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Post by Deleted on Jul 24, 2010 17:23:06 GMT -8
Oh man.... CV Dont know how this thing got off topic and silly Its obvious you have a lot of "ditto" heads following you . which I guess is cool. a bit strange but cool. But you well know that they do not represent aztec fans in this town that really care and actually show up to an event from time to time. My bad for asking you all to think critically In my view, nothing has hurt Aztecs sports more than the attitude that criticism from fans is inherently a bad thing. That attitude just lets inept coaches and administrators off the hook. I don't know whether its basis is you aren't being true to your school (by former fans of the Beach Boys) or paranoia that if we fire the underachievers we can't find anybody even that good (by the kind of guys who will never leave a bad marriage for the same reason). Whatever its basis, I very much disagree with it. |
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Post by monty on Jul 24, 2010 17:31:40 GMT -8
Oh man.... CV Dont know how this thing got off topic and silly Its obvious you have a lot of "ditto" heads following you . which I guess is cool. a bit strange but cool. But you well know that they do not represent aztec fans in this town that really care and actually show up to an event from time to time. My bad for asking you all to think critically In my view, nothing has hurt Aztecs sports more than the attitude that criticism from fans is inherently a bad thing. That attitude just lets inept coaches and administrators off the hook. I don't know whether its basis is you aren't being true to your school (by former fans of the Beach Boys) or paranoia that if we fire the underachievers we can't find anybody even that good (by the kind of guys who will never leave a bad marriage for the same reason). Whatever its basis, I very much disagree with it. (I'm listening to Wendy right now, best beach boys song - and really amazing cover by the descendents) Seriously, baseball has been an abomination - if there is anything besides producing an amazing running back every or a couple a generation that san diego has done well is produce baseballers. |
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Post by zurac315 on Jul 24, 2010 19:32:59 GMT -8
I was waiting for my other favorite basher the sleepingmidgetfan to rear his ugly mug on this thread. i'll bet you southbaysuckhead voted for obama!!!!! he really knows a winner when he see's one..... I didn't realize that Obama was an Aztec, but since some of you folks keep bringing him up on this sports board I guess he must have been. Glad I voted for him. I feel even better about it now that you have convinced me that he was an Aztec. I guess I'll vote for him again. |
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Post by zurac315 on Jul 24, 2010 19:38:55 GMT -8
I was waiting for my other favorite basher the sleepingmidgetfan to rear his ugly mug on this thread. i'll bet you southbaysuckhead voted for obama!!! I wasn't going to respond to this thread. However, since I've been called out . . . Northridge: Considering it's not an exaggeration to say that school has junior college facilities whereas SDSU's are state of the art, we have one huge advantage over them. However, except when we have one of the greatest college pitchers of all time on our staff, we can't seem to do any better in one of the worst baseball leagues in the country than they manage to do in one of the best. Obama: Kindly keep the political comments off this sports forum. /s/ The Ugly Mug Thank you for remembering that this is about sports, SGF. |
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Post by cvbigguy on Jul 26, 2010 8:38:45 GMT -8
the political comment was a comparison..... jus maybe an insight into someones thought process...
no one called you out sgf, just was surprised you were letting your chance to bad mouth the baseball go by.....
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Post by azterick on Jul 26, 2010 9:10:54 GMT -8
I know a great number of the legit 2012 San Diego ball players as my son plays high school ball and is graduating that year. Playing travel ball for year, you get to know who people and players are. I can guarantee you that SDSU is highly regarded among those kids as well as their parents. Those D1 prospects all keep the Aztecs in their top list of schools. Seriously, how many 16 year olds do you think there are in SD that don't idolize Tony Gwynn. When these kids were learning to hit off a tee, Tony was everything baseball.
Here's a more common situation. Recently my son's summer ball team played against a high school that has a 6'3" prospect that will be a senior this year. This kid got in to the 90's his sophomore year. He has offers from USC and Fullerton...among others. His father said he does not yet have an offer on the table from State, but that he was REALLY hoping to get one soon. They would like him to stay local and play for Tony and Valenzuela.
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Post by Section T(urn Up) on Jul 26, 2010 9:23:43 GMT -8
I know a great number of the legit 2012 San Diego ball players as my son plays high school ball and is graduating that year. Playing travel ball for year, you get to know who people and players are. I can guarantee you that SDSU is highly regarded among those kids as well as their parents. Those D1 prospects all keep the Aztecs in their top list of schools. Seriously, how many 16 year olds do you think there are in SD that don't idolize Tony Gwynn. When these kids were learning to hit off a tee, Tony was everything baseball. Here's a more common situation. Recently my son's summer ball team played against a high school that has a 6'3" prospect that will be a senior this year. This kid got in to the 90's his sophomore year. He has offers from USC and Fullerton...among others. His father said he does not yet have an offer on the table from State, but that he was REALLY hoping to get one soon. They would like him to stay local and play for Tony and Valenzuela. As encouraging as the latter half of this post is, I think the first half is indicative of the problem that is being alluded to in this thread. The personal beefs that are showing aside, I am an avid baseball fan and an SDSU alum. I find the baseball program's lack of success embarrassing. The first half of this post indicates that recruits idolize Tony Gwynn (obviously this is likely true), but then when we look at the program's track record under TG it is well below even the most modest of expectations. If these kids are dying to play for TG, as this post (and intuition) seems to suggest, then where are the wins? Is there anything more alarming than being told the top flight talent does want to play at SDSU and yet we still don't get a winning program? Frankly, I'd rather hear that the top flight talent says SDSWho? At least that would explain the losing ways. If the best want to play here and they either don't get the opportunity or don't flourish under TG then I think it is obviously time to consider some changes. In response to the OP: 1. Facilities are fantastic. 2. Tony Gwynn as the head coach will get the program and you a little more recognition than at another program. 3. Playing time. SDSU isn't a powerhouse--if you're good enough you'll play immediately. 4. San Diego is either close to home for a lot of these guys (family/friends can watch etc.) or it is SAN DIEGO and that is a selling point. I'm not sure there's a lot more. I don't know OP's history or if he's a troll, but I think this question has some legitimacy to it in a vacuum. It's time we look at the program and wonder out loud why the it is not coming together faster. |
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Post by azterick on Jul 26, 2010 9:49:43 GMT -8
usdaztec,
I understand and respect your comments. I was attempting to point out that there aren't too many 16 year old kids in SD that have such disdain for Aztec baseball. What kid would say "What the Hell do I want to go there for?" As evident in the last few recruiting classes, top prospects do want to play for the Aztecs. This year's haul is loaded. As CV has pointed out, and you as a baseball fan know, success on the diamond is dictated by pitching. As I've said in the past (and been attacked for it) I do not think we had the right guy evaluating, recruiting and coaching our pitchers. However, I do have faith in Valenzuela as an evaluator and coach. The recent "letting-go" of pitchers speaks volumes to me as well as parents of current prospects of the direction, accountability, and seriousness of the program. And let's be honest, Aztec baseball is not a losing program. They might have underachieved, but they are not losing program. They are receiving national attention and respect and for more than just Strasburg. TCU was elite this year, NM was good, we came in 3rd in conference. Underachieved, but not losing.
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Post by longtimebooster on Jul 26, 2010 9:56:46 GMT -8
Why respond to an obvious troll? Dude, seriously? I am posing an honest question. Then you go first. |
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Post by cvbigguy on Jul 26, 2010 10:11:26 GMT -8
southbay, why you always tryin to start somthing?  doesn't Northridge have a talk site..... Oh man.... Again its a legit question. .. CV I have seen more than one board that you and a few regulars have posted on and it seems it always gets back to blaming coaches. I simply dont agree with some of the responses.. is that starting something? as for the other posters..WTH? heres what I was really looking for something like : 1. the facilities 2. You get a chance to play for a HOFamer who has the pull to get somebody drafted 3. get a chance to play ranked teams like TCU and usd on a regular basis 4. A chance to start Right Away 5. I live in CA and the state system is cheaper for a CA prospect 6. A chance to train year around in the weather.. Dont know how this thing got off topic and silly Its obvious you have a lot of "ditto" heads following you . which I guess is cool. a bit strange but cool. But you well know that they do not represent aztec fans in this town that really care and actually show up to an event from time to time. My bad for asking you all to think critically - sorry i misread your 1st question!!!!! there is no reason to go out of town anywhere else to play baseball. IF ALL YOU ARE LOOKING FOR IS MAKING IT TO A WORLD SERIES THEN IT'S A CRAP SHOOT AS TO WHERE YOU GO AND WHO IS YOUR COACH!!!!!! The only difference your choice could make is to get to one of the east coast schools that gets the media bias and the ncaa bias for chances to go to the post season. everything you could want is here @ sdsu!!!!! your chances of making to the pro level could not be any better here in san diego. the coach alone has more ties to the pro baseball community than probably any other head coach in college baseball. facilities are top notch. scouts at every game. beautiful weather. beautiful campus and needless to say more girls than a guy could want. so whats the drawback? no coach bashing here. i cannot thank Tony enough for all he has done to prepare my son for the next level. mentally, physically, and baseball wise he is ready which if you all get down to it why kids go to college in the first place. playoffs and a world series is great but what really is the bottom line of why they go to college? to make it to the pros......... no better chance anywhere than SDSU! cv out |
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Post by Section T(urn Up) on Jul 26, 2010 10:24:46 GMT -8
Not to play Devil's advocate too much, because I think you have an important point in your post that is valid, but this isn't what Tony Gwynn is paid to do. Is it great for the program when guys make it professionally from here? Obviously, it gets notoriety and a good reputation for the coach amongst recruits. I think your statement about "why they go to college" is where the line needs to be drawn and the distinction made. Your interests in the program are not the same as someone without a direct interest in seeing one of the kids get drafted and make it. I don't think anybody would fault you for having this interest, but I don't think it is unfair to point out that I would not care if any of the players got drafted if SDSU had an elite program.
Obviously I see the benefit to having players get drafted--I think everybody does--but to use the fact that TG will prepare kids for a professional career as a way of supporting his position as a collegiate head coach seems unsavory.
Edited to be clear:
I am not saying TG shouldn't sell this point to recruits, obviously he should. But the end of your post indicates that we ought to measure the success of the program based on how well TG prepares his players for their professional careers. That is what seems unsavory.
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Post by Section T(urn Up) on Jul 26, 2010 10:29:26 GMT -8
usdaztec, I understand and respect your comments. I was attempting to point out that there aren't too many 16 year old kids in SD that have such disdain for Aztec baseball. What kid would say "What the Hell do I want to go there for?" As evident in the last few recruiting classes, top prospects do want to play for the Aztecs. This year's haul is loaded. As CV has pointed out, and you as a baseball fan know, success on the diamond is dictated by pitching. As I've said in the past (and been attacked for it) I do not think we had the right guy evaluating, recruiting and coaching our pitchers. However, I do have faith in Valenzuela as an evaluator and coach. The recent "letting-go" of pitchers speaks volumes to me as well as parents of current prospects of the direction, accountability, and seriousness of the program. And let's be honest, Aztec baseball is not a losing program. They might have underachieved, but they are not losing program. They are receiving national attention and respect and for more than just Strasburg. TCU was elite this year, NM was good, we came in 3rd in conference. Underachieved, but not losing. I agree with everything you said, and am very interested in your outlook as I think it is far better informed as to what the perception of the program is than most anybody who posts here. However, if the last few recruiting classes were loaded, it is concerning to me that we aren't discussing SDSU's competitiveness in the national tournament and are instead discussing SDSU's competitiveness in a mediocre baseball conference. |
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Post by cvbigguy on Jul 26, 2010 10:54:26 GMT -8
Not to play Devil's advocate too much, because I think you have an important point in your post that is valid, but this isn't what Tony Gwynn is paid to do. Is it great for the program when guys make it professionally from here? Obviously, it gets notoriety and a good reputation for the coach amongst recruits. I think your statement about "why they go to college" is where the line needs to be drawn and the distinction made. Your interests in the program are not the same as someone without a direct interest in seeing one of the kids get drafted and make it. I don't think anybody would fault you for having this interest, but I don't think it is unfair to point out that I would not care if any of the players got drafted if SDSU had an elite program. Obviously I see the benefit to having players get drafted--I think everybody does--but to use the fact that TG will prepare kids for a professional career as a way of supporting his position as a collegiate head coach seems unsavory. Edited to be clear: I am not saying TG shouldn't sell this point to recruits, obviously he should. But the end of your post indicates that we ought to measure the success of the program based on how well TG prepares his players for their professional careers. That is what seems unsavory. it's what the players are looking for. if you are a top notch recruit then that is your motivation, not a world series. the choice of signing a pro contract or not signing if you are drafted is solely a question of are you going to improve your slot in the draft. not a world series. just ask one of them and i think you'll find out this is true. if you are truly wanting to go to a college world series then there is a handful of schools you can try to get in. good luck. otherwise you may get lucky and go to one but chances are not. |
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Post by Section T(urn Up) on Jul 26, 2010 10:59:51 GMT -8
Not to play Devil's advocate too much, because I think you have an important point in your post that is valid, but this isn't what Tony Gwynn is paid to do. Is it great for the program when guys make it professionally from here? Obviously, it gets notoriety and a good reputation for the coach amongst recruits. I think your statement about "why they go to college" is where the line needs to be drawn and the distinction made. Your interests in the program are not the same as someone without a direct interest in seeing one of the kids get drafted and make it. I don't think anybody would fault you for having this interest, but I don't think it is unfair to point out that I would not care if any of the players got drafted if SDSU had an elite program. Obviously I see the benefit to having players get drafted--I think everybody does--but to use the fact that TG will prepare kids for a professional career as a way of supporting his position as a collegiate head coach seems unsavory. Edited to be clear: I am not saying TG shouldn't sell this point to recruits, obviously he should. But the end of your post indicates that we ought to measure the success of the program based on how well TG prepares his players for their professional careers. That is what seems unsavory. it's what the players are looking for. if you are a top notch recruit then that is your motivation, not a world series. the choice of signing a pro contract or not signing if you are drafted is solely a question of are you going to improve your slot in the draft. not a world series. just ask one of them and i think you'll find out this is true. if you are truly wanting to go to a college world series then there is a handful of schools you can try to get in. good luck. otherwise you may get lucky and go to one but chances are not. I am well aware of all of this--and I agree with you. That's why I said he should sell his ability to improve them and their draft slot hard. But that still is not addressing the fact that TG is not paid to be a private coach whose purpose is to improve the kids' draft slots. He's a head coach at a college baseball program--not giving private lessons. And most of us are firsst fans of the school and team, and 2nd the individuals who comprise it. Thus, those of us who have an interest in the success of the program first and foremost don't much care why the players come to SDSU, we want them to win. |
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Post by cvbigguy on Jul 26, 2010 11:45:26 GMT -8
here is the problem what is to be considered success? winning the conference tourney?regional every year? super regional every year? world series every year?
anything beyond the conference tourney is luck. for any school..... no matter who the coach is so back to the question of what is a successful program?
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Post by gettough on Jul 26, 2010 12:23:11 GMT -8
I think regional appearances, super-regionals and trips to Omaha are the measures of success for a college baseball program. That's why Fullerton, Oregon State, UCI and Long Beach State and even USD have good baseball reps. Clearly, LBSU was down this year as was OSU. UCI has made some noise in the last few years.
Looking at USD closely, their rep. may be better than their reality. They rolled through their conference but couldn't get past Hawaii in the regionals, and I believe we took the series from them again this year. And they had legit pitching. Maybe their conference is at least as weak as the MWC, probably weaker.
But winning programs are clearly the result of effective leadership, and mediocre programs reflect mediocre leadership. If my kid is a high-level recruit considering passing on the draft, he wants to be around committed coaches who know how to win championships. You learn some things playing for winners and it instills in young men a commitment to excellence and confidence, the belief that working the right way will bring the desired results.
Finally, I believe it was dshawfan who wrote about team-identity. What type of team? Small ball? Power pitching? Big hitters? What is the philosophy and do you recruit to it?
CV, does Tony seem to have a philosophy? Or does he just try to get guys and let them play?
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Post by Section T(urn Up) on Jul 26, 2010 12:40:41 GMT -8
here is the problem what is to be considered success? winning the conference tourney?regional every year? super regional every year? world series every year? anything beyond the conference tourney is luck. for any school..... no matter who the coach is so back to the question of what is a successful program? I am unclear as to what your assertion about "luck" is. I am getting the impression that you think even a Regional appearance every year is luck. I think there are a solid 20-30 schools that would disagree with you on that assertion and I don't know why SDSU can't be among them. A successful program is one that has a *realistic* shot at an at large bid into a Regional each and every year, and a shot at winning the conference each and every year. SDSU basketball is a successful program. A successful program cannot be measured by how many players make it to the pros or how well developed they are. I think it's important to emphasize how much I (and I think most) really want to see each and every Aztec do as well as they can and get a professional contract for themselves--but that is not my primary concern from the SDSU baseball program. |
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Post by gettough on Jul 26, 2010 12:44:48 GMT -8
here is the problem what is to be considered success? winning the conference tourney?regional every year? super regional every year? world series every year? anything beyond the conference tourney is luck. for any school..... no matter who the coach is so back to the question of what is a successful program? I am unclear as to what your assertion about "luck" is. I am getting the impression that you think even a Regional appearance every year is luck. I think there are a solid 20-30 schools that would disagree with you on that assertion and I don't know why SDSU can't be among them. A successful program is one that has a *realistic* shot at an at large bid into a Regional each and every year, and a shot at winning the conference each and every year. SDSU basketball is a successful program. A successful program cannot be measured by how many players make it to the pros or how well developed they are. I think it's important to emphasize how much I (and I think most) really want to see each and every Aztec do as well as they can and get a professional contract for themselves--but that is not my primary concern from the SDSU baseball program. +1 |
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Post by cvbigguy on Jul 26, 2010 13:21:38 GMT -8
as a parent of a player on the team i see things from a different point of view on a lot of these topics about the baseball program. I see that Tony has a more professional philosophy towards his players and not as much of a college approach. i see Tony as giving the players room to grow and treats them as adults. i have noticed that some of the players do not do well under this type of coaching as they need a more hands on coach because they are not ready to be let go yet. i do not know if there is a certain philosophy he abides by. it seems he handles each player different. i know for my son this has worked well as he is a hard worker and does well and pushes himself but some players cannot push themselves at the college level and that is where i see the coaching lacking. i do not see a cohesive unit on the field because of this coaching style. some are over here, some are over there and it does not seem like a college team atmosphere but more like the pro's where you are left to find your own way.... it's kinda hard to put in words but if you see the team you may notice this....
i do know that it is not like any college team i played for as far as cohesiveness and team togetherness. no team get togethers, dinners, fun times off the field. if he could mix these things in i think he would do his program a favor. they need to be a team and i dont see it...
they could be with a little fun and games and not all work......
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Post by 83aztec on Jul 26, 2010 13:39:53 GMT -8
as a parent of a player on the team i see things from a different point of view on a lot of these topics about the baseball program. I see that Tony has a more professional philosophy towards his players and not as much of a college approach. i see Tony as giving the players room to grow and treats them as adults. i have noticed that some of the players do not do well under this type of coaching as they need a more hands on coach because they are not ready to be let go yet. i do not know if there is a certain philosophy he abides by. it seems he handles each player different. i know for my son this has worked well as he is a hard worker and does well and pushes himself but some players cannot push themselves at the college level and that is where i see the coaching lacking. i do not see a cohesive unit on the field because of this coaching style. some are over here, some are over there and it does not seem like a college team atmosphere but more like the pro's where you are left to find your own way.... it's kinda hard to put in words but if you see the team you may notice this.... i do know that it is not like any college team i played for as far as cohesiveness and team togetherness. no team get togethers, dinners, fun times off the field. if he could mix these things in i think he would do his program a favor. they need to be a team and i dont see it... they could be with a little fun and games and not all work...... This pretty much sums up TG and what he will always do at State. |
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