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Post by survalli on May 31, 2010 0:08:46 GMT -8
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Post by aztecwin on May 31, 2010 6:47:29 GMT -8
Just how much longer can this powder keg, which is the entire Middle East, keep from blowing up?
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Post by survalli on May 31, 2010 8:34:15 GMT -8
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Post by aztecwin on May 31, 2010 8:48:50 GMT -8
I know that both the US and Israel must show some restraint, but I can't help but feel we should not bother boarding these ships, but just sink them.
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Post by survalli on May 31, 2010 8:56:21 GMT -8
I know that both the US and Israel must show some restraint, but I can't help but feel we should not bother boarding these ships, but just sink them. because we are not like them.. i wish were though.
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Post by AztecWilliam on May 31, 2010 9:47:51 GMT -8
It seems to me that one key element that might help defuse the Israel/Palestine conflict would be to cut off aid to the terrorist groups. And who is the major supplier of funds and materiel to Hammas, etc.? Why, Iran, of course!
AzWm
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Post by Deleted on May 31, 2010 10:52:10 GMT -8
It seems to me that one key element that might help defuse the Israel/Palestine conflict would be to cut off aid to the terrorist groups. And who is the major supplier of funds and materiel to Hammas, etc.? Why, Iran, of course! AzWm Actually, I think you'd find the EU and the US through the UN to be the biggest funders of the Hamas Kleptocracy if you looked into it.
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Post by AztecWilliam on May 31, 2010 11:33:07 GMT -8
It seems to me that one key element that might help defuse the Israel/Palestine conflict would be to cut off aid to the terrorist groups. And who is the major supplier of funds and materiel to Hammas, etc.? Why, Iran, of course! AzWm Actually, I think you'd find the EU and the US through the UN to be the biggest funders of the Hamas Kleptocracy if you looked into it. Please don't get me started on the United Nations! The 21st Century equivalent of the League of Nationss AzWm
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Post by aztecwin on May 31, 2010 13:01:28 GMT -8
I know that both the US and Israel must show some restraint, but I can't help but feel we should not bother boarding these ships, but just sink them. because we are not like them.. i wish were though. If what you meant to say we don't just sink them is because we are not like them, buy you wish we were, then we agree. I would not be so barbaric if I had the power to make the decisions however.
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Post by hoobs on May 31, 2010 22:58:18 GMT -8
(...knows nothing good can come from dipping toes in political forum area, but cannot help myself...)
Maybe it's bad indigestion, but this incident really has set me off. And, well, let's say I see this a little differently than those of you who have already spoken. And, it's late so apologies for what will inevitably be a rambling diatribe.
The raid occurred in international waters. That means... whatever knives, clubs, & any small arms the activists had... they were entitled to use against an hostile/illegal boarding by a military force. I might be using a somewhat narrow interpretation of the issue, but at the very least there are HUGE questions about whether or not Israel had any legal justification for the raid. If you assert that it is to support the naval blockade of Gaza... that's fine, and while generally 'endorsed' by the U.S. and other nations, that does not necessarily make the naval blockade legal to begin with. But if one is to accept the legality of the blockade, action taken at that distance has VERY little legal authority to back it up.
But the whole thing falls in like with this ultra-hawkish Israeli regime. Israel's continuous denial of a humanitarian disaster in Gaza is repugnant. Israel's own actions in Gaza (& to a *slightly* lesser extent the West Bank as well) are... I'll throw out a vague number... 50% to blame for the radicalization seen there. Yes, then the Hamas & other terrorist scum are to blame for the other 50%. But they would not have a fertile breeding ground for recruitment and indoctrination if it were not for the living conditions, the Israeli policy of 'collective punishment,' the abhorrent actions by an admittedly small but significant number of radical settlers & troops (actions just as vile as the atrocities committed by Hamas), and so on.
But all that is just my soapbox. As far as this incident... it is absolutely correct to see that both sides are -- ironically -- working to together so to speak to push this powder keg toward open flame. Netanyahu & his ultra-hawkish brethren are spoiling for a fight, no question about it. And the left-wing activists (I'll treat the leftist ultra-radicals separately) see a chance to exploit the divide being created between the current Israeli regime and conventional opinion worldwide. Israeli PR has NEVER been in this bad of a condition for decades. Or more. International opinion (by that I mean, mostly, Western & Central Europe) has been against Israel since the first Intifada. American public opinion, however, had not strongly wavered until about 5 years or so ago. Since then, the cracks have been emerging and now the shift is becoming *very* noticeable. The very blatant, and let's not kid ourselves, INTENTIONAL snubs against Biden & Obama re. the East Jerusalem settlement issue have pissed off our current administration and really taken aback some of the moderately strong "conventional" Israel-supporters here (by "here" I mean in Congress, the D.C. 'beltway' policy world, and outside the D.C. community as well).
Soooooo, where I'm going with this is to affirm the notion that the Middle East 'crisis' is unlikely to dissipate or be moderated anytime soon. In my mind, the only question is what in form does the inevitable violent confrontation take place? However, with apologies, I'm not going to publicly speculate about that...
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Post by aztecwin on Jun 1, 2010 4:57:59 GMT -8
(...knows nothing good can come from dipping toes in political forum area, but cannot help myself...) Maybe it's bad indigestion, but this incident really has set me off. And, well, let's say I see this a little differently than those of you who have already spoken. And, it's late so apologies for what will inevitably be a rambling diatribe. The raid occurred in international waters. That means... whatever knives, clubs, & any small arms the activists had... they were entitled to use against an hostile/illegal boarding by a military force. I might be using a somewhat narrow interpretation of the issue, but at the very least there are HUGE questions about whether or not Israel had any legal justification for the raid. If you assert that it is to support the naval blockade of Gaza... that's fine, and while generally 'endorsed' by the U.S. and other nations, that does not necessarily make the naval blockade legal to begin with. But if one is to accept the legality of the blockade, action taken at that distance has VERY little legal authority to back it up. But the whole thing falls in like with this ultra-hawkish Israeli regime. Israel's continuous denial of a humanitarian disaster in Gaza is repugnant. Israel's own actions in Gaza (& to a *slightly* lesser extent the West Bank as well) are... I'll throw out a vague number... 50% to blame for the radicalization seen there. Yes, then the Hamas & other terrorist scum are to blame for the other 50%. But they would not have a fertile breeding ground for recruitment and indoctrination if it were not for the living conditions, the Israeli policy of 'collective punishment,' the abhorrent actions by an admittedly small but significant number of radical settlers & troops (actions just as vile as the atrocities committed by Hamas), and so on. But all that is just my soapbox. As far as this incident... it is absolutely correct to see that both sides are -- ironically -- working to together so to speak to push this powder keg toward open flame. Netanyahu & his ultra-hawkish brethren are spoiling for a fight, no question about it. And the left-wing activists (I'll treat the leftist ultra-radicals separately) see a chance to exploit the divide being created between the current Israeli regime and conventional opinion worldwide. Israeli PR has NEVER been in this bad of a condition for decades. Or more. International opinion (by that I mean, mostly, Western & Central Europe) has been against Israel since the first Intifada. American public opinion, however, had not strongly wavered until about 5 years or so ago. Since then, the cracks have been emerging and now the shift is becoming *very* noticeable. The very blatant, and let's not kid ourselves, INTENTIONAL snubs against Biden & Obama re. the East Jerusalem settlement issue have pissed off our current administration and really taken aback some of the moderately strong "conventional" Israel-supporters here (by "here" I mean in Congress, the D.C. 'beltway' policy world, and outside the D.C. community as well). Soooooo, where I'm going with this is to affirm the notion that the Middle East 'crisis' is unlikely to dissipate or be moderated anytime soon. In my mind, the only question is what in form does the inevitable violent confrontation take place? However, with apologies, I'm not going to publicly speculate about that... I think we all should take another look. These ships were asked (ordered) to get inspected and if no contraband was found they would be allowed to proceed. They evidently (and legally) ignored that demand. What happened is ugly and you can only blame the volatile middle east environment. Who can blame Israel, who is under constant bombardment from Gaza, to try to keep weapons our of the hands of those folks? Even to do so in violation of International law is justified in my view. I side with Israel.
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Post by hoobs on Jun 1, 2010 9:38:06 GMT -8
These ships were asked (ordered) to get inspected and if no contraband was found they would be allowed to proceed. Actually, that partially the point... Israel is not allowing ANYTHING into Gaza. Pretty much ZERO humanitarian or relief supplies. Period. Being boarded and inspected was NOT an option. Being boarded and forced to dock at an Israeli port, or turn around, were the only options per the Israeli military. And truthfully, so do I, for the most part. I just have a different opinion on tactics and strategy for what is in both the best interests of Israel, AND the U.S.
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Post by aztecwin on Jun 1, 2010 11:29:00 GMT -8
You can read about this and many other issues from a mostly Israeli point of view. www.debka.com/
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Post by hoobs on Jun 1, 2010 11:43:49 GMT -8
You can read about this and many other issues from a mostly Israeli point of view. www.debka.com/Wow, what a bunch of tripe... almost as bad as Fox Noise Channel... I mean, if you want to go that route, you should also read this: palsolidarity.org/If you want something actually somewhat reasonable, if there is such thing in that region, then this is where you should go: www.btselem.org/
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Post by Deleted on Jun 1, 2010 12:15:22 GMT -8
I'd be much more sympathetic to the Palestinians if they were actually attempting to build a nation and treat their own citizens with respect. This is NOT the case. They intend to prolong the suffering of the populace so as to further their long-term goal; the destruction of Israel and the extermination of Jews. Those that run Gaza are corrupt thugs of the highest order. If their goal was peace and prosperity for their people, they would be well along that path, with the AID of the Israelis.
Gaza could be the 21st century version of Lebanon if they so choose. They have miles of Mediterranean beachfront and the ability to turn their little spot of earth into a banking and financial center. Instead of building bombs and indoctrinating their children with hate, they could build a world class university and turn out a 21st century work force. They could grow their own food instead of living at the end of an aid supply line. They are small enough and homogeneous enough to enact a liberal social model and be very successful at it with world financial institutions funding their entire government through employment and operating taxes. They have chosen to do NONE of these things. Why? Because those in power are making money hand over fist by manipulating the western guilt and stealing the proceeds.
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Post by hoobs on Jun 1, 2010 12:37:37 GMT -8
I'd be much more sympathetic to the Palestinians if they were actually attempting to build a nation and treat their own citizens with respect. This is NOT the case. They intend to prolong the suffering of the populace so as to further their long-term goal; the destruction of Israel and the extermination of Jews. Those that run Gaza are corrupt thugs of the highest order. If their goal was peace and prosperity for their people, they would be well along that path, with the AID of the Israelis. Gaza could be the 21st century version of Lebanon if they so choose. They have miles of Mediterranean beachfront and the ability to turn their little spot of earth into a banking and financial center. Instead of building bombs and indoctrinating their children with hate, they could build a world class university and turn out a 21st century work force. They could grow their own food instead of living at the end of an aid supply line. They are small enough and homogeneous enough to enact a liberal social model and be very successful at it with world financial institutions funding their entire government through employment and operating taxes. They have chosen to do NONE of these things. Why? Because those in power are making money hand over fist by manipulating the western guilt and stealing the proceeds. There are a couple grains of truth there, but the rest is excessive hyperbole or fabrication. "Those that run Gaza are corrupt thugs of the highest order." -- Agree 100% "They intend to prolong the suffering of the populace so as to further their long-term goal" -- Not NEARLY as true for the Palestinian leadership in the West Bank. Plenty of corrupt politicians? Yes, but hell, you can say the same thing for Washington DC, on both sides of the aisle. "Gaza could be the 21st century version of Lebanon if they so choose." -- WHOA!!! Hold on there. Gaza was run as a quasi Aparteid state by the Israeli military for a VERY long time until just a couple years ago... and Israel continues to suffocate Gaza with an iron fist. If the most altruistic government ever conceived were in charge, they would have zero chance of accomplishing positive reform in Gaza. The right-wing Israeli hawks believe they are able to further-entrench their own power by worsening the humanitarian disaster, inviting further radicalization, and then crying 'security' to promote their ambitions. There are no materials nor equipment to build financial centers, schools, farms, houses, or even a shed. Nor are they empowered to collect their own taxes, those go to Israel... who, then it sees fit, provides small dispursements to Fatah if/when they feel like it. So, that sounds like a nice vision for Gaza, but let's face facts and acknowledge that Israel logistically controls the mechanisms making this impossible. It would also be impossible because Hamas has little interest in such a vision, but let's not ignore the Israeli role...
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Post by Deleted on Jun 1, 2010 13:42:30 GMT -8
I'd be much more sympathetic to the Palestinians if they were actually attempting to build a nation and treat their own citizens with respect. This is NOT the case. They intend to prolong the suffering of the populace so as to further their long-term goal; the destruction of Israel and the extermination of Jews. Those that run Gaza are corrupt thugs of the highest order. If their goal was peace and prosperity for their people, they would be well along that path, with the AID of the Israelis. Gaza could be the 21st century version of Lebanon if they so choose. They have miles of Mediterranean beachfront and the ability to turn their little spot of earth into a banking and financial center. Instead of building bombs and indoctrinating their children with hate, they could build a world class university and turn out a 21st century work force. They could grow their own food instead of living at the end of an aid supply line. They are small enough and homogeneous enough to enact a liberal social model and be very successful at it with world financial institutions funding their entire government through employment and operating taxes. They have chosen to do NONE of these things. Why? Because those in power are making money hand over fist by manipulating the western guilt and stealing the proceeds. There are a couple grains of truth there, but the rest is excessive hyperbole or fabrication. "Those that run Gaza are corrupt thugs of the highest order." -- Agree 100% "They intend to prolong the suffering of the populace so as to further their long-term goal" -- Not NEARLY as true for the Palestinian leadership in the West Bank. Plenty of corrupt politicians? Yes, but hell, you can say the same thing for Washington DC, on both sides of the aisle. "Gaza could be the 21st century version of Lebanon if they so choose." -- WHOA!!! Hold on there. Gaza was run as a quasi Aparteid state by the Israeli military for a VERY long time until just a couple years ago... and Israel continues to suffocate Gaza with an iron fist. If the most altruistic government ever conceived were in charge, they would have zero chance of accomplishing positive reform in Gaza. The right-wing Israeli hawks believe they are able to further-entrench their own power by worsening the humanitarian disaster, inviting further radicalization, and then crying 'security' to promote their ambitions. There are no materials nor equipment to build financial centers, schools, farms, houses, or even a shed. Nor are they empowered to collect their own taxes, those go to Israel... who, then it sees fit, provides small dispursements to Fatah if/when they feel like it. So, that sounds like a nice vision for Gaza, but let's face facts and acknowledge that Israel logistically controls the mechanisms making this impossible. It would also be impossible because Hamas has little interest in such a vision, but let's not ignore the Israeli role... There is no benefit to Israel to have a radicalized force on their border bent on the destruction of their state AND their people, right wingers or not. Granted, Gaza was controlled for a very long time by Israel. It is not now. what have the thugs that run the joint done even in that relatively short period of time to actually help the population? Nothing, that's what. They have only stepped up their efforts against the Jews and further radicalized the populace. They have made not one single step in the direction of forming an actual Palestinian state. If the Jews left tomorrow, the Arabs in that region would still be poor, under-educated and wards of the worlds largess. They fared no better under the Ottomans, the Egyptians or the English. Their Arab brothers in Syria have massacred as many of them as the Jews ever have and the Hashemites in Jordan treat them like stray dogs. The last thing on any Arab leaders mind is the people that live there. In fact, my guess would be that 5 minutes after the Jews left, the Syrian army would roll in and take control under the banner of Greater Syria. The people at that point would be far worse off because the world doesn't really care if Arabs oppress Arabs as long as there's no oil involved, and there isn't. Make some progress towards a stable state that treats its citizens with dignity and respect. Then I'll waste my sympathies on the oppressed Arabs. Keep up the nonsense and I say let the strong horse win.
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Post by aztecwin on Jun 1, 2010 15:22:09 GMT -8
You can read about this and many other issues from a mostly Israeli point of view. www.debka.com/Wow, what a bunch of tripe... almost as bad as Fox Noise Channel... I mean, if you want to go that route, you should also read this: palsolidarity.org/If you want something actually somewhat reasonable, if there is such thing in that region, then this is where you should go: www.btselem.org/I said it was from the Israeli point of view. What do you expect?
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Post by hoobs on Jun 1, 2010 15:34:28 GMT -8
I said it was from the Israeli point of view. What do you expect? Ha ha, I meant nothing by it... just following suit and throwing out some other sites. The pro-Israel PR machine is very impressive, they manage to turn out an unbelievable array of "news" mags, blogs, etc. all spewing nicely spun narratives. The other side(s) try to do the same, just aren't nearly as good at it. But no, sorry... I didn't mean anything by my response!
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Post by hoobs on Jun 1, 2010 15:44:36 GMT -8
There are a couple grains of truth there, but the rest is excessive hyperbole or fabrication. "Those that run Gaza are corrupt thugs of the highest order." -- Agree 100% "They intend to prolong the suffering of the populace so as to further their long-term goal" -- Not NEARLY as true for the Palestinian leadership in the West Bank. Plenty of corrupt politicians? Yes, but hell, you can say the same thing for Washington DC, on both sides of the aisle. "Gaza could be the 21st century version of Lebanon if they so choose." -- WHOA!!! Hold on there. Gaza was run as a quasi Aparteid state by the Israeli military for a VERY long time until just a couple years ago... and Israel continues to suffocate Gaza with an iron fist. If the most altruistic government ever conceived were in charge, they would have zero chance of accomplishing positive reform in Gaza. The right-wing Israeli hawks believe they are able to further-entrench their own power by worsening the humanitarian disaster, inviting further radicalization, and then crying 'security' to promote their ambitions. There are no materials nor equipment to build financial centers, schools, farms, houses, or even a shed. Nor are they empowered to collect their own taxes, those go to Israel... who, then it sees fit, provides small dispursements to Fatah if/when they feel like it. So, that sounds like a nice vision for Gaza, but let's face facts and acknowledge that Israel logistically controls the mechanisms making this impossible. It would also be impossible because Hamas has little interest in such a vision, but let's not ignore the Israeli role... There is no benefit to Israel to have a radicalized force on their border bent on the destruction of their state AND their people, right wingers or not. Granted, Gaza was controlled for a very long time by Israel. It is not now. what have the thugs that run the joint done even in that relatively short period of time to actually help the population? Nothing, that's what. They have only stepped up their efforts against the Jews and further radicalized the populace. They have made not one single step in the direction of forming an actual Palestinian state. If the Jews left tomorrow, the Arabs in that region would still be poor, under-educated and wards of the worlds largess. They fared no better under the Ottomans, the Egyptians or the English. Their Arab brothers in Syria have massacred as many of them as the Jews ever have and the Hashemites in Jordan treat them like stray dogs. The last thing on any Arab leaders mind is the people that live there. In fact, my guess would be that 5 minutes after the Jews left, the Syrian army would roll in and take control under the banner of Greater Syria. The people at that point would be far worse off because the world doesn't really care if Arabs oppress Arabs as long as there's no oil involved, and there isn't. Make some progress towards a stable state that treats its citizens with dignity and respect. Then I'll waste my sympathies on the oppressed Arabs. Keep up the nonsense and I say let the strong horse win. The Palestinian diaspora is actually EXTREMELY well-educated, and in the West Bank at least, they still do a pretty decent job of cobbling together a decent education system, despite the road blocks (both literal & figurative). Birzeit University in Ramallah (http://www.birzeit.edu/) is actually a pretty good school, and retains remarkably solid academics for all the extensive problems they face... such as the Israelis shutting it down for about 5 years in the 90's... when professors would hold classes at midnight, 2am, 4am in basements. A couple entire graduating classes took all their studies in that fashion. I've met several graduates from Birzeit, all very wonderful people. Very intelligent, well-educated, and very ideologically moderate. Shockingly, West Bank Muslim Palestinians continue to be among the most ideologically moderate (i.e., religiously moderate/liberal) of all the Muslim people in the Middle East. And lets not forget about the Palestinian Christians. How many other Arab "countries" in the region have a national beer?
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