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Post by campanile on Jan 3, 2011 10:17:30 GMT -8
Mr. Educated defeated again. Merry Christmas . That doesn't make sense. How is asking for facts, details and a logical argument (and then thanking the person for providing it) equal to being defeated? What do you have against my education from SDSU? Yes, I have a BA ('93) and MS ('98) from SDSU? A lot of people in the San Diego area have degrees from SDSU. Is there a problem with that?
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Post by AztecWilliam on Jan 3, 2011 10:50:43 GMT -8
Another not so well-thought-out opinion from Steve presented as fact, but lacking in any details to support it. Thank you Steve for yet another meaningless contribution to the conversation. I'll be sure to let the moderator know that you're engaging in childish name calling again. Well, I think it would be more correct to say that Steve was making an assertion. If one says, "Homer if fat," that is a claim that can be empirically checked for its veracity. If one says, "Homer is funny," that is an opinion that cannot be substantiated in the same way. It is a subjective viewpoint with which others may agree or disagree. I'm not crazy about personal attacks, but calling someone a joke is pretty mild stuff compared with, for example, saying that someone is a child-molesting, counterfeiting, pyromaniac. AzWm
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Post by Deleted on Jan 3, 2011 11:03:52 GMT -8
Regardless of whether there's a conspiracy or not against the Warrior (and I think there certainly is), the biggest problem with the cat comes down to a simple branding/marketing issue. I've run a few multi-million-dollar corporate marketing/advertising/pr programs during my career. And the last thing you ever want to see is your brand getting diluted or your customers getting confused. Sadly, I think SDSU is doing just that with the stupid cat. It has nothing to do with the core image/brand -- that of an Aztec warrior. Any attempts to make a case for the jaguar having a peripheral relationship to the Aztecs is simply trying to pound a square peg into a round hole. If you have to flowchart the relationship, it's simply too confusing for the consumer. Sorta like having to explain a joke. By the time you do that, it ain't funny. And if it causes you some confusion in the marketplace with some other rival brands -- BYU, Wazzu, Penn St., etc., etc. -- that's a Marketing 101 crime. There might be a few kids who like the fuzzy cat. OK, I get it. But the long-term damage to the Aztec brand is a much bigger issue than allegedly giving kids something fuzzy to look at. Well put. Yes. And however annoying Campanile may be in general, he also makes a good point in saying that unlike in 2003 or whenever it was, there is no external political pressure being brought to bear to eliminate the Aztec Warrior. That said, It's a Schnall, Schnall World so maybe if Zuma is forced out, he'll be replaced by Mickey Mouse.
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Post by AztecWilliam on Jan 3, 2011 11:15:03 GMT -8
How old is Schnall, how long has he been in his present post, and when might he want to retire?
AzWm
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Post by pdraztec on Jan 3, 2011 12:36:34 GMT -8
Rulon-- Many, many thanks for giving the historical threadline to many of the people here who didn't know the actual background.
I also would like to once again thank Steve, Martha, Bruce , yourself and the others who pioneered this effort.
During this time I was getting tired and fed up with the AAF , the Athletic Dept. and the Administration regarding athletics, the continual bad decisions regarding FB, the mascot issue, etc, etc. I decided to forget about donating to the AAF....having been a donor since graduating in the late 60's and NEVER having received a personal call or letter from anyone thanking me for my support. I thought , " If you don't care, why the hell should I care?"
I met Bruce and PB about this time and they told me what they and the committee were doing and I decided that I would give my donation to the Aztec Warrior Foundation instead.
I think they were/are right. I will make the appropiate e-mails and continue to support this important matter.
Let's see......we can't call the mascot Monty but we can call the highest annual awards given by the University......the Montys? No dichotomy here, right? Should we start calling these awards the Zumas? Of course not.
Sidebar- A few years ago I happened to be watching the news (LA market) and they were showing the annual Mexican festival/parade. There were many guys dressed up in full regalia , marching in the parade, depicting Aztec Warriors. Were they dressed like the bird-eating- man? NO. Were they dressed like the sleepover Ambassadork? NO. They were dressed up exactly like the Aztec Warrior that Carlos depicted. No demonstrations against this costume by any of the thousands of people watching.
LET'S KEEP THE PRESSURE ON THESE PEOPLE.
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Post by SDAztec on Jan 3, 2011 12:43:36 GMT -8
To Bad Kids were scared and hated Monty!
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Post by campanile on Jan 3, 2011 12:47:08 GMT -8
Well, I think it would be more correct to say that Steve was making an assertion. If one says, "Homer if fat," that is a claim that can be empirically checked for its veracity. If one says, "Homer is funny," that is an opinion that cannot be substantiated in the same way. It is a subjective viewpoint with which others may agree or disagree. I'm not crazy about personal attacks, but calling someone a joke is pretty mild stuff compared with, for example, saying that someone is a child-molesting, counterfeiting, pyromaniac. AzWm Steve has repeatedly said that Zuma was created by SDSU to replace the Aztec Warrior. He has hammered away trying to create a sense of urgency among the Aztec faithful. He uses his former association with the AWF to lend credibility to his assertions. I don't think it's asking too much for some current and relevant information to back up the assertions. Especially from someone who claims to be "in the know". Finally, a good and reasoned response came from Rulon, not Steve. If Steve would present it as opinion that would be just fine, but he doesn't. It's called fear mongering. You're right about the name calling. Unfortunately Steve has decided to get the moderator involved, so what's good for the goose is good for the gander. I didn't care before Steve got the moderator involved. Calling me a "Joke" is name calling. It is not attacking my argument, which is fair game. It's attacking me personally. I've tried to move away from that. I even offered Steve an olive branch before Christmas... his response was more petty name calling and more unsubstantiated assertions. So be it.
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Post by thomgeno on Jan 3, 2011 12:52:04 GMT -8
No, campanile, you have not just asked for more info. You ridiculed SA from the start.
I believe you are Schnall, or have a man crush on him.
Zuma must die.
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Post by campanile on Jan 3, 2011 12:56:02 GMT -8
Yes. And however annoying Campanile may be in general, he also makes a good point in saying that unlike in 2003 or whenever it was, there is no external political pressure being brought to bear to eliminate the Aztec Warrior. That said, It's a Schnall, Schnall World so maybe if Zuma is forced out, he'll be replaced by Mickey Mouse. And regardless of however annoying sleepinggiantsfan may or may not be, I'd like to thank him for giving credit where it's due..back handed insults aside.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 3, 2011 13:09:01 GMT -8
I'm not one to get too worked up about these issues and to some extent, I get it when it comes to trying to do something for the kids. But try to imagine if you will the "Aztec For Life" commercials that are uniformly celebrated as entertaining and effective with the Puma instead of the Warrior. Not the same impact to say the least. The Aztec Warrior and Monty before that are THE identity of the university.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 3, 2011 13:10:43 GMT -8
And regardless of however annoying sleepinggiantsfan may or may not be, I'd like to thank him for giving credit where it's due..back handed insults aside. The one thing that sticks in my craw about you was your thread on the old board about four years ago alleging that Dubya had begun drinking again. I thought the guy was one of the handful of worst presidents ever. However, he WAS the president so regardless of my absence of respect for him as a person, I still had respect for the OFFICE and its vast importance to our country. So the fact you posted that with nary a shred of evidence to support your argument was way beyond the pale, in my book. Thankfully you have desisted from such political shenanigans on this board.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 3, 2011 13:16:34 GMT -8
Rulon-- Many, many thanks for giving the historical threadline to many of the people here who didn't know the actual background. I also would like to once again thank Steve, Martha, Bruce , yourself and the others who pioneered this effort. During this time I was getting tired and fed up with the AAF , the Athletic Dept. and the Administration regarding athletics, the continual bad decisions regarding FB, the mascot issue, etc, etc. I decided to forget about donating to the AAF....having been a donor since graduating in the late 60's and NEVER having received a personal call or letter from anyone thanking me for my support. I thought , " If you don't care, why the hell should I care?" I met Bruce and PB about this time and they told me what they and the committee were doing and I decided that I would give my donation to the Aztec Warrior Foundation instead. I think they were/are right. I will make the appropiate e-mails and continue to support this important matter. Let's see......we can't call the mascot Monty but we can call the highest annual awards given by the University......the Montys? No dichotomy here, right? Should we start calling these awards the Zumas? Of course not. Sidebar- A few years ago I happened to be watching the news (LA market) and they were showing the annual Mexican festival/parade. There were many guys dressed up in full regalia , marching in the parade, depicting Aztec Warriors. Were they dressed like the bird-eating- man? NO. Were they dressed like the sleepover Ambassadork? NO. They were dressed up exactly like the Aztec Warrior that Carlos depicted. No demonstrations against this costume by any of the thousands of people watching. LET'S KEEP THE PRESSURE ON THESE PEOPLE. I liked the Ambassadork :-) What's not to like
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Post by Morpheus on Jan 3, 2011 13:39:03 GMT -8
I received a response from Schnall saying "There are no plans to remove the Aztec Warrior. He is an integral part of our tradition and atmosphere. Thanks for taking the time to write."
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Post by seasonticketholder on Jan 3, 2011 13:59:39 GMT -8
The one thing that sticks in my craw about you was your thread on the old board about four years ago... Talk about holding a grudge. 4 years?? Let it go!!!
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Post by Deleted on Jan 3, 2011 14:29:52 GMT -8
The one thing that sticks in my craw about you was your thread on the old board about four years ago... Talk about holding a grudge. 4 years?? Let it go!!! I basically have. I think Campanile would tell you I'm generally much more objective about his posts than many others are. I certainly don't jump all over him at the drop of a pin like some do.
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Post by azson on Jan 3, 2011 14:51:44 GMT -8
How could we be disrespectful of MontezumaII when he was reviled by the Aztec people he betrayed by collaborating with the Spanish. +1
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Post by Steve Aztec on Jan 3, 2011 15:50:02 GMT -8
How old is Schnall, how long has he been in his present post, and when might he want to retire? AzWm William this is just a guess. Schnall seems to be about 40-42. I have seen him around campus in various positions for at least 10-12 years. The first time he was brought to my attention was by Aztec Bruce. Bruce pointed out at an Aztec Baseball game that the guy wearing the Cornell sweatshirt was in charge of our marketing....Steve Schnall. Wouldn't you be wearing an Aztec shirt at an Aztec game if you were in charge of marketing?
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Post by PQ Aztec on Jan 3, 2011 15:54:16 GMT -8
Great Post. I for one enjoy Steve's support of my beloved Aztecs. While I don't always agree with him, I due respect his passion. As for the Zuma crap, I just wish it would go away. As far as I am concerned the Aztec Warrior will always be Monty!!
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Post by Steve Aztec on Jan 3, 2011 15:58:08 GMT -8
Well, I think it would be more correct to say that Steve was making an assertion. If one says, "Homer if fat," that is a claim that can be empirically checked for its veracity. If one says, "Homer is funny," that is an opinion that cannot be substantiated in the same way. It is a subjective viewpoint with which others may agree or disagree. I'm not crazy about personal attacks, but calling someone a joke is pretty mild stuff compared with, for example, saying that someone is a child-molesting, counterfeiting, pyromaniac. AzWm Steve has repeatedly said that Zuma was created by SDSU to replace the Aztec Warrior. He has hammered away trying to create a sense of urgency among the Aztec faithful. He uses his former association with the AWF to lend credibility to his assertions. I don't think it's asking too much for some current and relevant information to back up the assertions. Especially from someone who claims to be "in the know". Finally, a good and reasoned response came from Rulon, not Steve. If Steve would present it as opinion that would be just fine, but he doesn't. It's called fear mongering. You're right about the name calling. Unfortunately Steve has decided to get the moderator involved, so what's good for the goose is good for the gander. I didn't care before Steve got the moderator involved. Calling me a "Joke" is name calling. It is not attacking my argument, which is fair game. It's attacking me personally. I've tried to move away from that. I even offered Steve an olive branch before Christmas... his response was more petty name calling and more unsubstantiated assertions. So be it. Actually Campanile, I said the same things that Rulon did on the Zuma topic (but not nearly as eloquent). I just didn't use real names, because I had promised a couple of people who work/interact thru business that I would not use their names. They felt if I used their name, it may cause them problems. I thought you would be smart enough to figure that out...since you are a college gaduate and all......Shazzam!!! And actually part 2 Campy. I didn't decide to get the MOD involved about name calling. The MOD Erik asked me to send him links that I thought violated his rules, since I'm on the board all the time and his time is limited. Of course then Erik chastised me for sending him the links...Go figure. Campanile, you knew exactly what I was saying all the time on this subject. And you knew I was exactly right on the entire subject, but you chose to play games. Now lets move on.....ZUMA MUST BE BANNED!!!!!!
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Post by Bob Forsythe on Jan 3, 2011 16:00:51 GMT -8
I like Steve and as far as I know, he likes me. But sometimes his heart gets ahead of his head. In this particular case I think he's giving Schnall credit for more power than he has. As others have pointed out, there is nowhere near the political pressure there was when we went through that exercise. From a political standpoint, the pressure really wasn't from MEChA, it was from the NCAA who decided to get all PC about Native American names and mascots. That no longer exists because the NCAA has agreed that the Aztecs were not Native Americans and has no problem with the name or the mascot.
So anyone looking to get rid of Monty, assuming they are actually out there, have no political cover and never doubt that people who've reached their position aren't politicians.
I think the backlash would be ugly, although in no way do I agree with Steve's suggestions on the wording of emails - what he suggests is simply unprofessional (to use a term that barely fits but one I think pretty much all of us understand.) It merges two issues - Monty and getting rid of Zuma - and that clouds the main issue, which is the continuing presence of Monty.
I have problems with Zuma, but they are more design issues; as a jaguar, which was the symbol of Aztec shock troops, the representation is a farking joke and, as far as I'm concerned, an insult to Aztec culture - far, far more than Monty could ever be. The jaguar represented Tezcatlipoca, god of the night sky (thanks to Wiki for reminding me which god it was) and as such was a sacred animal. And quite frankly, if they wanted to do The Warrior correctly, he would have a faux jaguar skin cape (sorry to be PC, but Jaguars are my favorite big cats).
Having gone off on that rather long tangent, if I were advise on emails, it would not be a demand to get rid of Zuma but rather to merge him with The Warrior to come up with something completely culturally accurate. Carlos did a damn fine job with the clothes, but it's still a rather idealized representation, albeit, one favored by the Mexican dancers who continue the Aztec tradition.
And that's about the last you'll see from me on this <as they all sighed, THANK GOD>.
=Bob
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