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Post by 84aztec96 on Jul 23, 2022 9:13:57 GMT -8
I can see how someone like me that is against vaccine mandates (which looks like I was right to be against) but for limiting abortion would look hypocritical. However, the problem is we have another human body involved. There are now two individual bodies involved in pregnancy and abortion. So, what you're basically saying is this - you don't want people telling you what to do and how to live, but you want to be able to tell people what to do and how to live. Is that really what you are hearing? I'm saying the reality is, two human beings are involved with pregnancy and abortion. The individual Mom and the individual unborn human being. You have two bodies, not one. |
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Post by The Aztec Panther on Jul 23, 2022 11:15:29 GMT -8
So, what you're basically saying is this - you don't want people telling you what to do and how to live, but you want to be able to tell people what to do and how to live. Is that really what you are hearing? I'm saying the reality is, two human beings are involved with pregnancy and abortion. The individual Mom and the individual unborn human being. You have two bodies, not one. ONLY after several months of gestation. What makes us truly human is our brains. Until that brain is developed and consciousness and self awareness is achieved, that isn't a human being. And there are a ton of things that come up, too, where it's not all black and white. Medical issues that threaten the life of the mother for one thing... |
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Post by 84aztec96 on Jul 23, 2022 11:46:41 GMT -8
I don't think that is true, and that is the crux of the problem.
I think saying you are not a human being until...whatever...is fairly arbitrary. When two human beings reproduce they create another being like themselves. We know this. We know that human beings develop a certain way, but they don't change into a different type being. In fact, the unborn will function like an adult human being (if given the chance) because that is the type of being it already is.
You were a human being at conception and you will remain one until death. Even though your function will change over time. Your function got better as you grew and then got worse (or will get worse) as you age. But you won't stop being human.
I agree, making abortion illegal would bring up a lot of messy, more gray situations, some of which I'm not sure how to handle. But we are aborting about 900,000 unique individuals a year in the US. It's insane.
EDIT: Abortion to save the life of the mother makes perfect sense, but there are other situations that are more difficult.
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Post by The Aztec Panther on Jul 23, 2022 12:40:08 GMT -8
I don't think that is true, and that is the crux of the problem. I think saying you are not a human being until...whatever...is fairly arbitrary. When two human beings reproduce they create another being like themselves. We know this. We know that human beings develop a certain way, but they don't change into a different type being. In fact, the unborn will function like an adult human being (if given the chance) because that is the type of being it already is. You were a human being at conception and you will remain one until death. Even though your function will change over time. Your function got better as you grew and then got worse (or will get worse) as you age. But you won't stop being human. I agree, making abortion illegal would bring up a lot of messy, more gray situations, some of which I'm not sure how to handle. But we are aborting about 900,000 unique individuals a year in the US. It's insane. EDIT: Abortion to save the life of the mother makes perfect sense, but there are other situations that are more difficult. Your entire argument is blown up by this simple fact... We let people die when they're brain dead. When the brain doesn't function, the PERSON is dead. You can keep the body alive with mechanical means, but the person is dead. By the same token, the PERSON isn't alive until they have achieved consciousness and self awareness. Your view is not the, "Correct," view - just your opinion. So if you believe that your opinion is the one that law should be based on, then, yes, my initial post to you is accurate. You don't want people telling you what to do or how to live, but you have no problem telling others what to do or how to live, even if they have a real fundamental difference of opinion with you on the issue. |
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Post by johneaztec on Jul 23, 2022 12:40:42 GMT -8
Is that really what you are hearing? I'm saying the reality is, two human beings are involved with pregnancy and abortion. The individual Mom and the individual unborn human being. You have two bodies, not one. ONLY after several months of gestation. What makes us truly human is our brains. Until that brain is developed and consciousness and self awareness is achieved, that isn't a human being. And there are a ton of things that come up, too, where it's not all black and white. Medical issues that threaten the life of the mother for one thing... So, people that are born with such a disability that makes them unable to be aware of their surroundings, etc, are not human beings?? |
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Post by The Aztec Panther on Jul 23, 2022 12:47:26 GMT -8
ONLY after several months of gestation. What makes us truly human is our brains. Until that brain is developed and consciousness and self awareness is achieved, that isn't a human being. And there are a ton of things that come up, too, where it's not all black and white. Medical issues that threaten the life of the mother for one thing... So, people that are born with such a disability that makes them unable to be aware of their surroundings, etc, are not human beings?? I'm not talking about people who are blind or deaf, but can still think and be aware of things touching them, etc. I'm talking about a fetus that is all autonomic responses and no higher brain function. It is that higher brain function that makes someone a person. Being aware, able to think, able to feel emotion, etc. Until that is developed it isn't a person. As I noted above, we let people who are brain dead die because the PERSON is already dead. |
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Post by 84aztec96 on Jul 23, 2022 13:00:03 GMT -8
In your brain dead example, if that person's brain would begin to function again, would you kill him or her?
EDIT: Abortion doesn't "let people die" it actively takes their life.
The unborn are not brain dead, they are functioning correctly for that stage of development.
The unborn are obviously ALIVE. Abortion is the means we use to stop the unborn from living.
No, my view isn't merely an opinion. It's based on reality. There are two individuals involved in pregnancy and abortion.
Is your view just an opinion?
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Post by uwphoto on Jul 23, 2022 13:12:25 GMT -8
In your brain dead example, if that person's brain would begin to function again, would you kill him or her? The unborn are not brain dead, they are functioning correctly for that stage of development. The unborn are obviously ALIVE. Abortion is the means we use to stop the unborn from living. No, my view isn't merely an opinion. It's based on reality. There are two individuals involved in pregnancy and abortion. Is your view just an opinion? Cut to the chase..women who get an abortion = death penalty? If not what's the penalty. Freshman girl at frat party gets drunk or roofied, gets gang banged by 6 guys..does she get one or not? |
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Post by 84aztec96 on Jul 23, 2022 13:27:31 GMT -8
Fair enough. As far as penalties, I don't know. It's a mess. The whole thing is a mess.
Exceptions, like for life of the mother are clear. Exceptions for rape (very understandable) and I think I can make a reasonable argument for the exception for rape even though the unborn are human. And just so we are clear, I know of an individual who was conceived by rape. His Mom gave birth to him. He is adopted and doing real well. But yeah, that is a horrible situation.
Just to be clear, I don't think being pregnant is easy, or "nothing". There are health risks. It's serious.
But fortunately or unfortunately, when you create another human being, responsibilities kick in. For the Mom and the Dad.
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Post by uwphoto on Jul 23, 2022 13:57:17 GMT -8
Fair enough. As far as penalties, I don't know. It's a mess. The whole thing is a mess. Exceptions, like for life of the mother are clear. Exceptions for rape (very understandable) and I think I can make a reasonable argument for the exception for rape even though the unborn are human. And just so we are clear, I know of an individual who was conceived by rape. His Mom gave birth to him. He is adopted and doing real well. But yeah, that is a horrible situation. Just to be clear, I don't think being pregnant is easy, or "nothing". There are health risks. It's serious. But fortunately or unfortunately, when you create another human being, responsibilities kick in. For the Mom and the Dad. OK...you sound reasonable to me...I just had to check you out to see where you are coming from. |
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Post by The Aztec Panther on Jul 23, 2022 14:14:35 GMT -8
In your brain dead example, if that person's brain would begin to function again, would you kill him or her? EDIT: Abortion doesn't "let people die" it actively takes their life. The unborn are not brain dead, they are functioning correctly for that stage of development. The unborn are obviously ALIVE. Abortion is the means we use to stop the unborn from living. No, my view isn't merely an opinion. It's based on reality. There are two individuals involved in pregnancy and abortion. Is your view just an opinion? It is. One shared by many. The majority in this country support legal abortion. Democracy requires that the view of the majority in this case be supported - but it's not. It's being overridden by the minority. And, here's the thing, yes the fetus is, "Alive," but it is not yet a person. That IS a fact. It has the potential to become a person, but a lot of things could still happen to prevent that beyond abortion. Secondarily, most abortions are done within the first 4 months of pregnancy, so it clearly isn't a baby as such. My view is the rights of the mother supercede the rights of an undeveloped potential person. |
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Post by aztecryan on Jul 23, 2022 14:34:37 GMT -8
In your brain dead example, if that person's brain would begin to function again, would you kill him or her? EDIT: Abortion doesn't "let people die" it actively takes their life. The unborn are not brain dead, they are functioning correctly for that stage of development. The unborn are obviously ALIVE. Abortion is the means we use to stop the unborn from living. No, my view isn't merely an opinion. It's based on reality. There are two individuals involved in pregnancy and abortion. Is your view just an opinion? Once your brain stops regulating, it's dead. It's not coming back. That's a medical fact. |
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Post by 84aztec96 on Jul 23, 2022 14:43:23 GMT -8
The majority of this country support limits on abortion. And now that will be hashed out state by state. Some states will have no limits, some will have many limits. Voters can vote in and out representatives as they see fit. The unborn are human and alive, right from conception. At 4 months of pregnancy?...take a look... www.webmd.com/baby/4to6-months ... what is that thing? To me, "personhood" is arbitrary. Some humans are persons and we can't take their life without proper justification, some are not, so we can take their life as we see fit. Is that 4 month old fetus a person? How about a newborn? |
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Post by The Aztec Panther on Jul 23, 2022 15:53:27 GMT -8
The majority of this country support limits on abortion. And now that will be hashed out state by state. Some states will have no limits, some will have many limits. Voters can vote in and out representatives as they see fit. The unborn are human and alive, right from conception. At 4 months of pregnancy?...take a look... www.webmd.com/baby/4to6-months ... what is that thing? To me, "personhood" is arbitrary. Some humans are persons and we can't take their life without proper justification, some are not, so we can take their life as we see fit. Is that 4 month old fetus a person? How about a newborn? Don't be stupid. Of course a newborn is a person. No one is even debating that. No one but the far right pro-life extremists are even bringing that argument up because it's so disingenuous. A 4 month old fetus with no upper brain function? That's debatable. It's not black or white. It's gray, and being gray that should be left up to the pregnant woman to decide. Again, the rights of the prospective mother must outweight the rights of a non-viable fetus. She IS a person. That part isn't debatable. |
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Post by The Aztec Panther on Jul 23, 2022 15:53:59 GMT -8
Oh, and you've got to love the Republicans and those in the Pro-Life movement who are ALSO against contraceptives.
Talk about hypocritical bull$#!+!
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Post by sdsuball on Jul 23, 2022 17:02:59 GMT -8
The majority of this country support limits on abortion. And now that will be hashed out state by state. Some states will have no limits, some will have many limits. Voters can vote in and out representatives as they see fit. The unborn are human and alive, right from conception. At 4 months of pregnancy?...take a look... www.webmd.com/baby/4to6-months ... what is that thing? To me, "personhood" is arbitrary. Some humans are persons and we can't take their life without proper justification, some are not, so we can take their life as we see fit. Is that 4 month old fetus a person? How about a newborn?If its so arbitrary to you why are you taking a stand against women being able to choose? If it's arbitrary, why do you feel like you have more of a right to make a choice on what happens inside a women's body then her? The delineator for me is having a body that can exist outside of the womb. Part of what is encapsulated into personhood is having a human body. Do your teeth have rights? Does your stomach have rights? Do dead spirits have rights? Personhood and the rights associated with personhood are directly tied to the physical body. Fetuses who are not viable aren't fully functional bodies, and do not exist outside of the women's body. They don't have any of the rights that the bill of rights provides. They aren't a citizen until they are born. Parents can't count a child as a dependent in 2021 if the child was conceived in 2021 and born in 2022. |
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Post by sdsuball on Jul 23, 2022 17:13:45 GMT -8
The majority of this country support limits on abortion. And now that will be hashed out state by state. Some states will have no limits, some will have many limits. Voters can vote in and out representatives as they see fit. The unborn are human and alive, right from conception. At 4 months of pregnancy?...take a look... www.webmd.com/baby/4to6-months ... what is that thing? To me, "personhood" is arbitrary. Some humans are persons and we can't take their life without proper justification, some are not, so we can take their life as we see fit. Is that 4 month old fetus a person? How about a newborn? The flip side of the argument is this. If you want to use another metric to determine personhood then fully functional human body (let's say for you, personhood is when the fetus moves inside the mother), then what about animals? If fetuses have rights once they are animate, then what about the rights of animals? Who are we to kill them? Because again, this expansionist ideology of personhood goes beyond being a person, to merely being a being that is alive (a fetus). Just because that being will become a person, so what? What about beings that are intelligent that are locked up in cages at zoos and aquariums (elephants, monkeys, dolphins, whales). They are significantly more intelligent then a fetus. |
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Post by sdsuball on Jul 23, 2022 17:26:14 GMT -8
The majority of this country support limits on abortion. And now that will be hashed out state by state. Some states will have no limits, some will have many limits. Voters can vote in and out representatives as they see fit. The unborn are human and alive, right from conception. At 4 months of pregnancy?...take a look... www.webmd.com/baby/4to6-months ... what is that thing? To me, "personhood" is arbitrary. Some humans are persons and we can't take their life without proper justification, some are not, so we can take their life as we see fit. Is that 4 month old fetus a person? How about a newborn? Don't be stupid. Of course a newborn is a person. No one is even debating that. No one but the far right pro-life extremists are even bringing that argument up because it's so disingenuous. A 4 month old fetus with no upper brain function? That's debatable. It's not black or white. It's gray, and being gray that should be left up to the pregnant woman to decide. Again, the rights of the prospective mother must outweight the rights of a non-viable fetus. She IS a person. That part isn't debatable. The other thing that you have to consider to is that even in the scenario where you identify personhood as a moving fetus, the rights of the mother are in conflict with the rights of the fetus.All US citizens have the right to control of their own body free of government intervention. Telling a pregnant women that she can't get an abortion (and lets say she is too early to deliver the fetus as a viable baby) is saying that the fetus'es right to life supersedes the mother's right to bodily autonomy. Not only that, but it also forces the mother to endanger her own life to carry the baby to delivery and then deliver it. Pregnancy and childbirth are both dangerous and deadly for women. Modern medicine has greatly reduced the risks, sure, but they are still ever present. |
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Post by 84aztec96 on Jul 23, 2022 18:07:13 GMT -8
I think personhood is arbitrary and should NOT be used to decide wether an individual is human or not.
Human beings are personal type of beings. All of our functions (including personhood, whatever that is) develop because of type of being we ALREADY are.
I didn't suddenly become a human being when I became viable, or became a person (whatever and whenever that was) or any other function. I'm a human being because my parents were human beings. I was a human being at conception. I will remain a human being until I die, even if I stop functioning correctly.
I don't know how it could be more clear. The women's body isn't the ONLY body that is involved in a pregnancy and abortion. There is another body involved. The other body is the one that dies.
You might think that is fine, but at least understand another human being is involved. Label that human nonviable (a newborn is completely dependent on another human being to care for it or it will not live) or not a person, or whatever, but the fact is, that unborn individual is another human being. And abortion ends that human beings life.
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Post by johneaztec on Jul 23, 2022 18:08:06 GMT -8
The majority of this country support limits on abortion. And now that will be hashed out state by state. Some states will have no limits, some will have many limits. Voters can vote in and out representatives as they see fit. The unborn are human and alive, right from conception. At 4 months of pregnancy?...take a look... www.webmd.com/baby/4to6-months ... what is that thing? To me, "personhood" is arbitrary. Some humans are persons and we can't take their life without proper justification, some are not, so we can take their life as we see fit. Is that 4 month old fetus a person? How about a newborn? Don't be stupid. Of course a newborn is a person. No one is even debating that. No one but the far right pro-life extremists are even bringing that argument up because it's so disingenuous. A 4 month old fetus with no upper brain function? That's debatable. It's not black or white. It's gray, and being gray that should be left up to the pregnant woman to decide. Again, the rights of the prospective mother must outweight the rights of a non-viable fetus. She IS a person. That part isn't debatable. Don't be hypocritical. You call out people when they name call. Follow what you preach. |
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