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Post by waztec on Oct 23, 2010 9:14:39 GMT -8
Don't you get it? I have lived life the way you paragons of personal responsibility said I should. I did it your way and became a liberal! What does that tell you? I would find it disturbing. I should be a champion of your cause, but I detest it. You're living a contradiction. You detest conservative values, yet those were the values you lived by. Hard work, determination, and NOT accepting handouts (unless absolutely necessary to survive) is what conservatives believe in. Conservatives believe in creating an economic environment that allows businesses not just to survive, but to thrive and grow (thus creating jobs). Liberals belive in taxing those who achieve to transfer that money to those who do not (because the liberal elites belive that there is an underclass that cannot achieve on their own, so they treat them like children and give them their weekly allowance to get by). Conservatives believe that ANYONE can succeed if they work hard enough and make good decisions. You sound like a conservative. You've just got this bug against conservativism for some reason. It sounds like you have a HUGE misconception about what conservatives believe in (based, I'll bet, on the usual misinformation provided in the media and in colleges by the left). Conservatives are painted as selfish, uncaring people, but nothing could be farther from the truth. Conservatives just believe that people feel better about themselves, and achieve more, when they make it on their own. Conservatives want to set up an economy and a society where that is possible. They want to make sure people have resources to learn how to succeed on their own. Look at California. That's liberalism at work. A bankrupt state that's only headed further down the toilet due to the liberals that have run the state for the last 10 or 12 years. Their overspending and overtaxation have ruined what was a great economy just 15 years ago. Businesses have left the state by the thousands (many of them large businesses who employed hundreds or even thousands of employees). They wouldn't have spent the money to do that if there weren't other states with much lower tax rates. The loss of all those jobs has left California with one of the highest unemployment rates in the entire country. (Yes, I know the economy of the entire world has been bad, but California has seen some of the largest job losses in the entire country during that time.) You have conservative values. Embrace that. It's a good thing.  " You're living a contradiction. You detest conservative values, yet those were the values you lived by.
Hard work, determination, and NOT accepting handouts (unless absolutely necessary to survive) is what conservatives believe in." No No No! I lived your life and realized that some people need help to live a dignified life. I realized that the government needs to assist some people and that is OK. It is OK if I have to help provide the support. I learned compassion, because I know how hard it is to do it on your own! I played on your field, lived your morality and found it to be bankrupt. You need an advantage to do it. I had an advantage. |
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Post by The Aztec Panther on Oct 23, 2010 9:31:37 GMT -8
You're living a contradiction. You detest conservative values, yet those were the values you lived by. Hard work, determination, and NOT accepting handouts (unless absolutely necessary to survive) is what conservatives believe in. Conservatives believe in creating an economic environment that allows businesses not just to survive, but to thrive and grow (thus creating jobs). Liberals belive in taxing those who achieve to transfer that money to those who do not (because the liberal elites belive that there is an underclass that cannot achieve on their own, so they treat them like children and give them their weekly allowance to get by). Conservatives believe that ANYONE can succeed if they work hard enough and make good decisions. You sound like a conservative. You've just got this bug against conservativism for some reason. It sounds like you have a HUGE misconception about what conservatives believe in (based, I'll bet, on the usual misinformation provided in the media and in colleges by the left). Conservatives are painted as selfish, uncaring people, but nothing could be farther from the truth. Conservatives just believe that people feel better about themselves, and achieve more, when they make it on their own. Conservatives want to set up an economy and a society where that is possible. They want to make sure people have resources to learn how to succeed on their own. Look at California. That's liberalism at work. A bankrupt state that's only headed further down the toilet due to the liberals that have run the state for the last 10 or 12 years. Their overspending and overtaxation have ruined what was a great economy just 15 years ago. Businesses have left the state by the thousands (many of them large businesses who employed hundreds or even thousands of employees). They wouldn't have spent the money to do that if there weren't other states with much lower tax rates. The loss of all those jobs has left California with one of the highest unemployment rates in the entire country. (Yes, I know the economy of the entire world has been bad, but California has seen some of the largest job losses in the entire country during that time.) You have conservative values. Embrace that. It's a good thing. " You're living a contradiction. You detest conservative values, yet those were the values you lived by.
Hard work, determination, and NOT accepting handouts (unless absolutely necessary to survive) is what conservatives believe in." No No No! I lived your life and realized that some people need help to live a dignified life. I realized that the government needs to assist some people and that is OK. It is OK if I have to help provide the support. I learned compassion, because I know how hard it is to do it on your own! I played on your field, lived your morality and found it to be bankrupt. You need an advantage to do it. I had an advantage. No, you don't need an advantage - you just need to work hard and make good decisions. I had no advantage at all, and yet I have a decent job and own a home. I could have done better, I could be in an even better place, but I made a couple bad decisions that still hurt me 23 years later. My mistakes, no one else's. I shouldn't get other people's money because I made mistakes. Treating people like they are incapable of doing things for themselves becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. If you tell someone that they CAN'T do something they will more often than not believe you and they won't try. I find that to show a lack of compassion, and to be rather condescending. ANYONE can make it. Anyone. They just need to work hard and make good decisions in life. Do you really disagree with that? With all the college scholarships that are available (especially for minorities) all you have to do is bust your ass in school and then your college will be paid for (even conservatives believe in scholarships for academic achievement). And if someone just isn't smart enough to make it to college then they need to get training for skilled labor. Again, that training is available to anyone who wants it and works to get it. I don't have a college degree (even though I'm more than smart enough to have gotten one), and I'm doing OK. I've never had any kind of, "Advantage," over anyone else other than my determination. (OK, I'm smarter than a lot of people, but that hasn't really helped me a whole lot...) I'm not sure what you believe conservative values to be, but I think you've been sold a bogus bill of goods by those on the left who are VERY good at demonizing conservatism. |
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Post by waztec on Oct 23, 2010 9:54:11 GMT -8
" You're living a contradiction. You detest conservative values, yet those were the values you lived by.
Hard work, determination, and NOT accepting handouts (unless absolutely necessary to survive) is what conservatives believe in." No No No! I lived your life and realized that some people need help to live a dignified life. I realized that the government needs to assist some people and that is OK. It is OK if I have to help provide the support. I learned compassion, because I know how hard it is to do it on your own! I played on your field, lived your morality and found it to be bankrupt. You need an advantage to do it. I had an advantage. No, you don't need an advantage - you just need to work hard and make good decisions. I had no advantage at all, and yet I have a decent job and own a home. I could have done better, I could be in an even better place, but I made a couple bad decisions that still hurt me 23 years later. My mistakes, no one else's. I shouldn't get other people's money because I made mistakes. Treating people like they are incapable of doing things for themselves becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. If you tell someone that they CAN'T do something they will more often than not believe you and they won't try. I find that to show a lack of compassion, and to be rather condescending. ANYONE can make it. Anyone. They just need to work hard and make good decisions in life. Do you really disagree with that? With all the college scholarships that are available (especially for minorities) all you have to do is bust your ass in school and then your college will be paid for (even conservatives believe in scholarships for academic achievement). And if someone just isn't smart enough to make it to college then they need to get training for skilled labor. Again, that training is available to anyone who wants it and works to get it. I don't have a college degree (even though I'm more than smart enough to have gotten one), and I'm doing OK. I've never had any kind of, "Advantage," over anyone else other than my determination. (OK, I'm smarter than a lot of people, but that hasn't really helped me a whole lot...) I'm not sure what you believe conservative values to be, but I think you've been sold a bogus bill of goods by those on the left who are VERY good at demonizing conservatism. I disagree. I lived the way you said I should. It was extremely hard and I paid dearly, despite my advantages. I found that economic success goes to those with an advantage. That is why most rich people are conservative. They, understandably, want to keep their advantage. Thus, the word "conserv-ative" applies perfectly. Concentrating society's benefit based solely on advantage is bad for America, in my opinion. If the current trends in concentration continue, we we in for great trouble. I am not trying to be condescending. I feel bad that you think I am. I think that I have acknowledged your talent, which is clear and I have considerable respect for your ability to debate. You cannot be condescending to a person you feel you can respect, despite a difference in opinion. I believe conservatism places far too much blame on the individual for a lack of success, which may or may not have anything to do with their value as humans. If you think that I am weak willed enough and dumb enough to be sold a bill of goods, by anyone, you are sorely mistaken. My posts should make that clear to you. |
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Post by JOCAZTEC on Oct 23, 2010 10:04:46 GMT -8
I call that a success story for liberalism. Don't confuse "Liberalism" with "socialism", please. Taking money without approval to give it to people who don't work is not liberalism. People who want to work, work. People who don't want to work, won't. Excuses follow. HAM |
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Post by JOCAZTEC on Oct 23, 2010 10:14:50 GMT -8
That is why most rich people are conservative. Like George Soros, Oprah Winfrey, Barbara Boxer, Jerry Brown, Diane Fienstein, and name the Hollywood and New Yawk crowd, plus Harry Reid, Nancy Paloose-see...what democratic politician is not rich? By over-taxing, the preclude competition from businesses with the new ideas due to the high cost of capital. Big Oil? Right. If Exxon Mobil reports $23 billion profit, how much of the $14 billion in taxes they pay, do you focus on? You do agree that all of your hard work that leads to accumulating some assets should go to the government and not to provide for your kids on your death? You don't have to be rich to pay the death tax, now do you? Or the sales tax? Or the FICA tax? Or the new health care taxes? Or the gas tax? Or the sales tax on the gas taxes? Or the new California Use tax? Or the SUI tax? Or the SDI tax? Or the State income tax? Or the Federal income tax? Or the UI tax? Or the Self-employment tax? Or the Insurance tax on your social security check? Or the nanny tax if you have a helper in house who makes more than $25 in a calendar quarter? Oh, and the FUTA tax? The excise tax? The real property tax? The personal property tax on every piece of equipment used to produce one job? The hotel tax? The air flight tax? The FCC phone taxes? The utility bill taxes? The oil disposal tax? Is this clear? mAd hAM |
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Post by JOCAZTEC on Oct 23, 2010 10:20:49 GMT -8
Okay so let me correct. The Use tax is not new in California. It was actually implemented in the best time ever to tax citizens: during the Great Depression. Just like the FICA taxes which is currently 15.3 percent of your wages, the California Use tax was created in 1935. The FICA tax took "effect" in 1937 after it was proposed in 1932 thereabouts.
What, you never calculate your paycheck?
Isn't it nice to tax people when they most can't afford it?
Someone offers you a $40 an hour job...don't kid yourself...it's really a $19 an hour job.
mAd hAM
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Post by The Aztec Panther on Oct 23, 2010 12:46:45 GMT -8
No, you don't need an advantage - you just need to work hard and make good decisions. I had no advantage at all, and yet I have a decent job and own a home. I could have done better, I could be in an even better place, but I made a couple bad decisions that still hurt me 23 years later. My mistakes, no one else's. I shouldn't get other people's money because I made mistakes. Treating people like they are incapable of doing things for themselves becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. If you tell someone that they CAN'T do something they will more often than not believe you and they won't try. I find that to show a lack of compassion, and to be rather condescending. ANYONE can make it. Anyone. They just need to work hard and make good decisions in life. Do you really disagree with that? With all the college scholarships that are available (especially for minorities) all you have to do is bust your ass in school and then your college will be paid for (even conservatives believe in scholarships for academic achievement). And if someone just isn't smart enough to make it to college then they need to get training for skilled labor. Again, that training is available to anyone who wants it and works to get it. I don't have a college degree (even though I'm more than smart enough to have gotten one), and I'm doing OK. I've never had any kind of, "Advantage," over anyone else other than my determination. (OK, I'm smarter than a lot of people, but that hasn't really helped me a whole lot...) I'm not sure what you believe conservative values to be, but I think you've been sold a bogus bill of goods by those on the left who are VERY good at demonizing conservatism. I disagree. I lived the way you said I should. It was extremely hard and I paid dearly, despite my advantages. I found that economic success goes to those with an advantage. It goes to those who work hard and make good decisions. I had no advantages. Neither did my dad. He did pretty well for himself. I have a step brother who is doing extremely well, and he didn't have any of these advantages you speak of (I don't even think he's got a degree). The common thread is that we all worked hard and made smart choices. (OK, I made a couple smart choices later on after making a couple of really stupid ones by the time I was 20...)That is a common misconception. Most of the Super Rich are liberals. Why? Because they feel guilty that they have so much while so many have so little. Did you know, for example, that the richest Senators in Washington are almost all Democrats? Did you know that the average Democratic Senator's net worth is about double that of the average Republican's? Kind of interesting, isn't it? The current trends were put in place by Lyndon Johnson with his, "Great Society," programs. He helped perpetuate the underclass of society by making so many of them dependent on government rather than helping them become self-sufficient. That's cruel. That takes away ALL of their self respect and sense of self worth. Liberals see them as people who, "Can't," while Conservatives see them as people who, "Can," achieve success. Which group thinks more of those people? The ones who don't believe in them or the ones who do? I never said YOU were being condescending. I said liberals in general are. There are exceptions to every rule - and you are an exception. Probably because of the conservative values you applied to your life to get you where you are today. Success or failure doesn't have anything to do with anyone's value as a human being. It does say a lot about the choices that they've made, though, and how much wisdom they have or have not shown in their lives. There should always be a way for someone to improve his or her life. Whether it's going back to college or going to a technical school and getting new job skills, those options should always be there. Conservatives believe in that wholeheartedly. I don't know why you don't get that. Conservatives are not cold hearted and cruel. I think Conservatives show more respect to people than liberals do since it's the conservatives who believe that anyone can improve their lot in life if they work hard and make the right decisions. Liberals don't believe that people can do that for themselves, which is why they act like they know better and need to hold peoples' hands and tell them what to do and how to do it. Liberals, "Know better," than the rest of us do, apparently. That's why I said you were sold a false bill of goods. Conservatives care just as much as liberals do, they just believe in people (and their ability to help themselves) more than liberals do. |
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Post by waztec on Oct 23, 2010 12:58:03 GMT -8
I disagree. I lived the way you said I should. It was extremely hard and I paid dearly, despite my advantages. I found that economic success goes to those with an advantage. It goes to those who work hard and make good decisions. I had no advantages. Neither did my dad. He did pretty well for himself. I have a step brother who is doing extremely well, and he didn't have any of these advantages you speak of (I don't even think he's got a degree). The common thread is that we all worked hard and made smart choices. (OK, I made a couple smart choices later on after making a couple of really stupid ones by the time I was 20...)That is a common misconception. Most of the Super Rich are liberals. Why? Because they feel guilty that they have so much while so many have so little. Did you know, for example, that the richest Senators in Washington are almost all Democrats? Did you know that the average Democratic Senator's net worth is about double that of the average Republican's? Kind of interesting, isn't it? The current trends were put in place by Lyndon Johnson with his, "Great Society," programs. He helped perpetuate the underclass of society by making so many of them dependent on government rather than helping them become self-sufficient. That's cruel. That takes away ALL of their self respect and sense of self worth. Liberals see them as people who, "Can't," while Conservatives see them as people who, "Can," achieve success. Which group thinks more of those people? The ones who don't believe in them or the ones who do? I never said YOU were being condescending. I said liberals in general are. There are exceptions to every rule - and you are an exception. Probably because of the conservative values you applied to your life to get you where you are today. Success or failure doesn't have anything to do with anyone's value as a human being. It does say a lot about the choices that they've made, though, and how much wisdom they have or have not shown in their lives. There should always be a way for someone to improve his or her life. Whether it's going back to college or going to a technical school and getting new job skills, those options should always be there. Conservatives believe in that wholeheartedly. I don't know why you don't get that. Conservatives are not cold hearted and cruel. I think Conservatives show more respect to people than liberals do since it's the conservatives who believe that anyone can improve their lot in life if they work hard and make the right decisions. Liberals don't believe that people can do that for themselves, which is why they act like they know better and need to hold peoples' hands and tell them what to do and how to do it. Liberals, "Know better," than the rest of us do, apparently. That's why I said you were sold a false bill of goods. Conservatives care just as much as liberals do, they just believe in people (and their ability to help themselves) more than liberals do. I repudiate conservative thought, because it is, in my estimation at its foundation, selfish. I never saw conservatism actually help anyone. The work harder or be worthless trope is a fraud. It does not work for too many people, without some help. Now, I am bored again. We are not changing any minds here. If living conservative ideals didn't convince me, you won't. Thank you for the stimulating, discussion. You are a good foil. |
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Post by davdesid on Oct 23, 2010 13:01:17 GMT -8
It goes to those who work hard and make good decisions. I had no advantages. Neither did my dad. He did pretty well for himself. I have a step brother who is doing extremely well, and he didn't have any of these advantages you speak of (I don't even think he's got a degree). The common thread is that we all worked hard and made smart choices. (OK, I made a couple smart choices later on after making a couple of really stupid ones by the time I was 20...)That is a common misconception. Most of the Super Rich are liberals. Why? Because they feel guilty that they have so much while so many have so little. Did you know, for example, that the richest Senators in Washington are almost all Democrats? Did you know that the average Democratic Senator's net worth is about double that of the average Republican's? Kind of interesting, isn't it? The current trends were put in place by Lyndon Johnson with his, "Great Society," programs. He helped perpetuate the underclass of society by making so many of them dependent on government rather than helping them become self-sufficient. That's cruel. That takes away ALL of their self respect and sense of self worth. Liberals see them as people who, "Can't," while Conservatives see them as people who, "Can," achieve success. Which group thinks more of those people? The ones who don't believe in them or the ones who do? I never said YOU were being condescending. I said liberals in general are. There are exceptions to every rule - and you are an exception. Probably because of the conservative values you applied to your life to get you where you are today. Success or failure doesn't have anything to do with anyone's value as a human being. It does say a lot about the choices that they've made, though, and how much wisdom they have or have not shown in their lives. There should always be a way for someone to improve his or her life. Whether it's going back to college or going to a technical school and getting new job skills, those options should always be there. Conservatives believe in that wholeheartedly. I don't know why you don't get that. Conservatives are not cold hearted and cruel. I think Conservatives show more respect to people than liberals do since it's the conservatives who believe that anyone can improve their lot in life if they work hard and make the right decisions. Liberals don't believe that people can do that for themselves, which is why they act like they know better and need to hold peoples' hands and tell them what to do and how to do it. Liberals, "Know better," than the rest of us do, apparently. That's why I said you were sold a false bill of goods. Conservatives care just as much as liberals do, they just believe in people (and their ability to help themselves) more than liberals do. I repudiate conservative thought, because it is, in my estimation at its foundation, selfish. I never saw conservatism actually help anyone. The work harder or be worthless trope is a fraud. It does not work for too many people, without some help. Now, I am bored again. We are not changing any minds here. If living conservative ideals didn't convince me, you won't. Oh, c'mon! I consider myself 'conservative'. I raided my IRA in order to contribute to Katrina relief. Was that 'selfish'? |
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Post by The Aztec Panther on Oct 23, 2010 13:02:47 GMT -8
I repudiate conservative thought, because it is, in my estimation at its foundation, selfish. I never saw conservatism actually help anyone. The work harder or be worthless trope is a fraud. It does not work for too many people, without some help. Now, I am bored again. We are not changing any minds here. If living conservative ideals didn't convince me, you won't. You haven't even addressed a single specific point that I've made. It's easy to just throw blanket statements out there saying that you, "Repudiate conservative thought," but you haven't noted any specific ideals or concepts that you're repudiating. It's easy to just call conservative ideals selfish, but that doesn't make that accurate. What conservative ideals, specifically, are selfish? I've specifically noted how liberal ideals are demeaning and insulting to those who are at the lower end of society. How, specifically, are conservative ideals selfish? I seriously, honestly, think you don't understand conservatism and what it's really all about. |
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Post by The Aztec Panther on Oct 23, 2010 13:04:14 GMT -8
I repudiate conservative thought, because it is, in my estimation at its foundation, selfish. I never saw conservatism actually help anyone. The work harder or be worthless trope is a fraud. It does not work for too many people, without some help. Now, I am bored again. We are not changing any minds here. If living conservative ideals didn't convince me, you won't. Oh, c'mon! I consider myself 'conservative'. I raided my IRA in order to contribute to Katrina relief. Was that 'selfish'? And let's not forget that studies have been done and they show that conservatives (Republicans) give to charity at about twice the rate that liberals (Democrats) do. That certainly debunks the, "Conservatives are just selfish," idea. |
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Post by The Aztec Panther on Oct 23, 2010 18:33:12 GMT -8
Hard work, determination, and NOT accepting handouts (unless absolutely necessary to survive) is what conservatives believe in. Well at least you and I agree that both welfare and inheritance should be abolished, that people should have to work for every single penny they have. That way, if the rich want to make their kids rich while they're alive, that's fine. If not, the leftover money goes to the war on terror. Ummm.... I never said that. A parent doesn't know when they're going to die, and since they worked for their money they should be able to pass it on to their children if they want to. That money has already been earned and taxed. When I say not accepting handouts I'm talking about from OTHER taxpayer in the form of government subsidies. Unless you have no choice (in order to survive) you should not take government handouts as a way of life. |
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Post by The Great Aztec Joe on Oct 23, 2010 18:44:52 GMT -8
Hard work, determination, and NOT accepting handouts (unless absolutely necessary to survive) is what conservatives believe in. Well at least you and I agree that both welfare and inheritance should be abolished, that people should have to work for every single penny they have. That way, if the rich want to make their kids rich while they're alive, that's fine. If not, the leftover money goes to the war on terror. We need to dispense with the war on terror. It is all contrived and needs to be erased. People who are too dumb to work need assistance. We are adding a million to the ranks of young people who are on Social Security each and every year. We are breeding these dumb people in our inner cities, and they go on social Security as soon as they reach 18 years of age. What else can we do? They breed like rats. |
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Post by The Aztec Panther on Oct 23, 2010 20:55:58 GMT -8
A parent doesn't know when they're going to die, and since they worked for their money they should be able to pass it on to their children if they want to. Rush Limbaugh disagrees with you. He believes in "rugged individualism." No, he believes in NOT taxing the same income twice. Taking that money from the kids amounts to nothing less than stealing. It wasn't luck that their parents worked hard to set their kids up for a better life. There's nothing wrong with that. |
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Post by The Aztec Panther on Oct 23, 2010 20:58:04 GMT -8
By the way, I'm not all that lucky by birth. I'm lower middle class, and I don't begrudge anyone whose parents cared enough about them to leave them enough money to be comfortable and financially secure.
Luck is part of life. Sometimes you're born with it, sometimes you make your own luck as you go.
Life isn't one size fits all.
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Post by aztecwin on Oct 24, 2010 6:46:13 GMT -8
I don't know how I stayed out of this thread so long. Interesting points have been made. I think it just shows once again there are many ways to get ahead and one size does not fit all. I choose one way over all others, but am glad to hear others opinions and experiences. Hard work, living well within your means and investing is hard to find fault with.
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