do not believe that, and I doubt that you do either. Conclusion: the Palestinians are going to have to give up their goal of eliminating Israel or this conflict will go on for another 100 years.
And that really is the last I have to say on this topic.
Really.
AzWm
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Post by aztecryan on Aug 21, 2024 14:16:44 GMT -8
Hate to go back on something I said, but I do have one or two more points to discuss.
First, I find it puzzling that I appear to be about the only AztecMesa member who does not believe that Israel is a contemptible purveyor of hatred and genocide. Yes, there are two sides to this conflict. But let's go back to 1948. The UN Partition Plan offered territory to each side. The Jews accepted the plan while the Arabs rejected it. The Arabs not only rejected the plan but started the first Arab/Israeli war.
It is important to take a look at the UN Partition Plan.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Arab%E2%80%93Israeli_conflict (The map is located in the section titled War of 1948.)
This is just my take, but it seems to me that UN plan would have given Jews a less advantageous area than it would have given the Arabs. Yet the Jews accepted the deal and the Arabs started a war in order to, it would seem, get the whole thing.
Second, I have more than once offered my opinion that the Israeli/Palestinian conflict could be solved if the latter would denounce its goal of destroying the state of Israel. The details of that settlement would be thorny and would require very difficult negotiations on both sides. But such accommodations would be worth the effort if a lasting peace could be achieved.
And here is where I have become aware of an article which backs my claim that the Palestinians seek the destruction of Israel. My source is Al Jazeera. The author is Samer Jaber, a political activist and researcher.
Here is a quote from his piece. www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2024/8/18/solidarity-with-palestine-must-be-about-decolonisation-not-just-ceasefire
It is essential for Palestinians and their allies to seize this moment and push for a solution that dismantles colonial structures and establishes a single, democratic state where all citizens, regardless of ethnicity or religion, are equal.
". . . a single, democratic state . . . How is it possible to read that quote without understanding that it assumes the elimination of Israel? Does Jaber suppose that Israel will come to it senses and voluntarily do away with itself? He does not call for military action to do away with Israel, but how else do you think this ". . . single, democratic state . . ." is to be created?
Okay, maybe I am totally off base on this point. Maybe Jaber really does think that Israel will voluntarily cease to exist.
No, I do not believe that, and I doubt that you do either. Conclusion: the Palestinians are going to have to give up their goal of eliminating Israel or this conflict will go on for another 100 years.
And that really is the last I have to say on this topic.
Really.
AzWm
Some of us can see the forest and the trees.
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Post by johneaztec on Aug 21, 2024 14:48:08 GMT -8
Hate to go back on something I said, but I do have one or two more points to discuss.
First, I find it puzzling that I appear to be about the only AztecMesa member who does not believe that Israel is a contemptible purveyor of hatred and genocide. Yes, there are two sides to this conflict. But let's go back to 1948. The UN Partition Plan offered territory to each side. The Jews accepted the plan while the Arabs rejected it. The Arabs not only rejected the plan but started the first Arab/Israeli war.
It is important to take a look at the UN Partition Plan.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Arab%E2%80%93Israeli_conflict (The map is located in the section titled War of 1948.)
This is just my take, but it seems to me that UN plan would have given Jews a less advantageous area than it would have given the Arabs. Yet the Jews accepted the deal and the Arabs started a war in order to, it would seem, get the whole thing.
Second, I have more than once offered my opinion that the Israeli/Palestinian conflict could be solved if the latter would denounce its goal of destroying the state of Israel. The details of that settlement would be thorny and would require very difficult negotiations on both sides. But such accommodations would be worth the effort if a lasting peace could be achieved.
And here is where I have become aware of an article which backs my claim that the Palestinians seek the destruction of Israel. My source is Al Jazeera. The author is Samer Jaber, a political activist and researcher.
Here is a quote from his piece. www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2024/8/18/solidarity-with-palestine-must-be-about-decolonisation-not-just-ceasefire
It is essential for Palestinians and their allies to seize this moment and push for a solution that dismantles colonial structures and establishes a single, democratic state where all citizens, regardless of ethnicity or religion, are equal.
". . . a single, democratic state . . . How is it possible to read that quote without understanding that it assumes the elimination of Israel? Does Jaber suppose that Israel will come to it senses and voluntarily do away with itself? He does not call for military action to do away with Israel, but how else do you think this ". . . single, democratic state . . ." is to be created?
Okay, maybe I am totally off base on this point. Maybe Jaber really does think that Israel will voluntarily cease to exist.
No, I do not believe that, and I doubt that you do either. Conclusion: the Palestinians are going to have to give up their goal of eliminating Israel or this conflict will go on for another 100 years.
And that really is the last I have to say on this topic.
Really.
AzWm
I completely agree with just about everything you said in your post. I'll add that I do feel that the Israelis have some culpability in needless casualties of innocent Palestinians. War sucks.
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Post by The Aztec Panther on Aug 21, 2024 15:10:09 GMT -8
The bottom line is Hamas committed a massive war crime on October 7th last year.
Israel followed that up with a series of war crimes of their own when they targeted civilian facilities and buildings. Yes, Hamas is smart in that they put their various headquarters in civilian locations, and as heinous as that is it does put a burden on anyone going after them to be as surgical as possible when striking at those headquarters. If it had been me I would have used special forces to target those Hamas facilities and minimize civilian casualties. Netanyahu decided against that. He decided to punish the people in Gaza for either supporting Hamas or being too afraid of Hamas to kick them out.
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Post by aztecryan on Aug 21, 2024 15:21:52 GMT -8
The bottom line is Hamas committed a massive war crime on October 7th last year. Israel followed that up with a series of war crimes of their own when they targeted civilian facilities and buildings. Yes, Hamas is smart in that they put their various headquarters in civilian locations, and as heinous as that is it does put a burden on anyone going after them to be as surgical as possible when striking at those headquarters. If it had been me I would have used special forces to target those Hamas facilities and minimize civilian casualties. Netanyahu decided against that. He decided to punish the people in Gaza for either supporting Hamas or being too afraid of Hamas to kick them out. His policies and funding of Hamas lead to an endless war.
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Post by sdsuball on Aug 22, 2024 9:27:12 GMT -8
The bottom line is Hamas committed a massive war crime on October 7th last year. Israel followed that up with a series of war crimes of their own when they targeted civilian facilities and buildings. Yes, Hamas is smart in that they put their various headquarters in civilian locations, and as heinous as that is it does put a burden on anyone going after them to be as surgical as possible when striking at those headquarters. If it had been me I would have used special forces to target those Hamas facilities and minimize civilian casualties. Netanyahu decided against that. He decided to punish the people in Gaza for either supporting Hamas or being too afraid of Hamas to kick them out. I think this is a really balanced take. I would also add that not only has Israel gone after Hamas targets in civilian locations, they have also gone after non-Hamas targets under the guise of being a Hamas target. Which is much more sinister.
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Post by sdsuball on Aug 22, 2024 14:42:33 GMT -8
Hate to go back on something I said, but I do have one or two more points to discuss.
First, I find it puzzling that I appear to be about the only AztecMesa member who does not believe that Israel is a contemptible purveyor of hatred and genocide. Yes, there are two sides to this conflict. But let's go back to 1948. The UN Partition Plan offered territory to each side. The Jews accepted the plan while the Arabs rejected it. The Arabs not only rejected the plan but started the first Arab/Israeli war.
It is important to take a look at the UN Partition Plan.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Arab%E2%80%93Israeli_conflict (The map is located in the section titled War of 1948.)
This is just my take, but it seems to me that UN plan would have given Jews a less advantageous area than it would have given the Arabs. Yet the Jews accepted the deal and the Arabs started a war in order to, it would seem, get the whole thing.
Second, I have more than once offered my opinion that the Israeli/Palestinian conflict could be solved if the latter would denounce its goal of destroying the state of Israel. The details of that settlement would be thorny and would require very difficult negotiations on both sides. But such accommodations would be worth the effort if a lasting peace could be achieved.
And here is where I have become aware of an article which backs my claim that the Palestinians seek the destruction of Israel. My source is Al Jazeera. The author is Samer Jaber, a political activist and researcher.
Here is a quote from his piece. www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2024/8/18/solidarity-with-palestine-must-be-about-decolonisation-not-just-ceasefire
It is essential for Palestinians and their allies to seize this moment and push for a solution that dismantles colonial structures and establishes a single, democratic state where all citizens, regardless of ethnicity or religion, are equal.
". . . a single, democratic state . . . How is it possible to read that quote without understanding that it assumes the elimination of Israel? Does Jaber suppose that Israel will come to it senses and voluntarily do away with itself? He does not call for military action to do away with Israel, but how else do you think this ". . . single, democratic state . . ." is to be created?
Okay, maybe I am totally off base on this point. Maybe Jaber really does think that Israel will voluntarily cease to exist.
No, I do not believe that, and I doubt that you do either. Conclusion: the Palestinians are going to have to give up their goal of eliminating Israel or this conflict will go on for another 100 years.
And that really is the last I have to say on this topic.
Really.
AzWm
Bisan Owda has been nominated for an Emmy, and has won a Peabody Award and Edward R. Murrow Award for her work in journalism covering the conflict. Consider opening your eyes to the world that Palestinians are living in and watch this video. The indiscriminate carpet bombing is not going after military targets, it is killing civilians and orphaning children, and it has left them with nowhere to live. It’s Bisan From Gaza: Skin Infections Rise As Heat Inside Tents Soars youtu.be/7DWa-V-1FSk?si=CNxU2VqZzjsFHs7b
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Post by sdsuball on Aug 22, 2024 14:46:05 GMT -8
Hate to go back on something I said, but I do have one or two more points to discuss.
First, I find it puzzling that I appear to be about the only AztecMesa member who does not believe that Israel is a contemptible purveyor of hatred and genocide. Yes, there are two sides to this conflict. But let's go back to 1948. The UN Partition Plan offered territory to each side. The Jews accepted the plan while the Arabs rejected it. The Arabs not only rejected the plan but started the first Arab/Israeli war.
It is important to take a look at the UN Partition Plan.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Arab%E2%80%93Israeli_conflict (The map is located in the section titled War of 1948.)
This is just my take, but it seems to me that UN plan would have given Jews a less advantageous area than it would have given the Arabs. Yet the Jews accepted the deal and the Arabs started a war in order to, it would seem, get the whole thing.
Second, I have more than once offered my opinion that the Israeli/Palestinian conflict could be solved if the latter would denounce its goal of destroying the state of Israel. The details of that settlement would be thorny and would require very difficult negotiations on both sides. But such accommodations would be worth the effort if a lasting peace could be achieved.
And here is where I have become aware of an article which backs my claim that the Palestinians seek the destruction of Israel. My source is Al Jazeera. The author is Samer Jaber, a political activist and researcher.
Here is a quote from his piece. www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2024/8/18/solidarity-with-palestine-must-be-about-decolonisation-not-just-ceasefire
It is essential for Palestinians and their allies to seize this moment and push for a solution that dismantles colonial structures and establishes a single, democratic state where all citizens, regardless of ethnicity or religion, are equal.
". . . a single, democratic state . . . How is it possible to read that quote without understanding that it assumes the elimination of Israel? Does Jaber suppose that Israel will come to it senses and voluntarily do away with itself? He does not call for military action to do away with Israel, but how else do you think this ". . . single, democratic state . . ." is to be created?
Okay, maybe I am totally off base on this point. Maybe Jaber really does think that Israel will voluntarily cease to exist.
No, I do not believe that, and I doubt that you do either. Conclusion: the Palestinians are going to have to give up their goal of eliminating Israel or this conflict will go on for another 100 years.
And that really is the last I have to say on this topic.
Really.
AzWm
I completely agree with just about everything you said in your post. I'll add that I do feel that the Israelis some culpability in needless casualties of innocent Palestinians. War sucks. More then some culpability. Alot of the actions that the Israeli military is taking are not military actions. Bombing hospitals, 'safe zones' for refugees who's homes and apartments have been leveled, destroying Gaza's water supplies and power plants, blockading the entry of medical aid and food. These are all war crimes that Israel will have to answer to, that will be written about in history books in the same context as the Rwandan genocide and the Nazi genocide.
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Post by uwphoto on Aug 22, 2024 16:21:11 GMT -8
I completely agree with just about everything you said in your post. I'll add that I do feel that the Israelis some culpability in needless casualties of innocent Palestinians. War sucks. More then some culpability. Alot of the actions that the Israeli military is taking are not military actions. Bombing hospitals, 'safe zones' for refugees who's homes and apartments have been leveled, destroying Gaza's water supplies and power plants, blockading the entry of medical aid and food. These are all war crimes that Israel will have to answer to, that will be written about in history books in the same context as the Rwandan genocide and the Nazi genocide. SDSUBALL, this is a serious question. In the history of man, which war was the nicest war? War always involves war crimes. Ever heard of Leutenent Calley? How bout the bombing of Dresden? Societies avoid war for a lot of reasons. I'm not happy with civilian deaths..but why did Hamas kill a bunch of young concert goers and torture and kill hostages? I have worked with, and am friends with, Israeli citizens and I like them. You and Mr. Nasty would last about 2 days with Hamas before you'd be calling for your Mama.
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Post by aztecryan on Aug 22, 2024 16:47:52 GMT -8
More then some culpability. Alot of the actions that the Israeli military is taking are not military actions. Bombing hospitals, 'safe zones' for refugees who's homes and apartments have been leveled, destroying Gaza's water supplies and power plants, blockading the entry of medical aid and food. These are all war crimes that Israel will have to answer to, that will be written about in history books in the same context as the Rwandan genocide and the Nazi genocide. SDSUBALL, this is a serious question. In the history of man, which war was the nicest war? War always involves war crimes. Ever heard of Leutenent Calley? How bout the bombing of Dresden? Societies avoid war for a lot of reasons. I'm not happy with civilian deaths..but why did Hamas kill a bunch of young concert goers and torture and kill hostages? I have worked with, and am friends with, Israeli citizens and I like them. You and Mr. Nasty would last about 2 days with Hamas before you'd be calling for your Mama. You're doing it again.
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Post by uwphoto on Aug 22, 2024 17:00:05 GMT -8
SDSUBALL, this is a serious question. In the history of man, which war was the nicest war? War always involves war crimes. Ever heard of Leutenent Calley? How bout the bombing of Dresden? Societies avoid war for a lot of reasons. I'm not happy with civilian deaths..but why did Hamas kill a bunch of young concert goers and torture and kill hostages? I have worked with, and am friends with, Israeli citizens and I like them. You and Mr. Nasty would last about 2 days with Hamas before you'd be calling for your Mama. You're doing it again. Ryan, why don't you explain to me exactly what "I'm doing"?
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Post by aztecryan on Aug 22, 2024 17:10:45 GMT -8
Ryan, why don't you explain to me exactly what "I'm doing"? "You wouldn't last two minutes with Hamas." Really? What's the point? Someone is allowed to criticize Israel (who, again, has funded Hamas for a long, long time) without being labeled an apologist for terrorism. That's what you're doing here. Whether you know Israeli citizens or not means nothing - The people aren't the issue, the power structure is. The never-ending conflict is. War crimes are war crimes, no matter who they are perpetrated by. Neither side is "just" in their actions.
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Post by uwphoto on Aug 22, 2024 18:05:30 GMT -8
Ryan, why don't you explain to me exactly what "I'm doing"? "You wouldn't last two minutes with Hamas." Really? What's the point? Someone is allowed to criticize Israel (who, again, has funded Hamas for a long, long time) without being labeled an apologist for terrorism. That's what you're doing here. Whether you know Israeli citizens or not means nothing - The people aren't the issue, the power structure is. The never-ending conflict is. War crimes are war crimes, no matter who they are perpetrated by. Neither side is "just" in their actions. Common man..your last few sentences. "The people aren't the issue, the power structure is" "The never-ending conflict is". Do you talk down yo your audience on purpose?
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