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Post by The Aztec Panther on Nov 8, 2021 19:00:22 GMT -8
It still isn't safe to just live life like the old normal. It just isn't. It ain't so bad out here. Life is going on. Safe is a relative term, and compared to the old normal, sure, it's about 0.01% more dangerous to live a normal life on any given day. Not really, thousands of people are still dying every week from COVID. Tens of thousands more are getting sick, missing work, and, in some cases, suffering permanent respiratory damage. My brother got COVID in July 2020, and he didn't get to 95% recovered for about a year. (Probably 90% recovered after 4 or 5 months, but he wasn't quite FULLY recovered a year after getting it, and he was only 49 when he got it.) I also had a policyholder whose daughter had it, and she is still on a ventilator 4 months later, and is looking at the possibility of being stuck on that ventilator PERMANENTLY. This thing isn't like the viruses we're used to - it can cause PERMANENT damage. If I get it bad like that, I could be in real trouble, financially. So I'm in no position to downplay the risk. And I'd rather not die, which, even though it's a small risk, it's still a risk that wasn't there prior to December, 2019. |
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Post by The Aztec Panther on Nov 8, 2021 19:03:10 GMT -8
I'm aligning with scientists and doctors. I didn't mean to imply you were aligning with either. Pointing out that both sides of the political divide on this issue are being manipulated to feel threatened and outraged, for different reasons. Yeah, but the Democrats aren't doing anything to hurt anyone. Wearing a mask? Harmless. Geting a vaccine? We ALL do it as kids. Harmless. BOTH can help save lives, though. Republicans telling people they don't have to wear masks or get vaccinations? That can, and has, caused tens of thousands of needless deaths to people who refused to get the vaccine because of what they heard on far right media. |
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Post by azteccc on Nov 8, 2021 19:27:13 GMT -8
I didn't mean to imply you were aligning with either. Pointing out that both sides of the political divide on this issue are being manipulated to feel threatened and outraged, for different reasons. Yeah, but the Democrats aren't doing anything to hurt anyone. Wearing a mask? Harmless. Geting a vaccine? We ALL do it as kids. Harmless. BOTH can help save lives, though. Republicans telling people they don't have to wear masks or get vaccinations? That can, and has, caused tens of thousands of needless deaths to people who refused to get the vaccine because of what they heard on far right media. See, that’s a false dichotomy. Democrats (generally) are removing your bodily autonomy as a condition to participate in society. Republicans are just… not telling people what to do with their bodies. One is forceful coercion and active removal of rights, the other is just… nothing. And I should say, I mean this in a policy sense. I have no idea what right wing or corporate media are saying about any of this, I turned off the “news” at the beginning of the pandemic and haven’t really turned it back on. |
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Post by The Aztec Panther on Nov 8, 2021 20:58:54 GMT -8
Yeah, but the Democrats aren't doing anything to hurt anyone. Wearing a mask? Harmless. Geting a vaccine? We ALL do it as kids. Harmless. BOTH can help save lives, though. Republicans telling people they don't have to wear masks or get vaccinations? That can, and has, caused tens of thousands of needless deaths to people who refused to get the vaccine because of what they heard on far right media. See, that’s a false dichotomy. Democrats (generally) are removing your bodily autonomy as a condition to participate in society. Republicans are just… not telling people what to do with their bodies. One is forceful coercion and active removal of rights, the other is just… nothing. You're wrong here. Do you or do you not have to provide PROOF of multiple vaccinations every time you enroll your kid in public school? Answer - you do (I know, because I had to do it). Now, we are in unprecedented territory here. 750,000 Americans have died of COVID in 20 months. That is a public emergency. The government not only has a right to handle an emergency this way, they have an OBLIGATION to do so. And Republicans most certainly do NOT support bodily autonomy, and you damned well know it. They've just been taking advantage of this situation to foment anger. Most right wing commentators were against requiring masks and vaccinations, and they'd bring on crackpot, "Experts," who would say that people are just as safe without them, which was total and complete bull$#!+. They were following the party playbook and using it as a wedge issue rather than dealing with it with ethics and integrity. Not all of those 750,000 people had to die. If we had truly done all we could that number would be well below 500,000 - maybe a lot less than that. But because the right wing media used this as a wedge issue they convinced a lot of people that their, "Freedom," was being taken away. Freedom to live is a lot more important than freedom to not wear a mask or get vaccinated. |
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Post by aztecnails on Nov 9, 2021 10:55:18 GMT -8
Time for Newsom to tell the truth if he suffered Bell's Palsy or Gillian Barre syndrome after taking the booster Oct. 27. He was not seen for 11 days. The people who died with covid in hospitals died because of medical malpractice and were given remdesivir. Hospitals ordered doctors not to use monoclonal antibodies. Video of soccer games around the world shows vaccinated players collapsing during games as reported by international media. CHI Memorial nurse Tiffany Dover Pontes took the vaccination on video in Dec. 2020, fainted at a press conference and is most likely dead according to her husband. Yet, CHI Memorial hospital refuses to say if she is dead.
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Post by The Aztec Panther on Nov 9, 2021 11:20:23 GMT -8
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Post by aardvark on Nov 9, 2021 11:21:02 GMT -8
Time for Newsom to tell the truth if he suffered Bell's Palsy or Gillian Barre syndrome after taking the booster Oct. 27. He was not seen for 11 days. The people who died with covid in hospitals died because of medical malpractice and were given remdesivir. Hospitals ordered doctors not to use monoclonal antibodies. Video of soccer games around the world shows vaccinated players collapsing during games as reported by international media. CHI Memorial nurse Tiffany Dover Pontes took the vaccination on video in Dec. 2020, fainted at a press conference and is most likely dead according to her husband. Yet, CHI Memorial hospital refuses to say if she is dead. You keep mentioning soccer players collapsing during games. Please read up on those collapsing players. They had issues that were not vaccination related. While rare, soccer players have collapsed on the field--some have even died--during workouts and games for years. A simple search online would have told you this fact. Stop trying to tie those players into your argument. Regarding the governor: Frankly, I haven't missed him. But it was reported that he was dealing with "unspecified family obligations". The guy might be a weasel (at least in my eyes), but he does have a family, and if he needs to deal with family problems--so be it. |
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Post by azson on Nov 9, 2021 11:31:21 GMT -8
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Post by sdsuball on Nov 9, 2021 21:48:20 GMT -8
See, that’s a false dichotomy. Democrats (generally) are removing your bodily autonomy as a condition to participate in society. Republicans are just… not telling people what to do with their bodies. One is forceful coercion and active removal of rights, the other is just… nothing. You're wrong here. Do you or do you not have to provide PROOF of multiple vaccinations every time you enroll your kid in public school? Answer - you do (I know, because I had to do it). Now, we are in unprecedented territory here. 750,000 Americans have died of COVID in 20 months. That is a public emergency. The government not only has a right to handle an emergency this way, they have an OBLIGATION to do so. And Republicans most certainly do NOT support bodily autonomy, and you damned well know it. They've just been taking advantage of this situation to foment anger. Most right wing commentators were against requiring masks and vaccinations, and they'd bring on crackpot, "Experts," who would say that people are just as safe without them, which was total and complete bull$#!+. They were following the party playbook and using it as a wedge issue rather than dealing with it with ethics and integrity. Not all of those 750,000 people had to die. If we had truly done all we could that number would be well below 500,000 - maybe a lot less than that. But because the right wing media used this as a wedge issue they convinced a lot of people that their, "Freedom," was being taken away. Freedom to live is a lot more important than freedom to not wear a mask or get vaccinated. The Smallpox, or Tetanus, or really any of the normal vaccines that children receive, fulfill two functions: 1. They prevent infection from Smallpox, Tetanus, or the other illness 2. They prevent community spread of the illness 3. They don't have any side effects (or only very mild side effects) The COVID vaccines do not do any of the above functions well: 1. There are millions of breakthrough COVID cases. The vaccine lowers the death rate, but it's still very possible to get COVID when vaccinated 2. The vaccine does not prevent community spread of COVID, because vaccinated people are still capable of becoming ill with COVID. Now, it is possible that it reduces community spread. 3. The COVID vaccine has serious documented side effects, such as myocarditis and blood clotting, that (may) be more harmful to the vaccinated individual then being unvaccinated.A better point of comparison between the COVID vaccine and another vaccine, would be comparing the COVID vaccine to the Swine Flu vaccine of 1976, which was later discontinued due to serious health risks:"In 1976 there was a small increased risk of a serious neurological disorder called Guillain-Barré Syndrome (GBS) following vaccination with a swine flu vaccine. The increased risk was approximately 1 additional case of GBS for every 100,000 people who got the swine flu vaccine. When over 40 million people were vaccinated against swine flu, federal health officials decided that the possibility of an association of GBS with the vaccine, however small, necessitated stopping immunization until the issue could be explored.
The Institute of Medicine (IOM) conducted a thorough scientific reviewexternal icon of this issue in 2003 and concluded that people who received the 1976 swine influenza vaccine had an increased risk for developing GBS. Scientists have multiple theories on why this increased risk may have occurred, but the exact reason for this association remains unknown."
Source: www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/concerns/concerns-history.html |
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Post by Obsidian Edge on Nov 18, 2021 4:04:51 GMT -8
Resident leftist here. Mandates very, very bad. I am endlessly surprised and disappointed by those on the left cheering this on, which seems to be most of them these days. It is madness. Mandates have eradicated measles, mumps, and rubella for the most part. How is that bad? For starters, those vaccines underwent a decade+ of development and longterm testing before being required within the public education system (mostly). In this case you have a gene therapy (not vaccine) skipping phase 3 testing and yet it is mandated to participate in civic life, i.e. hold a job. travel, etc. So you have a situation in which a new type of medical therapy isn't being fully tested and yet is given a far more sweeping mandate than any prior vaccine to date. That should be concerning to anyone. But tangentially, I think we should revisit mandating *any* medical treatment. Medical treatments should be by choice, not by coercion. It doesn't matter how lofty your end goal may be. You need to persuade people to put something in their bodies. |
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Post by Obsidian Edge on Nov 18, 2021 4:09:15 GMT -8
First, we've heard this before. Second, people are still dying in large numbers from COVID. It still isn't safe to just live life like the old normal. It just isn't. Vaccinations and boosters will make it safer, but not as safe as we were before COVID. Why not allow individuals to determine whether it is safe? Seems like a large percentage, to include the political and entertainment elite, are doing just that; attending concerts, large events, and otherwise participating in society with little fear of death. If you would prefer to stay sequestered at home forever then you can do that. Allow others to do as they see fit. |
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Post by The Aztec Panther on Nov 18, 2021 8:21:15 GMT -8
Mandates have eradicated measles, mumps, and rubella for the most part. How is that bad? For starters, those vaccines underwent a decade+ of development and longterm testing before being required within the public education system (mostly). In this case you have a gene therapy (not vaccine) skipping phase 3 testing and yet it is mandated to participate in civic life, i.e. hold a job. travel, etc. So you have a situation in which a new type of medical therapy isn't being fully tested and yet is given a far more sweeping mandate than any prior vaccine to date. That should be concerning to anyone. But tangentially, I think we should revisit mandating *any* medical treatment. Medical treatments should be by choice, not by coercion. It doesn't matter how lofty your end goal may be. You need to persuade people to put something in their bodies. If we had done what you suggest, Polio would still be around killing and crippling people. Smallpox would still be around killing people. Kids are required to get about 6 vaccines plus booster shots BEFORE they are allowed to go to school, and their parents have to show proof of those vaccinations and booster shots to enroll their kids in school. And the COVID vaccine is based on a template developed 20 years ago. It's nothing new. |
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Post by Obsidian Edge on Nov 18, 2021 10:13:20 GMT -8
For starters, those vaccines underwent a decade+ of development and longterm testing before being required within the public education system (mostly). In this case you have a gene therapy (not vaccine) skipping phase 3 testing and yet it is mandated to participate in civic life, i.e. hold a job. travel, etc. So you have a situation in which a new type of medical therapy isn't being fully tested and yet is given a far more sweeping mandate than any prior vaccine to date. That should be concerning to anyone. But tangentially, I think we should revisit mandating *any* medical treatment. Medical treatments should be by choice, not by coercion. It doesn't matter how lofty your end goal may be. You need to persuade people to put something in their bodies. If we had done what you suggest, Polio would still be around killing and crippling people. Smallpox would still be around killing people. Kids are required to get about 6 vaccines plus booster shots BEFORE they are allowed to go to school, and their parents have to show proof of those vaccinations and booster shots to enroll their kids in school. And the COVID vaccine is based on a template developed 20 years ago. It's nothing new. There have been a few *rare* cases of *temporary* state-wide mandates. Which is case in point; despite the absence of a federal mandate, these diseases were eradicated. Probably because individuals have a vested interest in their own survival and will probably make decisions in accordance with this principle. Yes, presently kids are forced to receive vaccines to attend school. I think that requirement needs to be revisited, as I believe parents should not be coerced to vaccinate their children. Yes, research on mRNA vectors have been around for a few decades, but this is a *product.* That's like saying we don't need to extensively test a first of its kind heart medication because heart medication research on this subject has been around awhile. And oh btw, we need to force everyone in the country to take it. You should be aware that mRNA-based test products in the past have ended in failure as the tests demonstrated enormous risks, to include death, to the subjects. To review: 1. No sweeping federal mandate has ever been instituted. 2. This gene editing product is a first-of-its-kind technology that has undergone no longterm studies to determine safety, yet it is being mandated. |
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Post by aardvark on Nov 18, 2021 10:42:07 GMT -8
I have chosen to get vaccinated--both of my Pfizer shots in February, and recently, my first(?) booster.
It wasn't mandated that I get the Covid vaccine when I got all of my jabs, but it was recommended, as I am over 65 with a few preexisting conditions.
I have had no ill-effects from any of the shots (other than a sore arm for a day after each shot).
I would expect the Covid vaccine to become an annual thing, like an annual flu shot.
And...the flu shot is not mandated. I'm not sure how I would feel regarding any Covid vaccine mandate if I were younger with no preexisting conditions.
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Post by uwphoto on Nov 18, 2021 10:50:09 GMT -8
If we had done what you suggest, Polio would still be around killing and crippling people. Smallpox would still be around killing people. Kids are required to get about 6 vaccines plus booster shots BEFORE they are allowed to go to school, and their parents have to show proof of those vaccinations and booster shots to enroll their kids in school. And the COVID vaccine is based on a template developed 20 years ago. It's nothing new. There have been a few *rare* cases of *temporary* state-wide mandates. Which is case in point; despite the absence of a federal mandate, these diseases were eradicated. Probably because individuals have a vested interest in their own survival and will probably make decisions in accordance with this principle. Yes, presently kids are forced to receive vaccines to attend school. I think that requirement needs to be revisited, as I believe parents should not be coerced to vaccinate their children. Yes, research on mRNA vectors have been around for a few decades, but this is a *product.* That's like saying we don't need to extensively test a first of its kind heart medication because heart medication research on this subject has been around awhile. And oh btw, we need to force everyone in the country to take it. You should be aware that mRNA-based test products in the past have ended in failure as the tests demonstrated enormous risks, to include death, to the subjects. To review: 1. No sweeping federal mandate has ever been instituted. 2. This gene editing product is a first-of-its-kind technology that has undergone no longterm studies to determine safety, yet it is being mandated. regarding safety. The Warriors felt it was safe enough, and are leading the league. I hear about soccer players "collapsing"..but no NFL, NBA..or MLB?? I think if this Covid was even 5% mortality..nobody would be questioning it. Of course every denier will tell you thousands have died from the vaccine...cause they "did their own research"!... |
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Post by Obsidian Edge on Nov 18, 2021 11:35:07 GMT -8
There has never been a *federal* mandate for any vaccine in order to participate in civic life. There have been a few *rare* cases of *temporary* state-wide mandates. Which is case in point; despite the absence of a federal mandate, these diseases were eradicated. Probably because individuals have a vested interest in their own survival and will probably make decisions in accordance with this principle. Yes, presently kids are forced to receive vaccines to attend school. I think that requirement needs to be revisited, as I believe parents should not be coerced to vaccinate their children. Yes, research on mRNA vectors have been around for a few decades, but this is a *product.* That's like saying we don't need to extensively test a first of its kind heart medication because heart medication research on this subject has been around awhile. And oh btw, we need to force everyone in the country to take it. You should be aware that mRNA-based test products in the past have ended in failure as the tests demonstrated enormous risks, to include death, to the subjects. To review: 1. No sweeping federal mandate has ever been instituted. 2. This gene editing product is a first-of-its-kind technology that has undergone no longterm studies to determine safety, yet it is being mandated. regarding safety. The Warriors felt it was safe enough, and are leading the league. I hear about soccer players "collapsing"..but no NFL, NBA..or MLB?? I think if this Covid was even 5% mortality..nobody would be questioning it. Of course every denier will tell you thousands have died from the vaccine...cause they "did their own research"!... I wouldn't change my position if the mortality from COVID was 99% because, again, I believe an individual has a right to determine what goes in their body, and are in any case the most incentivized to secure their own survival. The higher the mortality, the more likely individuals would decide to get the vaccine, however experimental or dangerous it may be. You wouldn't need a federal mandate. Fortunately, the real mortality rate of COVID is more like <.02% if you trust the official statistics (which are almost certainly grossly inflated due to perverse reporting incentives). As a factual matter, thousands of people have died from the vaccine. Roughly 18,000 to be exact. I refer you to the official VAERS data: openvaers.com/covid-data. Note that this is likely a small fraction (<5%) of the actual figures since most cases go unreported. |
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Post by uwphoto on Nov 18, 2021 12:00:55 GMT -8
regarding safety. The Warriors felt it was safe enough, and are leading the league. I hear about soccer players "collapsing"..but no NFL, NBA..or MLB?? I think if this Covid was even 5% mortality..nobody would be questioning it. Of course every denier will tell you thousands have died from the vaccine...cause they "did their own research"!... I wouldn't change my position if the mortality from COVID was 99% because, again, I believe an individual has a right to determine what goes in their body, and are in any case the most incentivized to secure their own survival. The higher the mortality, the more likely individuals would decide to get the vaccine, however experimental or dangerous it may be. You wouldn't need a federal mandate. Fortunately, the real mortality rate of COVID is more like <.02% if you trust the official statistics (which are almost certainly grossly inflated due to perverse reporting incentives). As a factual matter, thousands of people have died from the vaccine. Roughly 18,000 to be exact. I refer you to the official VAERS data: openvaers.com/covid-data. Note that this is likely a small fraction (<5%) of the actual figures since most cases go unreported. well, even 20% sends us back to the stone age..so you wouldn't have to worry about it. So how come no NBA, NFL or MLB dead?? how come nobody I, or any of my many friends, know ...dead? |
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Post by Obsidian Edge on Nov 18, 2021 13:23:20 GMT -8
I wouldn't change my position if the mortality from COVID was 99% because, again, I believe an individual has a right to determine what goes in their body, and are in any case the most incentivized to secure their own survival. The higher the mortality, the more likely individuals would decide to get the vaccine, however experimental or dangerous it may be. You wouldn't need a federal mandate. Fortunately, the real mortality rate of COVID is more like <.02% if you trust the official statistics (which are almost certainly grossly inflated due to perverse reporting incentives). As a factual matter, thousands of people have died from the vaccine. Roughly 18,000 to be exact. I refer you to the official VAERS data: openvaers.com/covid-data. Note that this is likely a small fraction (<5%) of the actual figures since most cases go unreported. well, even 20% sends us back to the stone age..so you wouldn't have to worry about it. So how come no NBA, NFL or MLB dead?? how come nobody I, or any of my many friends, know ...dead? Small sample size? Death is not the only side effect, just the worst. And it may come 5, 10, 15 years sooner because every cell in your body produced a toxic spike protein which caused irreparable damage to critical organs and tissues. Or it may come when your body is exposed to a more virulent sars-covid mutation and the vaccine causes your immune system to overreact to the stimuli, as was the case with previous trials. The point is no one knows because these longterm studies weren't done. |
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Post by uwphoto on Nov 18, 2021 14:57:41 GMT -8
well, even 20% sends us back to the stone age..so you wouldn't have to worry about it. So how come no NBA, NFL or MLB dead?? how come nobody I, or any of my many friends, know ...dead? Small sample size? Death is not the only side effect, just the worst. And it may come 5, 10, 15 years sooner because every cell in your body produced a toxic spike protein which caused irreparable damage to critical organs and tissues. Or it may come when your body is exposed to a more virulent sars-covid mutation and the vaccine causes your immune system to overreact to the stimuli, as was the case with previous trials. The point is no one knows because these longterm studies weren't done. Dude,I've survived many vaccines, a cat 4 hurricane, a roll over car accident, lost underwater in a cave, white shark, tiger shark, over 10,000 SCUBA dives, ultra light flights, remote jungles and much more...I'll let you worry about the vaccine. |
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Post by azteccc on Dec 8, 2021 10:39:09 GMT -8
😆 That's cute. The anarchist claiming to represent the Left 😆 The *left* yes, most definitely not the Democrats or liberals. And I don’t represent them, especially not on this. I WILL point out, however, as I have in the past - I’m more libertarian than our “I’m a libertarian but vote Republican” board mod  Call it economically socialist, socially libertarian. Just because I reread this thread last night and saw this this morning… |
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