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Post by johneaztec on Jun 4, 2023 19:07:10 GMT -8
I don't know about Weathers being a bona fide starter now. Just when you think he may have made some strides, he pitches he's like this. Sheesh. And, he wasn't that great the outing before this game. Too inconsistent. I hope he can find some consistency before it's too late for him as a starter. I don't do recency bias, as you know. He's 23. We are nowhere near "too late." I'm just saying he's not a bona fide starter NOW, as you stated. He's simply too up and down. Yes, he's young and I also said, BEFORE it's too late. He's got to produce at some point here. I was really high on him when he first got up here, but not any more. I hope he proves me wrong, and comes around in the near future.
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Post by aztecryan on Jun 4, 2023 19:23:33 GMT -8
I don't do recency bias, as you know. He's 23. We are nowhere near "too late." I'm just saying he's not a bona fide starter NOW, as you stated. He's simply too up and down. Yes, he's young and I also said, BEFORE it's too late. He's got to produce at some point here. I was really high on him when he first got up here, but not any more. I hope he proves me wrong, and comes around in the near future. He's improved dramatically from where he was even a season ago. Disagree on the premise. It's all relative to league context.
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Post by johneaztec on Jun 4, 2023 22:47:39 GMT -8
I'm just saying he's not a bona fide starter NOW, as you stated. He's simply too up and down. Yes, he's young and I also said, BEFORE it's too late. He's got to produce at some point here. I was really high on him when he first got up here, but not any more. I hope he proves me wrong, and comes around in the near future. He's improved dramatically from where he was even a season ago. Disagree on the premise. It's all relative to league context. The premise revolves around his inconsistency for quite some time now. He's shown flashes of good things, but not on a consistent basis. Like I said, I was very high on him when he first came up, and then he hit a wall. You say that he's a bona fide starter right now, and I don't see that at all. Hopefully, he'll become one in the near future. I hope he gets more chances and turns it around. I'm a fan.
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Post by aztecryan on Jun 4, 2023 23:07:31 GMT -8
He's improved dramatically from where he was even a season ago. Disagree on the premise. It's all relative to league context. The premise revolves around his inconsistency for quite some time now. He's shown flashes of good things, but not on a consistent basis. Like I said, I was very high on him when he first came up, and then he hit a wall. You say that he's a bona fide starter right now, and I don't see that at all. Hopefully, he'll become one in the near future. I hope he gets more chances and turns it around. I'm a fan. He came into today with an ERA of 4.28. League average ERA is 4.27. That makes him a bonafide starter. He's 23. Pitching development isn't linear, nor is growth from changes made. Overhauled his fastball, increased his changeup and slider usage, tweaked the release on the slider to give it more of a sweeper look. There's going to be growing pains, just like there is with every single young starter in baseball. Development is never a perfect process. He's going to be susceptible to outings like this from time to time, but compared to where he was pre-Niebla, it's night and day.
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Post by johneaztec on Jun 4, 2023 23:43:59 GMT -8
The premise revolves around his inconsistency for quite some time now. He's shown flashes of good things, but not on a consistent basis. Like I said, I was very high on him when he first came up, and then he hit a wall. You say that he's a bona fide starter right now, and I don't see that at all. Hopefully, he'll become one in the near future. I hope he gets more chances and turns it around. I'm a fan. He came into today with an ERA of 4.28. League average ERA is 4.27. That makes him a bonafide starter. He's 23. Pitching development isn't linear, nor is growth from changes made. Overhauled his fastball, increased his changeup and slider usage, tweaked the release on the slider to give it more of a sweeper look. There's going to be growing pains, just like there is with every single young starter in baseball. Development is never a perfect process. He's going to be susceptible to outings like this from time to time, but compared to where he was pre-Niebla, it's night and day. He was not good his last two outings, and especially horrible yesterday. Actually, he has been very good his last three outings. He has not been consistently good in awhile. He's has had some success this year, but it seems like it's back to the drawing board AGAIN with him. His ERA is no longer in the 4's. It's 5.09. You can't leave out today's game, like you did, when evaluating him as a bona fide starter. I get it that he's young, and I don't want them to give up on him and I'm sure they obviously won't, yet. You say he's night and day from where he was in the past, but that's not hard to do. He was terrible for quite a while. He's given up 21 hits in 11.2 innings in his last three outings. Not good. I also get it that inconsistency is part of what can happen with younger pitchers, but it just seems as though he's had a lot of opportunities to show what he can do, and the best he's done is only show inconsistent glimpses of it. I really am a big fan of his, but I'm worried he just might not have it as a starter. Hopefully, he can string a few good games in a row here in the near future. He could obviously care less to prove me wrong, but prove me wrong anyway Ryan Weathers!!! I'm pulling for you.
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Post by sdsuball on Jun 4, 2023 23:54:10 GMT -8
He came into today with an ERA of 4.28. League average ERA is 4.27. That makes him a bonafide starter. He's 23. Pitching development isn't linear, nor is growth from changes made. Overhauled his fastball, increased his changeup and slider usage, tweaked the release on the slider to give it more of a sweeper look. There's going to be growing pains, just like there is with every single young starter in baseball. Development is never a perfect process. He's going to be susceptible to outings like this from time to time, but compared to where he was pre-Niebla, it's night and day. May He was not good his last two outings, and especially horrible yesterday. Actually, he has been very good his last three outings. He has not been consistently good in awhile. He's has had some success this year, but it seems like it's back to the drawing board AGAIN with him. His ERA is no longer in the 4's. It's 5.09. You can't leave out today's game, like you did, when evaluating him as a bona fide starter. I get it that he's young, and I don't want them to give up on him and I'm sure they obviously won't, yet. You say he's night and day from where he was in the past, but that's not hard to do. He was terrible for quite a while. I also get it that inconsistency is part of what can happen with younger pitchers, but it just seems as though he's had a lot of opportunities to show what he can do, and the best he's done is only show inconsistent glimpses of it. I really am a big fan of his, but I'm worried he just might not have it as a starter. Hopefully, he can string a few good games in a row here in the near future. He could obviously care less to prove me wrong, but prove me wrong anyway Ryan Weathers!!! I'm pulling for you. He may not be anything more then a back of the rotation guy. Or he may continue to improve. He's young. Weathers is not the problem - the problem is our inconsistent hitting.
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Post by johneaztec on Jun 4, 2023 23:57:11 GMT -8
He was not good his last two outings, and especially horrible yesterday. Actually, he has been very good his last three outings. He has not been consistently good in awhile. He's has had some success this year, but it seems like it's back to the drawing board AGAIN with him. His ERA is no longer in the 4's. It's 5.09. You can't leave out today's game, like you did, when evaluating him as a bona fide starter. I get it that he's young, and I don't want them to give up on him and I'm sure they obviously won't, yet. You say he's night and day from where he was in the past, but that's not hard to do. He was terrible for quite a while. I also get it that inconsistency is part of what can happen with younger pitchers, but it just seems as though he's had a lot of opportunities to show what he can do, and the best he's done is only show inconsistent glimpses of it. I really am a big fan of his, but I'm worried he just might not have it as a starter. Hopefully, he can string a few good games in a row here in the near future. He could obviously care less to prove me wrong, but prove me wrong anyway Ryan Weathers!!! I'm pulling for you. He may not be anything more then a back of the rotation guy. Or he may continue to improve. He's young. Weathers is not the problem - the problem is our inconsistent hitting. Oh, for sure hitting is the big problem. I'm just saying that I don't think he's a bona fide starter right now. He may end up being one, and like I said, I wouldn't give up on him. I'm s certain they won't yet, but he's got to get more consistent with his outings. He's had a lot of chances. We'll see.
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Post by aztecryan on Jun 5, 2023 7:25:02 GMT -8
He came into today with an ERA of 4.28. League average ERA is 4.27. That makes him a bonafide starter. He's 23. Pitching development isn't linear, nor is growth from changes made. Overhauled his fastball, increased his changeup and slider usage, tweaked the release on the slider to give it more of a sweeper look. There's going to be growing pains, just like there is with every single young starter in baseball. Development is never a perfect process. He's going to be susceptible to outings like this from time to time, but compared to where he was pre-Niebla, it's night and day. He was not good his last two outings, and especially horrible yesterday. Actually, he has been very good his last three outings. He has not been consistently good in awhile. He's has had some success this year, but it seems like it's back to the drawing board AGAIN with him. His ERA is no longer in the 4's. It's 5.09. You can't leave out today's game, like you did, when evaluating him as a bona fide starter. I get it that he's young, and I don't want them to give up on him and I'm sure they obviously won't, yet. You say he's night and day from where he was in the past, but that's not hard to do. He was terrible for quite a while. He's given up 21 hits in 11.2 innings in his last three outings. Not good. I also get it that inconsistency is part of what can happen with younger pitchers, but it just seems as though he's had a lot of opportunities to show what he can do, and the best he's done is only show inconsistent glimpses of it. I really am a big fan of his, but I'm worried he just might not have it as a starter. Hopefully, he can string a few good games in a row here in the near future. He could obviously care less to prove me wrong, but prove me wrong anyway Ryan Weathers!!! I'm pulling for you. I can, because one outing shouldn't be used to evaluate anything, especially if you're not providing any context. If that was the case, we could just evaluate Yu Darvish based off his outing in New York and not even care about what he did two days ago. This idea of "consistency" in a developing pitcher just isn't real.
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Post by johneaztec on Jun 5, 2023 7:35:50 GMT -8
He was not good his last two outings, and especially horrible yesterday. Actually, he has been very good his last three outings. He has not been consistently good in awhile. He's has had some success this year, but it seems like it's back to the drawing board AGAIN with him. His ERA is no longer in the 4's. It's 5.09. You can't leave out today's game, like you did, when evaluating him as a bona fide starter. I get it that he's young, and I don't want them to give up on him and I'm sure they obviously won't, yet. You say he's night and day from where he was in the past, but that's not hard to do. He was terrible for quite a while. He's given up 21 hits in 11.2 innings in his last three outings. Not good. I also get it that inconsistency is part of what can happen with younger pitchers, but it just seems as though he's had a lot of opportunities to show what he can do, and the best he's done is only show inconsistent glimpses of it. I really am a big fan of his, but I'm worried he just might not have it as a starter. Hopefully, he can string a few good games in a row here in the near future. He could obviously care less to prove me wrong, but prove me wrong anyway Ryan Weathers!!! I'm pulling for you. I can, because one outing shouldn't be used to evaluate anything, especially if you're not providing any context. Be accurate or don't bother. You're the one not being accurate and cherry picking stats. I'm not using one outing. He hasn't been good his, at least, last three games, not just this last one. You can try and leave out yesterday's game to support his stats a little better, but that don't fly. 21 hits in 11 innings with 6 walks and continually falling behind hitters? Yes, and that's not good, at all. His last game was just a part of how he's shown his inconsistency. There's some context for you. You say he's made changes and now he's a bona fide starter. Those changes haven't transfered, yet, into much production. I, and many others are still waiting. Hopefully, he comes through sooner, rather than later.
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Post by aztecryan on Jun 5, 2023 8:01:40 GMT -8
I can, because one outing shouldn't be used to evaluate anything, especially if you're not providing any context. Be accurate or don't bother. You're the one not being accurate and cherry picking stats. I'm not using one outing. He hasn't been good his, at least, last three games, not just this last one. You can try and leave out yesterday's game to support his stats a little better, but that don't fly. 21 hits in 11 innings with 6 walks and continually falling behind hitters? Yes, and that's not good, at all. His last game was just a part of how he's shown his inconsistency. There's some context for you. You say he's made changes and now he's a bona fide starter. Those changes haven't transfered, yet, into much production. I, and many others are still waiting. Hopefully, he comes through sooner, rather than later. What does "not good" mean? Quantify something. You're telling me the Washington start wasn't good enough? Come on. Your expectations are the problem. Look around the league and find me a fifth starter at that age who is posting "consistent" numbers. Stop talking in cliches.
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Post by johneaztec on Jun 5, 2023 9:20:37 GMT -8
You're the one not being accurate and cherry picking stats. I'm not using one outing. He hasn't been good his, at least, last three games, not just this last one. You can try and leave out yesterday's game to support his stats a little better, but that don't fly. 21 hits in 11 innings with 6 walks and continually falling behind hitters? Yes, and that's not good, at all. His last game was just a part of how he's shown his inconsistency. There's some context for you. You say he's made changes and now he's a bona fide starter. Those changes haven't transfered, yet, into much production. I, and many others are still waiting. Hopefully, he comes through sooner, rather than later. What does "not good" mean? Quantify something. You're telling me the Washington start wasn't good enough? Come on. Your expectations are the problem. Look around the league and find me a fifth starter at that age who is posting "consistent" numbers. Stop talking in cliches. Cliches? I have given you some stats. Here's some more. As a matter of fact, his last 4 starts have not been good. Against Washington he gave up 5 runs, 4:earned in 6 innings. Not good in many peoples book. I can stretch it to say it was ok, but not good. Against LA he gave up 4 earned runs and 4 walks in 5 innings. If you think that's good then you and I, and several others, have a wide range of disparity there. If you want to say his start against Washington is 5th starter material, then ok. It still does not make him a "Bona Fide" starter. When you say bona fide, to me that's saying a good one. It makes him simply a bad starting pitcher lately, on a bad hitting team at the moment.
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Post by aztecryan on Jun 5, 2023 9:29:42 GMT -8
What does "not good" mean? Quantify something. You're telling me the Washington start wasn't good enough? Come on. Your expectations are the problem. Look around the league and find me a fifth starter at that age who is posting "consistent" numbers. Stop talking in cliches. Cliches? I have given you some stats. Here's some more. As a matter of fact, his last 4 starts have not been good. Against Washington he gave up 5 runs, 4:earned in 6 innings. Not good in many peoples book. I can stretch it to say it was ok, but not good. Against LA he gave up 4 earned runs and 4 walks in 5 innings. If you think that's good then you and I, and several others, have a wide range of disparity there. If you want to say his start against Washington is 5th starter material, then ok. It still does not make him a "Bona Fide" starter. When you say bona fide, to me that's saying a good one. It makes him simply a bad starting pitcher lately, on a bad hitting team at the moment. Yes, cliches. The walks are a problem, command is still a work in progress, as it is with almost every starter his age. The word bonafide means he's able to start. Nothing more, nothing less. Look at that Washington start a bit deeper and I think you'll discover a theme.
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Post by johneaztec on Jun 5, 2023 10:22:55 GMT -8
Cliches? I have given you some stats. Here's some more. As a matter of fact, his last 4 starts have not been good. Against Washington he gave up 5 runs, 4:earned in 6 innings. Not good in many peoples book. I can stretch it to say it was ok, but not good. Against LA he gave up 4 earned runs and 4 walks in 5 innings. If you think that's good then you and I, and several others, have a wide range of disparity there. If you want to say his start against Washington is 5th starter material, then ok. It still does not make him a "Bona Fide" starter. When you say bona fide, to me that's saying a good one. It makes him simply a bad starting pitcher lately, on a bad hitting team at the moment. Yes, cliches. The walks are a problem, command is still a work in progress, as it is with almost every starter his age. The word bonafide means he's able to start. Nothing more, nothing less. Look at that Washington start a bit deeper and I think you'll discover a theme. Sorry, I had to laugh. Bona fide means someone is able to start? I guess everybody's bona fide then. I think I know what you're trying to say, but no. We disagree on what bona fide means, so I'll leave it at that.
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Post by aztecryan on Jun 5, 2023 11:05:11 GMT -8
Yes, cliches. The walks are a problem, command is still a work in progress, as it is with almost every starter his age. The word bonafide means he's able to start. Nothing more, nothing less. Look at that Washington start a bit deeper and I think you'll discover a theme. Sorry, I had to laugh. Bona fide means someone is able to start? I guess everybody's bona fide then. I think I know what you're trying to say, but no. We disagree on what bona fide means, so I'll leave it at that. I'll help you out: He was a bullpen arm in 2020 when he came up and a multi-inning piece after that because he lacked fastball shape and a reliable secondary pitch (Look at the 2021 pitch splits) He can clearly now, with added endurance and better conditioning, start and produce. Held Atlanta to two runs over six innings earlier this year. He wasn't good yesterday in the second inning. It happens. But if you're going to argue he's not a starter, you should check out the lower end of qualified starters.
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Post by johneaztec on Jun 5, 2023 11:17:05 GMT -8
Sorry, I had to laugh. Bona fide means someone is able to start? I guess everybody's bona fide then. I think I know what you're trying to say, but no. We disagree on what bona fide means, so I'll leave it at that. I'll help you out: He was a bullpen arm in 2020 when he came up and a multi-inning piece after that because he lacked fastball shape and a reliable secondary pitch (Look at the 2021 pitch splits) He can clearly now, with added endurance and better conditioning, start and produce. Held Atlanta to two runs over six innings earlier this year. He wasn't good yesterday in the second inning. It happens. But if you're going to argue he's not a starter, you should check out the lower end of qualified starters. I don't need any of your help, but thanks anyway. You keep bringing up yesterday's game as if that's the only game/inning he hasn't done well in. Sure, keep throwing him out there as a fifth starter, but that doesn't make him "bonafide." Bad innings/games happen to every pitcher, but some have it happen to them more often than not, as in Weathers case, as of now. What I don't agree with is when you say he's a bona fide starter, who has made changes and they're working. They certainly aren't on a consistent basis, as evidenced by you having to go back to the Atlanta game to make a case for him. I agree that he has it in him, but he hasn't put it together yet. I hope he does, because I think he's better than what he's showing.
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Post by aztecryan on Jun 5, 2023 11:25:08 GMT -8
I'll help you out: He was a bullpen arm in 2020 when he came up and a multi-inning piece after that because he lacked fastball shape and a reliable secondary pitch (Look at the 2021 pitch splits) He can clearly now, with added endurance and better conditioning, start and produce. Held Atlanta to two runs over six innings earlier this year. He wasn't good yesterday in the second inning. It happens. But if you're going to argue he's not a starter, you should check out the lower end of qualified starters. I don't need any of your help, but thanks anyway. You keep bringing up yesterday's game as if that's the only game/inning he hasn't done well in. Sure, keep throwing him out there as a fifth starter, but that doesn't make him "bonafide." Bad innings/games happen to every pitcher, but some have it happen to them more often than not, as in Weathers case, as of now. What I don't agree with is when you say he's a bona fide starter, who has made changes and they're working. They certainly aren't on a consistent basis, as evidenced by you having to go back to the Atlanta game to make a case for him. I agree that he has it in him, but he hasn't put it together yet. I hope he does, because I think he's better than what he's showing. You apparently do because you're wrong and obsessing over what "bonafide" means instead of actually looking at (useful) numbers. You can keep harping about "consistency" though. I don't have to go back to the Atlanta start, the Washington start was fine enough. www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=all&stats=pit&lg=all&qual=20&type=8&season=2023&month=0&season1=2023&ind=0&team=0&rost=0&age=0&filter=&players=0&startdate=2023-01-01&enddate=2023-12-31&sort=19,d&page=1_30
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Post by johneaztec on Jun 5, 2023 11:50:18 GMT -8
I don't need any of your help, but thanks anyway. You keep bringing up yesterday's game as if that's the only game/inning he hasn't done well in. Sure, keep throwing him out there as a fifth starter, but that doesn't make him "bonafide." Bad innings/games happen to every pitcher, but some have it happen to them more often than not, as in Weathers case, as of now. What I don't agree with is when you say he's a bona fide starter, who has made changes and they're working. They certainly aren't on a consistent basis, as evidenced by you having to go back to the Atlanta game to make a case for him. I agree that he has it in him, but he hasn't put it together yet. I hope he does, because I think he's better than what he's showing. You apparently do because you're wrong and obsessing over what "bonafide" means instead of actually looking at (useful) numbers. You can keep harping about "consistency" though. I don't have to go back to the Atlanta start, the Washington start was fine enough. www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=all&stats=pit&lg=all&qual=20&type=8&season=2023&month=0&season1=2023&ind=0&team=0&rost=0&age=0&filter=&players=0&startdate=2023-01-01&enddate=2023-12-31&sort=19,d&page=1_30 Again, you're wrong when you say bonafide. He's not legit, yet. He's an inconsistent, and yes I'll keep harping on consistency, because it's important, pitcher who's trying to find his way. He walks too many. He's consistently behind in the count, along with batters barreling him way too often. Those factors are not a recipe for success, or calling someone a bonafide pitcher. His changes haven't made a difference, yet. I think we can agree that he's a 5th starter that we can throw out there, and hope for the best at this point. He is young, and like I said I'm hoping he can turn it around. If you choose to use the term bonafide towards someone who pitches very inconsistently, with all of the negatives I mentioned above, then you have a VERY low bar to the meaning.
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Post by aztecryan on Jun 5, 2023 11:59:02 GMT -8
Again, you're wrong when you say bonafide. He's not legit, yet. He's an inconsistent, and yes I'll keep harping on consistency, because it's important, pitcher who's trying to find his way. He walks too many. He's consistently behind in the count, along with batters barreling him way too often. Those factors are not a recipe for success, or calling someone a bonafide pitcher. His changes haven't made a difference, yet. I think we can agree that he's a 5th starter that we can throw out there, and hope for the best at this point. He is young, and like I said I'm hoping he can turn it around. If you choose to use the term bonafide towards someone who pitches very inconsistently, with all of the negatives I mentioned above, then you have a VERY low bar to the meaning. You can focus on English, I'll focus on baseball. I know you think you're providing useful arguments, but you aren't. You're doing mental gymnastics and focusing on semantics. I'll pass on the brick wall exercises.
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Post by johneaztec on Jun 5, 2023 12:26:39 GMT -8
Again, you're wrong when you say bonafide. He's not legit, yet. He's an inconsistent, and yes I'll keep harping on consistency, because it's important, pitcher who's trying to find his way. He walks too many. He's consistently behind in the count, along with batters barreling him way too often. Those factors are not a recipe for success, or calling someone a bonafide pitcher. His changes haven't made a difference, yet. I think we can agree that he's a 5th starter that we can throw out there, and hope for the best at this point. He is young, and like I said I'm hoping he can turn it around. If you choose to use the term bonafide towards someone who pitches very inconsistently, with all of the negatives I mentioned above, then you have a VERY low bar to the meaning. You can focus on English, I'll focus on baseball. I know you think you're providing useful arguments, but you aren't. You're doing mental gymnastics and focusing on semantics. I'll pass on the brick wall exercises. You can use both you're wording and baseball. In both respects you're off base. He's not a bonafide/good starting pitcher. How would you classify him as pitcher, without using the "bonafide" as a term? Is he good in your eyes right now?
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Post by aztecryan on Jun 5, 2023 13:29:24 GMT -8
You can focus on English, I'll focus on baseball. I know you think you're providing useful arguments, but you aren't. You're doing mental gymnastics and focusing on semantics. I'll pass on the brick wall exercises. You can use both you're wording and baseball. In both respects you're off base. He's not a bonafide/good starting pitcher. How would you classify him as pitcher, without using the "bonafide" as a term? Is he good in your eyes right now? For the last time, bonafide in this sense means he's a big league starting pitcher. I'm not saying he's Yu Darvish, I'm saying he's a capable big league starter, which is massive if you knew what I know about his development and how much of a challenge it's been. I don't have gross expectations of a fifth starter who is 23.
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