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Post by azdick on Feb 10, 2011 17:10:07 GMT -8
BYU has such an arrogance about them, it's amazing ... wow. Warning!! For those people who are easily upset and have a terrible dislike for BYU .. please don't read the attached article from today's salt lake city sports page that is aimed directly at the SDSU football program .. or you may have a brain aneurysm. Headline: "Worn-out excuse given to explain BYU success"
Quick summary: "SDSU, the way is now clear for a football championship, just get by young and immature Boise State to become king of the castle. Let the era of excuses in the MWC come to a torturous and welcome end.
Why don't they do it? They can't take the risk.
In my opinion, this "mature" issue that surfaces so readily smacks more of an excuse for failure of football programs that regularly compete against BYU. It is an excuse to their bosses, their fans and the media. In the heat of a third-quarter gap-control battle in the trenches, it gives a SDSU player an excuse: "Coach said he's older, I'm at a disadvantage so if I get beat, it's understandable."
It's a tune that's become old and sour.
To accept this premise is to swallow that losing to BYU can't be coaching failure, recruiting failure, strategy failure, facility failure and conditioning failure — it has to be because BYU has athletes an average of 1.4 years older. Give me a break." www.deseretnews.com/article/700108621/Worn-out-excuse-given-to-explain-BYU-success.html?pg=3
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Post by mykdanife on Feb 10, 2011 17:15:04 GMT -8
Always fun to revel in the BYU/LDS rationale that clean living and the fact that they are simply just better than the rest of us explains their gridiron success over the years. Oh, and the fact that God is clearly on their side. Couldn't possibly be the three year red shirt ("blue shirt") rule. Hey, we could always get those Aztec recruits to enlist in the Marine Corps and do the same thing.
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Post by ellbee on Feb 10, 2011 17:29:47 GMT -8
BYU has such an arrogance about them, it's amazing ... wow. I think the board you're looking for can be found HERE.
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Post by mfaulkhof2011 on Feb 10, 2011 17:44:38 GMT -8
Not sure if anyone caught my editorial response in the UT Sunday on this very topic in the Voices section, but I responded to a gal who was tired of BYU's "advantage". She wrote in response to Long saying he would no longer play BYU. My point to her was if taking a redshirt year and a two year mission wasn't a huge advantage, why do we see an epidemic of high school athletes who were "held back" for reasons other than academic. Being older, more mature and stronger is a huge advantage. Case in point, nationally two examples of this were Tyler Hansbrough and Amare Stoudemire who were nearly 20 years old when they graduated high school. The people on this board disguised as Aztec fans who really are BYU fans should smell the coffee and realize this advantage is reality and not jealousy on our part. Further, had the fumble been called correct they wouldn't have even made it to a bowl and would have finished 5-7. Lastly, don't get me started on the fantom PI call late in the game that gave them a first down and helped them run out the clock!
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Post by pokinsky on Feb 10, 2011 17:58:21 GMT -8
Being older, more mature and stronger is a huge advantage. Case in point, nationally two examples of this were Tyler Hansbrough and Amare Stoudemire who were nearly 20 years old when they graduated high school. You see it all the time now, especially with athletes. It's rare when you see a high school senior that graduates at 17-18 ... because 19-20 is becoming the norm. Sometimes (especially in basketball) it also works against a player because the draft is all about upside .. and if a player is already 24 the upside is much less. It also part of the reason so many basketball players are reclassifying to different grades.
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Post by kbcoug on Feb 10, 2011 18:47:54 GMT -8
Not sure if anyone caught my editorial response in the UT Sunday on this very topic in the Voices section, but I responded to a gal who was tired of BYU's "advantage". She wrote in response to Long saying he would no longer play BYU. My point to her was if taking a redshirt year and a two year mission wasn't a huge advantage, why do we see an epidemic of high school athletes who were "held back" for reasons other than academic. Being older, more mature and stronger is a huge advantage. Case in point, nationally two examples of this were Tyler Hansbrough and Amare Stoudemire who were nearly 20 years old when they graduated high school. The people on this board disguised as Aztec fans who really are BYU fans should smell the coffee and realize this advantage is reality and not jealousy on our part. Further, had the fumble been called correct they wouldn't have even made it to a bowl and would have finished 5-7. Lastly, don't get me started on the fantom PI call late in the game that gave them a first down and helped them run out the clock! Then why do so many under classmen at so many schools get playing time over all the seniors? Maybe there's a lot more to it than just being 2 years older equal a better player. How well would another school who signeded all the LDS players prior to going on missions do if they also had to recruit around the Honor Code that BYU has? The BYU team isn't just made up of returned missionaries at the 2 deep you know. Also, try to manage their scholarship maze with players going out, players coming back, players saying they're going out but change their minds or players saying they're not going out but then change their mind. Also, try planning next year on a kid on a mission being able to fill in and he either decides to transfer, not to play, or is unable to play because of conditioning or health. If you look at one facet of the BYU football program, and that is they have some players that are 2 years older, then I'll grant you they have an advantage; not the advantage you think they have because a really talented 19 year old is still better than an average talented 21 year old but for arguments sake I'll agree and say it's an advantage. The trouble is, you can't only look at the one facet when considering everything BYU has to do to manage the comings and goings of what they have. Last year we were all excited to have Harvey Unga, BYU's all time leading rusher back but he did a no-no, for which nothing would have happened at SDSU or any other university in the country but BYU cut him because he'd signed an agreement to live by certain rules and he didn't. You're being disengenuous when you portray BYU's huge advantage, as is Rocky Long, even more so because he knows better. Ask him how his try with the older more talented returned missionaries went for him at New Mexico. I believe he recruited 2 post mission, one played a couple of times one never saw the field.
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Post by ellbee on Feb 10, 2011 18:52:54 GMT -8
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Post by North County Aztec on Feb 10, 2011 19:23:20 GMT -8
Not sure if anyone caught my editorial response in the UT Sunday on this very topic in the Voices section, but I responded to a gal who was tired of BYU's "advantage". She wrote in response to Long saying he would no longer play BYU. My point to her was if taking a redshirt year and a two year mission wasn't a huge advantage, why do we see an epidemic of high school athletes who were "held back" for reasons other than academic. Being older, more mature and stronger is a huge advantage. Case in point, nationally two examples of this were Tyler Hansbrough and Amare Stoudemire who were nearly 20 years old when they graduated high school. The people on this board disguised as Aztec fans who really are BYU fans should smell the coffee and realize this advantage is reality and not jealousy on our part. Further, had the fumble been called correct they wouldn't have even made it to a bowl and would have finished 5-7. Lastly, don't get me started on the fantom PI call late in the game that gave them a first down and helped them run out the clock! Then why do so many under classmen at so many schools get playing time over all the seniors? Maybe there's a lot more to it than just being 2 years older equal a better player. How well would another school who signeded all the LDS players prior to going on missions do if they also had to recruit around the Honor Code that BYU has? The BYU team isn't just made up of returned missionaries at the 2 deep you know. Also, try to manage their scholarship maze with players going out, players coming back, players saying they're going out but change their minds or players saying they're not going out but then change their mind. Also, try planning next year on a kid on a mission being able to fill in and he either decides to transfer, not to play, or is unable to play because of conditioning or health. If you look at one facet of the BYU football program, and that is they have some players that are 2 years older, then I'll grant you they have an advantage; not the advantage you think they have because a really talented 19 year old is still better than an average talented 21 year old but for arguments sake I'll agree and say it's an advantage. The trouble is, you can't only look at the one facet when considering everything BYU has to do to manage the comings and goings of what they have. Last year we were all excited to have Harvey Unga, BYU's all time leading rusher back but he did a no-no, for which nothing would have happened at SDSU or any other university in the country but BYU cut him because he'd signed an agreement to live by certain rules and he didn't. You're being disengenuous when you portray BYU's huge advantage, as is Rocky Long, even more so because he knows better. Ask him how his try with the older more talented returned missionaries went for him at New Mexico. I believe he recruited 2 post mission, one played a couple of times one never saw the field. Drink the kool-aide dude but don't expect the thinking (non-cult) world to buy into you distortion of reality.
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Post by ervaztec on Feb 10, 2011 21:17:37 GMT -8
Then why do so many under classmen at so many schools get playing time over all the seniors? The underclassmen you refer to would all be better if they had 2 years to mature Maybe there's a lot more to it than just being 2 years older equal a better player. How well would another school who signed all the LDS players prior to going on missions do if they also had to recruit around the Honor Code that BYU has? The honor code is to BYU recruits what stretching is to a yoga practitioner. It's what they choose to do.The BYU team isn't just made up of returned missionaries at the 2 deep you know YES, they are!!! Virtually every player on BYUs roster goes on a mission. Also, try to manage their scholarship maze with players going out, players coming back, players saying they're going out but change their minds or players saying they're not going out but then change their mind. Also, try planning next year on a kid on a mission being able to fill in and he either decides to transfer, not to play, You make it sound like they are a bunch of Jr high girls trying to decide what to wear to the dance. They come back form their mission and are in the program for 4 years or is unable to play because of conditioning or health. The conditioning/health argument was proven in this thread to be bogus. Players on a mission have no other input in their lives than the Church/BYU. No tv, No girls, No internet, nothing. They are way more likely to come back to BYU after a mission than is a regular kid coming back from summer break after hanging with his friends
If you look at one facet of the BYU football program, and that is they have some players that are 2 years older, then I'll grant you they have an advantage; not the advantage you think they have because a really talented 19 year old is still better than an average talented 21 That comparison leaves you with little credibility year old but for arguments sake I'll agree and say it's an advantage. The trouble is, you can't only look at the one facet when considering everything BYU has to do to manage the comings and goings of what they have.
Last year we were all excited to have Harvey Unga, BYU's all time leading rusher back but he did a no-no, for which nothing would have happened at SDSU or any other university in the country but BYU cut him because he'd signed an agreement to live by certain rules and he didn't. I agree that your team would have been much better with him. This seems to be your only valid point
You're being disingenuous when you portray BYU's huge advantage, as is Rocky Long, even more so because he knows better. Ask him how his try with the older more talented returned missionaries went for him at New Mexico. I believe he recruited 2 post mission, one played a couple of times one never saw the field. Do you seriously think 2 player's experience is a valid sample? Maybe these guys just weren't that good to start with? Maybe when you return to BYU after a mission you are celebrated more than if you return to a secular school.[/quote]
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Post by aztec96 on Feb 10, 2011 21:46:17 GMT -8
I'm a HUGE aztec fan but also LDS. I went on a mission directly out of high school at 145 pds and came back 2 yrs later 175 pds. I played 2 yrs JC ball and then transferred to SDSU in the mid-90's and played for Fred Trenkle.
I can't wait for this to be an after thought... BYU is going independent/WCC and SDSU will stay in the MWC. I might even cheer for both teams, but I doubt it.
I was speaking to someone at church and they said that missions don't help BYU's skill positions but probably helps with the lines.
If I'm not correct, that's exactly what differentiates BYU and SDSU, their line play. BYU always kills SDSU in the trenches.
2011 Offensive line majority graduated from High School in 2005... over 6 years ago.
Matt Reynolds - HS 2005 - mission + redshirt - will be a JR 2011
Braden Hansen - HS 2006 - Mission - will be a JR 2011
Ryan Freeman - HS 2005 - Mission & Redshirt, will be a JR. in 2011
Terence Brown - HS 2004 - Mission & Redshirt, will be a SR. in 2011
Houston Reynolds - HS 2007 - will be SO in 2011
Marco Thorson - HS 2004 - redshirt & mission, will be a SR in 2011
Braden Brown - HS 2005 - mission & redshirt, will be a JR in 2011
Walter Kahalali'l - HS 2005 - redshirt & mission, will be a JR in 2011
It would be interesting to compare against the Aztecs O-line.
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Post by mfaulkhof2011 on Feb 10, 2011 21:52:27 GMT -8
The honor code argument is also hogwash. It's selectively enforced. Case in point, Jim McMahon, who partied as much or more than guys at schools without the so called honor code. If they need you bad enough, they make allowances for you.
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Post by ragin'aztec on Feb 10, 2011 22:13:18 GMT -8
The honor code argument is also hogwash. It's selectively enforced. Case in point, Jim McMahon, who partied as much or more than guys at schools without the so called honor code. If they need you bad enough, they make allowances for you. Fraud fraud fraud.... Fredette's a rock star on campus so he does whatever he wants. More power to him for that but look at these ridiculous rules for the ladies... from the *ahem* "honor code" Women
Clothing is inappropriate when it is sleeveless, strapless, backless, or revealing; has slits above the knee; or is form fitting. Dresses, skirts, and shorts must be knee length or longer. Hairstyles should be clean and neat, avoiding extremes in styles and colors. Excessive ear piercing (more than one per ear) and all other body piercing are not acceptable. Shoes should be worn in all public campus areas. Look at that. It's like the taliban is in charge at BYU. Well, not quite..... -filmed in a chapel on the BYU campus
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Post by bearfoot on Feb 10, 2011 23:49:19 GMT -8
I probably should have saved this until the week of the BYU game but...After being clubbed over the head repeatedly by BYU posters here and on the UT with stories about 300lb linemen returning from missions weighting 185 lbs I decided to check it out for myself. Below is a list of the 31 scholarship football players from BYU’s 2010 football roster who have gone on missions and are listed as Jr or Sr. Virtually ALL Jr & Sr on the roster have served on missions. Of the 31 who went on missions 23 had significant playing time their first year back as Fourth-year-out-of-high-school “freshmen.” That’s the same high school class as Trask Iosefa. Would you like to have him for three (3) more years? 18 went on missions to places like Europe, The US or Japan. 10 went to countries like Chile, Brazil, Mexico. Only 3 served in developing countries (Jamaica, Madagascar & Mozambique) ALL 3 of these players contributed significantly their first year back. These players clearly had no ill affects from their missions and almost appear to have come back MORE ready to play college football than when they left based on their on field production. Also, VERY few if any of them appear to have experienced the heart wrenching physical trauma that we were lead to believe these missions cause. Maybe this sample is too small but for what it is the results were very surprising. BYU is doing nothing illegal. But, it is clear to me that their program is built on Blue Shirting players for 2 years thus creating a hybrid athlete that exist no where else in college football… “The 4th year RS Freshmen.” Sr Name Mission Played after mission Jameson Frazier: Montreal, Canada, Maybe Romney Fuga: Antananarivo Madagascar, Yes Spencer Hafoka: Ventura, CA, Yes McKay Jacobson: Sapporo, Japan, Yes Bryan Kariya: Melbourne, Australia, Yes Aveni Leung-Wai: Rochester, New York, Maybe Matt Putnam: McAllen, Texas, Yes, 7th year senior Matt Reynolds: Munich, Germany, Yes, 21year old frosh AA Marco Thorson: Rancagua, Chile, Yes Travis Uale: Monterrey, Mexico, Yes Jadon Wagner: Denver, Colorado, Yes JR Braden Brown, San Juan, Puerto Rico. yes Robbie Buckner, Maputo, Mozambique yes David foote, Colombia Bogota No Ryan Freeman: Chile Yes Preston Hadley, New York, New York, Yes Mike Hague, Knoxville, Tennessee. No, Season ending injury. Braden Hansen, Philadelphia, Penn, Yes 21 year old frosh All American Connell Hess, Richmond Va, Yes Reed Hornung, Jamaica Kingston Mission, Yes Walter Kahaiali'I, Australia Melbourne Mission, No Knee injury 335lbs James Lark, St. Petersburg, Russia No, Back up QB Eathyn Manumaleuna, Oklahoma City, Yes Carter Mees, Houston, Texas, Yes, Zed Mendenhall, Brazil, Yes Riley Nelson, Barcelona, Spain, Maybe Austin Nielsen, Tacoma, Washington, No Brandon Ogletree, Chile, Yes Matt Peterson, Apia, Samoa, Yes Jordan Richardson, Brazil, Yes Riley Stephenson, Auckland, New Zealand, Yes Dalin Tollestrup, Belize, maybe I don't know for a fact but I'd be willing to bet that if you took all the missionaries that go out for the LDS church in any given year you'd find that these areas where football players are going are pretty much representative of about any group this size, pulled at random. What you don't understand, don't want to understand and will never accept is that for 2 years these young men are too fricking busy with what they go out to do that they don't have the time to do all those wonderful things you suggest they're doing. The missionary program for the LDS church isn't some farm system to get BYU football players in great shape and two years older just to beat teams like the Aztecs. Bla Bla Bla, you folks are experts at using the straw man. What most are saying here, isn't that the missionaries are working out for football or basketball, what i've read is that they are getting older, and their bodies are naturally maturing. Please address what this thread is about, and not the talking points delivered by the Borg Pub department. Tell us if you think a 21 year old freshman has a more, or less mature body and mind, than one that is 18. Thanks
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Post by bearfoot on Feb 11, 2011 0:06:15 GMT -8
The honor code argument is also hogwash. It's selectively enforced. Case in point, Jim McMahon, who partied as much or more than guys at schools without the so called honor code. If they need you bad enough, they make allowances for you. Yup, what you wrote and we ought to ask Allison Duffy what happens if SDSU student violates "those" rules. She'd tell you that she was suspended for an entire season.
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Post by chakha on Feb 11, 2011 0:16:25 GMT -8
The title of this thread indicates that you all seem to believe that BYU sends kids on missions for the purpose of gaining an advantage in collegiate athletics, like parents who hold their kids back in kindergarten so they are 19 year old seniors. BYU doesn't have anything to do with missions. The LDS church encourages them to go when they are 19 or older, without regard to their interests or abilities.
We can debate all day whether it's an advantage or not, and neither side will be move. For what it's worth, I believe it is an advantage with some individual athletes, but a disadvantage with others. What you don't see in your stats are the talented kids who come back but never play again, for a variety of reasons. Your stats don't show the holes in the continuity of the program caused by these kids who don't play. This is in addition to the normal attrition from grades, transfers, injuries, etc. Your stats don't show the other disruptions missions cause in a program generally.
None of this factors in the attrition at BYU from Honor Code violations, something few, if any, other universities have. See, with every advantage, there are disadvantages. You don't see the disadvantages because you're not all familiar with the entire package of pros and cons that come with attendance at BYU. This is not meant as a cut in any way. It's just reality.
If you removed the religious/moral aspect of missions, and you asked Bronco whether or not he would prefer a large percentage of his kids leave football and athletic training of any kind for 2 years, I'd bet you a $1,000 he'd say no, that's it's more disruptive to the overall program than the benefit he gets from the extra age.
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Post by chakha on Feb 11, 2011 0:26:52 GMT -8
Let's look at Bball. Of the 6 top players in BYU's current rotation, only 2 served missions. Hartsock and Emery served missions. Davies, K Collinsworth, Fredette and Abouo did not. The back end of the bench--all returned missionaries. If they are that much better after 2 extra years, why aren't the older returned missionaries starting. Oh, and the other player in the 6-man rotation, Chris Collinsworth, is out for the year with injury in his first year back from a mission.
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Post by ellbee on Feb 11, 2011 9:23:56 GMT -8
None of this factors in the attrition at BYU from Honor Code violations, something few, if any, other universities have. All of the Service Academies have Honor Codes, as does Virginia - so "few" is correct, but "if any" is not.
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Post by kbcoug on Feb 11, 2011 9:41:24 GMT -8
The honor code argument is also hogwash. It's selectively enforced. Case in point, Jim McMahon, who partied as much or more than guys at schools without the so called honor code. If they need you bad enough, they make allowances for you. Ya, ok, whatever. Tell that to Harvey Unga the next time you see him. Tell that to the 8 DB's recruited by the former BYU coach who didn't emphasize the Honor Code. He lost an entire class of DB's to honor code violations. If whining about older players, cheating refs, not enforcing the honor code, offensive linemen who hold all the time makes you feel a lot better about getting beat so many times by BYU then enjoy yourself, it's a free country, at least for now. Just because I say it isn't the advantage you all seem to believe it is doesn't make it so; just like you whining that it's the only advantage and only reason why you can't beat us regularly doesn't make that the truth either.
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Post by kbcoug on Feb 11, 2011 9:43:29 GMT -8
The honor code argument is also hogwash. It's selectively enforced. Case in point, Jim McMahon, who partied as much or more than guys at schools without the so called honor code. If they need you bad enough, they make allowances for you. Fraud fraud fraud.... Fredette's a rock star on campus so he does whatever he wants. More power to him for that but look at these ridiculous rules for the ladies... from the *ahem* "honor code" Women
Clothing is inappropriate when it is sleeveless, strapless, backless, or revealing; has slits above the knee; or is form fitting. Dresses, skirts, and shorts must be knee length or longer. Hairstyles should be clean and neat, avoiding extremes in styles and colors. Excessive ear piercing (more than one per ear) and all other body piercing are not acceptable. Shoes should be worn in all public campus areas. Look at that. It's like the taliban is in charge at BYU. Well, not quite..... -filmed in a chapel on the BYU campus You know what? If I were you I'd really show the Taliban in Provo. I wouldn't apply to go there, that will teach them. I'll bet if you do that it'll really hurt BYU to the core.
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Post by kbcoug on Feb 11, 2011 9:56:43 GMT -8
I don't know for a fact but I'd be willing to bet that if you took all the missionaries that go out for the LDS church in any given year you'd find that these areas where football players are going are pretty much representative of about any group this size, pulled at random. What you don't understand, don't want to understand and will never accept is that for 2 years these young men are too fricking busy with what they go out to do that they don't have the time to do all those wonderful things you suggest they're doing. The missionary program for the LDS church isn't some farm system to get BYU football players in great shape and two years older just to beat teams like the Aztecs. Bla Bla Bla, you folks are experts at using the straw man. What most are saying here, isn't that the missionaries are working out for football or basketball, what i've read is that they are getting older, and their bodies are naturally maturing. Please address what this thread is about, and not the talking points delivered by the Borg Pub department. Tell us if you think a 21 year old freshman has a more, or less mature body and mind, than one that is 18. Thanks What difference would it make if you were told again; you won't believe any of it because it doesn't fit into what you've already decided is true. If you took identical twins and all environmental things were equal; same food, same levels of activity, etc and you compared one of them at 19 with one at 21 yes, you'd see a more mature body and probably mind. Does that make you feel better? In a scientific labratory experiment where everything has to be equal you are 100% correct! Most of you need to read no farther because this is what you want to hear some BYU person admit. The trouble is you can't compare a 19 year old and a 21 year old that way if you're comparing to see a difference that missions have because all environmental factors will be different. The 21 year old will still be more mature, especially mentally; big difference mentally even between a 21 year old who's been living at home and going to school to a 21 year old who's been on a 2 year mission. That's where the disconnect between what you say and what BYU fans say happen. The 21 year old at home is able to schedule workouts and other things to help the physical maturity in a much different way than the 21 year old has been able to do on a mission. A 21 year old college sophomore or junior who's been working out with a football team will be more physically ready to play than a 21 year old return missionary coming home from anywhere, and much more ready than from some places the missionary could have been sent. That's why we see things differently
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