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Post by johneaztec on Jul 6, 2023 10:26:09 GMT -8
Ha!!! Thanks for the laugh on this one. Hilarious. Take the L over this Grisham debate? You need to get out of this conversation concerning Grisham, let YOU taking the L. I understand you keep trying to compare him to Cronenworth, be a use that's all you got. The league average SUCKS. When do you think you'll understand that? Never, because you've been in Grishams corner all along and not Cronenworths. You would never backtrack and say you're wrong about a guy, ever. You've proven that. You're in his jock strap, continually, about his defense and that he's an "average" hitter. You do understand that being average can really suck, right? You're undeniable devotion to him makes you incredibly blinded by the facts of what he does out there. His strikeout ratio is absolutely horrendous, and no he does not put the ball in play NEARLY enough. That's obvious to everyone, but you. It really isn't a debate because all you've done is repeat "Strikes out and doesn't put the ball in play NEARLY enough." I'm not comparing him to anyone, I'm using Cronenworth for contextual purposes to illustrate the density of the argument. It's dumb, specifically when there's a guy who's levels of magnitude worse than he is. There's a Pacific Ocean between "massive liability" and the reality of his true level of production when it's utilized in the proper context. His strikeout rate is 28%. Identical to last year. The difference between last year and this year is he's barreling the ball at a 15% rate, which is 14th best in baseball among all qualified hitters. He's underperforming his expected slugging by 70 points and his on base percentage by nearly 30. I guarantee you we aren't having this "debate" if his slash line is .230/.345/.450...and if we were, it'd be even sillier than it is now. You don't understand statistics. It's fine. But stop portraying falsehoods in the name of ignorance. It goes nowhere. By definition, "average" can't "suck" because then half the league would suck....and then it becomes a league issue, not a Grisham issue, yet again. When I say he's basically a league average hitter, I mean it. 100 is the league average for wRC+. Simple, easy baseline. Yet all you see is batting average and counting stats and your comprehension ends there. Some of us don't believe in that, thankfully, and look for beyond surface level details to explain things. Some things ARE that simple Ryan, such as the fact that he strikes way too much, and looking way too much as well. He doesn't put the ball in play enough. I don't bring up his average, so that's not true. I know averages can be deceiving. There's a reason he's hitting eighth and ninth in the order, and it's not because he's an "average" hitter. It's because of his glove, and he does have occasional power and be a use he's simply not a very good hitter. Yeah, if he's in the category of an average MLB hitter, then average mean you suck suck. He's also not "average" in some important categories such as strike out ratio. Also, just because he's on par with his horrible strikeout performance as last year, doesn't make it good. Come on now. He was horrible last year, as well.
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Post by aztecryan on Jul 6, 2023 10:31:18 GMT -8
It really isn't a debate because all you've done is repeat "Strikes out and doesn't put the ball in play NEARLY enough." I'm not comparing him to anyone, I'm using Cronenworth for contextual purposes to illustrate the density of the argument. It's dumb, specifically when there's a guy who's levels of magnitude worse than he is. There's a Pacific Ocean between "massive liability" and the reality of his true level of production when it's utilized in the proper context. His strikeout rate is 28%. Identical to last year. The difference between last year and this year is he's barreling the ball at a 15% rate, which is 14th best in baseball among all qualified hitters. He's underperforming his expected slugging by 70 points and his on base percentage by nearly 30. I guarantee you we aren't having this "debate" if his slash line is .230/.345/.450...and if we were, it'd be even sillier than it is now. You don't understand statistics. It's fine. But stop portraying falsehoods in the name of ignorance. It goes nowhere. By definition, "average" can't "suck" because then half the league would suck....and then it becomes a league issue, not a Grisham issue, yet again. When I say he's basically a league average hitter, I mean it. 100 is the league average for wRC+. Simple, easy baseline. Yet all you see is batting average and counting stats and your comprehension ends there. Some of us don't believe in that, thankfully, and look for beyond surface level details to explain things. Some things ARE that simple Ryan, such as the fact that he strikes way too much, and looking way too much as well. He doesn't put the ball in play enough. I don't bring up his average, so that's not true. I know averages can be deceiving. There's a reason he's hitting eighth and ninth in the order, and it's not because he's an "average" hitter. It's because of his glove, and he does have occasional power and be a use he's simply not a very good hitter. Yeah, if he's in the category of an average MLB hitter, then average mean you suck suck. He's also not "average" in some important categories such as strike out ratio. Also, just because he's on par with his horrible strikeout performance as last year, doesn't make it good. Come on now. He was horrible last year, as well. And the goalposts shift....
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Post by johneaztec on Jul 6, 2023 10:34:10 GMT -8
Some things ARE that simple Ryan, such as the fact that he strikes way too much, and looking way too much as well. He doesn't put the ball in play enough. I don't bring up his average, so that's not true. I know averages can be deceiving. There's a reason he's hitting eighth and ninth in the order, and it's not because he's an "average" hitter. It's because of his glove, and he does have occasional power and be a use he's simply not a very good hitter. Yeah, if he's in the category of an average MLB hitter, then average mean you suck suck. He's also not "average" in some important categories such as strike out ratio. Also, just because he's on par with his horrible strikeout performance as last year, doesn't make it good. Come on now. He was horrible last year, as well. And the goalposts shift. Very consistent. The only thing happening your end is the use of blinders the size of Secretariat's.
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Post by aztecryan on Jul 6, 2023 10:39:45 GMT -8
Very consistent. The only thing happening your end is the use of blinders the size of Secretariat's. You're not consistent at all. You're now trying to use the batting order as justification, ignoring optimization and the reality that the Padres have four All-Stars on their roster. You think he's going to bat cleanup? Lol. I can't believe I have to explain this, but with the DH, you want a guy like Grisham at the bottom of the order to help turn the lineup over. A guy who will see pitches, has some pop and offer you some chances to extend innings. Same argument as Ha-seong Kim, who has turned himself into a very good player. He strikes out 4% more than his career average. Fine. But that's offset by the increase in walks, point blank. Saying he doesn't put the ball in play enough is false, however.
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Post by johneaztec on Jul 6, 2023 10:49:32 GMT -8
Very consistent. The only thing happening your end is the use of blinders the size of Secretariat's. You're not consistent at all. You're now trying to use the batting order as justification, ignoring optimization and the reality that the Padres have four All-Stars on their roster. You think he's going to bat cleanup? Lol. I can't believe I have to explain this, but with the DH, you want a guy like Grisham at the bottom of the order to help turn the lineup over. A guy who will see pitches, has some pop and offer you some chances to extend innings. Same argument as Ha-seong Kim, who has turned himself into a very good player. He strikes out 4% more than his career average. Fine. But that's offset by the increase in walks, point blank. Saying he doesn't put the ball in play enough is false, however. I'm not using where he bats in the lineup to justify why he sucks. It just adds to it. He's not hitting fifth, sixth, seventh, and sometimes eighth. He bats ninth in the order because he sucks at the plate, except for some occasional power. Actually, what's unbelievable is that myself, and others, have to explain to you WHY he sucks. MLB average sucks. There ya go. You say he's just fine at the plate. Wow. Again, give the blinders a rest every once in awhile.
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Post by aztecryan on Jul 6, 2023 11:07:22 GMT -8
You're not consistent at all. You're now trying to use the batting order as justification, ignoring optimization and the reality that the Padres have four All-Stars on their roster. You think he's going to bat cleanup? Lol. I can't believe I have to explain this, but with the DH, you want a guy like Grisham at the bottom of the order to help turn the lineup over. A guy who will see pitches, has some pop and offer you some chances to extend innings. Same argument as Ha-seong Kim, who has turned himself into a very good player. He strikes out 4% more than his career average. Fine. But that's offset by the increase in walks, point blank. Saying he doesn't put the ball in play enough is false, however. I'm not using where he bats in the lineup to justify why he sucks. It just adds to it. He's not hitting fifth, sixth, seventh, and sometimes eighth. He bats ninth in the order because he sucks at the plate, except for some occasional power. Actually, what's unbelievable is that myself, and others, have to explain to you WHY he sucks. MLB average sucks. There ya go. You say he's just fine at the plate. Wow. Again, give the blinders a rest every once in awhile. What's unbelievable is the stupidity of the statement that half the players in baseball suck. Like...truly just absurdly dumb. (Once again, that makes it a league thing, not a Grisham thing?) Circular logic at its finest. The reason wRC+ exists is to differentiate between hitting in San Francisco as opposed to Denver. Ballpark factors are a thing. So if a 100 wRC+ guy is terrible....where are we drawing the line? I say he's fine because league average is just that....fine. He's not Austin Hedges, Austin Nola or any one of dozens of actually *bad" hitters.
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Post by johneaztec on Jul 6, 2023 11:52:29 GMT -8
I'm not using where he bats in the lineup to justify why he sucks. It just adds to it. He's not hitting fifth, sixth, seventh, and sometimes eighth. He bats ninth in the order because he sucks at the plate, except for some occasional power. Actually, what's unbelievable is that myself, and others, have to explain to you WHY he sucks. MLB average sucks. There ya go. You say he's just fine at the plate. Wow. Again, give the blinders a rest every once in awhile. What's unbelievable is the stupidity of the statement that half the players in baseball suck. Like...truly just absurdly dumb. (Once again, that makes it a league thing, not a Grisham thing?) Circular logic at its finest. The reason wRC+ exists is to differentiate between hitting in San Francisco as opposed to Denver. Ballpark factors are a thing. So if a 100 wRC+ guy is terrible....where are we drawing the line? I say he's fine because league average is just that....fine. He's not Austin Hedges, Austin Nola or any one of dozens of actually *bad" hitters. No, but he's a full time, starting center fielder, not part time catcher. Another bad example on your part. That's what's dumb. You really have a knack for making bad comparisons to try to prove your point. His performance at the plate sucks for all to see. If his performance at the plate gets someone to call him average, then yeah, in all actuality average actually sucks. Of course it's a Grisham thing, AND a league thing. It's simply a VERY low bar. League average sucks. If a classroom of students average grades on a test throughout the year are 50 percent, does that make them good students? Heck no. They are still sucking in the classroom. It's really not that difficult, for most. I understand how they calculate that stat. It makes zero difference in the outcome being that the average hitter in baseball, is really below average, especially when a guy strikes out as much as Grisham, and does not put the ball in play NEARLY enough.
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Post by aztecryan on Jul 6, 2023 12:02:33 GMT -8
What's unbelievable is the stupidity of the statement that half the players in baseball suck. Like...truly just absurdly dumb. (Once again, that makes it a league thing, not a Grisham thing?) Circular logic at its finest. The reason wRC+ exists is to differentiate between hitting in San Francisco as opposed to Denver. Ballpark factors are a thing. So if a 100 wRC+ guy is terrible....where are we drawing the line? I say he's fine because league average is just that....fine. He's not Austin Hedges, Austin Nola or any one of dozens of actually *bad" hitters. No, but he's a full time, starting center fielder, not part time catcher. Another bad example on your part. That's what's dumb. You really have knack for making bad comparisons to try to prove your point. His performance at the plate sucks for all to see. If his performance at the plate gets someone to call him average, then yeah, average really sucks. Of course it's a Grisham thing, AND a league thing. It's simply a VERY low bar. League average sucks. If a classroom of students average grades on a test throughout the year is 50 percent, does that make them good students? Heck no. They are still sucking in the classroom. It's really not that difficult, for most. I understand how they calculate that stat. It makes zero difference in the outcome being that the average hitter in baseball, is really below average, especially when a guy strikes out as much as Grisham and does not put the ball in play NEARLY enough. No, you clearly don't. (Because there's no statistical refutation, just vague generalities in the typical mold of 98% of the posts you make) The average hitter is below average? Man, I'm getting dumber reading this stuff. Qualified center fielders with worse strikeout rates than Trent Grisham: Luis Robert, Mike Trout, Jack Suwinski, James Outman, Brandon Marsh, Joey Weimer. Suwinski is the only one with a higher walk rate than Grisham. It's like arguing both sides of a coin are tails. It's idiotic.
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Post by johneaztec on Jul 6, 2023 12:49:27 GMT -8
No, but he's a full time, starting center fielder, not part time catcher. Another bad example on your part. That's what's dumb. You really have knack for making bad comparisons to try to prove your point. His performance at the plate sucks for all to see. If his performance at the plate gets someone to call him average, then yeah, average really sucks. Of course it's a Grisham thing, AND a league thing. It's simply a VERY low bar. League average sucks. If a classroom of students average grades on a test throughout the year is 50 percent, does that make them good students? Heck no. They are still sucking in the classroom. It's really not that difficult, for most. I understand how they calculate that stat. It makes zero difference in the outcome being that the average hitter in baseball, is really below average, especially when a guy strikes out as much as Grisham and does not put the ball in play NEARLY enough. No, you clearly don't. (Because there's no statistical refutation, just vague generalities in the typical mold of 98% of the posts you make) The average hitter is below average? Man, I'm getting dumber reading this stuff. Qualified center fielders with worse strikeout rates than Trent Grisham: Luis Robert, Mike Trout, Jack Suwinski, James Outman, Brandon Marsh, Joey Weimer. Suwinski is the only one with a higher walk rate than Grisham. It's like arguing both sides of a coin are tails. It's idiotic. Here's what's idiotic. You trying to compare Trout and Roberts to Grisham. Mike Trout's power and Roberts, supercedes Grishams everything, in every way. You have a Grisham who has a horrible strike out rate, with just occasional power. For you to TRY and justify Grisham as being anything more than a below average hitter, is very dumb and non sensical. He does not do enough to overcome the suck factor like a Trout or Roberts, etc, does. It's incredible that I have to spell it out for you, although in hindsight, it's not. If you like a guy, you'll come up with some real doosies to try and help make ends meet. We're all used to it. So, not shocked.
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Post by aztecryan on Jul 6, 2023 12:53:51 GMT -8
No, you clearly don't. (Because there's no statistical refutation, just vague generalities in the typical mold of 98% of the posts you make) The average hitter is below average? Man, I'm getting dumber reading this stuff. Qualified center fielders with worse strikeout rates than Trent Grisham: Luis Robert, Mike Trout, Jack Suwinski, James Outman, Brandon Marsh, Joey Weimer. Suwinski is the only one with a higher walk rate than Grisham. It's like arguing both sides of a coin are tails. It's idiotic. Here's what's idiotic. You trying to compare Trout and Roberts to Grisham. Mike Trout's power and Roberts, supercedes Grishams everything, in every way. You have a Grisham who has a horrible strike out rate, with just occasional power. For you to TRY and justify Grisham as being anything more than a below average hitter, is very dumb and non sensical. He does not do enough to overcome the suck factor like a Trout or Roberts, etc, does. It's incredible that I have to spell it out for you, although in hindsight, it's not. If you like a guy, you'll come up with some real doosies to try and help make ends meet. We're all used to it. So, not shocked. Like I said, you can't argue it with stats. Some folks just don't get it and that's okay. I've said it repeatedly now: He's essentially a league average hitter (true) and that concept evades you. It's okay.
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Post by johneaztec on Jul 6, 2023 12:57:26 GMT -8
Here's what's idiotic. You trying to compare Trout and Roberts to Grisham. Mike Trout's power and Roberts, supercedes Grishams everything, in every way. You have a Grisham who has a horrible strike out rate, with just occasional power. For you to TRY and justify Grisham as being anything more than a below average hitter, is very dumb and non sensical. He does not do enough to overcome the suck factor like a Trout or Roberts, etc, does. It's incredible that I have to spell it out for you, although in hindsight, it's not. If you like a guy, you'll come up with some real doosies to try and help make ends meet. We're all used to it. So, not shocked. Like I said, you can't argue it with stats. Some folks just don't get it and that's okay. I've said it repeatedly now: He's essentially a league average hitter (true) and that concept evades you. It's okay. What evades you is the fact that you can't understand that being on an average scale can also mean, at times, that in reality, you actually suck. But, that's ok. Logic isn't for everyone. Talking about stats. The stats you're glossing over concerning Trout and Roberts, which HIGHLY supercede their strike outs, is mind boggling, but maybe not for you.
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Post by aardvark on Jul 6, 2023 13:11:10 GMT -8
Cronenworth's last 5 games, he is 6/15 with 3 doubles, 1 HR, and 7 RBI. With 2 walks and 2 K's.
This is the Cronenworth we need--line drives in the gaps, drive in runs. Keep the line moving.
Personally, I would rather have a Cronenworth who has at least twice as many doubles/triples than HR's.
I know it's been discussed previously, but he doesn't need to swing for the fences (nor does the rest of the team). The home runs will come, as there is already enough power in this lineup. But it seems the organization has no one who can get through to Cronenworth, or many of these guys.
Just put the damn ball in play.
OK, rant over.
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Post by aardvark on Jul 6, 2023 13:16:23 GMT -8
Very consistent. The only thing happening your end is the use of blinders the size of Secretariat's. Secretariat's blinkers weren't all that big.
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Post by johneaztec on Jul 6, 2023 13:17:31 GMT -8
Cronenworth's last 5 games, he is 6/15 with 3 doubles, 1 HR, and 7 RBI. With 2 walks and 2 K's. This is the Cronenworth we need--line drives in the gaps, drive in runs. Keep the line moving. Personally, I would rather have a Cronenworth who has at least twice as many doubles/triples than HR's. I know it's been discussed previously, but he doesn't need to swing for the fences (nor does the rest of the team). The home runs will come, as there is already enough power in this lineup. But it seems the organization has no one who can get through to Cronenworth, or many of these guys. Just put the damn ball in play. OK, rant over. Yes, I'm hoping this Cronenworth is the one we get going forward. Putting the play in play is crucial. It can accomplish many things.
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Post by johneaztec on Jul 6, 2023 13:18:08 GMT -8
Very consistent. The only thing happening your end is the use of blinders the size of Secretariat's. Secretariat's blinkers weren't all that big. You get my drift. He was a massive horse.
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Post by aardvark on Jul 6, 2023 13:37:31 GMT -8
Secretariat's blinkers weren't all that big. You get my drift. He was a massive horse. Yes, he was a bigger thoroughbred, but his heart was almost 3 times the size of a normal thoroughbred. Chic Anderson was right in calling Secretariat "...a tremendous machine." He was. Now back to the trials and tribulations of Grisham, and others.
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Post by johneaztec on Jul 6, 2023 13:41:49 GMT -8
You get my drift. He was a massive horse. Yes, he was a bigger thoroughbred, but his heart was almost 3 times the size of a normal thoroughbred. Chic Anderson was right in calling Secretariat "...a tremendous machine." He was. Now back to the trials and tribulations of Grisham, and others. Yep, he had heart and girth. Great movie about him. Same ol' trials for Grisham dating back to last year, and a glimmer of hope for Croney.
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Post by The Aztec Panther on Jul 6, 2023 16:42:56 GMT -8
Grisham sucks. Period. He's a huge liability. He doesn't score, and he doesn't drive in runs. He's a waste of a roster space. We need someone who can score more and drive in more runs.
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Post by aztecryan on Jul 6, 2023 16:45:35 GMT -8
Cronenworth's last 5 games, he is 6/15 with 3 doubles, 1 HR, and 7 RBI. With 2 walks and 2 K's. This is the Cronenworth we need--line drives in the gaps, drive in runs. Keep the line moving. Personally, I would rather have a Cronenworth who has at least twice as many doubles/triples than HR's. I know it's been discussed previously, but he doesn't need to swing for the fences (nor does the rest of the team). The home runs will come, as there is already enough power in this lineup. But it seems the organization has no one who can get through to Cronenworth, or many of these guys. Just put the damn ball in play. OK, rant over. He's the exact type of guy who should be a gap-to-gap hitter and not be trying to launch balls into the fourth row.
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Post by aztecryan on Jul 6, 2023 16:47:25 GMT -8
Grisham sucks. Period. He's a huge liability. He doesn't score, and he doesn't drive in runs. He's a waste of a roster space. We need someone who can score more and drive in more runs. How is him not scoring more runs his fault? Is he supposed to drive himself in?
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