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Post by sdcoug on Jun 9, 2015 8:38:52 GMT -8
Believe he and some other quality guys did not make the team . Any word if he is playing more AAU ball this summer ? Aztecs have not done a good job of recruiting , thus developing " bigs" even M. Thomas was a transfer . Also the system seems to have the 5/C used more of a ball screener then integrated shooting part of the offense . or the Fisher wants a shot blocker /defender . What comes first chicken or the egg? Is it Spencer/Chol not being more involved in the offense , because of the style of play ,or poor hands , below average FT ..., not being able to finish ? The taller recruits watch the way we play ,use our 5 or do not, and then other schools and select other schools that do a better job . Zags for instance . Will we see more from Spencer/Chol and the offense this year ? If we sign Narain and another big say Cage , Kone or Humphries , Stanback ..... will things change for the 5/C position ? Chol's is used more offensively than Tarczewski is used at UA when on the court (20.8% vs. 17.8%) and nearly as much as Poertl at Utah; Sky is a defensive force. Both are equally effective & important, with different strengths. Sky would have more opportunities if he wasn't afraid to go to the line. It's about skill set. Recruits get that. Narain got it. If we recruited a kid who did nothing buy block shots and grab boards in this class that'd be fine.
BTW, curious, now that Narain, Cage, etc. don't fall anywhere within ESPN's "top 50" and therefore (per you) can't get us to the S16, should we back off? Or Bailey, since he's now at 75? <Sarcasm>
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Post by thepapacy on Jun 9, 2015 12:02:14 GMT -8
^^ I just find it amusing how so many fans want to judge recruits and players based solely on 10 theoretical minutes of play in one game years in the future.
Sweet 16 loss? Eh, mediocre plateau player/recruit who can't get us to our best season in history.
Sweet 16 win? Program changing recruit/player who is the best to ever step foot on the Mesa.
Just the sheer notion of it all is ridiculous to me. The outcome of one theoretical, future game has much more to do with matchups, team chemistry, etc. than it does with recruiting a top 50 vs. a top 150.
THE ONLY exceptions are obvious one and done type players that can single handedly win a game against good competition. We don't get obvious one and done type players who can single handedly win a game against good competition - the closest so far has been Malik, and it was (only?) bc of his injury history.
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Post by ignoranus on Jun 9, 2015 12:14:08 GMT -8
When Malcolm was a junior I watched the team clear out one side so that he could take Utah's 7+ foot center to the rack. He scored 28 points that night. That, IMO, shows that the Aztec coaches can run an offense for their center IF he can handle his job in scoring.
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Post by standiego on Jun 9, 2015 12:17:47 GMT -8
personally I prefer guys similar to Narain and Bailey , that are athletic and can use their skills to' score the basketball' as coach Fisher usually says . Doug sure seems that you prefer the 3 point shooter . I would hope the Aztecs can sign both the guys . to go with Zylan , JH , Kell plus at least another quality C/PF , or two and maybe a guard . Quality over quantity for both HS recruits and transfers .
Be it our style of offense or the guys that we can actually sign . Since M. Thomas we have not had a C/5 that can play D and score fairly consistently . There are not that many of them and for the most part are going to schools that have a reputation for using them often in the offense and then getting them toward the NBA . We do not seem to have that track record . It could change , maybe even this year , with a different slant on the offense and Spencer/ Chol knowing this is their last year and want to make it happen for them and the team . Believe we will also more offense from the centers at Arizona and Utah this year.
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Post by sdcoug on Jun 9, 2015 12:27:37 GMT -8
personally I prefer guys similar to Narain and Bailey , that are athletic and can use their skills to' score the basketball' as coach Fisher usually says . Doug sure seems that you prefer the 3 point shooter . I would hope the Aztecs can sign both the guys . to go with Zylan , JH , Kell plus at least another quality C/PF , or two and maybe a guard . Quality over quantity for both HS recruits and transfers . Be it our style of offense or the guys that we can actually sign . Since M. Thomas we have not had a C/5 that can play D and score fairly consistently . There are not that many of them and for the most part are going to schools that have a reputation for using them often in the offense and then getting them toward the NBA . We do not seem to have that track record . It could change , maybe even this year , with a different slant on the offense and Spencer/ Chol knowing this is their last year and want to make it happen for them and the team . Believe we will also more offense from the centers at Arizona and Utah this year. Who's Doug?
And since when doesn't a 3 point shot count as 3 points? Last I checked those counted as "scoring" just as much as scoring 2.
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Post by sdcoug on Jun 9, 2015 12:35:33 GMT -8
^^ I just find it amusing how so many fans want to judge recruits and players based solely on 10 theoretical minutes of play in one game years in the future. Sweet 16 loss? Eh, mediocre plateau player/recruit who can't get us to our best season in history. Sweet 16 win? Program changing recruit/player who is the best to ever step foot on the Mesa. Just the sheer notion of it all is ridiculous to me. The outcome of one theoretical, future game has much more to do with matchups, team chemistry, etc. than it does with recruiting a top 50 vs. a top 150.
THE ONLY exceptions are obvious one and done type players that can single handedly win a game against good competition. We don't get obvious one and done type players who can single handedly win a game against good competition - the closest so far has been Malik, and it was (only?) bc of his injury history. Exactly. It's about experience & getting players to play well together, and then getting lucky & not having a team who you match up really poorly with AND who doesn't get red hot come tourney time. Even then, look at UConn. How close were we to advancing then, or even with a team that had a 3-star PG as our primary go-to guy a couple years ago?
If Cage committed when he was ranked in the 30's and signed when now ranked in the 80's does that make him a worse recruit? NO. The coaches see the potential in players who fit their system AND see the roles they can play moving forward.
I find the obsession rankings to be amusing as well. Yes, good to have sought after players, but very little difference between a sought after player ranked 50 & 100, and the same between a player ranked 100 & 135. Extremely arbitrary and, as seen in the latest rankings, can vary substantially from month to month, never mind year to year. What's more important is their drive & ability & willingness to be coached to reach their upside. I'll take a raw kid ranked 125 out of HS who evolves as a Soph/Junior over a top 50 kid who doesn't ANY day.
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Post by standiego on Jun 9, 2015 13:29:28 GMT -8
believe when Fisher and the staff were asked if they would recruit guys , who many guess could be one and done ( and most likely rated in the top 25 for recruits ) their answer was, Of Course we would , why wouldn't we ? Aztec coaches are out there trying to recruit the best players they can, from the best player in the country to others that they see as valuable to the team . The coaches determine their own opinions of the kids and of course are evaluating guys when they are in their first years of HS. But the coaches also have said that guys need to play D and not every player is going to do that , "not every recruit is an Aztec recruit." So the coaches evaluate HS players and then make decisions of who they are trying to recruit , especially after they get the feed back from HS players if they are actually thinking about the Aztecs . The players have the leverage and some do not consider the Aztecs on their wish list of schools .
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Post by sdcoug on Jun 9, 2015 13:45:39 GMT -8
believe when Fisher and the staff were asked if they would recruit guys , who many guess could be one and done ( and most likely rated in the top 25 for recruits ) their answer was, Of Course we would , why wouldn't we ? Aztec coaches are out there trying to recruit the best players they can, from the best player in the country to others that they see as valuable to the team . The coaches determine their own opinions of the kids and of course are evaluating guys when they are in their first years of HS. But the coaches also have said that guys need to play D and not every player is going to do that , "not every recruit is an Aztec recruit." So the coaches evaluate HS players and then make decisions of who they are trying to recruit , especially after they get the feed back from HS players if they are actually thinking about the Aztecs . The players have the leverage and some do not consider the Aztecs on their wish list of schools .No kidding. But you can apply that statement to 330+ different D1 programs as well. We are MUCH MORE appealing than the majority of programs, yet getting a top 50 recruit does not dictate whether we are or will be successful moving forward. We have a very strong nucleus of HIGHLY regarded players on this roster, and continue to add more every single year.
You keep referring to not every top player is going to play D & preferring offensive minded programs. Are you implying we should change our philosophy and not be a defensive-focused team? That's a whole different thread than recruiting...
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Post by Gundo on Jun 9, 2015 15:07:03 GMT -8
What a difference a day makes, the newest Scout.com ranking has Narain as ranked #34 in the nation in the 2016 class. Bailey is ranked #36. In today's new ESPN ranking, Narain doesn't make the top 100, and on ESPN Cage falls to #80 and Brendan Bailey is at #75.
So much for the rankings. I don't think ESPN knows that there are players west of EST.
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Post by Frantic on Jun 9, 2015 15:27:50 GMT -8
What a difference a day makes, the newest Scout.com ranking has Narain as ranked #34 in the nation in the 2016 class. Bailey is ranked #36. In today's new ESPN ranking, Narain doesn't make the top 100, and on ESPN Cage falls to #80 and Brendan Bailey is at #75. So much for the rankings. I don't think ESPN knows that there are players west of EST. TJ Leaf is the 9th best player for 2016? Wow. For San Diego kids, I believe 9th in the country is second only to Chuckles Budinger. espn.go.com/college-sports/basketball/recruiting/playerrankingsPS, Cage, Vance Jackson and Bailey would make a national-caliber class.
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Post by missiontrails on Jun 9, 2015 15:36:24 GMT -8
What a difference a day makes, the newest Scout.com ranking has Narain as ranked #34 in the nation in the 2016 class. Bailey is ranked #36. In today's new ESPN ranking, Narain doesn't make the top 100, and on ESPN Cage falls to #80 and Brendan Bailey is at #75. So much for the rankings. I don't think ESPN knows that there are players west of EST. TJ Leaf is the 9th best player for 2016? Wow. For San Diego kids, I believe 9th in the country is second only to Chuckles Budinger. espn.go.com/college-sports/basketball/recruiting/playerrankingsPS, Narain + Cage, Vance Jackson and Bailey would make a national-caliber class. Don't forget that Tyler kid who left HS early for Israel a few years ago.
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Post by Frantic on Jun 9, 2015 15:41:48 GMT -8
Don't forget that Tyler kid who left HS early for Israel a few years ago. Yes, forgot about him! Strange, Tyler doesn't show up on the recruiting rankings. Maybe it's because he skipped his senior year in HS?
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Post by sdcoug on Jun 9, 2015 15:58:41 GMT -8
What a difference a day makes, the newest Scout.com ranking has Narain as ranked #34 in the nation in the 2016 class. Bailey is ranked #36. In today's new ESPN ranking, Narain doesn't make the top 100, and on ESPN Cage falls to #80 and Brendan Bailey is at #75. So much for the rankings. I don't think ESPN knows that there are players west of EST. And Scout is pretty lowly perceived out East.
It just goes to show how subjective the ratings are PERIOD. The 5-stars are pretty universal, but the difference in PERSPECTIVE between a 4 and a 3-star player varies, and dependent on who's attending the various events. There are a lot of decent 2-stars who didn't play the shoe circuit who ended up being pretty good college players, and I've seen S16 teams which consisted of only 1 3-star or higher rated HS player within their entire rotation.
Reality is Narain, Cage & Bailey could fall anywhere from 50-150 depending on who sees them & when/where they're playing. Getting a kid ranked 40th vs. 80th is irrelevant for the most part, or even 80th & 110th. What's relevant is how well he fits & develops within the system.
Our program is to the point the coaches rarely offer fringe players. They only offer kids who they believe can play at this level, and play well. We can be relatively picky, unlike a Fresno or even a New Mex. So if ANY of the kids offered come here we're in pretty good shape whether that's Cage, Kone, Stanback or whoever else is on their radar.
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Post by jdaztec on Jun 9, 2015 19:35:23 GMT -8
Seems like every couple years there is a SD High school kid who is a top 20 rated player. One of these games we will get one...
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Post by missiontrails on Jun 9, 2015 21:25:51 GMT -8
Don't forget that Tyler kid who left HS early for Israel a few years ago. Yes, forgot about him! Strange, Tyler doesn't show up on the recruiting rankings. Maybe it's because he skipped his senior year in HS? But he was rated way up there his junior year, just like your example TJ Leaf, who is a junior. ;-)
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Post by Frantic on Jun 10, 2015 4:43:04 GMT -8
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Post by mySTRAS on Jun 10, 2015 6:02:30 GMT -8
Some interesting names on that ESPN Top 100 list: # 34 - Roscoe Smith (Connecticut) # 69 - Bryce Jones (USC) # 91 - Daniel Bejarano (Arizona) # 92 - James Johnson (Virginia) # 99 - Alex Kirk (UNM)
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Post by standiego on Jun 10, 2015 8:34:56 GMT -8
What I am said is that we are a school noted for D . Players and coaches will say if you do not play D , your PT could be limited . If you are a recruit that sees that as a problem then you could decide to look at other schools . Aztec Coaches have said not every HS recruit fits the Aztec system . HS recruits also look at the style of basketball you play to see if it is a fit for their game for both offense ( style that most look at first ) and also the D . The Aztecs coaches do attempt to recruit the One and Done . Also IMO , for the most part ,you do need at least one or two high quality rated HS players to get to the E8 level , a level I believe the coaches are striving to reach . K. Leonard was a highly rated player , top 50 , with a high ceiling another attribute Aztec coaches look for . Malik was a highly rated recruit who may have been even higher if he had not gotten injured twice during HS . He did not play here at first do to injury then , spent a lot of time working on his Defense to get more PT. Malik went to visit Kansas with Oubre (sp) and Kansas went with Oubre , who is now a One and Done . We have Malik here this year .
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Post by sdcoug on Jun 10, 2015 8:36:42 GMT -8
As Freshmen I remember Tyler & Josh Smith were ranked 1-2, going back & forth over the next year or so.
I can also say I've never seen 2 lazier ball players on the court in HS, which is one reason Josh dropped dramatically and ended up being a bust (for the most part) in college. I'm sure that didn't help Tyler either.
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Post by sdcoug on Jun 10, 2015 9:09:40 GMT -8
What I am said is that we are a school noted for D . Players and coaches will say if you do not play D , your PT could be limited . If you are a recruit that sees that as a problem then you could decide to look at other schools . Aztec Coaches have said not every HS recruit fits the Aztec system . HS recruits also look at the style of basketball you play to see if it is a fit for their game for both offense ( style that most look at first ) and also the D . The Aztecs coaches do attempt to recruit the One and Done . Also IMO , for the most part , you do need at least one or two high quality rated HS players to get to the E8 level , a level I believe the coaches are striving to reach . K. Leonard was a highly rated player , top 50 , with a high ceiling another attribute Aztec coaches look for . Malik was a highly rated recruit who may have been even higher if he had not gotten injured twice during HS . He did not play here at first do to injury then , spent a lot of time working on his Defense to get more PT. Malik went to visit Kansas with Oubre (sp) and Kansas went with Oubre , who is now a One and Done . We have Malik here this year . Yes you do need "high quality" players - that's a given, and you look at ceiling and coach-ability. NONE of those are defined by "top 50".
So you're saying if we get Narain, Cage & Bailey to go with Kell, Hemsley & Zylan we have no shot at a E8 in a couple years, since none are "top 50"? Top 50 is an arbitrary #, and the rankings are extremely subjective. You want "quality players" - we HAVE quality players, all the way up & down our bench. When was the last time we added a player to our roster who wasn't "quality"? James Johnson (yet he was "top 100" so by definition he MUST be good, right)?
You recruit to who fits your system & their upside, which is what the staff does and does well. If you're defining success by getting a player ranked in the top 50 in HS you're limiting yourself & setting yourself up for disappointment. Plus, who's top 50 varies from month to month, year to year, as we just saw with ESPN.
You definitely want "high quality" but here's where we disagree. You define that based on a ranking put on by them by a few guys, while I define them by their upside & fit with the program. To me Max is "high quality" based on what I've seen, but we won't know for 2 years. You can have a kid "ranked" 125 who's a better recruit for your program than someone ranked 60 IMO. Ultimately the goal is to have kids who by their Soph/Junior year most programs would love to have. I'll take a raw Skyler Spencer who develops over a James Johnson who was highly sought after in HS and ranked higher. We're doing that.
Any time you have 4+ openings in a class it's a BIG recruiting year and I do agree with you 2016 is a BIG recruiting year. But I've seen nothing to think we're not doing well, and I'm not going to define the class based on whether or not we get a "top 50" recruit.
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