BYU Athletics built on Blue Shirting??

[kbcoug]

Feb 11, 2011 9:23:56 GMT -8 ellbee said:

Feb 11, 2011 0:16:25 GMT -8 chakha said:

None of this factors in the attrition at BYU from Honor Code violations, something few, if any, other universities have.

All of the Service Academies have Honor Codes, as does Virginia - so "few" is correct, but "if any" is not.

The service Academy Honor Codes are unique to the service as is BYU's unique to the LDS church. If Harvey Unga had been at the Air Force Academy and done what he did he still could have played football this past year so all honor codes are not equal. I'm not saying one is better or worse but there are differences

[North County Aztec]

Feb 11, 2011 9:56:43 GMT -8 kbcoug said:

What difference would it make if you were told again; you won't believe any of it because it doesn't fit into what you've already decided is true.

If you took identical twins and all environmental things were equal; same food, same levels of activity, etc and you compared one of them at 19 with one at 21 yes, you'd see a more mature body and probably mind. Does that make you feel better? In a scientific labratory experiment where everything has to be equal you are 100% correct! Most of you need to read no farther because this is what you want to hear some BYU person admit.

The trouble is you can't compare a 19 year old and a 21 year old that way if you're comparing to see a difference that missions have because all environmental factors will be different. The 21 year old will still be more mature, especially mentally; big difference mentally even between a 21 year old who's been living at home and going to school to a 21 year old who's been on a 2 year mission. That's where the disconnect between what you say and what BYU fans say happen. The 21 year old at home is able to schedule workouts and other things to help the physical maturity in a much different way than the 21 year old has been able to do on a mission. A 21 year old college sophomore or junior who's been working out with a football team will be more physically ready to play than a 21 year old return missionary coming home from anywhere, and much more ready than from some places the missionary could have been sent. That's why we see things differently

boring

[azson]

<<kbcoug: What difference would it make if you were told again; you won't believe any of it because it doesn't fit into what you've already decided is true.>>

"Hi, Kettle? Yeah, it's me Pot...you're black."

[dlangford9]

SDSU fans (including me) should stop engaging in these types of conversations with BY-Who fans. I am not trying to get religious, but I do think it says a great deal about their mindset. My basic premise is...

If... Morman people can be influenced and then convinced that the Bible, as a whole, is not complete and needs to be expanded on (the Book of Mormon, then they are open to suggestion, influence and ultimately control by other people. My opinion , which is also shared by many other Christians, is that part of their "training" to be a Morman, is a defense mechanism to keep them from listening to opinions that would suggest their ideas / faith is wrong.

Conclusion... let's stop engaging them in conversations about ANY subject that puts negative light on BY-Who, including it's teachings, students, ethics, influence on officiating, politics, behavior of athletes, etc, to rest. They have been taught very well to deny and ignore. If we do engage on these subjects, we will get the same results we have always received... denial, frustration and angry posts.

From this day forward, I ABSOLUTELY REFUSE TO SPEAK TO BY-WHO FANS ABOUT ANY SPORT, ANYWHERE, ANYTIME! NO GOOD CAN COME FROM IT.

[kbcoug]

Feb 11, 2011 11:24:08 GMT -8 azson said:

<<kbcoug: What difference would it make if you were told again; you won't believe any of it because it doesn't fit into what you've already decided is true.>>

"Hi, Kettle? Yeah, it's me Pot...you're black."

You're right, we've both made up our minds. One difference, I've been on a mission and know what it's all about and how difficult it can be coming home after 2 year of not using your body in athletics.

Maybe you did serve a mission but my guess is you probably didn't so you're supposing without experience. You're not wrong though, it is an advantage, I've never once claimed it isn't; it just isn't the end all be all advantage it's made out to be.

[kbcoug]

Feb 11, 2011 11:42:56 GMT -8 dlangford9 said:

SDSU fans (including me) should stop engaging in these types of conversations with BY-Who fans. I am not trying to get religious, but I do think it says a great deal about their mindset. My basic premise is...

If... Morman people can be influenced and then convinced that the Bible, as a whole, is not complete and needs to be expanded on (the Book of Mormon, then they are open to suggestion, influence and ultimately control by other people. My opinion , which is also shared by many other Christians, is that part of their "training" to be a Morman, is a defense mechanism to keep them from listening to opinions that would suggest their ideas / faith is wrong.

Conclusion... let's stop engaging them in conversations about ANY subject that puts negative light on BY-Who, including it's teachings, students, ethics, influence on officiating, politics, behavior of athletes, etc, to rest. They have been taught very well to deny and ignore. If we do engage on these subjects, we will get the same results we have always received... denial, frustration and angry posts.

From this day forward, I ABSOLUTELY REFUSE TO SPEAK TO BY-WHO FANS ABOUT ANY SPORT, ANYWHERE, ANYTIME! NO GOOD CAN COME FROM IT.

And we as BYU fans appreciate it very much; we already talk to too many like you, one less is a blessing indeed.

[ellbee]

Feb 11, 2011 9:58:41 GMT -8 kbcoug said:

Feb 11, 2011 9:23:56 GMT -8 ellbee said:

All of the Service Academies have Honor Codes, as does Virginia - so "few" is correct, but "if any" is not.

The service Academy Honor Codes are unique to the service as is BYU's unique to the LDS church. If Harvey Unga had been at the Air Force Academy and done what he did he still could have played football this past year so all honor codes are not equal. I'm not saying one is better or worse but there are differences

I was replying to your implication that only BYU had an Honor Code/Behavior requirements that led to attrition.

And you might be surprised at how Mr. Unga's behavior would have been addressed at the Academies.

I'd argue that life at BYU - while requiring conformity and appropriate behavior - is far less demanding than that of the Academies. But we digress from the recurring point/counterpoint cranium bashing...

[Kiss My Aztec]

Feb 11, 2011 9:56:43 GMT -8 kbcoug said:

What difference would it make if you were told again; you won't believe any of it because it doesn't fit into what you've already decided is true.

If you took identical twins and all environmental things were equal; same food, same levels of activity, etc and you compared one of them at 19 with one at 21 yes, you'd see a more mature body and probably mind. Does that make you feel better? In a scientific labratory experiment where everything has to be equal you are 100% correct! Most of you need to read no farther because this is what you want to hear some BYU person admit.

What if one of those identical twins was approaching the speed of light

[ellbee]

Feb 11, 2011 13:08:30 GMT -8 Kiss My Aztec said:

What if one of those identical twins was approaching the speed of light

...in a car, and they turned on the headlights. Would anything happen?

[azson]

Feb 11, 2011 12:44:53 GMT -8 kbcoug said:

Feb 11, 2011 11:42:56 GMT -8 dlangford9 said:

SDSU fans (including me) should stop engaging in these types of conversations with BY-Who fans. I am not trying to get religious, but I do think it says a great deal about their mindset. My basic premise is...

If... Morman people can be influenced and then convinced that the Bible, as a whole, is not complete and needs to be expanded on (the Book of Mormon, then they are open to suggestion, influence and ultimately control by other people. My opinion , which is also shared by many other Christians, is that part of their "training" to be a Morman, is a defense mechanism to keep them from listening to opinions that would suggest their ideas / faith is wrong.

Conclusion... let's stop engaging them in conversations about ANY subject that puts negative light on BY-Who, including it's teachings, students, ethics, influence on officiating, politics, behavior of athletes, etc, to rest. They have been taught very well to deny and ignore. If we do engage on these subjects, we will get the same results we have always received... denial, frustration and angry posts.

From this day forward, I ABSOLUTELY REFUSE TO SPEAK TO BY-WHO FANS ABOUT ANY SPORT, ANYWHERE, ANYTIME! NO GOOD CAN COME FROM IT.

And we as BYU fans appreciate it very much; we already talk to too many like you, one less is a blessing indeed.

Once again I ask coug, why then (other than the obvious pleasure you garner from trolling) are you here on this board?

[azdick]

What about non-identical twins? Why are they being dismissed as irrelevant to this stunning Coug literation?

[Borg]

Feb 11, 2011 13:13:06 GMT -8 ellbee said:

Feb 11, 2011 13:08:30 GMT -8 Kiss My Aztec said:

What if one of those identical twins was approaching the speed of light

...in a car, and they turned on the headlights. Would anything happen?

This stuff made me laugh! Exxxxcellent!

[ragin'aztec]

Feb 11, 2011 9:43:29 GMT -8 kbcoug said:

Feb 10, 2011 22:13:18 GMT -8 ragin'aztec said:

Fraud fraud fraud.... Fredette's a rock star on campus so he does whatever he wants. More power to him for that but look at these ridiculous rules for the ladies... from the *ahem* "honor code"

Women

Clothing is inappropriate when it is sleeveless, strapless, backless, or revealing; has slits above the knee; or is form fitting. Dresses, skirts, and shorts must be knee length or longer. Hairstyles should be clean and neat, avoiding extremes in styles and colors. Excessive ear piercing (more than one per ear) and all other body piercing are not acceptable. Shoes should be worn in all public campus areas.

Look at that. It's like the taliban is in charge at BYU. Well, not quite.....


-filmed in a chapel on the BYU campus

You know what? If I were you I'd really show the Taliban in Provo. I wouldn't apply to go there, that will teach them. I'll bet if you do that it'll really hurt BYU to the core.

I'm way ahead of you. I've never thought about applying to BYU, since I prefer to think for myself.

But never mind about me mr. coug, watch the video!

[buckeye15]

I guess this could be interpreted in advantage in one respect, but I don't really think there is room for anyone to complain about it or use it as an excuse for losing to them.

Being 22-23 instead of 19-20 is an advantage, but you have to take talent into consideration too. BYU has a pretty limited recruiting base. I mean aside from the mormon thing, a kid with big time NFL (or NBA) aspirations isn't going to want to spend 2 or 3 years on a mission trip 99% of the time. I'd imagine it has a little bit bigger of an impact on the non-revenue sports (Don't know enough about BYU athletics to know about what non-rev sports they are good at or if they are good at them). What it probably does in football/basketball is that it allows a specialized school to essentially stay competitive with other D-1 programs.

[kbcoug]

Feb 11, 2011 13:12:52 GMT -8 azson said:

Feb 11, 2011 12:44:53 GMT -8 kbcoug said:

And we as BYU fans appreciate it very much; we already talk to too many like you, one less is a blessing indeed.

Once again I ask coug, why then (other than the obvious pleasure you garner from trolling) are you here on this board?

How else am I going to find out what really happens in my world. Afterall, I've never been allowed to think for myself so I'm leaning on the vast knowledge and unopinionated knowledge that seems to run rampant here.

Honestly, I fall into this way too easily; and I should know better. I drop by all of our conference opponents message boards before we play them for a couple of reasons. First, the local newspapers don't really carry very much of the news going on in our opponents camp, with the exception fo the utes and the Utah State Aggies. I come on to see if there are players who may play, or who haven't played due to injury who might be playing when we meet, and hopefully to have some meaningful sports related banter. What usually happens though is I fall into the 'defensive' mode like so many of we BYU fans do when we read some of the stuff we disagree with but should just let slide then it seems to feed on itself. For that I do apologize because I should expect it and not be part of it but alas I'm a mere mortal and sometimes I do stupid things.

I will usually get mad at myself and stay away for a couple of days only to forget I was staying away and end up back here where the cycle starts over. When an Aztec poster asks a question and prefaces it with "will you please just answer this" I charge ahead like a bull in a china shop instead of sit back and realize that comment is kind of like when someone asks you, how your doing that day; they're just asking, they don't really want an answer.

Before I depart I do have somethings I wanted to say but never got around to it as I start tilting at windmills and forget my initial objective. I'll try to leave without returning after tonight since my being here takes away from talking about the sport and keeps the conversation away from that objective; again, I apologize; this is an Aztec board and if I can't keep the conversation on that fact I shouldn't be here.

I did come over today to say congratulation to Leonard on being one of the 30 finalists for the Naismith award; he's very worthy of the recognition. I also wanted to wish you luck, although I doubt you'll need it when you play UNLV. A game against the Aztecs and the team that shall remain nameless is much more attractive to national attention if the Aztecs still only have 1 loss and that other team only has 2.

I wish your players good fortune against the injury imps that can jump up and bite even the most fit and best players. When my team meets your team I'd like both teams to be as healthy as they can be. A victory under any other circumstance would seem to be a little bit tarnished, at least to me.

So long Aztecs; good luck in the MWC next year and for years to come.

signing off;
kbcoug

[pokinsky]

Feb 11, 2011 16:18:53 GMT -8 buckeye15 said:

I guess this could be interpreted in advantage in one respect, but I don't really think there is room for anyone to complain about it or use it as an excuse for losing to them.

Being 22-23 instead of 19-20 is an advantage, but you have to take talent into consideration too. BYU has a pretty limited recruiting base. I mean aside from the mormon thing, a kid with big time NFL (or NBA) aspirations isn't going to want to spend 2 or 3 years on a mission trip 99% of the time. I'd imagine it has a little bit bigger of an impact on the non-revenue sports (Don't know enough about BYU athletics to know about what non-rev sports they are good at or if they are good at them). What it probably does in football/basketball is that it allows a specialized school to essentially stay competitive with other D-1 programs.

This is a good summary. Is there an advantage maybe, maybe not ... is there an excuse, absolutely not. The playing field of sports is never even. Whether the opponent is older, stronger, more athletic, taller, takes PED's or their alums simply pay more for their top recruits .. it's never even. Get over it.

Byu doesn't go undefeated every year so obviously there are teams that can handle there 'old guys' .. and we are finally getting talent to compete on that level. It wasn't the old players on Byu .. it was crappy talent on our team.

If your opponent is older and stronger .. quit whining about how unfair it is and get you ass in the gym and start training for battle. Every other team in football is trying to move up into a power conference and we're crying about why our opponent is too big and strong for us? Hell ... I wish NM and UNLV would start sending players on missions if that is what builds a powerhouse program because they're dragging down the conference.

[bearfoot]

Feb 11, 2011 9:56:43 GMT -8 kbcoug said:

Feb 10, 2011 23:49:19 GMT -8 bearfoot said:

Bla Bla Bla, you folks are experts at using the straw man.

What most are saying here, isn't that the missionaries are working out for football or basketball, what i've read is that they are getting older, and their bodies are naturally maturing.

Please address what this thread is about, and not the talking points delivered by the Borg Pub department.

Tell us if you think a 21 year old freshman has a more, or less mature body and mind, than one that is 18.

Thanks

What difference would it make if you were told again; you won't believe any of it because it doesn't fit into what you've already decided is true.

If you took identical twins and all environmental things were equal; same food, same levels of activity, etc and you compared one of them at 19 with one at 21 yes, you'd see a more mature body and probably mind. Does that make you feel better? In a scientific labratory experiment where everything has to be equal you are 100% correct! Most of you need to read no farther because this is what you want to hear some BYU person admit.

The trouble is you can't compare a 19 year old and a 21 year old that way if you're comparing to see a difference that missions have because all environmental factors will be different. The 21 year old will still be more mature, especially mentally; big difference mentally even between a 21 year old who's been living at home and going to school to a 21 year old who's been on a 2 year mission. That's where the disconnect between what you say and what BYU fans say happen. The 21 year old at home is able to schedule workouts and other things to help the physical maturity in a much different way than the 21 year old has been able to do on a mission. A 21 year old college sophomore or junior who's been working out with a football team will be more physically ready to play than a 21 year old return missionary coming home from anywhere, and much more ready than from some places the missionary could have been sent. That's why we see things differently

What you left out is that the Missionary re-enters the world of college and whatever sport they play, usually with four years to further mature. So, they get that continual working out you wrote about, but their workouts are on an older, more mature body.

I think we both are not going to settle this, but I do have a serious question.
LDS folks are encouraged go on a mission after they turn 19, what is keeping them from going on the mission after they graduate?

Thanks for your patience.

[Borg]

Feb 12, 2011 1:38:36 GMT -8 bearfoot said:

..., but I do have a serious question.
LDS folks are encouraged go on a mission after they turn 19, what is keeping them from going on the mission after they graduate?

Thanks for your patience.

Mostly, when you graduate, you are primed for "life" ie. job, marriage, family, etc. The Church does not want you to put off having/starting a family. (They are big on family) Would be very hard to graduate, knowing all the cutting edge technology etc...then be 2 years out of it when you return.

If you think about it 19-21 is the time you make a lot of stupid, youthful decisions in life etc...during this time, instead of making/doing those dumb things, you are trading them in to 'growing up' etc.

[rolf tomato]

Feb 12, 2011 6:14:14 GMT -8 Borg said:

If you think about it 19-21 is the time you make a lot of stupid, youthful decisions in life etc...during this time, instead of making/doing those dumb things, you are trading them in to 'growing up' etc.

Except that, not only is making those stupid youthful decisions a lot more fun, they are part of the "growing up" process as well. Now, my personal feelings about "blue shirting" is, .......... we need to quit using that as an excuse. There is always advantages/disadvantages. Altitude, money (BCS), cheating, etc., etc., etc.. You play to win and you don't make excuses . There can be no other way. As soon as you start making excuses, you become a loser. JMO.

[ervaztec]

Feb 12, 2011 7:25:40 GMT -8 rolf tomato said:

Feb 12, 2011 6:14:14 GMT -8 Borg said:

If you think about it 19-21 is the time you make a lot of stupid, youthful decisions in life etc...during this time, instead of making/doing those dumb things, you are trading them in to 'growing up' etc.

Except that, not only is making those stupid youthful decisions a lot more fun, they are part of the "growing up" process as well. Now, my personal feelings about "blue shirting" is, .......... we need to quit using that as an excuse. There is always advantages/disadvantages. Altitude, money (BCS), cheating, etc., etc., etc.. You play to win and you don't make excuses . There can be no other way. As soon as you start making excuses, you become a loser. JMO.

Who's making excuses? If a Baseball team we played got 4 strikers per out and came on here and smugly condescended to us that it is actually not an advantage, would you be a "loser" if you objected? Or would you actually be a "LOSER" if you didn't say anything?