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Post by AztecWilliam on Oct 30, 2020 17:47:22 GMT -8
I certainly don't think the President did a great job fighting the virus, but it is not true that he did nothing. Probably the worst thing is that he did was not to go on TV pretty early to tell the American people that Covid 19 was very serious and must be treated accordingly.
At the same time he could have said that, while it was a serious threat, it was a challenge that we could and would defeat. In other words, a balance between acknowledging the threat but the same time not telling the public that all was lost. (Wasn't that more or less the tone FDR took early his first term?)
Trump started Operation Light Speed. If we develop an effective vaccine, which I think we will, credit must be given for that operation. (Would a President Biden acknowledge the work done of Trump's watch? I hope he would, but he has made it clear that he believes Trump to be a dangerous clown. Does he say, Well, yes, Trump is a horrible person, but I'm glad the vaccine his administration helped develop is saving lives?)
Let's not forget that in the heat of a battle, it is easy to make mistakes. Let's also not forget that a number of prominent Democrats were pooh-poohing the virus and encouraging people to come on downtown to enjoy themselves. That was a mistake.
I'm disinclined to blame everything on Trump and assume that a Democrat (or a different Republican) would have gotten everything absolutely right. One has to wonder what a President Hillary Clinton would have done differently. Quite possibly she would have done a better job that Trump, but maybe not. Would she have cut off traffic from China and Europe? If she had, at least she would not have been savaged by the press as a racist/xenophobe. Isn't that what they all said about the POTUS?
In short, it's easy to criticize after the fact. Sometimes the criticisms are well-founded. But not always.
AzWm
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Post by ramrodd23 on Oct 30, 2020 18:03:31 GMT -8
I certainly don't think the President did a great job fighting the virus, but it is not true that he did nothing. Probably the worst thing is that he did was not to go on TV pretty early to tell the American people that Covid 19 was very serious and must be treated accordingly. At the same time he could have said that, while it was a serious threat, it was a challenge that we could and would defeat. In other words, a balance between acknowledging the threat but the same time not telling the public that all was lost. (Wasn't that more or less the tone FDR took early his first term?) Trump started Operation Light Speed. If we develop an effective vaccine, which I think we will, credit must be given for that operation. (Would a President Biden acknowledge the work done of Trump's watch? I hope he would, but he has made it clear that he believes Trump to be a dangerous clown. Does he say, Well, yes, Trump is a horrible person, but I'm glad the vaccine his administration helped develop is saving lives?) Let's not forget that in the heat of a battle, it is easy to make mistakes. Let's also not forget that a number of prominent Democrats were pooh-poohing the virus and encouraging people to come on downtown to enjoy themselves. That was a mistake. I'm disinclined to blame everything on Trump and assume that a Democrat (or a different Republican) would have gotten everything absolutely right. One has to wonder what a President Hillary Clinton would have done differently. Quite possibly she would have done a better job that Trump, but maybe not. Would she have cut off traffic from China and Europe? If she had, at least she would not have been savaged by the press as a racist/xenophobe. Isn't that what they all said about the POTUS? In short, it's easy to criticize after the fact. Sometimes the criticisms are well-founded. But not always. AzWm So he knew it was bad in February and this is what he did. www.google.com/amp/s/www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2020/04/20/what-trump-did-about-coronavirus-february/%3foutputType=ampSo giving him a pass is ridiculous.
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Post by AztecWilliam on Oct 30, 2020 18:12:56 GMT -8
Uh, huh. Well, maybe. Maybe not. There have been many predictions and many models. Let's say that Trump had said weeks earlier that a near total lockdown was required. Do you really think that the Left, comprised of people who had tried to convince the Electoral College to overturn the election, would have said, "Yeah, that makes sense. Gotta give the POTUS credit for taking decisive action." He would have been savaged, and you know it. That is the default position of the anti-Trumpers in virtually every case. I also recall seeing and listening to Dr. Fauci when he said (in late February) that Covid-19 was not trivial, but that it probably would not be a huge threat, and (in early March) that masks were really not effective. Look those up if you do not believe me. The point is this; one can believe that the President did a bad job in this case without assuming that his opponents would have, had they been if office, done everything right from day one. I have too much faith in the imperfection of human beings to swallow that line. AzWm
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Post by AztecWilliam on Oct 30, 2020 18:18:04 GMT -8
I certainly don't think the President did a great job fighting the virus, but it is not true that he did nothing. Probably the worst thing is that he did was not to go on TV pretty early to tell the American people that Covid 19 was very serious and must be treated accordingly. At the same time he could have said that, while it was a serious threat, it was a challenge that we could and would defeat. In other words, a balance between acknowledging the threat but the same time not telling the public that all was lost. (Wasn't that more or less the tone FDR took early his first term?) Trump started Operation Light Speed. If we develop an effective vaccine, which I think we will, credit must be given for that operation. (Would a President Biden acknowledge the work done of Trump's watch? I hope he would, but he has made it clear that he believes Trump to be a dangerous clown. Does he say, Well, yes, Trump is a horrible person, but I'm glad the vaccine his administration helped develop is saving lives?) Let's not forget that in the heat of a battle, it is easy to make mistakes. Let's also not forget that a number of prominent Democrats were pooh-poohing the virus and encouraging people to come on downtown to enjoy themselves. That was a mistake. I'm disinclined to blame everything on Trump and assume that a Democrat (or a different Republican) would have gotten everything absolutely right. One has to wonder what a President Hillary Clinton would have done differently. Quite possibly she would have done a better job that Trump, but maybe not. Would she have cut off traffic from China and Europe? If she had, at least she would not have been savaged by the press as a racist/xenophobe. Isn't that what they all said about the POTUS? In short, it's easy to criticize after the fact. Sometimes the criticisms are well-founded. But not always. AzWm So he knew it was bad in February and this is what he did. www.google.com/amp/s/www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2020/04/20/what-trump-did-about-coronavirus-february/%3foutputType=ampSo giving him a pass is ridiculous. Well, then. Please answer this question. Do you think that a POTUS H. Clinton or J. Biden would have made every decision correctly and in a timely manner? Perhaps they would have. I have my doubts simply, because of the "fog of war" factor. Or perhaps it's just that Democrats are so much wiser and more decisive than the rest of us mere mortals. Come on, what do you think? AzWm
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Post by aztecryan on Oct 30, 2020 18:18:18 GMT -8
I certainly don't think the President did a great job fighting the virus, but it is not true that he did nothing. Probably the worst thing is that he did was not to go on TV pretty early to tell the American people that Covid 19 was very serious and must be treated accordingly. At the same time he could have said that, while it was a serious threat, it was a challenge that we could and would defeat. In other words, a balance between acknowledging the threat but the same time not telling the public that all was lost. (Wasn't that more or less the tone FDR took early his first term?) Trump started Operation Light Speed. If we develop an effective vaccine, which I think we will, credit must be given for that operation. (Would a President Biden acknowledge the work done of Trump's watch? I hope he would, but he has made it clear that he believes Trump to be a dangerous clown. Does he say, Well, yes, Trump is a horrible person, but I'm glad the vaccine his administration helped develop is saving lives?) Let's not forget that in the heat of a battle, it is easy to make mistakes. Let's also not forget that a number of prominent Democrats were pooh-poohing the virus and encouraging people to come on downtown to enjoy themselves. That was a mistake. I'm disinclined to blame everything on Trump and assume that a Democrat (or a different Republican) would have gotten everything absolutely right. One has to wonder what a President Hillary Clinton would have done differently. Quite possibly she would have done a better job that Trump, but maybe not. Would she have cut off traffic from China and Europe? If she had, at least she would not have been savaged by the press as a racist/xenophobe. Isn't that what they all said about the POTUS? In short, it's easy to criticize after the fact. Sometimes the criticisms are well-founded. But not always. AzWm This is just an absurdly poor take, unfortunately. The worst thing he did is debatable among several things, including, but not limited to : Downplaying the severity of the pandemic, even with multiple years of advanced warnings; suppressing the science and putting Mike Pence in charge of a task force that was largely inept and disjointed; failing to even regard the pandemic playbook left by the previous administration; firing Rick Bright, a person who had decades of experience in vaccine development; failing to adhere to CDC protocols for campaign events, rallies, official White House briefings and so on, which directly led to the death of Herman Cain and others. For the love of God, stop citing the travel ban. It was WORTHLESS. Tens of thousands of people from Hong Kong still flew in, with zero security measures at airports. No screenings, no questioning. Even more flew in from the UK, which was exempt from the European ban. It was an empty, ineffecive measure. The virus was already here, in America. It was far too late. Maybe in December, when the president was briefed (again) about the severity of what was likely to happen. A Democrat isn't in office, Donald Trump is. Stop playing whataboutisms and start dealing with the reality of what actually transpired. Stop giving the man in charge of the fiasco a pass for making repeated, intentional decisions that have negative consequences.
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Post by aztecryan on Oct 30, 2020 18:23:14 GMT -8
Well, then. Please answer this question. Do you think that a POTUS H. Clinton or J. Biden would have made every decision correctly and in a timely manner? Perhaps they would have. I have my doubts simply, because of the "fog of war" factor. Or perhaps it's just that Democrats are so much wiser and more decisive than the rest of us mere mortals. Come on, what do you think? AzWm On the same day Biden tweeted that (well in advance of the first case worldwide), the president tweeted or re-tweeted 47 times. 4.....7. None of those tweets even referenced the pandemic. They did cover Apple CEO Tim Cook, impeachment and mocking political opponents, however. So, yeah, I can comfortably say that a potential Biden administration likely would know what to do, considering they already had experience dealing with H1N1.
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Post by ramrodd23 on Oct 30, 2020 18:55:59 GMT -8
Well, then. Please answer this question. Do you think that a POTUS H. Clinton or J. Biden would have made every decision correctly and in a timely manner? Perhaps they would have. I have my doubts simply, because of the "fog of war" factor. Or perhaps it's just that Democrats are so much wiser and more decisive than the rest of us mere mortals. Come on, what do you think? AzWm Ryan answer your question below. So golf and doing rallies was a smart move by the president in the month of February. When he knew about the virus late January early February?
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Post by aztecryan on Oct 30, 2020 19:23:44 GMT -8
Well, then. Please answer this question. Do you think that a POTUS H. Clinton or J. Biden would have made every decision correctly and in a timely manner? Perhaps they would have. I have my doubts simply, because of the "fog of war" factor. Or perhaps it's just that Democrats are so much wiser and more decisive than the rest of us mere mortals. Come on, what do you think? AzWm Ryan answer your question below. So golf and doing rallies was a smart move by the president in the month of February. When he knew about the virus late January early February? It's weird to me that the first sentence of this thread, 101 pages ago begins with "Put aside partisan politics"....and all we have gotten from William is defense of Trump, even in the face of overwhelming evidence that he botched this process from the start. Even removing that from consideration, the sheer fact that he wantonly disregarded protocols at his superspreader events (removing social distancing signs, cutting tape off chairs, not enforcing masks at all) should be enough to condemn him. Not holding a coronavirus task force meeting during the pandemic for 8+ weeks should be enough. Kushner's blue state mandate about basically letting people die should be enough. Why isn't it?
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Post by Fishn'Aztec on Oct 30, 2020 20:53:36 GMT -8
Quit what? Telling lies and half truths, I think not. JMO
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Post by AztecWilliam on Oct 30, 2020 22:25:30 GMT -8
Well, then. Please answer this question. Do you think that a POTUS H. Clinton or J. Biden would have made every decision correctly and in a timely manner? Perhaps they would have. I have my doubts simply, because of the "fog of war" factor. Or perhaps it's just that Democrats are so much wiser and more decisive than the rest of us mere mortals. Come on, what do you think? AzWm Ryan answer your question below. So golf and doing rallies was a smart move by the president in the month of February. When he knew about the virus late January early February? No, he did not answer the question. Why is it so hard to answer? Yes, I do not think Trump handled the virus well enough. But do you think that a Democrat would have done everything right? Since a number of them (Pelosi, etc.) were telling people not to worry at a time when the virus was picking up speed, I would have to say that no matter who was in the White House in January, history would no doubt look back and find at least a few things to criticize. Or do you think that Democrats do everything right and Republicans always make terrible mistakes? If you believe that former, I suggest you read this: www.politico.com/news/2020/05/04/joe-biden-contain-h1n1-virus-232992AzWm
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Post by aztecryan on Oct 30, 2020 22:44:39 GMT -8
Ryan answer your question below. So golf and doing rallies was a smart move by the president in the month of February. When he knew about the virus late January early February? No, he did not answer the question. Why is it so hard to answer? Yes, I do not think Trump handled the virus well enough. But do you think that a Democrat would have done everything right? Since a number of them (Pelosi, etc.) were telling people not to worry at a time when the virus was picking up speed, I would have to say that no matter who was in the White House in January, history would no doubt look back and find at least a few things to criticize. Or do you think that Democrats do everything right and Republicans always make terrible mistakes? If you believe that former, I suggest you read this: www.politico.com/news/2020/05/04/joe-biden-contain-h1n1-virus-232992AzWm It literally does not matter. A Democrat isn't president, Donald Trump is. You can't stop using whataboutisms, instead of addressing and taking responsibility for your perspective. It's not enough to say he didn't do a great job. He did a HORRENDOUS, error-filled job that betrayed the public trust. Putting an unqualified Mike Pence and an even more unqualified Jared Kushner in a position of leadership, along with the myriad of other reasons I posted that you didn't address. Do I think anyone else would do a perfect job? No. Do I think we would undoubtedly not be having record unemployment, social division and a rising death toll 10 months later? Yes. It's about the intentional, purposeful decisions that were made.
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Post by ramrodd23 on Oct 31, 2020 8:36:53 GMT -8
Ryan answer your question below. So golf and doing rallies was a smart move by the president in the month of February. When he knew about the virus late January early February? No, he did not answer the question. Why is it so hard to answer? Yes, I do not think Trump handled the virus well enough. But do you think that a Democrat would have done everything right? Since a number of them (Pelosi, etc.) were telling people not to worry at a time when the virus was picking up speed, I would have to say that no matter who was in the White House in January, history would no doubt look back and find at least a few things to criticize. Or do you think that Democrats do everything right and Republicans always make terrible mistakes? If you believe that former, I suggest you read this: www.politico.com/news/2020/05/04/joe-biden-contain-h1n1-virus-232992AzWm He the president. Not anyone else. So he is in charge. Not them. He knew about how bad it was going to be, and did nothing for a month. He F**ked up period.
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Post by Al-O-Meter on Oct 31, 2020 9:17:24 GMT -8
He the president. Not anyone else. So he is in charge. Not them. He knew about how bad it was going to be That is quite a compliment. You think Donald Trump knew more about COVID-19 than PhD virologists, PhD epidemiologists, the World Health Organization, the CDC, and every other health organization in the world. Is it because you think Trump is just that smart or do you think his instincts border on the supernatural? No one knew the pathogen was airborne in February. The CDC didn’t announce it until June. No one knew how dangerous it was. The models at that time were wildly divergent and based on almost no real data. Donald Trump seemed to know and he even went to the press with his concerns. It really is too bad Bob Woodward chose to cover up the critical information smartest-man-in-the-world Trump had tried to relay to the public through him.
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Post by ramrodd23 on Oct 31, 2020 9:37:50 GMT -8
He the president. Not anyone else. So he is in charge. Not them. He knew about how bad it was going to be That is quite a compliment. You think Donald Trump knew more about COVID-19 than PhD virologists, PhD epidemiologists, the World Health Organization, the CDC, and every other health organization in the world. Is it because you think Trump is just that smart or do you think his instincts border on the supernatural? No one knew the pathogen was airborne in February. The CDC didn’t announce it until June. No one knew how dangerous it was. The models at that time were wildly divergent and based on almost no real data. Donald Trump seemed to know and he even went to the press with his concerns. It really is too bad Bob Woodward chose to cover up the critical information smartest-man-in-the-world Trump had tried to relay to the public through him. He knew in February how deadly it would be. You know the Woodward tape that every right winger wants to forget. He did absolutely nothing in that month. Why didn’t he do something because in his words “he wanted to reduce panic.” He F**ked up period.
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Post by Al-O-Meter on Oct 31, 2020 9:55:04 GMT -8
No one knew the pathogen was airborne in February. The CDC didn’t announce it until June. No one knew how dangerous it was. The models at that time were wildly divergent and based on almost no real data. Donald Trump seemed to know and he even went to the press with his concerns. It really is too bad Bob Woodward chose to cover up the critical information smartest-man-in-the-world Trump had tried to relay to the public through him. He knew in February how deadly it would be. I get what you are trying to say. You see him as almost godlike in intellect and instinct. I don’t share your vision of Trump as a Superman but I recognize the value in having heroes. If hero worship of Trump is your thing then I won’t stand in your way. Carry on.
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Post by ramrodd23 on Oct 31, 2020 10:02:29 GMT -8
He knew in February how deadly it would be. I get what you are trying to say. You see him as almost godlike in intellect and instinct. I don’t share your vision of Trump as a Superman but I recognize the value in having heroes. If hero worship of Trump is your thing then I won’t stand in your way. Carry on. Wow! Weakness post ever!
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Post by aztecryan on Oct 31, 2020 14:02:50 GMT -8
The UK just banned all international travel. Not a half-ass measure which exceptions to entire populations. All outbound international travel.
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Post by ptsdthor on Oct 31, 2020 14:09:59 GMT -8
If you believe the Covid situation in the US is hopelessly out of control, why would the progressive and wonderful minds running our Universities put the lives of their students, coaches and support staff at risk and allow them to play football?
And if you feel they should not play, where is the collective outrage?
And if you are ok with them playing, you must think the risk to their health is worth it for some reason. And please expound on those reasons.
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Post by Al-O-Meter on Oct 31, 2020 16:05:11 GMT -8
The UK just banned all international travel. Not a half-ass measure which exceptions to entire populations. All outbound international travel. Yes they did. They have also closed all non-essential business and forbid anyone from leaving their house except for state-sanctioned essential activities. They have had national mask mandates for months and were operating under a tiered system that restricts freedoms and has decimated their economy even before announcing the new draconian imprisonment of their population. Meanwhile there is a country no too far away from the UK that isn't locked down, doesn't wear masks, has weathered the global economic downturn better than almost every other country, has kids in schools, and had zero deaths from coronavirus deaths in the most recent reporting period. Hmmmm.....which model should we follow? Lock everyone down like a gulag nation and let the people die or open everything up while directing all resources toward protecting the vulnerable population?
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Post by johneaztec on Oct 31, 2020 16:05:19 GMT -8
If you believe the Covid situation in the US is hopelessly out of control, why would the progressive and wonderful minds running our Universities put the lives of their students, coaches and support staff at risk and allow them to play football? And if you feel they should not play, where is the collective outrage? And if you are ok with them playing, you must think the risk to their health is worth it for some reason. And please expound on those reasons. Good point.
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