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Post by vision on Jan 3, 2011 16:06:34 GMT -8
I HOPE EVERYONE READS THE FIRST POST IN THIS THREAD, AND THEN FORMULATES AN OPINION. "ZUMA" is not going to be supplemental forever......
That bothers me.
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Post by Steve Aztec on Jan 3, 2011 16:08:51 GMT -8
I like Steve and as far as I know, he likes me. But sometimes his heart gets ahead of his head. In this particular case I think he's giving Schnall credit for more power than he has. As others have pointed out, there is nowhere near the political pressure there was when we went through that exercise. From a political standpoint, the pressure really wasn't from MEChA, it was from the NCAA who decided to get all PC about Native American names and mascots. That no longer exists because the NCAA has agreed that the Aztecs were not Native Americans and has no problem with the name or the mascot. So anyone looking to get rid of Monty, assuming they are actually out there, have no political cover and never doubt that people who've reached their position aren't politicians. I think the backlash would be ugly, although in no way do I agree with Steve's suggestions on the wording of emails - what he suggests is simply unprofessional (to use a term that barely fits but one I think pretty much all of us understand.) It merges two issues - Monty and getting rid of Zuma - and that clouds the main issue, which is the continuing presence of Monty. I have problems with Zuma, but they are more design issues; as a jaguar, which was the symbol of Aztec shock troops, the representation is a farking joke and, as far as I'm concerned, an insult to Aztec culture - far, far more than Monty could ever be. The jaguar represented Tezcatlipoca, god of the night sky (thanks to Wiki for reminding me which god it was) and as such was a sacred animal. And quite frankly, if they wanted to do The Warrior correctly, he would have a faux jaguar skin cape (sorry to be PC, but Jaguars are my favorite big cats). Having gone off on that rather long tangent, if I were advise on emails, it would not be a demand to get rid of Zuma but rather to merge him with The Warrior to come up with something completely culturally accurate. Carlos did a damn fine job with the clothes, but it's still a rather idealized representation, albeit, one favored by the Mexican dancers who continue the Aztec tradition. And that's about the last you'll see from me on this <as they all sighed, THANK GOD>. =Bob =Bob, of course I like you. Always have and always will... Merge?....Are you kidding me? Zuma Must Go!!! He is being forced on the Aztec fan base.
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Post by aztecfred on Jan 3, 2011 19:19:24 GMT -8
It's nice to finally have some concrete answers with names and links, etc. But what I don't understand is this. The idea of Zuma was so hated as an idea. Yet, Rulon made it sound like Zuma was approved because they couldn't say "no" to Brian Sipe. Why couldn't you guys say no to Zuma, but yes to everything else? And it's absolutely ridiculous that SDSU doesn't pay squat for it's own namesake, but it does for Zuma. Why couldn't this issue be brought up and corrected? Obviously this information was only known to a select few. But why can't we get word out to the masses and make something happen? The only thing I know to do is start the email campaign to those individuals listed on this and the other thread on the topic. I'm sending mine today. How about a WE WANT MONTY chant? Maybe the show could get the ball rolling to give the REAL MONTY some love. We got rid of the Ambassadork, we can get rid of the BYWHO Cougar.
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Post by aztecfred on Jan 3, 2011 19:24:00 GMT -8
To some extent it is our own fault. The committee of 10 started out strong, even getting the Alumni Association agree to fund TWO people to serve as the Aztec Warrior so that we could cover more events. The idea was to have the "new" hire learn the ropes for a year while the "old" hire was still in school. That way there would be a continuation. It is not easy to be the mascot. People will ALWAYS unfairly compare the current Warrior to Carlos Gutierrez. No one will ever be able to replace him. It takes a special personality to fill the mascot role. We were also particularly interested in having the mascot go to the several local street fairs and festivals. Chet Carney has always advocated this, and we attempted to put it into action. Unfortunately, the committee was left to fund the entire project alone. No financial support from SDSU. Over time the makeup of the Warrior committee changed. After three years of hitting his head up against the brick wall that is the SDSU administration, the committee chairman, Bruce Johnson, resigned from the committee. Steve Anderson also left for personal reasons. I do not blame them in the least. It was a thankless job. No one replaced these two and the committee dwindled in size. It also was unable to put into place any of the suggestions and did not have the funding to maintain two people in the mascot role. This past year the committee was advised of the new traditions developed by Brian Sipe. This was done as a courtesy since those ideas included the use of the Aztec Warrior and his shield and spear. We rightly had no authority to veto anything. The decision had already been made by Steve Schnall of the athletic department to include a new, supplemental mascot. Schnall has been trying for 8 years to push this through and he finally found his opening. By calling Zuma a "supplemental character" and not a mascot he was able to circumvent the Alumni Association Warrior committee. This is how he presents it to the news media -- I could not find a link to the interview he gave one local news station after Zuma was introduced but that is what he said. We were told that Zuma would be a kid-friendly, cuddly character who would not go onto the field. Instead, what we got was a full-blown second mascot with his own "Growl" and introduction. Zuma gets more airtime on the stadium scoreboard than the Aztec Warrior. He often comes out with the basketball team and prances around center court before the games. Face it, he is now SDSU's SECOND mascot and the only one who is funded by the University. As a result of this Zuma character, I too finally resigned from the committee in September after the first football game. I had been lied to too many times. If the name Monty is disrespectful, then the name Zuma is also. If there isn't enough money to fund the Aztec Warrior's expenses, then there isn't enough money to fund Zuma either. When negotiating with SDSU for the return of the warrior, we were told that the University would not allow the long spear to be used, especially not to be planted into the football field in front of the visiting team bench because THIS was not historically accurate. But suddenly the long spear returns. And suddenly the arguments made against us are no longer valid?! As I said, I have been lied to by the University too many times. And so few people really care anyway. After all, most of you say, "Hey what's the big deal? It is just a mascot. It isn't hurting anything." All I can say is, this next time (which some of us believe is happening as we speak) there will not be an Aztec Warrior Foundation to come to save the mascot. Welcome to SDSU, Mr. byWho kitty cat! It's good of you to come forward and frame the argument with substantive inside info and a detailed run down of past events and players. You have provided plenty of very good information to consider. Speaking for myself, I needed more than what Steve had to offer in order to take this issue more seriously. I'm not one to believe something just because some guy said I should. I like to hear some facts and some details...a good argument, and you have provided that. Thank you. I'm still not convinced that SDSU is phasing out the Warrior; there's too much evidence to suggest the opposite. Much of the inside workings of the Monty debate you highlight for us is going on 10 years old. I'm not sure the political climate at SDSU surrounding the mascot is the same as it was 10 years ago. It seems there are old wounds and lingering hard feelings between the AWF and Schnall. I now can understand why thanks to you, but I'm not sure it means Schnall is hell bent on getting rid of the Warrior. It's good that some here are extra vigilant, and I'll be ready to join them if the school does move to get rid of the Warrior. I still don't appreciate those who claim it's a FACT that the Warrior is being phased out, but I do appreciate you coming forward with more information other than just "kill Zuma, he's phasing out the Warrior". A little reasoning and some details is all I ever asked for. Is that an apology to Steve? You should be satisfied that the is something up.
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Post by aztecfred on Jan 3, 2011 19:30:46 GMT -8
Face it, he is now SDSU's SECOND mascot and the only one who is funded by the University. As long as the Warrior remains does it really matter if there are two mascots? Regarding the funding, is it possible that SDSU's non funding of the Warrior removes them from any legal action to remove the Warrior? Just asking. If the name Monty is disrespectful, then the name Zuma is also. Not necessarily. As you know, the Native American groups had specific complaints regarding Monty. It wasn't just the name and it wasn't just the human character, it was both together. They didn't like the use nickname "Monty" applied to a human depiction of a specific Aztec leader. They thought it lacked dignity, and reduced historical leader to a silly caricature. How do fix that? Make the human Warrior mascot generic, and lose the nickname linked to an Aztec leader. The reason why it's alright to call the Cat "Zuma" is 1. He's not a human depiction of an Aztec, he's a cat. 2. The nickname is not applied to a character depicting the leader of a race of people. Again, he's a cat. If there isn't enough money to fund the Aztec Warrior's expenses, then there isn't enough money to fund Zuma either. When negotiating with SDSU for the return of the warrior, we were told that the University would not allow the long spear to be used, especially not to be planted into the football field in front of the visiting team bench because THIS was not historically accurate. If I'm not mistaken, the Warrior enters the field with the spear, hands it to a person not dressed as or representing an Aztec Indian. In this way the spear is re incorporated into SDSU tradition, but in a way that separates the Warrior from doing the actual spear planting. Denial? It's hard to see with your eyes closed. School funds BYWHO Cougar and lets Monty fend for itself. If it's true it's genius! Steve Schnall must of had help!
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Post by aztecfred on Jan 3, 2011 19:33:24 GMT -8
Two personal observations from a recent basketball game: 1) Two of my kids (aged 4 and 8) ran into Zuma during the game. They both high-fived Zuma (hey, kids and stuffed characters - what are ya gonna do?) - but my 8 year old said to me right after that, "I don't like Zuma, he scares me..." 2) I have recently noticed several current Aztec athletes wearing the Disgruntled Monty logo - including some at the recent game. It seems like the Disgruntled Monty logo is still the de facto Aztec logo, based on public attire. Zuma is a bad idea, period. The only people who notice him with any interest are under age 5 - and it seems that the large majority of people who financially support the university don't like him or the idea of him. Thanks for the information, Rulon (as well as your time and dedication). Monty the Original Gangsta!
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Post by aztecfred on Jan 3, 2011 19:36:50 GMT -8
Yes. And however annoying Campanile may be in general, he also makes a good point in saying that unlike in 2003 or whenever it was, there is no external political pressure being brought to bear to eliminate the Aztec Warrior. That said, It's a Schnall, Schnall World so maybe if Zuma is forced out, he'll be replaced by Mickey Mouse. No external political pressure, just apathy.
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Post by aztecfred on Jan 3, 2011 19:41:39 GMT -8
I'm not one to get too worked up about these issues and to some extent, I get it when it comes to trying to do something for the kids. But try to imagine if you will the "Aztec For Life" commercials that are uniformly celebrated as entertaining and effective with the Puma instead of the Warrior. Not the same impact to say the least. The Aztec Warrior and Monty before that are THE identity of the university. A Cougar for Life! The Cougars! The BYWHO Cougars! It's taken.
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Post by Zuma on Jan 3, 2011 20:18:41 GMT -8
I believe we will find out about the fate of the Warrior in May, let's see who are new president is, and wait until then. Weber doesn't much matter any more in this debate.
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Post by Steve Aztec on Jan 3, 2011 20:24:06 GMT -8
The only thing I know to do is start the email campaign to those individuals listed on this and the other thread on the topic. I'm sending mine today. How about a WE WANT MONTY chant? Maybe the show could get the ball rolling to give the REAL MONTY some love. We got rid of the Ambassadork, we can get rid of the BYWHO Cougar. A "We Want Monty" chant was started at a basketball game about 7-9 years ago by a certain musical Aztec fan. It was in the heat of the battle of the battle to bring back the mascot. About 60% of the crowd joined in at this NIT even at Cox. I glanced at Dr. Weber and he had his head down and refused to look up. I consider it the turning point of our battle. Not long after Dr. Weber called and wanted to have a meeting about bringing back a Monty like mascot (as long as it didn't look too much like Monty). This is a very effective way to state your opinion. However, I wouldn't count on "The Show" to participate. Steve Schnall has them in his back pocket.
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Post by Steve Aztec on Jan 3, 2011 20:27:49 GMT -8
I believe we will find out about the fate of the Warrior in May, let's see who are new president is, and wait until then. Weber doesn't much matter any more in this debate. Actually Swinko he does. He can make a public statement that he supports the Aztec Warrior and that Zuma is in no way the mascot and never will be before he leaves. Or he can be silent and that will show us his real feelings and what is going on with Zuma.
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Post by Steve Aztec on Jan 3, 2011 22:16:41 GMT -8
Denial? It's hard to see with your eyes closed. School funds BYWHO Cougar and lets Monty fend for itself. If it's true it's genius! Steve Schnall must of had help! I have never seen anyone as much in denial as this guy. It is amazing.
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Post by Zuma on Jan 3, 2011 23:02:01 GMT -8
Statement or no statement, weber is probably smartly keeping this on the back burner as there are things that he probably feels is more important than this argument, and he can let the next president worry about this.
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Post by Steve Aztec on Jan 4, 2011 7:57:46 GMT -8
Statement or no statement, weber is probably smartly keeping this on the back burner as there are things that he probably feels is more important than this argument, and he can let the next president worry about this. I won't disagree with this. Dr. Weber has done some great things for San Diego State....unfortunatly he will always be remembered by man as the President who got rid of Monty Montezuma.
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Post by Steve Aztec on Jan 5, 2011 8:22:42 GMT -8
There should be many new readers and lurkers today on this board... I would like for all of you new members and new lurkers to take the time to read my first post on this thread, as well as the first post on the following link... aztecmesa.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=ats&action=display&thread=7734&page=1***Warning to Zuma lovers...I will be bringing this thread To The Top all day today and tomorrow for maximum exposure.***
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Post by Bob Forsythe on Jan 5, 2011 8:33:39 GMT -8
I like Steve and as far as I know, he likes me. But sometimes his heart gets ahead of his head. In this particular case I think he's giving Schnall credit for more power than he has. As others have pointed out, there is nowhere near the political pressure there was when we went through that exercise. From a political standpoint, the pressure really wasn't from MEChA, it was from the NCAA who decided to get all PC about Native American names and mascots. That no longer exists because the NCAA has agreed that the Aztecs were not Native Americans and has no problem with the name or the mascot. So anyone looking to get rid of Monty, assuming they are actually out there, have no political cover and never doubt that people who've reached their position aren't politicians. I think the backlash would be ugly, although in no way do I agree with Steve's suggestions on the wording of emails - what he suggests is simply unprofessional (to use a term that barely fits but one I think pretty much all of us understand.) It merges two issues - Monty and getting rid of Zuma - and that clouds the main issue, which is the continuing presence of Monty. I have problems with Zuma, but they are more design issues; as a jaguar, which was the symbol of Aztec shock troops, the representation is a farking joke and, as far as I'm concerned, an insult to Aztec culture - far, far more than Monty could ever be. The jaguar represented Tezcatlipoca, god of the night sky (thanks to Wiki for reminding me which god it was) and as such was a sacred animal. And quite frankly, if they wanted to do The Warrior correctly, he would have a faux jaguar skin cape (sorry to be PC, but Jaguars are my favorite big cats). Having gone off on that rather long tangent, if I were advise on emails, it would not be a demand to get rid of Zuma but rather to merge him with The Warrior to come up with something completely culturally accurate. Carlos did a damn fine job with the clothes, but it's still a rather idealized representation, albeit, one favored by the Mexican dancers who continue the Aztec tradition. And that's about the last you'll see from me on this <as they all sighed, THANK GOD>. =Bob =Bob, of course I like you. Always have and always will... Merge?....Are you kidding me? Zuma Must Go!!! He is being forced on the Aztec fan base. By merge, I mean use the historically correct clothes as they were worn by the shock troops, which I think included a jaguar cape. =Bob
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Post by Steve Aztec on Jan 5, 2011 8:36:55 GMT -8
=Bob, of course I like you. Always have and always will... Merge?....Are you kidding me? Zuma Must Go!!! He is being forced on the Aztec fan base. By merge, I mean use the historically correct clothes as they were worn by the shock troops, which I think included a jaguar cape. =Bob Ahh, I understand =Bob. Yes.
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Post by Steve Aztec on Jan 5, 2011 9:35:03 GMT -8
TTT
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Post by Steve Aztec on Jan 5, 2011 11:22:55 GMT -8
TTT
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Post by aztecron on Jan 5, 2011 11:24:43 GMT -8
I'm just curious, are you looking for a specific answer, Steve? Is that why you're pinning to the top?
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