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Post by sdsuball on Feb 27, 2022 0:26:49 GMT -8
Well, the separatist parts of Ukraine should gain international recognition and sovereignty. The civil war has been going on for eight years now. The DNR and LNR should be recognized as independent countries. That the US is not willing to do so just shows that US geopolitical goals (to weaken Russia, and strengthen democracy/republics) is what matters most to the US. A bigger (more open) question is, what is the best long term diplomatic solution? Yanukovych's government was overthrown in 2014, his government was pro Russia. The DNR and LNR in the Donbass region similarly are pro Russia as well. The country is split in the primary language spoken (Russian vs Ukrainian) largely along lines similar to the regions of Ukraine where Yanukovych won in the 2010 elections. It might make the most sense to split Ukraine in half, and allow the Russian speaking/pro-Yanukovych regions of the country to have independence from the rest of Ukraine. So while it's easy to be quick to condemn Russia, Crimea and the Dombass region are by and large Russian speaking regions of Ukraine who like Putin. Crazy stuff … splitting countries by languages. I am sure California will soon belong to Mexico then. Or perhaps even China … It's very relevant when you consider that a lot of the Russians in Ukraine are first or second generation citizens that moved there during the cold war, when Ukraine was part of Russia (the Soviet Union).Imagine if we decided to conquer Mexico, Mexico is now a part of the "US Empire" or whatever, and you decide to move to Rosarito (because the houses are super affordable, cheap margaritas and life on the beach, etc.), and then 10 years later, the US empire collapses and Mexico is no longer part of the US. Worse, now you're a minority in a country where the leadership doesn't like the US or former US citizens.
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Post by germanaztec on Feb 27, 2022 6:34:16 GMT -8
Crazy stuff … splitting countries by languages. I am sure California will soon belong to Mexico then. Or perhaps even China … It's very relevant when you consider that a lot of the Russians in Ukraine are first or second generation citizens that moved there during the cold war, when Ukraine was part of Russia (the Soviet Union).Imagine if we decided to conquer Mexico, Mexico is now a part of the "US Empire" or whatever, and you decide to move to Rosarito (because the houses are super affordable, cheap margaritas and life on the beach, etc.), and then 10 years later, the US empire collapses and Mexico is no longer part of the US. Worse, now you're a minority in a country where the leadership doesn't like the US or former US citizens. So what’s your point? Should the US conquer Mexico now so that you can buy a cheap house?
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Post by sdsuball on Feb 28, 2022 3:41:38 GMT -8
It's very relevant when you consider that a lot of the Russians in Ukraine are first or second generation citizens that moved there during the cold war, when Ukraine was part of Russia (the Soviet Union).Imagine if we decided to conquer Mexico, Mexico is now a part of the "US Empire" or whatever, and you decide to move to Rosarito (because the houses are super affordable, cheap margaritas and life on the beach, etc.), and then 10 years later, the US empire collapses and Mexico is no longer part of the US. Worse, now you're a minority in a country where the leadership doesn't like the US or former US citizens. So what’s your point? Should the US conquer Mexico now so that you can buy a cheap house? My point is that shifting national borders is why the situation in Ukraine is so contentious, it's a big part of the reason why there is a civil war in the country, its a big part of the reason why Russia views the war very differently from the western world. A lot of people in the US are overreacting like "OMG it's the start of WWIII" or saying stupid $#!+ like "The US needs to attack Russia", when really the conflict is very regional in origin. Something similar happened with the US and Mexico if I recall involving Texas - except in that situation, Americans were illegibly settling in Texas before it was part of the US, then we decided to fight a war to make Texas a part of the US. Conversely, Russians legally moved to Ukraine during the Cold War and stayed there after the fall of the USSR and democratically elected a pro-Russian president of Ukraine, who's government was illegally overthrown for a government that is anti-Russian. This started the beginning of a civil war, causing the Dombass region to be held by pro-Russian interests (also a region of Ukraine with a high number of Russian people). Oh and btw, do you think that the US was idly sitting by while all of this was going on? The US historically has invested considerable resources into overthrowing governments that are our advisories for governments that match our preferences. Everyone is throwing a ton of shade at Russia in all of this, and they are saying that Russia is this aggressor trying to start WWIII. But what people don't realize is that what Russia is doing right now (interfering in an eight year civil war, where western governments don't recognize the pro-Russian resistance governments as independent entities), is not nearly as bad as what the US did in the Mexican-American war. No, instead America funneled money and aid to the anti-Russian Ukranian government, weapons, etc; tried to get Ukraine to join NATO (a big part of the reason why Putin invaded - if NATO stands for North Atlantic Treaty Organization why the f x x x is it extending all the way into eastern Europe and Russia's doorstep). It just gets really annoying hearing the one-sided coverage of the war. Obviously everyone is sad that there is a war and people are dying, injured, displaced and property damaged. But it would really be nice if people could be a little bit more educated about the conflict. Putin is the aggressor but America's (and NATO's) idiotic strategies towards Ukraine and the civil war are also to blame.
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Post by azson on Feb 28, 2022 14:41:00 GMT -8
I highly recommend the NetFlix doc Winter on Fire which documents the '13/14 winter demonstrations against the then corrupt Ukraine government. Gives good insight and background into what's going on now.
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Post by azson on Feb 28, 2022 14:45:37 GMT -8
So what’s your point? Should the US conquer Mexico now so that you can buy a cheap house? My point is that shifting national borders is why the situation in Ukraine is so contentious, it's a big part of the reason why there is a civil war in the country, its a big part of the reason why Russia views the war very differently from the western world. A lot of people in the US are overreacting like "OMG it's the start of WWIII" or saying stupid $#!+ like "The US needs to attack Russia", when really the conflict is very regional in origin. Something similar happened with the US and Mexico if I recall involving Texas - except in that situation, Americans were illegibly settling in Texas before it was part of the US, then we decided to fight a war to make Texas a part of the US. Conversely, Russians legally moved to Ukraine during the Cold War and stayed there after the fall of the USSR and democratically elected a pro-Russian president of Ukraine, who's government was illegally overthrown for a government that is anti-Russian. This started the beginning of a civil war, causing the Dombass region to be held by pro-Russian interests (also a region of Ukraine with a high number of Russian people). Oh and btw, do you think that the US was idly sitting by while all of this was going on? The US historically has invested considerable resources into overthrowing governments that are our advisories for governments that match our preferences. Everyone is throwing a ton of shade at Russia in all of this, and they are saying that Russia is this aggressor trying to start WWIII. But what people don't realize is that what Russia is doing right now (interfering in an eight year civil war, where western governments don't recognize the pro-Russian resistance governments as independent entities), is not nearly as bad as what the US did in the Mexican-American war. No, instead America funneled money and aid to the anti-Russian Ukranian government, weapons, etc; tried to get Ukraine to join NATO (a big part of the reason why Putin invaded - if NATO stands for North Atlantic Treaty Organization why the f x x x is it extending all the way into eastern Europe and Russia's doorstep). It just gets really annoying hearing the one-sided coverage of the war. Obviously everyone is sad that there is a war and people are dying, injured, displaced and property damaged. But it would really be nice if people could be a little bit more educated about the conflict. Putin is the aggressor but America's (and NATO's) idiotic strategies towards Ukraine and the civil war are also to blame. If you're referring to Yanukovich, you obviously don't know the history and/or got erroneous info. He was corrupt as hell and slunk out of the country in the dead of night rather than face his country's justified protests/calls for resignation.
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Post by Fishn'Aztec on Feb 28, 2022 15:11:24 GMT -8
It's very relevant when you consider that a lot of the Russians in Ukraine are first or second generation citizens that moved there during the cold war, when Ukraine was part of Russia (the Soviet Union).Imagine if we decided to conquer Mexico, Mexico is now a part of the "US Empire" or whatever, and you decide to move to Rosarito (because the houses are super affordable, cheap margaritas and life on the beach, etc.), and then 10 years later, the US empire collapses and Mexico is no longer part of the US. Worse, now you're a minority in a country where the leadership doesn't like the US or former US citizens. So what’s your point? Should the US conquer Mexico now so that you can buy a cheap house? Can you imagine the flood of gringos rushing into the Baja if the US of A annexed that disconnected finger of old Mexico.
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Post by sdsuball on Mar 2, 2022 20:29:38 GMT -8
My point is that shifting national borders is why the situation in Ukraine is so contentious, it's a big part of the reason why there is a civil war in the country, its a big part of the reason why Russia views the war very differently from the western world. A lot of people in the US are overreacting like "OMG it's the start of WWIII" or saying stupid $#!+ like "The US needs to attack Russia", when really the conflict is very regional in origin. Something similar happened with the US and Mexico if I recall involving Texas - except in that situation, Americans were illegibly settling in Texas before it was part of the US, then we decided to fight a war to make Texas a part of the US. Conversely, Russians legally moved to Ukraine during the Cold War and stayed there after the fall of the USSR and democratically elected a pro-Russian president of Ukraine, who's government was illegally overthrown for a government that is anti-Russian. This started the beginning of a civil war, causing the Dombass region to be held by pro-Russian interests (also a region of Ukraine with a high number of Russian people). Oh and btw, do you think that the US was idly sitting by while all of this was going on? The US historically has invested considerable resources into overthrowing governments that are our advisories for governments that match our preferences. Everyone is throwing a ton of shade at Russia in all of this, and they are saying that Russia is this aggressor trying to start WWIII. But what people don't realize is that what Russia is doing right now (interfering in an eight year civil war, where western governments don't recognize the pro-Russian resistance governments as independent entities), is not nearly as bad as what the US did in the Mexican-American war. No, instead America funneled money and aid to the anti-Russian Ukranian government, weapons, etc; tried to get Ukraine to join NATO (a big part of the reason why Putin invaded - if NATO stands for North Atlantic Treaty Organization why the f x x x is it extending all the way into eastern Europe and Russia's doorstep). It just gets really annoying hearing the one-sided coverage of the war. Obviously everyone is sad that there is a war and people are dying, injured, displaced and property damaged. But it would really be nice if people could be a little bit more educated about the conflict. Putin is the aggressor but America's (and NATO's) idiotic strategies towards Ukraine and the civil war are also to blame. If you're referring to Yanukovich, you obviously don't know the history and/or got erroneous info. He was corrupt as hell and slunk out of the country in the dead of night rather than face his country's justified protests/calls for resignation. Fair point, I'll check out the documentary.
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Post by aztecmusician on Mar 4, 2022 3:02:29 GMT -8
A few more points. The Ukrainians are going to fight very fiercely for their country. They still remember what the Soviets did to them in the 1930’s, when Stalin took away their food and starved 20 million Ukrainians to death. They are also going to remember that President Bill Clinton compelled them to give up their nukes in the 1990’s in exchange FOR THE PROTECTION OF THE UNITED STATES.
I hope Biden’s half measures work and quickly. Ukraine is the breadbasket of the region and offers Russia a defensive buffer state vs the West, Putin is going to use all available military resources to end the conflict as a military victory for Russia. Unfortunately the next step may be to establish a no fly zone. Putin has been in power for over two decades, it’s no coincidence that now that Trump is gone he has resumed his conquests in Crimea and the Ukraine. Obama basically did nothing. Biden is his guy and he thinks he can act and not face a military response from Uncle Sam.
I pray Obama didn’t dismantle our country’s ballistic defenses like he reportedly did with HAARP. That was very shortsighted.
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Post by aztecryan on Mar 4, 2022 11:40:12 GMT -8
A few more points. The Ukrainians are going to fight very fiercely for their country. They still remember what the Soviets did to them in the 1930’s, when Stalin took away their food and starved 20 million Ukrainians to death. They are also going to remember that President Bill Clinton compelled them to give up their nukes in the 1990’s in exchange FOR THE PROTECTION OF THE UNITED STATES. I hope Biden’s half measures work and quickly. Ukraine is the breadbasket of the region and offers Russia a defensive buffer state vs the West, Putin is going to use all available military resources to end the conflict as a military victory for Russia. Unfortunately the next step may be to establish a no fly zone. Putin has been in power for over two decades, it’s no coincidence that now that Trump is gone he has resumed his conquests in Crimea and the Ukraine. Obama basically did nothing. Biden is his guy and he thinks he can act and not face a military response from Uncle Sam. I pray Obama didn’t dismantle our country’s ballistic defenses like he reportedly did with HAARP. That was very shortsighted. Context: Ukraine gave up their nuclear arsenal as a joint agreement for security assurances between Great Britain, Northern Ireland, the United States AND Russia. Furthermore, Ukraine's parliament adopted the resolution in July of 1990, two and a half years before Bill Clinton even became president. You're just intentionally spreading slanted information here with an anti-Democrat spin. It's no coincidence because Putin got Trump elected, not because Trump is some fierce global leader that the world is afraid of (outside of his mental instability) and the KGB reportedly had cultivated Trump as an asset for more than a few decades. Putin's goals were met by his puppet in the Oval, including the withholding of military aid to, yep, Ukraine. There are no "half-measures" taking place. There is a nuclear deterrent that nobody wants to violate. Cut off the oligarch money flowing into Moscow and sanction them into oblivion. Their economy isn't robust enough to deal with sanctions that creep into the trillions. Putin's a dictatorial bully with few allies and shrinking by the day.
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Post by johneaztec on Mar 4, 2022 11:58:02 GMT -8
A few more points. The Ukrainians are going to fight very fiercely for their country. They still remember what the Soviets did to them in the 1930’s, when Stalin took away their food and starved 20 million Ukrainians to death. They are also going to remember that President Bill Clinton compelled them to give up their nukes in the 1990’s in exchange FOR THE PROTECTION OF THE UNITED STATES. I hope Biden’s half measures work and quickly. Ukraine is the breadbasket of the region and offers Russia a defensive buffer state vs the West, Putin is going to use all available military resources to end the conflict as a military victory for Russia. Unfortunately the next step may be to establish a no fly zone. Putin has been in power for over two decades, it’s no coincidence that now that Trump is gone he has resumed his conquests in Crimea and the Ukraine. Obama basically did nothing. Biden is his guy and he thinks he can act and not face a military response from Uncle Sam. I pray Obama didn’t dismantle our country’s ballistic defenses like he reportedly did with HAARP. That was very shortsighted. Context: Ukraine gave up their nuclear arsenal as a joint agreement for security assurances between Great Britain, Northern Ireland, the United States AND Russia. Furthermore, Ukraine's parliament adopted the resolution in July of 1990, two and a half years before Bill Clinton even became president. You're just intentionally spreading slanted information here with an anti-Democrat spin. It's no coincidence because Putin got Trump elected, not because Trump is some fierce global leader that the world is afraid of (outside of his mental instability) and the KGB reportedly had cultivated Trump as an asset for more than a few decades. Putin's goals were met by his puppet in the Oval, including the withholding of military aid to, yep, Ukraine. There are no "half-measures" taking place. There is a nuclear deterrent that nobody wants to violate. Cut off the oligarch money flowing into Moscow and sanction them into oblivion. Their economy isn't robust enough to deal with sanctions that creep into the trillions. Putin's a dictatorial bully with few allies and shrinking by the day. Putin got Trump elected?
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Post by aztecryan on Mar 4, 2022 12:33:01 GMT -8
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Post by johneaztec on Mar 4, 2022 15:04:48 GMT -8
Uh.... (Meant to be in your condescending tone) Putin didn't GET him elected. He may have wanted Trump to win and maybe spread propaganda, but he wasn't the REASON why Trump won. He won because they had a Hillary as a candidate, and also because the American Public was tired of the same 'ol Politicians rhetoric. They didn't want a politician, they wanted someone who didn't give an eff what other politicians, etc, thought of him, and someone who had the countries best interests in mind. Argue whether Trump implemented those ideals or not, but that's a big reach to say that Putin got Trump elected.
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Post by aztecmusician on Mar 5, 2022 0:50:01 GMT -8
Context: Ukraine gave up their nuclear arsenal as a joint agreement for security assurances between Great Britain, Northern Ireland, the United States AND Russia. Furthermore, Ukraine's parliament adopted the resolution in July of 1990, two and a half years before Bill Clinton even became president. You're just intentionally spreading slanted information here with an anti-Democrat spin. It's no coincidence because Putin got Trump elected, not because Trump is some fierce global leader that the world is afraid of (outside of his mental instability) and the KGB reportedly had cultivated Trump as an asset for more than a few decades. Putin's goals were met by his puppet in the Oval, including the withholding of military aid to, yep, Ukraine. There are no "half-measures" taking place. There is a nuclear deterrent that nobody wants to violate. Cut off the oligarch money flowing into Moscow and sanction them into oblivion. Their economy isn't robust enough to deal with sanctions that creep into the trillions. Putin's a dictatorial bully with few allies and shrinking by the day. Putin got Trump elected? This has been thoroughly disproven. The “dirty dossier” was front page news on the liberal news networks for almost 2 years, a pure fabrication and complete lie from the Clinton mud launching machine. The Russians now stand accused of using devastating thermobaric “vacuum bombs” against the Ukrainians. The same weapon if you recall which they used to turn Aleppo into an utterly devastated ruin. One of these weapons explodes near you, you are dead. Putin is an evil war criminal.
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Post by aztecryan on Mar 5, 2022 13:41:02 GMT -8
Uh.... (Meant to be in your condescending tone) Putin didn't GET him elected. He may have wanted Trump to win and maybe spread propaganda, but he wasn't the REASON why Trump won. He won because they had a Hillary as a candidate, and also because the American Public was tired of the same 'ol Politicians rhetoric. They didn't want a politician, they wanted someone who didn't give an eff what other politicians, etc, thought of him, and someone who had the countries best interests in mind. Argue whether Trump implemented those ideals or not, but that's a big reach to say that Putin got Trump elected. "Uh" was utilized because there was an entire GOP-led Senate subcommittee that concluded that Putin interfered with the election on Trump's behalf. It was/is common knowledge. And no, it's not a reach at all. The Kremlin doesn't usually leak documents, but the independent verification of said documents proved that Putin orchestrated a plot to ensure Trump's election. Easily manipulated, mentally unstable, malignant narcissist; the perfect puppet. Trump has a long, long history with Russia. When he declared bankruptcy with nearly two billion dollars in debt, Russian money bailed out his properties. It's all connected.
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Post by aztecryan on Mar 5, 2022 13:42:16 GMT -8
This has been thoroughly disproven. The “dirty dossier” was front page news on the liberal news networks for almost 2 years, a pure fabrication and complete lie from the Clinton mud launching machine. The Russians now stand accused of using devastating thermobaric “vacuum bombs” against the Ukrainians. The same weapon if you recall which they used to turn Aleppo into an utterly devastated ruin. One of these weapons explodes near you, you are dead. Putin is an evil war criminal. Coming from someone who literally lied through their teeth earlier, no, it was not disproven at all. It was the exact opposite.
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Post by aztecmusician on Mar 5, 2022 15:16:17 GMT -8
This has been thoroughly disproven. The “dirty dossier” was front page news on the liberal news networks for almost 2 years, a pure fabrication and complete lie from the Clinton mud launching machine. The Russians now stand accused of using devastating thermobaric “vacuum bombs” against the Ukrainians. The same weapon if you recall which they used to turn Aleppo into an utterly devastated ruin. One of these weapons explodes near you, you are dead. Putin is an evil war criminal. Coming from someone who literally lied through their teeth earlier, no, it was not disproven at all. It was the exact opposite. You are deliberately pivoting the discussion to your irrational Trump derangement mindset. I guess that’s your comfort zone. The far more relevant question, does Biden impose a no fly zone in Ukraine?
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Post by aztecryan on Mar 5, 2022 15:40:51 GMT -8
Coming from someone who literally lied through their teeth earlier, no, it was not disproven at all. It was the exact opposite. You are deliberately pivoting the discussion to your irrational Trump derangement mindset. I guess that’s your comfort zone. The far more relevant question, does Biden impose a no fly zone in Ukraine? You brought up Trump in your previous post when you misled with Bill Clinton requested Ukraine to dispose of their nuclear arsenal. You brought him up. And it's highly relevant here, by your own admission, because this wouldn't happen under Trump's watch - And I'm explaining the reasons for that. Nice try with the TDS spin, but it's just not true. To answer your question, probably not. Most of the country supports it, but it will likely enhance tension with the Putin regime as a direct act of confrontation. Fanning the flames is probably not ideal. Although we have Marco Rubio out here doing the work for Putin, it may not be necessary.
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Post by Fishn'Aztec on Mar 5, 2022 20:05:32 GMT -8
It's going to get interesting if Poland loans Ukraine some fighter jets.
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Post by aztecmusician on Mar 6, 2022 10:01:51 GMT -8
Yes it’s going to get interesting, and while all of this is going on I have to think China is fueling up its ships and planes ready to make a run at Taiwan. It’s too bad that the Democrat Party’s political know how has seemingly been reduced to underhanded political skulduggery and baseless accusations and attacks on their political rivals. There was a time a few decades ago when foreign policy was actually one of their strong suits.
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Post by aztecryan on Mar 6, 2022 18:32:38 GMT -8
Yes it’s going to get interesting, and while all of this is going on I have to think China is fueling up its ships and planes ready to make a run at Taiwan. It’s too bad that the Democrat Party’s political know how has seemingly been reduced to underhanded political skulduggery and baseless accusations and attacks on their political rivals. There was a time a few decades ago when foreign policy was actually one of their strong suits. Were you asleep the last four years when we had daily attacks on social media of the free press, racial slurs towards members of Congress, unprecedented corruption across multiple branches of government and two impeachments? Just checking. You want to make everything a political hitjob about one party when we got into this mess because of BOTH parties. It reeks of just uninformed bias. This isn't a new development, either. Marjorie Taylor Greene and Lauren Boebert inhabit the GOP. That's embarrassing on its own.
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