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Post by aztec70 on Oct 21, 2010 17:59:41 GMT -8
My best friend from one of my high schools was Keith. After he graduated he went to work as a printer operating a Linotype. That work died out and he became a logger and then a factory worker. When he was about 30 something the factory went out of business and he was laid off. Married with three kids. He had to go on welfare. The state government said you are a bright guy and did pretty good in high school, we have a program where we will pay your tuition and books at the local college and you can become a teacher.
My very Republican relatives were outraged. How and why did the State want to do something so wrong. I pointed out that when he got out and became a teacher he would make more money than before and would pay more taxes over his lifetime.
That argument went nowhere with them. That was not important, nor the issue. The issue was the State paying for a man on welfare to go to college. It was an outrage.
Well, Keith has been teaching for 25 years now. Makes about 50 thousand, which is good money for the rural midwest. A respected member of the community. Put his kids through college, one is a lawyer. I call that a success story for liberalism.
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Post by The Aztec Panther on Oct 21, 2010 19:12:59 GMT -8
Huh. Funny thing - since I'm employed and making about that much money I can't get those programs to finish my education (I would have to quit my job since several of the required classes don't fit in any available work schedule). Maybe I should get laid off and go on welfare, eh? Then the state could pay me to go to school and get my degree. I was going to school to be a teacher in the first place...
In some ways that story pisses me off. I had to quit school because I literally had no way to fit several classes into my work schedule. To finish my degree would have required me to quit my job, file for bankruptcy, and lose almost everything I had. So instead I did the responsible thing and continued to support my family, paying taxes so OTHER people could get their education partially subsidized by me.
Nice.
See, there are other sides to stories like that. People like me have to pay for people like your friend to go to school while we cannot afford to do so ourselves. (And that goes along with what I was talking about on the other thread - taking away the possibility of failure, which puts a larger burdon on those who are actually working.)
Is that fundamentally fair?
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Post by ptsdthor on Oct 21, 2010 19:46:02 GMT -8
Gee, what about the people that I know who started in the construction industry in the 70s and 80's as framers, masons, etc, and now, because of liberal immigration policies, can't support their family because manual labor jobs can be given to less expensive illegal aliens? I have two male relatives and their families in that boat.
And how about the people who, when they needed help using welfare, found themselves unwilling to get off because for every dollar the earned apart from Welfare, their benefits were reduced. So, for them, it became a lifestyle on the underground "cash only" economy to job the system. See LA County if you doubt it's impact.
My brother-in-law's family chased state program after program until benefits ran-out and then they ran across the US looking for the best situation, starting in CA, on to Nevada and they settled in NY. And now, they have second and third generations that knows no other form of subsistence.
And how about the poverty that is passed from generation to generation as the welfare state rewards women who have children without reporting the father's name? Her "live-in" avoids child support and she gets aid. I know a nurse who works in a hospital and says that it happens continually (and with the "man" standing right there with the mother).
And how about people who have not put a dime into Social Security or Medicare in their entire life, but, with a green card and being the right age, they get access to both?
And how about the Liberalism that causes cities (like San Diego) or states (Like New York, New Jersey or California) to be next to bankruptcy paying out overly generous Union or Civil Servant pensions and welfare benefits?
Liberalism helps some to "bounce up" but many get caught in its net, damaging families and bilking the tax payer for the sake of favored constituencies.
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Post by ptsdthor on Oct 21, 2010 20:17:31 GMT -8
Huh. Funny thing - since I'm employed and making about that much money I can't get those programs to finish my education (I would have to quit my job since several of the required classes don't fit in any available work schedule). Maybe I should get laid off and go on welfare, eh? Then the state could pay me to go to school and get my degree. I was going to school to be a teacher in the first place... In some ways that story pisses me off. I had to quit school because I literally had no way to fit several classes into my work schedule. To finish my degree would have required me to quit my job, file for bankruptcy, and lose almost everything I had. So instead I did the responsible thing and continued to support my family, paying taxes so OTHER people could get their education partially subsidized by me. Nice. See, there are other sides to stories like that. People like me have to pay for people like your friend to go to school while we cannot afford to do so ourselves. (And that goes along with what I was talking about on the other thread - taking away the possibility of failure, which puts a larger burdon on those who are actually working.) Is that fundamentally fair? I always marveled on how Democrat Senators and Congressman would go to DC, send their kids to private schools, but simultaneously rail against the concept of vouchers so the middle class can't have their options for access to improved education. Liberalism is so generous.... |
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Post by aztec70 on Oct 21, 2010 20:30:08 GMT -8
Huh. Funny thing - since I'm employed and making about that much money I can't get those programs to finish my education (I would have to quit my job since several of the required classes don't fit in any available work schedule). Maybe I should get laid off and go on welfare, eh? Then the state could pay me to go to school and get my degree. I was going to school to be a teacher in the first place... In some ways that story pisses me off. I had to quit school because I literally had no way to fit several classes into my work schedule. To finish my degree would have required me to quit my job, file for bankruptcy, and lose almost everything I had. So instead I did the responsible thing and continued to support my family, paying taxes so OTHER people could get their education partially subsidized by me. Nice. See, there are other sides to stories like that. People like me have to pay for people like your friend to go to school while we cannot afford to do so ourselves. (And that goes along with what I was talking about on the other thread - taking away the possibility of failure, which puts a larger burdon on those who are actually working.) Is that fundamentally fair? Yes. Keith, and his college educated kids, are paying more taxes than you. They are putting more into the economy than you. That is how investments work. You pay now, but get back much more later. I don't know your situation. So I don't know why you could not have quit that job and found one that would suit your education situation, gotten student loans, I have known of people moving back with their parents to save money so they could go to school. I don't know your situation. Your bitterness that someone could better themselves through a government program is sad. |
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Post by aztec70 on Oct 21, 2010 20:38:04 GMT -8
Gee, what about the people that I know who started in the construction industry in the 70s and 80's as framers, masons, etc, and now, because of liberal immigration policies, can't support their family because manual labor jobs can be given to less expensive illegal aliens? I have two male relatives and their families in that boat. And how about the people who, when they needed help using welfare, found themselves unwilling to get off because for every dollar the earned apart from Welfare, their benefits were reduced. So, for them, it became a lifestyle on the underground "cash only" economy to job the system. See LA County if you doubt it's impact. My brother-in-law's family chased state program after program until benefits ran-out and then they ran across the US looking for the best situation, starting in CA, on to Nevada and they settled in NY. And now, they have second and third generations that knows no other form of subsistence. And how about the poverty that is passed from generation to generation as the welfare state rewards women who have children without reporting the father's name? Her "live-in" avoids child support and she gets aid. And how about people who have not put a dime into Social Security or Medicare in their entire life, but, with a green card and being the right age, they get access to both? And how about the Liberalism that causes cities (like San Diego) or states (Like New York, New Jersey or California) to be next to bankruptcy paying out overly generous Union or Civil Servant pensions and welfare benefits? Liberalism helps some to "bounce up" but many get caught in its net, damaging families and bilking the tax payer for the sake of favored constituencies. Gosh, I don't know. All I can say is that my high school educated brother-in-law who became a roofer in the 1970's went on to form his own framing company. Later a large national company that he was subcontracting for hired him as a supervisor. He went up from there. Never went to college. Did I mention he is a liberal? Maybe he was more motivated than your relatives. I don't know. |
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Post by ptsdthor on Oct 21, 2010 20:45:33 GMT -8
Gee, what about the people that I know who started in the construction industry in the 70s and 80's as framers, masons, etc, and now, because of liberal immigration policies, can't support their family because manual labor jobs can be given to less expensive illegal aliens? I have two male relatives and their families in that boat. And how about the people who, when they needed help using welfare, found themselves unwilling to get off because for every dollar the earned apart from Welfare, their benefits were reduced. So, for them, it became a lifestyle on the underground "cash only" economy to job the system. See LA County if you doubt it's impact. My brother-in-law's family chased state program after program until benefits ran-out and then they ran across the US looking for the best situation, starting in CA, on to Nevada and they settled in NY. And now, they have second and third generations that knows no other form of subsistence. And how about the poverty that is passed from generation to generation as the welfare state rewards women who have children without reporting the father's name? Her "live-in" avoids child support and she gets aid. And how about people who have not put a dime into Social Security or Medicare in their entire life, but, with a green card and being the right age, they get access to both? And how about the Liberalism that causes cities (like San Diego) or states (Like New York, New Jersey or California) to be next to bankruptcy paying out overly generous Union or Civil Servant pensions and welfare benefits? Liberalism helps some to "bounce up" but many get caught in its net, damaging families and bilking the tax payer for the sake of favored constituencies. Gosh, I don't know. All I can say is that my high school educated brother-in-law who became a roofer in the 1970's went on to form his own framing company. Later a large national company that he was subcontracting for hired him as a supervisor. He went up from there. Never went to college. Did I mention he is a liberal? Maybe he was more motivated than your relatives. I don't know. He went from a working class hero as a laborer to a Petite bourgeois exploiter of the masses? Say it aint so!  |
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Post by aztec70 on Oct 21, 2010 21:09:29 GMT -8
Gosh, I don't know. All I can say is that my high school educated brother-in-law who became a roofer in the 1970's went on to form his own framing company. Later a large national company that he was subcontracting for hired him as a supervisor. He went up from there. Never went to college. Did I mention he is a liberal? Maybe he was more motivated than your relatives. I don't know. He went from a working class hero as a laborer to a Petite bourgeois exploiter of the masses? Say it aint so! Ah, so you resent successful people? What does that say about you? |
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Post by ptsdthor on Oct 21, 2010 21:33:56 GMT -8
He went from a working class hero as a laborer to a Petite bourgeois exploiter of the masses? Say it aint so! Ah, so you resent successful people? What does that say about you? Hardly, I love successful people. The sarcasm was directed to the class warfare idiots in the Whitehouse. The economy is built on rewarding successful people. |
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Post by The Aztec Panther on Oct 21, 2010 22:09:55 GMT -8
Huh. Funny thing - since I'm employed and making about that much money I can't get those programs to finish my education (I would have to quit my job since several of the required classes don't fit in any available work schedule). Maybe I should get laid off and go on welfare, eh? Then the state could pay me to go to school and get my degree. I was going to school to be a teacher in the first place... In some ways that story pisses me off. I had to quit school because I literally had no way to fit several classes into my work schedule. To finish my degree would have required me to quit my job, file for bankruptcy, and lose almost everything I had. So instead I did the responsible thing and continued to support my family, paying taxes so OTHER people could get their education partially subsidized by me. Nice. See, there are other sides to stories like that. People like me have to pay for people like your friend to go to school while we cannot afford to do so ourselves. (And that goes along with what I was talking about on the other thread - taking away the possibility of failure, which puts a larger burdon on those who are actually working.) Is that fundamentally fair? Yes. Keith, and his college educated kids, are paying more taxes than you. They are putting more into the economy than you. Awfully presumptuous and arrogant of you, isn't that? Not to mention insulting and demeaning. You don't know how much I pay in taxes... Dude, I'm 42 years old. I had to give up college at age 30 when I had financial responsibilities. Work and paying the bills has to come first. I can't exactly move my family in with either of my parents for 4 years. I wasn't going to sponge off of them for that long back then, and at this point I'm too old to go back anyway (I'd likely have to start all over as most of my classes are too old anyway - they date back to the mid 80's.) Quitting a good paying job without a means of support would have been totally irresponsible. That kind of thing works when you're in your early or mid 20's, but once you hit 30 you've got to be responsible. And I'm not bitter that someone bettered themselves, only that people like me who would love to do the same (but can't do it for a multitude of reasons) have to pay for them to do it. I've gotten next to nothing back on all the taxes that I've paid over the last 24 or so years, and the only time I will get anything back will be when I retire. And really, I'm fine with that. I want to take care of myself. It doesn't take a village - it takes an individual who has a personal sense of responsibility and work ethic. Liberals don't get that. |
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Post by aztec70 on Oct 22, 2010 6:43:37 GMT -8
Yes. Keith, and his college educated kids, are paying more taxes than you. They are putting more into the economy than you. Awfully presumptuous and arrogant of you, isn't that? Not to mention insulting and demeaning. You don't know how much I pay in taxes... Dude, I'm 42 years old. I had to give up college at age 30 when I had financial responsibilities. Work and paying the bills has to come first. I can't exactly move my family in with either of my parents for 4 years. I wasn't going to sponge off of them for that long back then, and at this point I'm too old to go back anyway (I'd likely have to start all over as most of my classes are too old anyway - they date back to the mid 80's.) Quitting a good paying job without a means of support would have been totally irresponsible. That kind of thing works when you're in your early or mid 20's, but once you hit 30 you've got to be responsible. And I'm not bitter that someone bettered themselves, only that people like me who would love to do the same (but can't do it for a multitude of reasons) have to pay for them to do it. I've gotten next to nothing back on all the taxes that I've paid over the last 24 or so years, and the only time I will get anything back will be when I retire. And really, I'm fine with that. I want to take care of myself. It doesn't take a village - it takes an individual who has a personal sense of responsibility and work ethic. Liberals don't get that. As to your taxes. You told me you make the same as my friend. So I know what you make. You said you had a family. I have an idea of what your standard deduction would be. I don't know how many kids so I can't know your exemptions. Nonetheless, since I have prepared thousands of tax returns I think I can come up with a good idea of what you pay in taxes. Don't forget that Keith was able to send his kids to college and they are paying taxes too. As to the village. Your problem is that you did not take advantage of what a village is. It is a support network. Too bad you have bought into the man against the world conservative ethic. Civilization is not man alone, but man together. That's how we all get better. Conservatives don't get that. |
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Post by The Aztec Panther on Oct 22, 2010 7:35:12 GMT -8
Awfully presumptuous and arrogant of you, isn't that? Not to mention insulting and demeaning. You don't know how much I pay in taxes... Dude, I'm 42 years old. I had to give up college at age 30 when I had financial responsibilities. Work and paying the bills has to come first. I can't exactly move my family in with either of my parents for 4 years. I wasn't going to sponge off of them for that long back then, and at this point I'm too old to go back anyway (I'd likely have to start all over as most of my classes are too old anyway - they date back to the mid 80's.) Quitting a good paying job without a means of support would have been totally irresponsible. That kind of thing works when you're in your early or mid 20's, but once you hit 30 you've got to be responsible. And I'm not bitter that someone bettered themselves, only that people like me who would love to do the same (but can't do it for a multitude of reasons) have to pay for them to do it. I've gotten next to nothing back on all the taxes that I've paid over the last 24 or so years, and the only time I will get anything back will be when I retire. And really, I'm fine with that. I want to take care of myself. It doesn't take a village - it takes an individual who has a personal sense of responsibility and work ethic. Liberals don't get that. As to your taxes. You told me you make the same as my friend. So I know what you make. You said you had a family. I have an idea of what your standard deduction would be. I don't know how many kids so I can't know your exemptions. One kid, not much in the way of exemptions. Good God - how can anyone have a sense of pride of accomplishment when others pay their way? Civilization is man togehter? What a load of garbage. What you're talking about is man sponging off of society. If you have the capability to take care of yourself you have an OBLIGATION to society to do so rather than taking handouts. I refuse to let the State become my parent. The State isn't all knowing, all wise, and all powerful. The State is a necessary evil. I mean, look at it this way - I couldn't qualify for state handouts to pay for my schooling because I had a decent paying job. But someone else who made even worse decisions than I did can get those handouts to pay for his schooling. Is that fair? I would have had to quit my job, file for bankruptcy, and lose everything in order to qualify for those handouts - if I were even willing to take them in the first place. So I'm paying for people like that to be handed on a silver platter what I just wanted to work for. Is that really fair and just? And that money that I'm paying out in taxes is what I'd like to be putting into my daughter's college fund - but can't because I'm barely scraping by. If I got to keep even half of that tax money I could put it away for her so she could achieve what I was unable to - and without going to the government for a handout. |
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Post by AlwaysAnAztec on Oct 22, 2010 7:50:18 GMT -8
Dude, I'm 42 years old. I had to give up college at age 30 when I had financial responsibilities. Work and paying the bills has to come first. I can't exactly move my family in with either of my parents for 4 years. I wasn't going to sponge off of them for that long back then, and at this point I'm too old to go back anyway (I'd likely have to start all over as most of my classes are too old anyway - they date back to the mid 80's.) Quitting a good paying job without a means of support would have been totally irresponsible. That kind of thing works when you're in your early or mid 20's, but once you hit 30 you've got to be responsible. You are NOT too old to go back to school. I received my master's at 44. My wife worked full time, went to school part time, and received her teaching credential at 38. If you want to do it you can. You just have to do it. Good Luck. |
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Post by The Aztec Panther on Oct 22, 2010 8:08:30 GMT -8
You are NOT too old to go back to school. I received my master's at 44. My wife worked full time, went to school part time, and received her teaching credential at 38. Not everyone is in the same position. Some people have the support systems in place to allow them to go back to school, and some don't. I've always said, "More power to you," to anyone who can go back to school and get his or her degree. That's an overly simplified view. Life is rarely that simple (there would be a rather steep price to pay for, "Just doing it," and I'm not willing to pay that price - and my family shouldn't have to pay it, either). Look, I'm doing OK. I'm not destitute. I've got a decent job (even if it is a bit of a dead end without a degree), and I can support my family. That's what really counts. I'm not going to blame anyone else for my bad judgment as a 19 year old, and I'm not going to expect the government to make my life better. My life is OK as it is. And this isn't about me - except for the fact that I pay a lot in taxes and get next to nothing back for it. Other people pay far less (like, say, nothing) and get a lot back. That isn't fundamentally fair, but liberals seem to think it's OK. It's not. |
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Post by waztec on Oct 23, 2010 8:12:57 GMT -8
Yes. Keith, and his college educated kids, are paying more taxes than you. They are putting more into the economy than you. Awfully presumptuous and arrogant of you, isn't that? Not to mention insulting and demeaning. You don't know how much I pay in taxes... Dude, I'm 42 years old. I had to give up college at age 30 when I had financial responsibilities. Work and paying the bills has to come first. I can't exactly move my family in with either of my parents for 4 years. I wasn't going to sponge off of them for that long back then, and at this point I'm too old to go back anyway (I'd likely have to start all over as most of my classes are too old anyway - they date back to the mid 80's.) Quitting a good paying job without a means of support would have been totally irresponsible. That kind of thing works when you're in your early or mid 20's, but once you hit 30 you've got to be responsible. And I'm not bitter that someone bettered themselves, only that people like me who would love to do the same (but can't do it for a multitude of reasons) have to pay for them to do it. I've gotten next to nothing back on all the taxes that I've paid over the last 24 or so years, and the only time I will get anything back will be when I retire. And really, I'm fine with that. I want to take care of myself. It doesn't take a village - it takes an individual who has a personal sense of responsibility and work ethic. Liberals don't get that. I am sorry that it was hard for you to finish your education. I finished mine. I spent thirteen years obtaining my first degree. I was delayed for three years because my wife was assaulted while I was attending class and she was terrified for me to be out of the house. I made horrible wages (about 40% of what people with similar skills were making) so I had to move, often. And I moved from Chicago to San Diego to Fresno to San Francisco to Reno to San Fransisco and to Seattle in an attempt to feed my wife and son. Most of the time I had to live in lousy places because we could not afford to rent something decent. (You can see one if you like. I lived at 18th and Lanoitan in National City. The second house South of 18th on the East side) We shopped in thrift stores. And at each location (after the three year delay due to the assault) I went to school at night usually commuting over one hundred miles round trip. I would leave for work at six thirty AM, work for eleven hours and return home at about eleven thirty PM. I got the degree. I was fortunate because I was a business major and I never had to study hard. When I was forty five, I enrolled at the U.of Washington and did it again. I was terrified that I would not compete well. But I summoned the courage and tried anyway. This time, not the oldest guy in class, graduated with honors. I have gotten a great deal back from my taxes and I celebrate anyone who can go from welfare to teaching. I know how hard it is, because I did it. No, I did not rely on assistance, but the effort was the same. If I were a Republican, with my experience I would tell you to suck it up and just do it. I did. I am a liberal though, and I know that not everyone is able to make the sacrifice I made. I know how hard it is and that is why I am a liberal.I would say to you is that you are an obviously intelligent person who is not too old to go back to school. I encourage you to give it a shot. It is worth it.  |
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Post by The Aztec Panther on Oct 23, 2010 8:20:05 GMT -8
Awfully presumptuous and arrogant of you, isn't that? Not to mention insulting and demeaning. You don't know how much I pay in taxes... Dude, I'm 42 years old. I had to give up college at age 30 when I had financial responsibilities. Work and paying the bills has to come first. I can't exactly move my family in with either of my parents for 4 years. I wasn't going to sponge off of them for that long back then, and at this point I'm too old to go back anyway (I'd likely have to start all over as most of my classes are too old anyway - they date back to the mid 80's.) Quitting a good paying job without a means of support would have been totally irresponsible. That kind of thing works when you're in your early or mid 20's, but once you hit 30 you've got to be responsible. And I'm not bitter that someone bettered themselves, only that people like me who would love to do the same (but can't do it for a multitude of reasons) have to pay for them to do it. I've gotten next to nothing back on all the taxes that I've paid over the last 24 or so years, and the only time I will get anything back will be when I retire. And really, I'm fine with that. I want to take care of myself. It doesn't take a village - it takes an individual who has a personal sense of responsibility and work ethic. Liberals don't get that. I am sorry that it was hard for you to finish your education. I finished mine. I spent thirteen years obtaining my first degree. I was delayed for three years because my wife was assaulted while I was attending class and she was terrified for me to be out of the house. I made horrible wages (about 40% of what people with similar skills were making) so I had to move, often. And I moved from Chicago to San Diego to Fresno to San Francisco to Reno to San Fransisco and to Seattle in an attempt to feed my wife and son. Most of the time I had to live in lousy places because we could not afford to rent something decent. We shopped in thrift stores. And at each location (after the three year delay due to the assault) I went to school at night usually commuting over one hundred miles round trip. I would leave for work at six thirty AM, work for eleven hours and return home at about eleven thirty PM. I got the degree. I was fortunate because I was a business major and I never had to study hard. When I was forty five, I enrolled at the U.of Washington and did it again. I was terrified that I would not compete well. But I summoned the courage and tried anyway. This time, not the oldest guy in class, graduated with honors. I have gotten a great deal back from my taxes and I celebrate anyone who can go from welfare to teaching. I know how hard it is, because I did it. No, I did not rely on assistance, but the effort was the same. If I were a Republican, with my experience I would tell you to suck it up and just do it. I did. I am a liberal though, and I know that not everyone is able to make the sacrifice I made. I know how hard it is and that is why I am a liberal.I would say to you is that you are an obviously intelligent person who is not too old to go back to school. I encourage you to give it a shot. It is worth it. There is no way for me to do it short of filing for bankruptcy and losing my home and probably ending up with some even higher personal costs. I know how hard it is and that's why I'm a conservative. It's all about taking responsibility for yourself and paying your own way when you have the ability to do so. I have the ability to do so (I may not be able to go back to college, but I can support my family). I just wish that more people took responsibility for themselves and didn't blame others or blame society for their lots in life. If you make bad decisions there should be negative consequences for you. |
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Post by waztec on Oct 23, 2010 8:25:39 GMT -8
I am sorry that it was hard for you to finish your education. I finished mine. I spent thirteen years obtaining my first degree. I was delayed for three years because my wife was assaulted while I was attending class and she was terrified for me to be out of the house. I made horrible wages (about 40% of what people with similar skills were making) so I had to move, often. And I moved from Chicago to San Diego to Fresno to San Francisco to Reno to San Fransisco and to Seattle in an attempt to feed my wife and son. Most of the time I had to live in lousy places because we could not afford to rent something decent. We shopped in thrift stores. And at each location (after the three year delay due to the assault) I went to school at night usually commuting over one hundred miles round trip. I would leave for work at six thirty AM, work for eleven hours and return home at about eleven thirty PM. I got the degree. I was fortunate because I was a business major and I never had to study hard. When I was forty five, I enrolled at the U.of Washington and did it again. I was terrified that I would not compete well. But I summoned the courage and tried anyway. This time, not the oldest guy in class, graduated with honors. I have gotten a great deal back from my taxes and I celebrate anyone who can go from welfare to teaching. I know how hard it is, because I did it. No, I did not rely on assistance, but the effort was the same. If I were a Republican, with my experience I would tell you to suck it up and just do it. I did. I am a liberal though, and I know that not everyone is able to make the sacrifice I made. I know how hard it is and that is why I am a liberal.I would say to you is that you are an obviously intelligent person who is not too old to go back to school. I encourage you to give it a shot. It is worth it. There is no way for me to do it short of filing for bankruptcy and losing my home and probably ending up with some even higher personal costs. I know how hard it is and that's why I'm a conservative. It's all about taking responsibility for yourself and paying your own way when you have the ability to do so. I have the ability to do so (I may not be able to go back to college, but I can support my family). I just wish that more people took responsibility for themselves and didn't blame others or blame society for their lots in life. If you make bad decisions there should be negative consequences for you. You owned a house? I am impressed. I would not have been able to swing a house on a bet. I was 43 When I bought the only house I have ever owned. You say you want more people to take responsibility. I did what you said people should do and I am a liberal precisely because of the experience!!!!I have to tell you that I believe I have considerable credibility when it comes to the personal responsibility that all you conservatives say you love. |
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Post by The Aztec Panther on Oct 23, 2010 8:37:21 GMT -8
Own. Present tense.  Well, I had to move 60 miles from work to do it (to find a house I could afford), but I figured it was worth the drive if I could buy a house. But, you see, taking responsibility and doing for yourself rather than going after government assistance is a CONSERVATIVE philosophy and value. Liberals tell you that the government is there to help you when you make mistakes. Liberals (I'm not talking about you, but rather the liberals in power - the ones who affect our lives) tell us that government should be one big safety net to offset any and all personal mistakes you make. Equality of outcome regardless of the effort put in and regardless of how many mistakes you make (and regardless of how big/bad those mistakes are). I strongly disagree with that philosophy. |
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Post by waztec on Oct 23, 2010 8:42:00 GMT -8
Own. Present tense. Well, I had to move 60 miles from work to do it (to find a house I could afford), but I figured it was worth the drive if I could buy a house. But, you see, taking responsibility and doing for yourself rather than going after government assistance is a CONSERVATIVE philosophy and value. Liberals tell you that the government is there to help you when you make mistakes. Liberals (I'm not talking about you, but rather the liberals in power - the ones who affect our lives) tell us that government should be one big safety net to offset any and all personal mistakes you make. Equality of outcome regardless of the effort put in and regardless of how many mistakes you make (and regardless of how big/bad those mistakes are). I strongly disagree with that philosophy. Don't you get it? I have lived life the way you paragons of personal responsibility said I should. I did it your way, successfully, and became a liberal! What does that tell you? I would find it extremely disturbing. I should be a champion of your cause, but I detest it. |
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Post by The Aztec Panther on Oct 23, 2010 8:59:16 GMT -8
Own. Present tense. Well, I had to move 60 miles from work to do it (to find a house I could afford), but I figured it was worth the drive if I could buy a house. But, you see, taking responsibility and doing for yourself rather than going after government assistance is a CONSERVATIVE philosophy and value. Liberals tell you that the government is there to help you when you make mistakes. Liberals (I'm not talking about you, but rather the liberals in power - the ones who affect our lives) tell us that government should be one big safety net to offset any and all personal mistakes you make. Equality of outcome regardless of the effort put in and regardless of how many mistakes you make (and regardless of how big/bad those mistakes are). I strongly disagree with that philosophy. Don't you get it? I have lived life the way you paragons of personal responsibility said I should. I did it your way and became a liberal! What does that tell you? I would find it disturbing. I should be a champion of your cause, but I detest it. You're living a contradiction. You detest conservative values, yet those were the values you lived by. Hard work, determination, and NOT accepting handouts (unless absolutely necessary to survive) is what conservatives believe in. Conservatives believe in creating an economic environment that allows businesses not just to survive, but to thrive and grow (thus creating jobs). Liberals belive in taxing those who achieve to transfer that money to those who do not (because the liberal elites belive that there is an underclass that cannot achieve on their own, so they treat them like children and give them their weekly allowance to get by). Conservatives believe that ANYONE can succeed if they work hard enough and make good decisions. You sound like a conservative. You've just got this bug against conservativism for some reason. It sounds like you have a HUGE misconception about what conservatives believe in (based, I'll bet, on the usual misinformation provided in the media and in colleges by the left). Conservatives are painted as selfish, uncaring people, but nothing could be farther from the truth. Conservatives just believe that people feel better about themselves, and achieve more, when they make it on their own. Conservatives want to set up an economy and a society where that is possible. They want to make sure people have resources to learn how to succeed on their own. Look at California. That's liberalism at work. A bankrupt state that's only headed further down the toilet due to the liberals that have run the state for the last 10 or 12 years. Their overspending and overtaxation have ruined what was a great economy just 15 years ago. Businesses have left the state by the thousands (many of them large businesses who employed hundreds or even thousands of employees). They wouldn't have spent the money to do that if there weren't other states with much lower tax rates. The loss of all those jobs has left California with one of the highest unemployment rates in the entire country. (Yes, I know the economy of the entire world has been bad, but California has seen some of the largest job losses in the entire country during that time.) You have conservative values. Embrace that. It's a good thing. |
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