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Post by aztecwin on Jul 3, 2010 8:33:59 GMT -8
I suspect that Craft getting fully vested in the Calicornia State Employees Retirement System has as much to do with it as anything. Long could not carry Crafts water as far as coaching is concerned. Craft had (has) some personal problems if you believe all that you have heard. We will never know for sure, so just let it go away as a couple failed experiments. Your pension angle has merit. I believe it is a defined benefit plan so the benefit really grows with years of service. I was just trying to interject politics!   |
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Post by k5james on Jul 3, 2010 8:56:38 GMT -8
Hmm, tough choice... Giant Douche or Turd Sandwich?  |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 3, 2010 9:19:38 GMT -8
I don't want to get into the Craft vs. Long BS but I've always been curious why Craft wasn't more successful. I've come to the conclusion that Craft had very low self esteem and didn't like moving from his comfort level, which was JC football. Tom Craft was a very successful JC head coach. He was hired as a Div I OC at SDSU and was very successful. He then quit and went back to JC. Why? He was a hot commodity and could have moved as a OC to a bigger program. He was then approached to become our head coach. He turned it down to stay at the JC. We basically begged him to sign on. Reluctantly, he did. He won some games, was competitive in others with a crappy budget and no administration support. He was then fired and went back to a JC. Anyone seeing a pattern? It is too bad because he could have been the next Norm Chow if he wanted to. Bill King of Rivals Radio is of the opinion you never hire anyone to be a head coach at the DIA level whose experience has been exclusively at the JC and/or Division II level since they haven't had to concern themselves about scholarships and APR at either level. That makes sense to me, so the biggest knock I would have about the hire was that Craft had a mere two years during which he had to be concerned about scholarships or APR. Tom became SDSU's football coach as the result of the biggest clusterphuck of a hiring process I've ever heard of conducted by one of the two worst athletic directors ever at a school which has had more than its share of merely bad ones. As to Tollner, I agree with Steve that he was better than either Craft or Chuck. Although that isn't saying much, I actually think Ted did a good job for four years but then lost the fire in his belly needed to put in the horrendous hours necessary to be truly successful as a DIA head coach. |
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Post by aztec70 on Jul 3, 2010 10:49:25 GMT -8
Your pension angle has merit. I believe it is a defined benefit plan so the benefit really grows with years of service. I was just trying to interject politics! Oh, sorry.  |
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Post by aztec70 on Jul 3, 2010 10:49:56 GMT -8
Why Chuck Long has a job and Tom Craft doesn't is pretty obvious to me. Chuck Long has much better credentials and has been a OC at one of the most powerful and successfull football schools in college history. That is why he got the Kansas job. I'm not sure why Tom Craft isn't a OC at D1 level yet. I think more by choice than anything. Craft does have a job. Head coach at Riverside CC. |
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Post by AztecWilliam on Jul 3, 2010 15:51:42 GMT -8
I don't want to get into the Craft vs. Long BS but I've always been curious why Craft wasn't more successful. I've come to the conclusion that Craft had very low self esteem and didn't like moving from his comfort level, which was JC football. Tom Craft was a very successful JC head coach. He was hired as a Div I OC at SDSU and was very successful. He then quit and went back to JC. Why? He was a hot commodity and could have moved as a OC to a bigger program. He was then approached to become our head coach. He turned it down to stay at the JC. We basically begged him to sign on. Reluctantly, he did. He won some games, was competitive in others with a crappy budget and no administration support. He was then fired and went back to a JC. Anyone seeing a pattern? It is too bad because he could have been the next Norm Chow if he wanted to. Bill King of Rivals Radio is of the opinion you never hire anyone to be a head coach at the DIA level whose experience has been exclusively at the JC and/or Division II level since they haven't had to concern themselves about scholarships and APR at either level. That makes sense to me, so the biggest knock I would have about the hire was that Craft had a mere two years during which he had to be concerned about scholarships or APR. Tom became SDSU's football coach as the result of the biggest clusterphuck of a hiring process I've ever heard of conducted by one of the two worst athletic directors ever at a school which has had more than its share of merely bad ones. As to Tollner, I agree with Steve that he was better than either Craft or Chuck. Although that isn't saying much, I actually think Ted did a good job for four years but then lost the fire in his belly needed to put in the horrendous hours necessary to be truly successful as a DIA head coach. Minor quibble here. First, Division II indeed involves scholarships. 35 per team, as I recall. Second, are you sure that APR does not apply to DII? AzWm |
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Post by monty on Jul 3, 2010 16:08:12 GMT -8
Bill King of Rivals Radio is of the opinion you never hire anyone to be a head coach at the DIA level whose experience has been exclusively at the JC and/or Division II level since they haven't had to concern themselves about scholarships and APR at either level. That makes sense to me, so the biggest knock I would have about the hire was that Craft had a mere two years during which he had to be concerned about scholarships or APR. Tom became SDSU's football coach as the result of the biggest clusterphuck of a hiring process I've ever heard of conducted by one of the two worst athletic directors ever at a school which has had more than its share of merely bad ones. As to Tollner, I agree with Steve that he was better than either Craft or Chuck. Although that isn't saying much, I actually think Ted did a good job for four years but then lost the fire in his belly needed to put in the horrendous hours necessary to be truly successful as a DIA head coach. Minor quibble here. First, Division II indeed involves scholarships. 35 per team, as I recall. Second, are you sure that APR does not apply to DII? AzWm I looked it up as I had no idea, 36 www.educationplanner.org/education_planner/paying_article.asp?sponsor=2859&articleName=NCAA_Scholarship_LimitsAnd a cursory search shows no direct evidence it is counted for DII, and anecdotal that it doesn't (for instance this UW report www.uwsa.edu/audit/coachcontracts.pdf is for their system of DI and II and explicitly mentions it as DI for APR, the NCAA sight also clearly states DI data, so I would guess it doesn't) |
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Post by Bob Forsythe on Jul 3, 2010 16:12:55 GMT -8
Your pension angle has merit. I believe it is a defined benefit plan so the benefit really grows with years of service. I was just trying to interject politics! Just havin' some fun with you  . =Bob |
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Post by Bob Forsythe on Jul 3, 2010 16:25:54 GMT -8
Bill King of Rivals Radio is of the opinion you never hire anyone to be a head coach at the DIA level whose experience has been exclusively at the JC and/or Division II level since they haven't had to concern themselves about scholarships and APR at either level. That makes sense to me, so the biggest knock I would have about the hire was that Craft had a mere two years during which he had to be concerned about scholarships or APR. Tom became SDSU's football coach as the result of the biggest clusterphuck of a hiring process I've ever heard of conducted by one of the two worst athletic directors ever at a school which has had more than its share of merely bad ones. As to Tollner, I agree with Steve that he was better than either Craft or Chuck. Although that isn't saying much, I actually think Ted did a good job for four years but then lost the fire in his belly needed to put in the horrendous hours necessary to be truly successful as a DIA head coach. On your first point, I'd agree but would add that JC coaches also don't have to worry about admissions since JCs will pretty much take anyone - Hell, City College took me despite having graduated 625 in a class of 675. It's been said that Craft brought a JC mindset with him, and I think the number of JC players who never made it into school is proof of that. As to your second point, from what I was told at the time by someone who had access to friends of Tedford, it was, in fact, a total cluster-f@#k. What I was told was that Bay kept calling Tedford, trying to convince him to take the job but Tedford didn't like the economics and kept refusing. Faced with Tedford's final refusal, Bay went to Plan B and hired Craft, which was ridiculous because he probably could have hired a successful D1-AA coach instead. =Bob |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 3, 2010 17:22:04 GMT -8
Major thanks, Monty. I was merely reporting what Bill King said and I would have looked it up despite the fact I have the greatest respect for that guy's knowledge of college athletics. As an aside, King - who is 47 years old - said that he loved college sports so much three decades ago that pre-Internet, as a teenager he would regularly go to the main downtown library in Memphis and read everything he could get his hands on about college sports from hard copy editions of newspapers they subscribed to. That dude is the ultimate in NCAA sports geeks and I really, really trust his judgment on this stuff. Way more than anybody else in the media. Yeah, ESPN and others have guys with massively bigger names, but many of them have proved to me they hardly know jack. Not so with King (He DOES know jack.) |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 3, 2010 17:27:04 GMT -8
Bill King of Rivals Radio is of the opinion you never hire anyone to be a head coach at the DIA level whose experience has been exclusively at the JC and/or Division II level since they haven't had to concern themselves about scholarships and APR at either level. That makes sense to me, so the biggest knock I would have about the hire was that Craft had a mere two years during which he had to be concerned about scholarships or APR. Tom became SDSU's football coach as the result of the biggest clusterphuck of a hiring process I've ever heard of conducted by one of the two worst athletic directors ever at a school which has had more than its share of merely bad ones. As to Tollner, I agree with Steve that he was better than either Craft or Chuck. Although that isn't saying much, I actually think Ted did a good job for four years but then lost the fire in his belly needed to put in the horrendous hours necessary to be truly successful as a DIA head coach. On your first point, I'd agree but would add that JC coaches also don't have to worry about admissions since JCs will pretty much take anyone - Hell, City College took me despite having graduated 625 in a class of 675. It's been said that Craft brought a JC mindset with him, and I think the number of JC players who never made it into school is proof of that. As to your second point, from what I was told at the time by someone who had access to friends of Tedford, it was, in fact, a total cluster-f@#k. What I was told was that Bay kept calling Tedford, trying to convince him to take the job but Tedford didn't like the economics and kept refusing. Faced with Tedford's final refusal, Bay went to Plan B and hired Craft, which was ridiculous because he probably could have hired a successful D1-AA coach instead. =Bob Bob, I'm convinced that only three things have totally phucked up SDSU football: 1. The failure to fire Ted Tollner two years earlier. 2. The hiring of Craft rather than one of several far better applicants like Dick Tomey and Rich Brooks, who were also available. 3. The hiring of Chuck Long rather than Jimbo Fisher, who SDSU spent $35K to have Chuck Neinas recommend. I'm convinced that those three huge mistakes are the difference between us hoping and praying for any bowl appearance this year and being as at least as good as AFA. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 3, 2010 17:43:37 GMT -8
Tom Craft the Worst hire in college Football History  |
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Post by zurac315 on Jul 3, 2010 19:50:14 GMT -8
Who cares?
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Post by AztecWilliam on Jul 4, 2010 10:10:10 GMT -8
Tom Craft the Worst hire in college Football History Not even close. First of all, the kind of statement you make here is virtually impossible to verify since there are no accepted criteria with which to judge various candidates. Even looking at won/loss records is not conclusive since many coaches with a poor record have actually done a great job considering the resources available to them. But more importantly, Tom Craft actually accomplished several things that have eluded subsequent Aztec coaches. I point especially to wins over Utah and BYU, plus a very close loss to TCU. Furthermore, his teams did quite well in losing efforts against some of the best opponents in the country (Michigan, Ohio State, Wisconsin, and Notre Dame come to mind). Tom Craft was a very poor choice to succeed Ted Tollner, but his performance was at least mediocre. The word "mediocre" would not apply to the worst coach of all time. Final thought; can we just let this Tom Craft fetish go, for god's sake! ! ! Remember, though he did not get the job dne, he did not hire himself. AzWm |
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Post by retiredaztec on Jul 4, 2010 10:34:04 GMT -8
Tom Craft the Worst hire in college Football History Not even close. First of all, the kind of statement you make here is virtually impossible to verify since there are no accepted criteria with which to judge various candidates. Even looking at won/loss records is not conclusive since many coaches with a poor record have actually done a great job considering the resources available to them. But more importantly, Tom Craft actually accomplished several things that have eluded subsequent Aztec coaches. I point especially to wins over Utah and BYU, plus a very close loss to TCU. Furthermore, his teams did quite well in losing efforts against some of the best opponents in the country (Michigan, Ohio State, Wisconsin, and Notre Dame come to mind). Tom Craft was a very poor choice to succeed Ted Tollner, but his performance was at least mediocre. The word "mediocre" would not apply to the worst coach of all time. Final thought; can we just let this Tom Craft fetish go, for god's sake! ! ! Remember, though he did not get the job dne, he did not hire himself. AzWm I totally agree with this assessment. This program had some high points during TC's tenure, but in the end it wasn't meant to be. I was truly disappointed but not surprised he was not able to turn this program around. And as was explained to me by someone with more knowledge of the situation, I understand his last year was going to be his last year, regardless of his record. I can only imagine that continuing to pull these two from the grave is more a reflection of how stagnant this program remains. It's unfortunate there's nothing better to talk about. If there was really sincere optimism on this board about the future of this program there wouldn't be the need to raise the dead. Would there? |
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Post by aztec70 on Jul 4, 2010 10:35:34 GMT -8
Tom Craft the Worst hire in college Football History I don't know, there is always Chuck Long. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 4, 2010 10:41:42 GMT -8
And as was explained to me by someone with more knowledge of the situation, I understand his last year was going to be his last year, regardless of his record. I've heard the same, also from an insider. I have to think, however, that had Craft managed to fashion a miracle season and win the conference that they would have had difficulty firing him but the fact he had yet another losing season made it easy. BTW, those who cite Craft's 6-6 record his second season as some sort of great accomplishment always manage to overlook the fact he beat TWO DIAA schools that year. Mediocrity is finishing .500 against like competition. Craft never did that so although he was superior to Chuck, Craft was never even mediocre. |
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Post by aztecwin on Jul 4, 2010 10:55:26 GMT -8
I would rather think of what we have building right now. Let those last two guys go. We are getting what I think are better recruits in the program and are coaching them up real hard.
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Post by cacique on Jul 4, 2010 11:13:51 GMT -8
As an Aztec relic from the ruins of Tenochtitlan I have seen a lot of Aztec football coaches,and the worst was Paul Governali.He stated publicly how demeaning it was to have to recruit.Ironically,he replaced Bill Schutte who was probably the most under rated Aztec foot ball coach.In fact, Don Coryell retained Schutte as an assistant.
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Post by The Aztec Panther on Jul 4, 2010 13:01:32 GMT -8
The ideal situation (from my perspective) following Tollner's tenure would have been to hire a legit HC and to have then added Tom Craft as offensive coordinator. Craft could coach, and he could recruit - it was his judgment as HC in some areas that cost the progam a bit (reaching on recruits that were not as likely to actually ever make it on the field due to academic issues was a big problem).
Neither Craft nor Chuck Long were ready for the gig.
That much is obvious, which is why both AztecWilliam and I had considered closing the thread. There wasn't much to be gained from stating the obvious, but the arguments over the subject can and often do spill into other threads...
And, yeah, Paul Governali may have been worse than either of them, so there you go.
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