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Post by aztecryan on Jul 4, 2022 12:10:37 GMT -8
The problem is you're okay with those assumptions, because you put the onus on their safety and not their recklessness firing dozens of shots at someone. I did not state whether they provided aid (I asked if they did, for the record) because the press conference didn't highlight that with any real emphasis that I personally saw. As for the rest of it, like I've said before, you can use whatever narrative you want to justify egregious police overreach. Firing 60+ shots at any one target is excessive and unnecessary. The cruelty of the act is the problem. The double standard of racial bias is the second problem. I agree 60 shots is excessive, and if that's what they're trained to do then they should be re-trained. You also have to consider the amount of adrenaline flowing through them at the time. You and I have no idea. Adrenaline. Now there's a new one. |
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Post by sdsuball on Jul 4, 2022 12:12:16 GMT -8
Very interesting. Of course, a police officer is going to have the adrenaline going, and he's going to have the thought process that it's him or me if he doesn't surrender, and he makes a false move, especially after being shot at first. You have to assume he has a gun if he's already fired on you, so it becomes a reflex if there's a false move. Him, or me. So you're saying is cops should have looser rules of engagement than our military inside a combat zone? 1. If you are arguing that our police officers are worse trained then our military forces, I 100% agree. Our military forces are some of the best (if not the best) trained units in the world. 2. In a combat zone, if a person in a car fired at a tank, don't you think the tank would just light them up? They would have been dead immediately. |
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Post by aztecryan on Jul 4, 2022 12:15:18 GMT -8
Again, not nuance. Basic data and research. Things we can actually connect - Whereas poverty has inconsistent links with higher crime rates and is not universally to blame for the circumstances above. You're speaking in hypothetical possibilities that aren't quantified in research - Anything is possible? But we KNOW that police departments have been guilty of abuses, have overstepped their already considerable power and have acted in a racially biased manner. What are you talking about? The link between poverty and crime has been well documented statistically. I studied datasets that documented it in my statistics courses that I took in undergrad. It's not hypothetical. I'm glad you studied it, but it's not a universal truth. I would call it a credible link, but by no means it is an ironclad reality. |
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Post by sdsuball on Jul 4, 2022 12:31:06 GMT -8
What are you talking about? The link between poverty and crime has been well documented statistically. I studied datasets that documented it in my statistics courses that I took in undergrad. It's not hypothetical. I'm glad you studied it, but it's not a universal truth. I would call it a credible link, but by no means it is an ironclad reality. Yeah I agree with that caveat. What I would also say is that: 1. If you look at the same racial group at different levels of income, lower income correlates to higher crime rates. 2. The article that you linked to talks about violent crime. 3. Poverty crimes (petty theft, selling loose cigarettes, selling drugs) have a strong link to income levels within racial groups. 4. Different minorities have different cultures and different outlooks on the world. This also leads to differences in crime rates by ethnicity. 5. Asian people culturally emphasize hard work and school very strongly. Culturally, Asian people tend to live in societies with a very high respect for authority and rule following. Conversely, African-American people have a different cultural ethos then African people who are not the descendants of slaves. If I was the descendent of slaves, and was repeatedly discriminated against (just as their parents and grandparents were), I would likely exist in the world with a lot more anger and frustration. People follow rules when they view them as fair and just. If you are a poor Black person, who's parents are poor, and you've been discriminated against your entire life, well then maybe you don't really care about stealing from a store in order to make ends meet. After all the system is broken in the first place and rigged against you. |
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Post by johneaztec on Jul 4, 2022 13:03:18 GMT -8
Yeah I agree with that caveat. What I would also say is that: 1. If you look at the same racial group at different levels of income, lower income correlates to higher crime rates. 2. The article that you linked to talks about violent crime. 3. Poverty crimes (petty theft, selling loose cigarettes, selling drugs) have a strong link to income levels within racial groups. 4. Different minorities have different cultures and different outlooks on the world. This also leads to differences in crime rates by ethnicity. 5. Asian people culturally emphasize hard work and school very strongly. Culturally, Asian people tend to live in societies with a very high respect for authority and rule following. Conversely, African-American people have a different cultural ethos then African people who are not the descendants of slaves. If I was the descendent of slaves, and was repeatedly discriminated against (just as their parents and grandparents were), I would likely exist in the world with a lot more anger and frustration. People follow rules when they view them as fair and just. If you are a poor Black person, who's parents are poor, and you've been discriminated against your entire life, well then maybe you don't really care about stealing from a store in order to make ends meet. After all the system is broken in the first place and rigged against you.Very good analysis. |
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Post by aztecryan on Jul 4, 2022 13:56:43 GMT -8
Yeah I agree with that caveat. What I would also say is that: 1. If you look at the same racial group at different levels of income, lower income correlates to higher crime rates. 2. The article that you linked to talks about violent crime. 3. Poverty crimes (petty theft, selling loose cigarettes, selling drugs) have a strong link to income levels within racial groups. 4. Different minorities have different cultures and different outlooks on the world. This also leads to differences in crime rates by ethnicity. 5. Asian people culturally emphasize hard work and school very strongly. Culturally, Asian people tend to live in societies with a very high respect for authority and rule following. Conversely, African-American people have a different cultural ethos then African people who are not the descendants of slaves. If I was the descendent of slaves, and was repeatedly discriminated against (just as their parents and grandparents were), I would likely exist in the world with a lot more anger and frustration. People follow rules when they view them as fair and just. If you are a poor Black person, who's parents are poor, and you've been discriminated against your entire life, well then maybe you don't really care about stealing from a store in order to make ends meet. After all the system is broken in the first place and rigged against you.Very rational take. Yeah, I think there's definitely layers to it that require some analysis beyond rudimentary conclusions. |
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Post by sdsustoner on Jul 5, 2022 3:05:58 GMT -8
Yeah I agree with that caveat. What I would also say is that: 1. If you look at the same racial group at different levels of income, lower income correlates to higher crime rates. 2. The article that you linked to talks about violent crime. 3. Poverty crimes (petty theft, selling loose cigarettes, selling drugs) have a strong link to income levels within racial groups. 4. Different minorities have different cultures and different outlooks on the world. This also leads to differences in crime rates by ethnicity. 5. Asian people culturally emphasize hard work and school very strongly. Culturally, Asian people tend to live in societies with a very high respect for authority and rule following. Conversely, African-American people have a different cultural ethos then African people who are not the descendants of slaves. If I was the descendent of slaves, and was repeatedly discriminated against (just as their parents and grandparents were), I would likely exist in the world with a lot more anger and frustration. People follow rules when they view them as fair and just. If you are a poor Black person, who's parents are poor, and you've been discriminated against your entire life, well then maybe you don't really care about stealing from a store in order to make ends meet. After all the system is broken in the first place and rigged against you.😂 🤣 @ 5. Only with the stereotype Asians...not Southeast. The IT folks, doctors and engineers...etc from pop culture stereotypes. Ya see that last description after your Asian stereotype based on media? That's what they lived. The first gen of SE Asian street gangs formed in the 80s. They were the small children you see in history books escaping Pol Pot. So you had an entire generation of kids who survived that trauma who ended up only speaking English living in rough urban areas like East Long Beach with their parents who spoke zero English. Can ya guess who raised this entire lost generation? Today, their children are the current generation of street gangs. Asians aren't some homogeneous group. Don't stereotype us even when those stereotypes make us the "model minority" which BTW is some BS white supremacist garbage...the model minority 😂...just think of us like you think of your own. You got poor Whites, rich Whites and middle class Whites who only have their skin tone in common. Hell, even their diets vary. So why would anything else be the same? Now apply that to all minorities. Also...just eliminate the Black part of poor & Black...poor people who are desperate will resort to desperate measures regardless of their ethnicity. Or are you claiming desperate White people won't steal? They steal things like land & natural resources just because they can. See? I can play this game too |
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Post by sdsustoner on Jul 5, 2022 3:32:44 GMT -8
Yeah I agree with that caveat. What I would also say is that: 1. If you look at the same racial group at different levels of income, lower income correlates to higher crime rates. 2. The article that you linked to talks about violent crime. 3. Poverty crimes (petty theft, selling loose cigarettes, selling drugs) have a strong link to income levels within racial groups. 4. Different minorities have different cultures and different outlooks on the world. This also leads to differences in crime rates by ethnicity. 5. Asian people culturally emphasize hard work and school very strongly. Culturally, Asian people tend to live in societies with a very high respect for authority and rule following. Conversely, African-American people have a different cultural ethos then African people who are not the descendants of slaves. If I was the descendent of slaves, and was repeatedly discriminated against (just as their parents and grandparents were), I would likely exist in the world with a lot more anger and frustration. People follow rules when they view them as fair and just. If you are a poor Black person, who's parents are poor, and you've been discriminated against your entire life, well then maybe you don't really care about stealing from a store in order to make ends meet. After all the system is broken in the first place and rigged against you.Very good analysis. Only if you're a casual racist trying not to appear like one. Way to appear to have a heart attaching a negative stereotype exclusively to poor Black people |
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Post by sdsustoner on Jul 5, 2022 3:38:04 GMT -8
Variable mixture of both. Poor training killed Alfred Olango, for example. I know, I was 50 feet away when it happened. PERT was unavailable and on another call, so officers attempted to deescalate a situation and ended up killing Olango. It's funny how you are now making a nuanced point as an explanation for what the issue is with police officers (poor training vs. racism), yet my nuanced point (for why black people come into contact with law enforcement more often) was dismissed by you. It IS POSSIBLE that black people who are poor, come into contact with police officers more then black people who are wealthy. It IS POSSIBLE that the police officers were poorly trained, or that police training needs to be changed (more then possible - it should be changed). It IS POSSIBLE that police officers have unconscious biases against black people. I remember reading an article about a research study that proved that most people are unconsciously biased (unknowingly biased) against black people. That still doesn't make them murderers, it just makes them human beings who react on a subconscious level to stimuli like other animals do in a high adrenaline, life or death situation (any time that an officer is fired at, that's the mindset that they are going to be in). It makes them murderers as soon as they kill They're merely cowards perfectly fit for the job of American police though the moments before during and especially after they pull the trigger..."mY LiFe wAs eNdAnGeREd" is their Get Out of Jail card |
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Post by sdsustoner on Jul 5, 2022 3:41:37 GMT -8
😂 Thanks for admitting to be racist John too for liking that. nUaNcE = Not agreeing with your BS cop sucking Study statistics on socioeconomic inequality, poverty and crime rates by race and get back to me. Oh and that's really convenient to call someone racist who doesn't agree with you. I don't see rich Black people commiting crimes at the higher rate of poor Whites. So it's either White people commit more crimes according to your style of analysis or being poor is the factor to someone who isn't racist. Also, you're not the victim...quit painting yourself as one. You've said some clearly racist trash here and now claim a mere disagreement is why I called ya a racist. Nope, you saying racist trash makes ya a racist |
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Post by sdsustoner on Jul 5, 2022 3:50:16 GMT -8
So you're saying is cops should have looser rules of engagement than our military inside a combat zone? 1. If you are arguing that our police officers are worse trained then our military forces, I 100% agree. Our military forces are some of the best (if not the best) trained units in the world. 2. In a combat zone, if a person in a car fired at a tank, don't you think the tank would just light them up? They would have been dead immediately. If said car was trying to surrender when the tank lit it up? That's a freaking war crime |
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Post by johneaztec on Jul 5, 2022 6:35:57 GMT -8
Only if you're a casual racist trying not to appear like one. Way to appear to have a heart attaching a negative stereotype exclusively to poor Black people But, but Ryan thought it was a rational take as well. Please lump him in with all of the rest of us casual racists, as well. I don't want him to feel excluded, because THAT might be casually racist. Lol. |
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Post by aztecryan on Jul 5, 2022 12:38:34 GMT -8
Only if you're a casual racist trying not to appear like one. Way to appear to have a heart attaching a negative stereotype exclusively to poor Black people But, but Ryan thought it was a rational take as well. Please lump him in with all of the rest of us casual racists, as well. I don't want him to feel excluded, because THAT might be casually racist. Lol. Please don't speak for me. What I agree with is the rationale that poverty and crime can be linked in certain circumstances and that the issue is complex enough that it doesn't belie a token narrative to deal with it. |
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Post by johneaztec on Jul 5, 2022 14:40:30 GMT -8
But, but Ryan thought it was a rational take as well. Please lump him in with all of the rest of us casual racists, as well. I don't want him to feel excluded, because THAT might be casually racist. Lol. Please don't speak for me. What I agree with is the rationale that poverty and crime can be linked in certain circumstances and that the issue is complex enough that it doesn't belie a token narrative to deal with it. I'm not speaking for you. You literally said it was a "VERY rational take." Not rational like I first stated, but "VERY rational." You clarified what you meant, and I only quoted that one sentence that had a period after it. |
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Post by sdsuball on Jul 5, 2022 18:06:03 GMT -8
Study statistics on socioeconomic inequality, poverty and crime rates by race and get back to me. Oh and that's really convenient to call someone racist who doesn't agree with you. I don't see rich Black people commiting crimes at the higher rate of poor Whites. So it's either White people commit more crimes according to your style of analysis or being poor is the factor to someone who isn't racist. Also, you're not the victim...quit painting yourself as one. You've said some clearly racist trash here and now claim a mere disagreement is why I called ya a racist. Nope, you saying racist trash makes ya a racist I said that racial biases as well as poverty play a role in interactions between black people and police officers. Show me your statistics on rich black people being arrested more then poor white people. Back your claim up. The link between poverty and crime has been (extensively) documented in academic literature, particularly for what are so-called poverty crimes (theft, selling drugs, scams, illegal sale of loose cigarettes/moonshine are all examples). You can stop painting yourself as some righteous civil rights crusader on a mission to trash anyone who dares to question your analysis, that any police + black person shooting is racist and murder. Get over yourself. If the bullet that he shot at police had connected with one of the officers, would it still be racist when they shot him? Would they still be murderers? How about instead of trashing people on the internet as racist, why don't you dig into the 60 bullets shot from the 8 police officers in the foot chase. That is obviously incredibly excessive, and it's a training issue. After all, all eight of them shot at him. They all must have shot at him because they thought he was about to shoot them. It's a lot easier to label me as racist instead of dig into the actual problem here, and I guarantee that John and I are not the problem in America. So don't label us as racists. It's worse then inappropriate, it's divisive, and it divides people who have the same goals in mind (eliminating racism and violence from this country - civilian violence AND police violence).To call those eight cops murders (at least in the traditional sense of the use of the word) is extreme and doesn't recognize the dangers that is police pursuits where civilian shots have been fired. Again, when this post was created, we didn't have access to the video of what happened - just the news articles and reports. What initially stood out to me in that report was that he shot at officers in a police chase before police officers shot and killed him. Now that is not racist in the slightest on the police officers part.After watching the video on YouTube, one or two of the officers shot him while we was lying on the ground for 3-4 seconds. That could be considered extreme indifference to human life (manslaughter). Shots happened from 6:00 to 6:07 in the video that I (just) watched. That is clearly excessive. |
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Post by johneaztec on Jul 5, 2022 20:49:09 GMT -8
I don't see rich Black people commiting crimes at the higher rate of poor Whites. So it's either White people commit more crimes according to your style of analysis or being poor is the factor to someone who isn't racist. Also, you're not the victim...quit painting yourself as one. You've said some clearly racist trash here and now claim a mere disagreement is why I called ya a racist. Nope, you saying racist trash makes ya a racist I said that racial biases as well as poverty play a role in interactions between black people and police officers. Show me your statistics on rich black people being arrested more then poor white people. Back your claim up. The link between poverty and crime has been (extensively) documented in academic literature, particularly for what are so-called poverty crimes (theft, selling drugs, scams, illegal sale of loose cigarettes/moonshine are all examples). You can stop painting yourself as some righteous civil rights crusader on a mission to trash anyone who dares to question your analysis, that any police + black person shooting is racist and murder. Get over yourself. If the bullet that he shot at police had connected with one of the officers, would it still be racist when they shot him? Would they still be murderers? How about instead of trashing people on the internet as racist, why don't you dig into the 60 bullets shot from the 8 police officers in the foot chase. That is obviously incredibly excessive, and it's a training issue. After all, all eight of them shot at him. They all must have shot at him because they thought he was about to shoot them. It's a lot easier to label me as racist instead of dig into the actual problem here, and I guarantee that John and I are not the problem in America. So don't label us as racists. It's worse then inappropriate, it's divisive, and it divides people who have the same goals in mind (eliminating racism and violence from this country - civilian violence AND police violence).To call those eight cops murders (at least in the traditional sense of the use of the word) is extreme and doesn't recognize the dangers that is police pursuits where civilian shots have been fired. Again, when this post was created, we didn't have access to the video of what happened - just the news articles and reports. What initially stood out to me in that report was that he shot at officers in a police chase before police officers shot and killed him. Now that is not racist in the slightest on the police officers part.After watching the video on YouTube, one or two of the officers shot him while we was lying on the ground for 3-4 seconds. That could be considered extreme indifference to human life (manslaughter). Shots happened from 6:00 to 6:07 in the video that I (just) watched. That is clearly excessive. Wow, you articulated this WAY better than I could have, in any setting. Thanks. I've said all along that if anything it seems to be a training issue, as you said they all shot at the same time so they all saw the threat at the same time. Also, like you said, it is much easier for some people to simply throw out the race card, and stick to that as the main reason for these instances, because if they really look at it, it might, oh no, change their minds. Also, they want to be the best SJW's they can possibly be, no matter the facts. Yep, the worst ones are the ones that loosely throw around the race card if someone disagrees with them. How pathetic. |
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Post by azteccc on Jul 5, 2022 21:28:34 GMT -8
From seeing your back and forth in this thread, it appears that you tend to give LEOs the benefit of the doubt. That means you need to read more. Not in all situations. I just happen to not jump to the conclusion that they're all bad, or they're all racist as soon as a scenario like this tragic shooting happens. I like to go case by case. Just because someone is abusive, or cheats on their wife, doesn't mean they're a racist, or murderer. It bothers when some people jump to the conclusion that the cops must be racist if they shoot a black person. It's not that cut and dry. I'll just say this and leave it there because I'm not following along in the thread and it isn't my argument... If you're unwilling to learn about the history of corrupt departments, the gangification of departments across the country, the lies those in charge tell the media/public/officials, and just plain old stats about the shocking percentage of LEOs who beat their significant others... It sounds insincere when you say you're the one that looks at nuance and that other people that have a different viewpoint and are more well read on the subject than you are those jumping to conclusions. Using evidence that you refuse to engage with to develop an opinion does not mean others are 'jumping to conclusions', it may just mean that they have more data and evidence than you do that more well-informs the calculus. I get the impression that you, like many many many in this country, want LEOs to be the good guys and believe in a form of that particular system that we were all indocrinated with from a young age - one that lionizes, reveres, and respects the institution and pushes a narrative that those with badges are overwhelmingly good and do good, and that bad situations are usually the fault of the victim or 'bad apple' LEOs. The more you are able to ingest that might challenge your viewpoint and challenge your indoctrination, the more the frame in which you view these incidents (you know, the multiple killings referenced just in this thread) may expand and become more logos/ethos than pathos. |
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Post by 84aztec96 on Jul 6, 2022 8:29:21 GMT -8
I'll just throw this out there too:
The media has to stop lying. It is sicking. I just heard this on the radio. "Jayland Walker was shot 60 times while running from the police after a traffic stop."
If we can't tell the truth, nothing is going to be fixed.
And another thing. Stop using stats that just compare one group to another without removing the other variables that would factor into the differences. Those stats are worthless and misleading.
Too frustrating.
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Post by aztecryan on Jul 6, 2022 9:58:38 GMT -8
I'll just throw this out there too: The media has to stop lying. It is sicking. I just heard this on the radio. "Jayland Walker was shot 60 times while running from the police after a traffic stop." If we can't tell the truth, nothing is going to be fixed. And another thing. Stop using stats that just compare one group to another without removing the other variables that would factor into the differences. Those stats are worthless and misleading. Too frustrating. But he was running from the police after a traffic stop. The original incident was a traffic violation. And he was shot 60+ times. Now, if you want to choose to expand on the story with things that do not justify the use of extreme excessive force, go for it. Once again, this is a symptom of a much larger disease. What other variables are you referring to? |
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Post by 84aztec96 on Jul 6, 2022 10:35:31 GMT -8
"expand on the story". It would be funny if it was not so sad. You want to make a difference, be accurate and truthful. If you can't see the problem with the news story example I gave, you are part of the problem, and are just making matters worse.
And you should be able to tell me what variables should be controlled for.
If you don't understand "what variables" factor into differences when comparing ANY two groups, you shouldn't be sighting any statistics.
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