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Post by aztecryan on Jul 28, 2024 12:04:41 GMT -8
It's not about finding it "disturbing" - It's about reality vs. whatever you're trying to create here. Trump is fundraising off dead bodies. That's what I care about. I am not trying to create anything, Ryan. My purpose in posting in this thread is to comment on how serious a threat to our country the assassination of the GOP candidate would have been. What does bother me is that you appear incapable of understanding how much worse off our politics would have been had Trump been killed or so badly wounded that he would have had to withdraw. And I say that even though I intend to not vote for Trump.
I do not for a minute condemn your attitude of Trump's activities since the assassination attempt, however. That is fair game.
AzWm
Because....wait for it, he's....fine. He was barely injured. I don't care about hypotheticals at this point, the same way you casually dismiss Trump's speeches as just joking around, hyperbole, impossible to institute, etc.
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Post by aztecryan on Jul 28, 2024 12:09:38 GMT -8
Will you confront the reality that you blamed the "left" and have never adjusted for that? It's ironic that you are critical of people downplaying THIS when all you've done is downplay Trump's endangerment of the country. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I do not think that I accused the Left of causing the assassination attempt. What I said was that constant over the top attacks on Trump (he's a threat to Democracy, he's Hitler, etc.) might, repeat might, cause some nut-case with a gun to attempt to rid this country of so great a threat to domestic peace and tranquility. Might the same be said for language aimed at Democrats? Possibly. In any case, in the 72 years that I have been observing the political scene, I have never, ever seen such intemperate language aimed at opponents.
With respect to Trump's supposed endangerment to this country, this quote may be of interest:
To cast Trump in the mold of Hitler both misreads the history of totalitarianism and deflects the fact that for the foreseeable future the left actually has much more influence than the right over the institutions necessary to create a credible fascism.
www.al.com/opinion/2024/07/playing-the-hitler-card-and-misreading-history-op-ed.html
AzWmUh, you IMMEDIATELY used the word "Left" after the event happened and blamed their rhetoric of Hitler comparisons as a root cause. We don't have to search very far to find that. To dismiss it now shows me you have an agenda. That's unfortunate. You apparently don't learn anything, for someone with so much vast life experience here. It's stunning to see a lack of willingness to adjust to a political reality here. Were you alive during the Red Scare? That's just one example off the top of my head, without even thinking too hard. I don't care at all about any opinion article that you're going to share to again dismiss what the man has ALREADY SAID TO US. To our faces. In multiple speeches. In campaign events. I believe reality. You should, too.
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Post by aztecryan on Jul 28, 2024 12:27:31 GMT -8
Will you confront the reality that you blamed the "left" and have never adjusted for that? It's ironic that you are critical of people downplaying THIS when all you've done is downplay Trump's endangerment of the country. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I do not think that I accused the Left of causing the assassination attempt. What I said was that constant over the top attacks on Trump (he's a threat to Democracy, he's Hitler, etc.) might, repeat might, cause some nut-case with a gun to attempt to rid this country of so great a threat to domestic peace and tranquility. Might the same be said for language aimed at Democrats? Possibly. In any case, in the 72 years that I have been observing the political scene, I have never, ever seen such intemperate language aimed at opponents.
With respect to Trump's supposed endangerment to this country, this quote may be of interest:
To cast Trump in the mold of Hitler both misreads the history of totalitarianism and deflects the fact that for the foreseeable future the left actually has much more influence than the right over the institutions necessary to create a credible fascism.
www.al.com/opinion/2024/07/playing-the-hitler-card-and-misreading-history-op-ed.html
AzWmHere's just one problem with this logic, of which there are many: History evolves. Society evolves. Methodologies evolve. Motives and operations evolve. What does that mean? It means that just because Trump isn't going to execute Jews in the streets or send them to Auschwitz doesn't absolve him of the greater dictatorial archetypes he evokes. Mass deportations? You think that's going to be a clean, comprehensive and civil process? What happened to protections under the Constitution? The same document Trump's threatened to terminate, mind you. But I guess he's joking? Trump has said repeatedly he will not accept the results of the election, just as before. Except now he has a Supreme Court that has allowed him to skirt the coattails of justice and evade accountability. Where does pending litigation at the federal level end up? At the feet of Roberts, Thomas, Alito, Barrett, Gorsuch and Kavanagh. But no, that can never happen here, this is America....except it just did three years ago, in an event you'd likely wish we would forget. Let me remind you that this wasn't just a mild concern about voter fraud or illegitimacy, Mike Pence was instructed to plainly throw out votes and declare Trump the winner. If we are obsessing about hypotheticals, maybe you should worry about that one. But I guess he's just lying? Food for thought.
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Post by bnastyaztecs on Jul 29, 2024 9:15:51 GMT -8
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Post by AztecWilliam on Jul 30, 2024 12:31:33 GMT -8
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I do not think that I accused the Left of causing the assassination attempt. What I said was that constant over the top attacks on Trump (he's a threat to Democracy, he's Hitler, etc.) might, repeat might, cause some nut-case with a gun to attempt to rid this country of so great a threat to domestic peace and tranquility. Might the same be said for language aimed at Democrats? Possibly. In any case, in the 72 years that I have been observing the political scene, I have never, ever seen such intemperate language aimed at opponents.
With respect to Trump's supposed endangerment to this country, this quote may be of interest:
To cast Trump in the mold of Hitler both misreads the history of totalitarianism and deflects the fact that for the foreseeable future the left actually has much more influence than the right over the institutions necessary to create a credible fascism.
www.al.com/opinion/2024/07/playing-the-hitler-card-and-misreading-history-op-ed.html
AzWm Here's just one problem with this logic, of which there are many: History evolves. Society evolves. Methodologies evolve. Motives and operations evolve. What does that mean? It means that just because Trump isn't going to execute Jews in the streets or send them to Auschwitz doesn't absolve him of the greater dictatorial archetypes he evokes. Mass deportations? You think that's going to be a clean, comprehensive and civil process? What happened to protections under the Constitution? The same document Trump's threatened to terminate, mind you. But I guess he's joking? Trump has said repeatedly he will not accept the results of the election, just as before. Except now he has a Supreme Court that has allowed him to skirt the coattails of justice and evade accountability. Where does pending litigation at the federal level end up? At the feet of Roberts, Thomas, Alito, Barrett, Gorsuch and Kavanagh. But no, that can never happen here, this is America....except it just did three years ago, in an event you'd likely wish we would forget. Let me remind you that this wasn't just a mild concern about voter fraud or illegitimacy, Mike Pence was instructed to plainly throw out votes and declare Trump the winner. If we are obsessing about hypotheticals, maybe you should worry about that one. But I guess he's just lying? Food for thought. This is not an attempt on my part to whitewash Trump's record. I am really, really tired of having other posters basically accusing me of saying something that I have not ever said. Again, I am opposed to Trump and, as I did in his other two races, I will not vote for him. What is so hard to understand about that?
Maybe my sin is that I will also not vote for the Democratic candidate. I guess my opposition to Trump is just not strong enough. Wait a minute. That makes no sense. I opposed Trump from the start and intend to vote against him again. I have declared that claiming to have won in 2020 is reason enough not to vote for him. Is that not enough anti-Trump for you?
Seriously, you need to read the article whose link I posted. www.al.com/opinion/2024/07/playing-the-hitler-card-and-misreading-history-op-ed.html Or, if you have read it, read it again.
AzWm
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Post by aztecryan on Jul 30, 2024 12:51:07 GMT -8
Here's just one problem with this logic, of which there are many: History evolves. Society evolves. Methodologies evolve. Motives and operations evolve. What does that mean? It means that just because Trump isn't going to execute Jews in the streets or send them to Auschwitz doesn't absolve him of the greater dictatorial archetypes he evokes. Mass deportations? You think that's going to be a clean, comprehensive and civil process? What happened to protections under the Constitution? The same document Trump's threatened to terminate, mind you. But I guess he's joking? Trump has said repeatedly he will not accept the results of the election, just as before. Except now he has a Supreme Court that has allowed him to skirt the coattails of justice and evade accountability. Where does pending litigation at the federal level end up? At the feet of Roberts, Thomas, Alito, Barrett, Gorsuch and Kavanagh. But no, that can never happen here, this is America....except it just did three years ago, in an event you'd likely wish we would forget. Let me remind you that this wasn't just a mild concern about voter fraud or illegitimacy, Mike Pence was instructed to plainly throw out votes and declare Trump the winner. If we are obsessing about hypotheticals, maybe you should worry about that one. But I guess he's just lying? Food for thought. This is not an attempt on my part to whitewash Trump's record. I am really, really tired of having other posters basically accusing me of saying something that I have not ever said. Again, I am opposed to Trump and, as I did in his other two races, I will not vote for him. What is so hard to understand about that?
Maybe my sin is that I will also not vote for the Democratic candidate. I guess my opposition to Trump is just not strong enough. Wait a minute. That makes no sense. I opposed Trump from the start and intend to vote against him again. I have declared that claiming to have won in 2020 is reason enough not to vote for him. Is that not enough anti-Trump for you?
Seriously, you need to read the article whose link I posted. www.al.com/opinion/2024/07/playing-the-hitler-card-and-misreading-history-op-ed.html Or, if you have read it, read it again.
AzWm If you're tired of it, then stop doing it. I don't care who you're voting for - You have routinely dismissed and excused the actions of Donald Trump. I read the article, I don't care. It's loaded on false premises.
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Post by aztecryan on Jul 30, 2024 12:51:54 GMT -8
Here's just one problem with this logic, of which there are many: History evolves. Society evolves. Methodologies evolve. Motives and operations evolve. What does that mean? It means that just because Trump isn't going to execute Jews in the streets or send them to Auschwitz doesn't absolve him of the greater dictatorial archetypes he evokes. Mass deportations? You think that's going to be a clean, comprehensive and civil process? What happened to protections under the Constitution? The same document Trump's threatened to terminate, mind you. But I guess he's joking? Trump has said repeatedly he will not accept the results of the election, just as before. Except now he has a Supreme Court that has allowed him to skirt the coattails of justice and evade accountability. Where does pending litigation at the federal level end up? At the feet of Roberts, Thomas, Alito, Barrett, Gorsuch and Kavanagh. But no, that can never happen here, this is America....except it just did three years ago, in an event you'd likely wish we would forget. Let me remind you that this wasn't just a mild concern about voter fraud or illegitimacy, Mike Pence was instructed to plainly throw out votes and declare Trump the winner. If we are obsessing about hypotheticals, maybe you should worry about that one. But I guess he's just lying? Food for thought. This is not an attempt on my part to whitewash Trump's record. I am really, really tired of having other posters basically accusing me of saying something that I have not ever said. Again, I am opposed to Trump and, as I did in his other two races, I will not vote for him. What is so hard to understand about that?
Maybe my sin is that I will also not vote for the Democratic candidate. I guess my opposition to Trump is just not strong enough. Wait a minute. That makes no sense. I opposed Trump from the start and intend to vote against him again. I have declared that claiming to have won in 2020 is reason enough not to vote for him. Is that not enough anti-Trump for you?
Seriously, you need to read the article whose link I posted. www.al.com/opinion/2024/07/playing-the-hitler-card-and-misreading-history-op-ed.html Or, if you have read it, read it again.
AzWm Is Donald Trump a threat to national security? Yes or no?
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Post by AztecWilliam on Jul 30, 2024 13:44:12 GMT -8
This is not an attempt on my part to whitewash Trump's record. I am really, really tired of having other posters basically accusing me of saying something that I have not ever said. Again, I am opposed to Trump and, as I did in his other two races, I will not vote for him. What is so hard to understand about that?
Maybe my sin is that I will also not vote for the Democratic candidate. I guess my opposition to Trump is just not strong enough. Wait a minute. That makes no sense. I opposed Trump from the start and intend to vote against him again. I have declared that claiming to have won in 2020 is reason enough not to vote for him. Is that not enough anti-Trump for you?
Seriously, you need to read the article whose link I posted.
www.al.com/opinion/2024/07/playing-the-hitler-card-and-misreading-history-op-ed.html
Or, if you have read it, read it again.
AzWm Is Donald Trump a threat to national security? Yes or no? If so, a very, very minor one for reasons that I have explained to you more than once. Reasons that you ignore. The linked piece explains why Trump, however his policies may be anathema to the Left, is in no position to take over the USA in the manner of Adolf Hitler. I can see why you dismiss the piece because of, if nothing else, this quote.
But then there is Adolf Hitler, the low-hanging fruit of psychotic illiberalism.
The author explains very succinctly why Trump cannot be a Hitler.
The less observed reality is American conservatives do not have the complex institutional control required to bring about a totalitarian government. The right does not come close to dominating the vast mechanisms of media, technology, education, and pop-culture, as well as legions of bureaucratic managers at the national, state, and local levels needed to achieve a one-party state.
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Smart leftists know the right does not have the institutional influence necessary to create the cultural conditions for totalitarianism.
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Perhaps the real fear is not a conservative dictatorship, but rather that large numbers of Americans because of their religious convictions, private wealth, choice in education, and commitment to merit and the free exchange of ideas impede their path to “total” cultural and political power. To cast Trump in the mold of Hitler both misreads the history of totalitarianism and deflects the fact that for the foreseeable future the left actually has much more influence than the right over the institutions necessary to create a credible fascism.
Your inability to recognize that democratic institutions in this country are far too strong to allow a President to become a Hitler makes me wonder about your ability to clearly understand today's political reality.
AzWm
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Post by aztecryan on Jul 30, 2024 13:50:42 GMT -8
Is Donald Trump a threat to national security? Yes or no? If so, a very, very minor one for reasons that I have explained to you more than once. Reasons that you ignore. The linked piece explains why Trump, however his policies may be anathema to the Left, is in no position to take over the USA in the manner of Adolf Hitler. I can see why you dismiss the piece because of, if nothing else, this quote.
But then there is Adolf Hitler, the low-hanging fruit of psychotic illiberalism.
The author explains very succinctly why Trump cannot be a Hitler.
The less observed reality is American conservatives do not have the complex institutional control required to bring about a totalitarian government. The right does not come close to dominating the vast mechanisms of media, technology, education, and pop-culture, as well as legions of bureaucratic managers at the national, state, and local levels needed to achieve a one-party state.
---------------
Smart leftists know the right does not have the institutional influence necessary to create the cultural conditions for totalitarianism.
--------------
Perhaps the real fear is not a conservative dictatorship, but rather that large numbers of Americans because of their religious convictions, private wealth, choice in education, and commitment to merit and the free exchange of ideas impede their path to “total” cultural and political power. To cast Trump in the mold of Hitler both misreads the history of totalitarianism and deflects the fact that for the foreseeable future the left actually has much more influence than the right over the institutions necessary to create a credible fascism.
Your inability to recognize that democratic institutions in this country are far too strong to allow a President to become a Hitler makes me wonder about your ability to clearly understand today's political reality.
AzWmYour inability to exercise common sense, as well.
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Post by AztecWilliam on Jul 30, 2024 15:59:48 GMT -8
If so, a very, very minor one for reasons that I have explained to you more than once. Reasons that you ignore. The linked piece explains why Trump, however his policies may be anathema to the Left, is in no position to take over the USA in the manner of Adolf Hitler. I can see why you dismiss the piece because of, if nothing else, this quote.
But then there is Adolf Hitler, the low-hanging fruit of psychotic illiberalism.
The author explains very succinctly why Trump cannot be a Hitler.
The less observed reality is American conservatives do not have the complex institutional control required to bring about a totalitarian government. The right does not come close to dominating the vast mechanisms of media, technology, education, and pop-culture, as well as legions of bureaucratic managers at the national, state, and local levels needed to achieve a one-party state.
---------------
Smart leftists know the right does not have the institutional influence necessary to create the cultural conditions for totalitarianism.
--------------
Perhaps the real fear is not a conservative dictatorship, but rather that large numbers of Americans because of their religious convictions, private wealth, choice in education, and commitment to merit and the free exchange of ideas impede their path to “total” cultural and political power. To cast Trump in the mold of Hitler both misreads the history of totalitarianism and deflects the fact that for the foreseeable future the left actually has much more influence than the right over the institutions necessary to create a credible fascism.
Your inability to recognize that democratic institutions in this country are far too strong to allow a President to become a Hitler makes me wonder about your ability to clearly understand today's political reality.
AzWm Your inability to exercise common sense, as well. I have suggested that democratic institutions in this country are far too strong to allow a President to become a Hitler. If you think that my statement is false, perhaps you would like to explain why you think that our democratic institutions are NOT strong enough to prevent Trump, or anyone else, from becoming a dictator in the Hitlerian style.
To suggest that Trump will become another Hitler is just lazy rhetoric. If he wins the election, this country will survive the next four years.
AzWm
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Post by aztecryan on Jul 30, 2024 16:12:26 GMT -8
Your inability to exercise common sense, as well. I have suggested that democratic institutions in this country are far too strong to allow a President to become a Hitler. If you think that my statement is false, perhaps you would like to explain why you think that our democratic institutions are NOT strong enough to prevent Trump, or anyone else, from becoming a dictator in the Hitlerian style.
To suggest that Trump will become another Hitler is just lazy rhetoric. If he wins the election, this country will survive the next four years.
AzWmAgain, not interested in your stretching of reality to protect Donald Trump. The laziness is found in these lame justifications. I've explained this already, it's up to you to come to grips with it. I don't have high hopes.
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Post by aztecryan on Jul 30, 2024 16:45:54 GMT -8
Your inability to exercise common sense, as well. I have suggested that democratic institutions in this country are far too strong to allow a President to become a Hitler. If you think that my statement is false, perhaps you would like to explain why you think that our democratic institutions are NOT strong enough to prevent Trump, or anyone else, from becoming a dictator in the Hitlerian style.
To suggest that Trump will become another Hitler is just lazy rhetoric. If he wins the election, this country will survive the next four years.
AzWmRather than trade barbs, here's the reality of what you're missing. What democratic institutions? Congress? Already been infiltrated by MAGA extremism in both bodies. It's how we got a corrupt Supreme Court. The Supreme Court? The same Supreme Court that said Trump is immune from prosecution because you can't use evidence of official acts to produce charges of unofficial acts? A former president...incited a coup. He'll face zero consequences. A former president.....stole classified intelligence from the White House and took it to his residence, where countless individuals had access to the storage area. He then lied about it, covered it up, defied a subpoena and covered it up again. He'll face...zero consequences for that. Zero. In fact, he might get the chance TO DO IT AGAIN. Mass deportations of immigrants? Check. Unitary authority under one branch? Check. Violations of the Constitution? Check. You are so caught up in meaningless, literal comparisons...it's mind boggling. Democracy dies in darkness, every single day, in a variety of ways. What happens when he loses, conservative states refuse to certify their ballots and chaos ensues? He's already said he won't accept the results of the election. Again, just because he won't outright kidnap, torture and murder civilians in broad daylight doesn't mean he doesn't represent a clear and present danger here.
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Post by aztecryan on Jul 31, 2024 7:27:02 GMT -8
Your inability to exercise common sense, as well. I have suggested that democratic institutions in this country are far too strong to allow a President to become a Hitler. If you think that my statement is false, perhaps you would like to explain why you think that our democratic institutions are NOT strong enough to prevent Trump, or anyone else, from becoming a dictator in the Hitlerian style.
To suggest that Trump will become another Hitler is just lazy rhetoric. If he wins the election, this country will survive the next four years.
AzWmRemind me again...The First Amendment covers what?
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Post by AztecWilliam on Jul 31, 2024 11:49:11 GMT -8
I'm done! Your lack of faith in America's citizens and institutions is mind-boggling.
AzWm
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Post by aztecryan on Jul 31, 2024 11:56:41 GMT -8
I'm done! Your lack of faith in America's citizens and institutions is mind-boggling.
AzWm Will you ever get to a point where you'll admit that's not the focus here? It's such a a lazy crutch that tells me you really can't argue the merits. Why?
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Post by AztecWilliam on Jul 31, 2024 12:58:47 GMT -8
I'm done! Your lack of faith in America's citizens and institutions is mind-boggling.
AzWm Will you ever get to a point where you'll admit that's not the focus here? It's such a a lazy crutch that tells me you really can't argue the merits. Why? Will you ever admit that circumstances in the USA in 2024 are VASTLY different from those in Germany in 1933? To suggest that Trump, or anyone else, might be able to overthrow the government as Hitler did 90 some years ago badly misunderstands the strong roots of democratic government here.
I have avoided saying this up until now, but this seems to be a good time to say it. It's pretty clear to me that when you say democratic government, you really mean Democratic government.
You were pretty young in 2008 or 2012, but what did you think of the pre-Trump Republican Party in those days? Just wondering.
AzWm
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Post by aztecryan on Jul 31, 2024 13:07:38 GMT -8
Will you ever get to a point where you'll admit that's not the focus here? It's such a a lazy crutch that tells me you really can't argue the merits. Why? Will you ever admit that circumstances in the USA in 2024 are VASTLY different from those in Germany in 1933? To suggest that Trump, or anyone else, might be able to overthrow the government as Hitler did 90 some years ago badly misunderstands the strong roots of democratic government here.
I have avoided saying this up until now, but this seems to be a good time to say it. It's pretty clear to me that when you say democratic government, you really mean Democratic government.
You were pretty young in 2008 or 2012, but what did you think of the pre-Trump Republican Party in those days? Just wondering.
AzWm
Again, you're using a logical fallacy/red herring to deflect from reality. Another meaningless, bad faith argument that gets us nowhere. And no, I mean democratic government. What an unserious individual you can be. Do you remember January 6th, 2021? Why does Donald Trump need to replace his former VP? Will you ever create a good faith argument that deals in facts? Or are you just more interested in meaningless, circular, illogical nonsense?
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Post by aztecryan on Jul 31, 2024 13:31:22 GMT -8
To clear this up: I understand history, especially European history...and especially World War II European history. The parallels between a post Von Hindenburg administration and Donald Trump aren't meant to be absorbed literally. Nobody is saying that a second Trump administration is going to end up with millions sent to the gas chambers, tortured, beaten, starved or enslaved. That. Is. Not. The. Point.
Hallmarks of democracy include things like civil rights. The mass deportation of "illegal aliens" (straight out of the German playbook, yes) is a logistical nightmare, guaranteed to violate an individual's civil rights. The Constitution uses the word "person" and not the word "citizen" on purpose, to prevent such a situation from occurring. Believe it or not, there is an easily found middle ground between complete insanity, mass extermination of entire ethnic groups and normal, boring, uneventful democracy.
William's lauding of America is wonderful. But it denies basic realities that need to be explained: There are DOZENS of candidates on the ballot in this election that are election deniers, conspiracy theorists and sycophants. These individuals have threatened to decertify valid ballots, overturn decades of historical precedent and envelop the country in a state of chaos...all in loyalty to Donald Trump.
That's before we even get started on Project 2025. So, yes, while America is different from the Third Reich....the general hallmarks of anti-democratic behavior still exist, in a multitude of forms, throughout the country.
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Post by aztecryan on Sept 9, 2024 21:15:15 GMT -8
So this has turned into a whole lot of silence. Barely even talked about, even though it happened less than two months ago.
Very, very strange.
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Post by johneaztec on Sept 9, 2024 21:44:11 GMT -8
So this has turned into a whole lot of silence. Barely even talked about, even though it happened less than two months ago. Very, very strange. Moving on. Biden dropping out was also an unprecedented event that happened shortly after. That took focus away. Also, there's the fact that more than 50 percent of the population that doesn't want to give him Press. There's a very important election coming up. Back to Business.
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