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Post by AlwaysAnAztec on Jun 1, 2010 16:45:59 GMT -8
You guys are missing a very very big something here. That 'something' is who's ship was attacked. The ship in question was a Turkish flagged ship. Israel attacked a Turkish flagged ship in international waters. That is an act of war plain and simple. We DON'T want this to escalate much further. Turkey is NOT a 3rd world Arab country with a piss poor military. They have a 1st world military with 1st world training AND.... they are a member of NATO!!!! The U.S., as well as the rest of Europe, is bound by treaty to come to their assistance if asked.
Cooler heads need to fix this problem, and now.
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Post by hoobs on Jun 1, 2010 17:18:41 GMT -8
You guys are missing a very very big something here. That 'something' is who's ship was attacked. The ship in question was a Turkish flagged ship. Israel attacked a Turkish flagged ship in international waters. That is an act of war plain and simple. We DON'T want this to escalate much further. Turkey is NOT a 3rd world Arab country with a piss poor military. They have a 1st world military with 1st world training AND.... they are a member of NATO!!!! The U.S., as well as the rest of Europe, is bound by treaty to come to their assistance if asked. Cooler heads need to fix this problem, and now. Outstanding point AAA, good catch on yet another, immediately more important issue. Regrettably, cooler heads aren't in power in Israel right now. Fortunately, Turkey has been VERY restrained thus far, and deserve much respect for that. |
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Post by survalli on Jun 1, 2010 17:22:57 GMT -8
You guys are missing a very very big something here. That 'something' is who's ship was attacked. The ship in question was a Turkish flagged ship. Israel attacked a Turkish flagged ship in international waters. That is an act of war plain and simple. We DON'T want this to escalate much further. Turkey is NOT a 3rd world Arab country with a piss poor military. They have a 1st world military with 1st world training AND.... they are a member of NATO!!!! The U.S., as well as the rest of Europe, is bound by treaty to come to their assistance if asked. Cooler heads need to fix this problem, and now. negative, not a violation of international waters Israeli does not need to wait until these "activists" enter Israeli waters. read the following alternate take for the reasoning. www.huffingtonpost.com/alan-dershowitz/israels-actions-were-enti_b_596285.html |
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Post by hoobs on Jun 1, 2010 17:40:56 GMT -8
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Post by survalli on Jun 1, 2010 19:38:43 GMT -8
www.icrc.org/IHL.nsf/52d68d14de6160e0c12563da005fdb1b/7694fe2016f347e1c125641f002d49ce!OpenDocument 67. Merchant vessels flying the flag of neutral States may not be attacked unless they: (a) are believed on reasonable grounds to be carrying contraband or breaching a blockade, and after prior warning they intentionally and clearly refuse to stop, or intentionally and clearly resist visit, search or capture. this is the international law!
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Post by AztecWilliam on Jun 1, 2010 22:05:19 GMT -8
Just for the record, an Israeli spokesman said on TV Tues. night that Israel was sending 1800 tons of humanitarian supplies into Gaza each week.
As for the flotilla, they had the choice of going to an Israeli OR an Egyptian port to have their cargoes certified as being humanitarian only, whereupon the material would be send into Gaza. In fact, the Israelis have sent the material contained on these ships to Gaza after inspection.
It's clear the flotilla organizers did intend to provoke a reaction, and Israel took the bait. But we should keep in mind how small and besieged Israel is before condemning it. If we were in their spot we would be just as jumpy.
I can't see any other conclusion other than that those in control of Gaza, as well as groups elsewhere in the region, will accept nothing less than the extermination of Israel. When you are on the other side of the discussion, that attitude represents a pretty poor position to bargain over. What are the Israelis to do, suggest that they meet the Palestinians half way and accept the annihilation of HALF of Israel? I think not.
AzWm
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Post by hoobs on Jun 2, 2010 6:41:56 GMT -8
Wow, really... the 'poor small little beseiged Israel' angle? I thought this was a discussion forum, not a talking-points dissemination board.
None of this changes my assessment that Israel is acting like a bunch of grade-A morons who are casting their country down a very deep, dark hole. I'm obviously not going to have an impact on your opinion, so I won't try.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 2, 2010 8:53:15 GMT -8
Maybe you could supply some links showing the range of opinion on the Palestinian side? Oops, sorry, I forgot. Not allowed. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 2, 2010 9:51:21 GMT -8
There is no benefit to Israel to have a radicalized force on their border bent on the destruction of their state AND their people, right wingers or not. Granted, Gaza was controlled for a very long time by Israel. It is not now. what have the thugs that run the joint done even in that relatively short period of time to actually help the population? Nothing, that's what. They have only stepped up their efforts against the Jews and further radicalized the populace. They have made not one single step in the direction of forming an actual Palestinian state. If the Jews left tomorrow, the Arabs in that region would still be poor, under-educated and wards of the worlds largess. They fared no better under the Ottomans, the Egyptians or the English. Their Arab brothers in Syria have massacred as many of them as the Jews ever have and the Hashemites in Jordan treat them like stray dogs. The last thing on any Arab leaders mind is the people that live there. In fact, my guess would be that 5 minutes after the Jews left, the Syrian army would roll in and take control under the banner of Greater Syria. The people at that point would be far worse off because the world doesn't really care if Arabs oppress Arabs as long as there's no oil involved, and there isn't. Make some progress towards a stable state that treats its citizens with dignity and respect. Then I'll waste my sympathies on the oppressed Arabs. Keep up the nonsense and I say let the strong horse win. The Palestinian diaspora is actually EXTREMELY well-educated, and in the West Bank at least, they still do a pretty decent job of cobbling together a decent education system, despite the road blocks (both literal & figurative). Birzeit University in Ramallah (http://www.birzeit.edu/) is actually a pretty good school, and retains remarkably solid academics for all the extensive problems they face... such as the Israelis shutting it down for about 5 years in the 90's... when professors would hold classes at midnight, 2am, 4am in basements. A couple entire graduating classes took all their studies in that fashion. I've met several graduates from Birzeit, all very wonderful people. Very intelligent, well-educated, and very ideologically moderate. Shockingly, West Bank Muslim Palestinians continue to be among the most ideologically moderate (i.e., religiously moderate/liberal) of all the Muslim people in the Middle East. And lets not forget about the Palestinian Christians. How many other Arab "countries" in the region have a national beer? Not sure what any of this has to do with what I posted but I suppose it hasn't occurred to you that the "diaspora" didn't get educated in Gaza and then leave, rather they left to get an education and by and large have not returned. The "diaspora" , which implies a forced eviction, is comprised almost entirely of people that have left of their own volition and had the means to do so. Likewise they are free to return which makes them immigrants. Nothing Israel would do would prevent them from doing so. Hamas is another story. Nice attempt at co-opting the language though. And by all means, let's remember the Palestinian Christians and how much their population has dwindled over the last few years to the point that they, for all intents and purposes, only exist in our imagination. www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-423126/O-Muslim-town-Bethlehem-.htmlNot sure what a national beer has to do with anything. I would suggest they form a Nation and then get a beer. As to Barzeit; I find your implication that the Israelis would somehow prevent an accounting or engineering class from happening in the light of day to be somewhat of a stretch and leads me to wonder what classes were taught at such odd hours. The only reason Fatah is considered more "moderate" is that they have fewer guns than Hamas. Besides, compared to Hamas who isn't more "moderate"? Maybe in your next post you can provide your position on the following: The Hama Massacre Assad, the Falangists and the Tel al Zaatar incident. Why many Palestinians still live in refugee camps in Jordan Syria, Egypt and Saudi Arabia and are denied full citizenship yet those that remained in Israel in 48 are afforded the rights of full citizens of the state have representation in the Knesset. Why the Ottomans didn't form a Palestinian state. Why the Egyptians didn't form a Palestinian state. The 1970 Jordanian Civil War The Hamas charter of 88 |
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Post by hoobs on Jun 2, 2010 10:21:35 GMT -8
No, afan, I kinda think you're a pompous jerk and I don't really have any interest in ever coming back to the political section of the board. You seem to want to think that I am talking out of my Asstec on this. Wrong. I've been to Israel and the Palestinian territories several times on top of working these issues on a regular basis. I've walked the streets in downtown Ramallah, Hebron, & Jerusalem. You?
For those of you who discussed on this board a few months ago why it was losing visitors, or posters from 'opposing' points of view... this is why.
I'll stick to Aztecs sports from now on. Y'all can have this space all to yourselves to fantasize about a 3-some with Ann Coulter & Rush Limbaugh.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 2, 2010 12:38:56 GMT -8
No, afan, I kinda think you're a pompous jerk and I don't really have any interest in ever coming back to the political section of the board. You seem to want to think that I am talking out of my Asstec on this. Wrong. I've been to Israel and the Palestinian territories several times on top of working these issues on a regular basis. I've walked the streets in downtown Ramallah, Hebron, & Jerusalem. You? For those of you who discussed on this board a few months ago why it was losing visitors, or posters from 'opposing' points of view... this is why. I'll stick to Aztecs sports from now on. Y'all can have this space all to yourselves to fantasize about a 3-some with Ann Coulter & Rush Limbaugh. This is how I would respond too if I knew I had no argument and found myself defending a gang of murderous thugs. Ann Coulter is kinda hot but Rush? don't swing that way....not that there's anything wrong with that... If we're going for a threesome, pretty much any of those babes on Fox News will work. Try working on your insults. Ann and Rush? Stale and unoriginal. |
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Post by aztecwin on Jun 2, 2010 14:51:32 GMT -8
No, afan, I kinda think you're a pompous jerk and I don't really have any interest in ever coming back to the political section of the board. You seem to want to think that I am talking out of my Asstec on this. Wrong. I've been to Israel and the Palestinian territories several times on top of working these issues on a regular basis. I've walked the streets in downtown Ramallah, Hebron, & Jerusalem. You? For those of you who discussed on this board a few months ago why it was losing visitors, or posters from 'opposing' points of view... this is why. I'll stick to Aztecs sports from now on. Y'all can have this space all to yourselves to fantasize about a 3-some with Ann Coulter & Rush Limbaugh. Reconsider! You offer pretty good points to ponder and you just can't be too thin skinned in this kind of forum. Now to one of your earlier points, Israel has the right to protect its borders and seems to have offered enough alternatives to allow that flotilla of boats to go through an inspection before the goods enter Gaza to afford Israel a level on confidence that weapons or ammo is not included. It is too bad that Israel was lured into this confrontation, but it seems to have been baited on purpose. The present folks on here mainly on the right are tame compared to some on the left we have had in the past. It is really a rather sedate group. Try looking at some other place that have political exchanges. Real rowdy! I try to avoid that crude language for the most part but am not above an insult or two or a good "trool" to start an exchange. Get in the swing of things and you won't take it so personal and hard. |
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Post by uwaztec on Jun 2, 2010 15:09:23 GMT -8
No, afan, I kinda think you're a pompous jerk and I don't really have any interest in ever coming back to the political section of the board. You seem to want to think that I am talking out of my Asstec on this. Wrong. I've been to Israel and the Palestinian territories several times on top of working these issues on a regular basis. I've walked the streets in downtown Ramallah, Hebron, & Jerusalem. You? For those of you who discussed on this board a few months ago why it was losing visitors, or posters from 'opposing' points of view... this is why. I'll stick to Aztecs sports from now on. Y'all can have this space all to yourselves to fantasize about a 3-some with Ann Coulter & Rush Limbaugh. Reconsider! You offer pretty good points to ponder and you just can't be too thin skinned in this kind of forum. Now to one of your earlier points, Israel has the right to protect its borders and seems to have offered enough alternatives to allow that flotilla of boats to go through an inspection before the goods enter Gaza to afford Israel a level on confidence that weapons or ammo is not included. It is too bad that Israel was lured into this confrontation, but it seems to have been baited on purpose. The present folks on here mainly on the right are tame compared to some on the left we have had in the past. It is really a rather sedate group. Try looking at some other place that have political exchanges. Real rowdy! I try to avoid that crude language for the most part but am not above an insult or two or a good "trool" to start an exchange. Get in the swing of things and you won't take it so personal and hard. Ha ha... rose colored glasses Win. No one in the history of Aztectalk has exceeded the capability to personally insult people like AFAN has  Maybe we should consider it a skill. |
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Post by aztecwin on Jun 2, 2010 15:27:50 GMT -8
Reconsider! You offer pretty good points to ponder and you just can't be too thin skinned in this kind of forum. Now to one of your earlier points, Israel has the right to protect its borders and seems to have offered enough alternatives to allow that flotilla of boats to go through an inspection before the goods enter Gaza to afford Israel a level on confidence that weapons or ammo is not included. It is too bad that Israel was lured into this confrontation, but it seems to have been baited on purpose. The present folks on here mainly on the right are tame compared to some on the left we have had in the past. It is really a rather sedate group. Try looking at some other place that have political exchanges. Real rowdy! I try to avoid that crude language for the most part but am not above an insult or two or a good "trool" to start an exchange. Get in the swing of things and you won't take it so personal and hard. Ha ha... rose colored glasses Win. No one in the history of Aztectalk has exceeded the capability to personally insult people like AFAN has Maybe we should consider it a skill. Maybe, but even he could take a lesson from some of our former members on the left. Do you remember Campy? At any rate, we should all consider trying a kinder gentler method of insult!  |
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Post by ptsdthor on Jun 3, 2010 9:42:58 GMT -8
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Post by davdesid on Jun 3, 2010 15:49:02 GMT -8
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Post by The Great Aztec Joe on Jul 23, 2010 8:30:33 GMT -8
(...knows nothing good can come from dipping toes in political forum area, but cannot help myself...) Maybe it's bad indigestion, but this incident really has set me off. And, well, let's say I see this a little differently than those of you who have already spoken. And, it's late so apologies for what will inevitably be a rambling diatribe. The raid occurred in international waters. That means... whatever knives, clubs, & any small arms the activists had... they were entitled to use against an hostile/illegal boarding by a military force. I might be using a somewhat narrow interpretation of the issue, but at the very least there are HUGE questions about whether or not Israel had any legal justification for the raid. If you assert that it is to support the naval blockade of Gaza... that's fine, and while generally 'endorsed' by the U.S. and other nations, that does not necessarily make the naval blockade legal to begin with. But if one is to accept the legality of the blockade, action taken at that distance has VERY little legal authority to back it up. But the whole thing falls in like with this ultra-hawkish Israeli regime. Israel's continuous denial of a humanitarian disaster in Gaza is repugnant. Israel's own actions in Gaza (& to a *slightly* lesser extent the West Bank as well) are... I'll throw out a vague number... 50% to blame for the radicalization seen there. Yes, then the Hamas & other terrorist scum are to blame for the other 50%. But they would not have a fertile breeding ground for recruitment and indoctrination if it were not for the living conditions, the Israeli policy of 'collective punishment,' the abhorrent actions by an admittedly small but significant number of radical settlers & troops (actions just as vile as the atrocities committed by Hamas), and so on. But all that is just my soapbox. As far as this incident... it is absolutely correct to see that both sides are -- ironically -- working to together so to speak to push this powder keg toward open flame. Netanyahu & his ultra-hawkish brethren are spoiling for a fight, no question about it. And the left-wing activists (I'll treat the leftist ultra-radicals separately) see a chance to exploit the divide being created between the current Israeli regime and conventional opinion worldwide. Israeli PR has NEVER been in this bad of a condition for decades. Or more. International opinion (by that I mean, mostly, Western & Central Europe) has been against Israel since the first Intifada. American public opinion, however, had not strongly wavered until about 5 years or so ago. Since then, the cracks have been emerging and now the shift is becoming *very* noticeable. The very blatant, and let's not kid ourselves, INTENTIONAL snubs against Biden & Obama re. the East Jerusalem settlement issue have pissed off our current administration and really taken aback some of the moderately strong "conventional" Israel-supporters here (by "here" I mean in Congress, the D.C. 'beltway' policy world, and outside the D.C. community as well). Soooooo, where I'm going with this is to affirm the notion that the Middle East 'crisis' is unlikely to dissipate or be moderated anytime soon. In my mind, the only question is what in form does the inevitable violent confrontation take place? However, with apologies, I'm not going to publicly speculate about that... I have spoken to Netanyahu on numerous occasions. He is not spoiling for a fight. I realize from your post that you know nothing about maritime law. Israel had full legal right to board that ship at sea. The open ocean is international and boardings can and do occur at sea all of the time. Remember the stated target of the vessel is a declared War Zone by Hamas. As a War Zone, the involved parties can impose embargoes on any ships headed for that area. Ironically, the good could be dropped off in Egypt and delivered to Gaza with no problem. Egypt has a border with Gaza and tranships goods all of the time. Even further Ironic is the fact that 97 percent of the Gazans who are locked in that area by Egypt are descended from Egyptian laborers who went to Israel after the Jewish immigration from the neighboring Islamic countries in the late 1880's (over 125 years ago.) Those returning Jews bought swamp land and desert land in a territory of Syria that was quite barren of population. The Jews drained the swamps and irrigated the desert land they had bought for a pittance from the low IQ Syrian overlords, and started up some very productive farms on soil the Arabs thought was useless. As teh farms progressed and became more and more numerous, Egyptian illegal immigrants came to work on the Jewish farms. (Think in terms of Mexicans illegally coming to California to work on the farms.) The Egyptians were crossing into Syrian held land to work to support their families back in Egypt. In 1948 When the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem told all of the migrant laborers in what was to be Israel "to flee because the mighty and modern Arab armies were going to kill all of the Jews, rape their women and throw the bodies of the Jewish children into the sea, the Egyptian Arab laborers started to flee back to Egypt, only to be held in check by the Egyptian Army. Their instructions were to not let any Egyptian laborers back into Egypt. Egypt wanted to make the United Nations responsible for the support of the laborers who were held in place in Gaza by the Egyptian army. And thus it has been to this day. Sadly, more Jews left Egypt to go to Israel than there were Arabs who wanted to return to Egypt. those Arabs could have been given the Jewish houses that were vacated in Egypt, but the corrupt Egyptian king wanted to profit from the sale of the Jewish houses that he confiscated as tehy left to go to Israel and freedom from Islamic persecution. |
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Post by The Great Aztec Joe on Jul 23, 2010 8:35:30 GMT -8
Wow, really... the 'poor small little beseiged Israel' angle? I thought this was a discussion forum, not a talking-points dissemination board. None of this changes my assessment that Israel is acting like a bunch of grade-A morons who are casting their country down a very deep, dark hole. I'm obviously not going to have an impact on your opinion, so I won't try. You have never studied the history of the region, have you? |
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Post by The Great Aztec Joe on Jul 23, 2010 8:40:15 GMT -8
Turkey has been VERY restrained thus far, and deserve much respect for that. Turkey is the cause of all the trouble, trying to run embargoes when they know damn well that the goods in the cargo ship could have been dropped off in Egypt and trucked into Gaza. The Egyptians are preventing the transhipment of munitions. Turkey wants to get those munitions into Gaza and is thus pushing the region closer and closer to war. When I was a conservative, I predicted years ago that the AntiChrist will be the Turkish President. He is now in power. Being that I am a Born Again Liberal, I do not subscribe to the the AntiChrist thing for the time being, but that clown is sure trying to make it look like he is gaining power for his Islamic World leadership role. |
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Maybe we should consider it a skill.
