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Post by uwaztec on Aug 22, 2009 15:55:20 GMT -8
>>Feral cats are murder on the habitat of islands.<< Well, sure, feral cats can be a problem, especially if they have been introduced into an environment unnaturally. But the same can be said about bunny rabbits. papahanaumokuakea.gov/visit/laysan.htmlI guess I'm just not right with the idea that anyone in the biology world would "dislike" any particular species, the necessities of predator control notwithstanding. Sid, cats can evoke a lot of emotion among people. Seems people either love them or hate them. Go to a big book store like Borders some time and see how many books there are for anti-cat people. It would be hard to find a "I hate dogs" book. I worked with some pretty macho diver types over the years, and the one cat lover on the boat got all kinds of grief. I need to learn to keep my mouth shut, because my wife and I are no longer invited to one couples home because of disparaging remarks I made about cats. I was only joking, but cat lovers are very sensitive. My daughter just got a cat in her San Francisco apartment, but she walks on water in my eyes so I keep my mouth shut. |
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Post by Bob Forsythe on Aug 23, 2009 8:53:54 GMT -8
Don't wait too long - it's a good thing to get a new puppy or kitten in the house. If you really want your hands full, get an Airedale. If you want less of a challenge but with the same attitude, get a Welsh terrier. Terriers are the best. =Bob Bob, someone would have to put a gun to my head for me to get a cat. Many in the biology world dislike cats. Nothing is worse than a feral cat. I know 2 biologists who were in charge of cat eradication programs at Socorro Island and Clarion Island(Revillagigedos) and at the Los Coronados islands. Feral cats are murder on the habitat of islands. They have no predators and they can survive without water (north island Los Coronados). As for dogs, for better or worse because of tendency of health issues, we are Boxer people. I'm well aware of the cat haters. I got into it on a listserve a few years back with a woman who referred to cats as "bloodthirsty butchers" and claimed that every outdoor cat kills an average of 4-5 birds a day, which is ridiculous. The problem with cats are owners who do not spay or neuter them. That leads to large feral cat populations. I am also well aware of what cat colonies can do in ecosystems where they have no predators, but we're talking about cats with homes in urban environments, not feral cats. =Bob |
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Post by uwaztec on Aug 23, 2009 12:59:53 GMT -8
Bob, someone would have to put a gun to my head for me to get a cat. Many in the biology world dislike cats. Nothing is worse than a feral cat. I know 2 biologists who were in charge of cat eradication programs at Socorro Island and Clarion Island(Revillagigedos) and at the Los Coronados islands. Feral cats are murder on the habitat of islands. They have no predators and they can survive without water (north island Los Coronados). As for dogs, for better or worse because of tendency of health issues, we are Boxer people. I'm well aware of the cat haters. I got into it on a listserve a few years back with a woman who referred to cats as "bloodthirsty butchers" and claimed that every outdoor cat kills an average of 4-5 birds a day, which is ridiculous. The problem with cats are owners who do not spay or neuter them. That leads to large feral cat populations. I am also well aware of what cat colonies can do in ecosystems where they have no predators, but we're talking about cats with homes in urban environments, not feral cats. =Bob Bob, as soon as my boxers urine markings fade away... the neighborhood cats will invade my yard and kill every lizard and bird they can get to. Neighborhood dogs do not come into my yard, why do cat owners see no problem with cats coming into my yard? In every cat discussion / disagreement I have ever had with a cat owner, they will eventually cop to something like:..."well my cat did kill 3 hummingbirds this week and droped a few dead lizards on my porch".. then they will continue with the conversation as if it is not an issue. In an urban environment...sorry to say they are big killers. |
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Post by davdesid on Aug 23, 2009 15:07:22 GMT -8
I'm well aware of the cat haters. I got into it on a listserve a few years back with a woman who referred to cats as "bloodthirsty butchers" and claimed that every outdoor cat kills an average of 4-5 birds a day, which is ridiculous. The problem with cats are owners who do not spay or neuter them. That leads to large feral cat populations. I am also well aware of what cat colonies can do in ecosystems where they have no predators, but we're talking about cats with homes in urban environments, not feral cats. =Bob Bob, as soon as my boxers urine markings fade away... the neighborhood cats will invade my yard and kill every lizard and bird they can get to. Neighborhood dogs do not come into my yard, why do cat owners see no problem with cats coming into my yard? In every cat discussion / disagreement I have ever had with a cat owner, they will eventually cop to something like:..."well my cat did kill 3 hummingbirds this week and droped a few dead lizards on my porch".. then they will continue with the conversation as if it is not an issue. In an urban environment...sorry to say they are big killers. uw, this attitude of yours about certain animals is a side of you I find a little bit surprising. And disappointing, too. There are ways to deal with it, though, if you have a mind to try: www.hsus.org/pets/pet_care/our_pets_for_life_program/cat_behavior_tip_sheets/discouraging_freeroaming_cats.html |
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Post by uwaztec on Aug 23, 2009 16:07:30 GMT -8
Bob, as soon as my boxers urine markings fade away... the neighborhood cats will invade my yard and kill every lizard and bird they can get to. Neighborhood dogs do not come into my yard, why do cat owners see no problem with cats coming into my yard? In every cat discussion / disagreement I have ever had with a cat owner, they will eventually cop to something like:..."well my cat did kill 3 hummingbirds this week and droped a few dead lizards on my porch".. then they will continue with the conversation as if it is not an issue. In an urban environment...sorry to say they are big killers. uw, this attitude of yours about certain animals is a side of you I find a little bit surprising. And disappointing, too. There are ways to deal with it, though, if you have a mind to try: www.hsus.org/pets/pet_care/our_pets_for_life_program/cat_behavior_tip_sheets/discouraging_freeroaming_cats.html Sid.... I can have this conversation with 80% of my male friends and none will bat an eye. Thanks for the tips though. I must mention that I have a crazy cat lady living down the street who has perhaps 10 cats that roam free. The thing about a cat is that you can be the laziest pet owner in the World to have one.... just put out food and water and forget about it. At least a dog will force you to do minimal training and hands on so you don't go crazy! And yes, like Politics and religion, you have to be very careful who you get in a conversation about cats with..... |
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Post by Bob Forsythe on Aug 23, 2009 17:42:27 GMT -8
I'm well aware of the cat haters. I got into it on a listserve a few years back with a woman who referred to cats as "bloodthirsty butchers" and claimed that every outdoor cat kills an average of 4-5 birds a day, which is ridiculous. The problem with cats are owners who do not spay or neuter them. That leads to large feral cat populations. I am also well aware of what cat colonies can do in ecosystems where they have no predators, but we're talking about cats with homes in urban environments, not feral cats. =Bob Bob, as soon as my boxers urine markings fade away... the neighborhood cats will invade my yard and kill every lizard and bird they can get to. Neighborhood dogs do not come into my yard, why do cat owners see no problem with cats coming into my yard? In every cat discussion / disagreement I have ever had with a cat owner, they will eventually cop to something like:..."well my cat did kill 3 hummingbirds this week and droped a few dead lizards on my porch".. then they will continue with the conversation as if it is not an issue. In an urban environment...sorry to say they are big killers. Sorry Rich, but that's sort of nonsensical. I've had cats since '79 and I think there might have been one time when a cat killed a lizard and brought it back (did have a lizard caught in a mice glue box once). My black female, who is now about 10, used to catch humming birds who fed at our Mexican sage, but that was no more than 2 a year and she hasn't caught a hummingbird in several years. This entire hatred of cats goes back a long way and as much as I hate to say it, biologists who hate cats are nothing more than modern witch hunters. If cats during the Middle Ages hadn't been seen as "evil" companions of "witches", the Black Plague may not have been anywhere near as severe as it was. Cats are predators. They keep down the population of mice and rats and help us avoid disease. Dogs are for show, cats are for dough. Dogs are pretty much worthless except for the fact that humans like their unconditional love and slavish behavior. And don't get me wrong - I like dogs even if I am to lazy to walk them and pick up their $#!+. I can identify most every dog breed that is AKC recognized. But the simple fact is this - cats are far more intelligent than dogs and that's why I like having them. Boxers are rather short-lived, so while they're rather "pretty", they would not be my choice in dogs. Given my choice, I'd take an Airedale every day of the week. But then again, my ex-girlfriend and I had an Airedale and she wound costing a fortune because she developed Addison's Disease. Dogs are incredibly over-bred. =Bob |
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Post by uwaztec on Aug 23, 2009 18:37:36 GMT -8
Bob, as soon as my boxers urine markings fade away... the neighborhood cats will invade my yard and kill every lizard and bird they can get to. Neighborhood dogs do not come into my yard, why do cat owners see no problem with cats coming into my yard? In every cat discussion / disagreement I have ever had with a cat owner, they will eventually cop to something like:..."well my cat did kill 3 hummingbirds this week and droped a few dead lizards on my porch".. then they will continue with the conversation as if it is not an issue. In an urban environment...sorry to say they are big killers. Sorry Rich, but that's sort of nonsensical. I've had cats since '79 and I think there might have been one time when a cat killed a lizard and brought it back (did have a lizard caught in a mice glue box once). My black female, who is now about 10, used to catch humming birds who fed at our Mexican sage, but that was no more than 2 a year and she hasn't caught a hummingbird in several years. This entire hatred of cats goes back a long way and as much as I hate to say it, biologists who hate cats are nothing more than modern witch hunters. If cats during the Middle Ages hadn't been seen as "evil" companions of "witches", the Black Plague may not have been anywhere near as severe as it was. Cats are predators. They keep down the population of mice and rats and help us avoid disease. Dogs are for show, cats are for dough. Dogs are pretty much worthless except for the fact that humans like their unconditional love and slavish behavior. And don't get me wrong - I like dogs even if I am to lazy to walk them and pick up their $#!+. I can identify most every dog breed that is AKC recognized. But the simple fact is this - cats are far more intelligent than dogs and that's why I like having them. Boxers are rather short-lived, so while they're rather "pretty", they would not be my choice in dogs. Given my choice, I'd take an Airedale every day of the week. But then again, my ex-girlfriend and I had an Airedale and she wound costing a fortune because she developed Addison's Disease. Dogs are incredibly over-bred. =Bob Sorry Bob...I watched a jack russell terrier kill 25 rats in one hour at the Poway Barns one day. As far as cats being smarter than dogs... that would be apples and oranges... can you find me a link for that? The only thing you said that I would agree with is that boxers are overbred. |
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Post by aztecwin on Aug 23, 2009 19:05:13 GMT -8
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Post by uwaztec on Aug 23, 2009 19:51:52 GMT -8
Thanks for saving me from myself Win.... yea, my wife and I are thinking of going. |
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Post by Bob Forsythe on Aug 24, 2009 19:04:21 GMT -8
uwaztec board=np thread=94 post=917 time=1251081456] Sorry Bob...I watched a jack russell terrier kill 25 rats in one hour at the Poway Barns one day. As far as cats being smarter than dogs... that would be apples and oranges... can you find me a link for that? The only thing you said that I would agree with is that boxers are overbred. Dang, bet it was fun to watch a terrier kill 25 rats  . You bitch about cats killing birds while celebrating terriers killing that many rats? How screwed up is that? I don't need to offer a link about cats being smarter than dogs. I've lived with dogs and cats and I can state with certainty that cats are smarter than dogs. And, BTW, Boxers are short lived and not all that bright. Do not get into an argument with me on dogs because I know dogs very well. The fact that I don't much care to take care of dogs does not mean that I don't understand them. =Bob |
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Post by uwaztec on Aug 24, 2009 19:26:26 GMT -8
uwaztec board=np thread=94 post=917 time=1251081456] Sorry Bob...I watched a jack russell terrier kill 25 rats in one hour at the Poway Barns one day. As far as cats being smarter than dogs... that would be apples and oranges... can you find me a link for that? The only thing you said that I would agree with is that boxers are overbred. Dang, bet it was fun to watch a terrier kill 25 rats . You bitch about cats killing birds while celebrating terriers killing that many rats? How screwed up is that? I don't need to offer a link about cats being smarter than dogs. I've lived with dogs and cats and I can state with certainty that cats are smarter than dogs. And, BTW, Boxers are short lived and not all that bright. Do not get into an argument with me on dogs because I know dogs very well. The fact that I don't much care to take care of dogs does not mean that I don't understand them. =Bob Bob... Norway rats are introduced. They are found in the urban environment and their populations are high due to our presence. I don't have any problem with a dog or a cat killing introduced rats... My point was that certain breeds of dogs can predate on rats.... you say you know a lot about dogs, apparently not. |
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Post by Bob Forsythe on Aug 26, 2009 5:47:23 GMT -8
uwaztec board=np thread=94 post=917 time=1251081456] Sorry Bob...I watched a jack russell terrier kill 25 rats in one hour at the Poway Barns one day. As far as cats being smarter than dogs... that would be apples and oranges... can you find me a link for that? The only thing you said that I would agree with is that boxers are overbred. Dang, bet it was fun to watch a terrier kill 25 rats . You bitch about cats killing birds while celebrating terriers killing that many rats? How screwed up is that? I don't need to offer a link about cats being smarter than dogs. I've lived with dogs and cats and I can state with certainty that cats are smarter than dogs. And, BTW, Boxers are short lived and not all that bright. Do not get into an argument with me on dogs because I know dogs very well. The fact that I don't much care to take care of dogs does not mean that I don't understand them. =Bob Bob... Norway rats are introduced. They are found in the urban environment and their populations are high due to our presence. I don't have any problem with a dog or a cat killing introduced rats... My point was that certain breeds of dogs can predate on rats.... you say you know a lot about dogs, apparently not. I'm well aware for terrier breeds that were developed to kill rats. Manchester terriers often work in tandem as they chase rats down. But my point was that nobody ever hears of "barn dogs" as they do "barn cats". Either way, I think we've driven this into the ground. =Bob |
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Post by aztecwin on Aug 26, 2009 17:53:55 GMT -8
Thanks for saving me from myself Win.... yea, my wife and I are thinking of going. What kind of compromise can be reached to let enough water to flow for these fish to regain a foothold? Could some sort of deal be struck to allow enough Delta water to flow to allow Steelhead to recover without sacrificing the endangered species in the Delta? Can additional storage be built to allow the capture and storage of more runoff without creating more problems? |
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Post by sportnlyf on Aug 27, 2009 16:24:36 GMT -8
Aztecwin, those are some good questions and as always the devil is in the details. I attended the meeting Tuesday and found it to be pretty interesting, particularly the fact that NMFS and the FWS now believe that tiny remnant populations have been hanging on and reproducing under the most dire of conditions.
My opinions regarding your questions:
1) Generally speaking, I don't believe you will see much in the way of compromise from the water agencies, local governments and development interests. Since the Southern Steelhead is listed as endangered, the issue becomes more intriguing. More water is just one of the issues and probably not as significant as manmade barriers, invasive species and a general decline in stream and estuary water quality. It appears that they have rated the San Luis Rey River, San Juan Creek, San Mateo Creek and Santa Margarita Rivers as offering the best opportunities for recovery and I would agree with that assessment, assuming cooperation from Camp Pendleton in particular. Of these streams, I believe only the San Luis Rey is dammed, so there seems to be a sense that despite frequent droughts which have occurred over many years, the fish have been able to adapt and somehow survive to this point and would do much better with some improvement in conditions other than water releases or flows.
2) I don't believe the delta water is an issue here as it does not currently supplement any reservoirs in these watersheds. And you are right, the T&E species in the Delta can't afford to give up any more water anyway.
3) Building additional storage capacity comes with a host of problems, which is why the SD County Water Authority is raising and existing dam (San Vicente) to store more imported (Feather and Colorado River) water rather than trying to build a new reservoir in say Pamo Valley.
Anyway you slice it, it remains a very difficult issue - and it ultimately is not just a steelhead issue when you consider how many other benefits are associated with improving water quality in our streams and estuaries.
I don't have or know of any answers that would easily resolve this issue or make it less painful and expensive.
. ti
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Post by Bob Forsythe on Aug 27, 2009 17:35:03 GMT -8
1) Generally speaking, I don't believe you will see much in the way of compromise from the water agencies, local governments and development interests. Since the Southern Steelhead is listed as endangered, the issue becomes more intriguing. More water is just one of the issues and probably not as significant as manmade barriers, invasive species and a general decline in stream and estuary water quality. It appears that they have rated the San Luis Rey River, San Juan Creek, San Mateo Creek and Santa Margarita Rivers as offering the best opportunities for recovery and I would agree with that assessment, assuming cooperation from Camp Pendleton in particular. Of these streams, I believe only the San Luis Rey is dammed, so there seems to be a sense that despite frequent droughts which have occurred over many years, the fish have been able to adapt and somehow survive to this point and would do much better with some improvement in conditions other than water releases or flows. I think you're correct on the damming, but the San Luis Rey also has problems with the sand mining ponds on the Pala Reservation. Based upon my experience in Lakeside, on the San Diego River, there are some rather large bass in those sand mining ponds that would militate against steelhead migration. =Bob |
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Post by aztecwin on Aug 28, 2009 10:19:41 GMT -8
Aztecwin, those are some good questions and as always the devil is in the details. I attended the meeting Tuesday and found it to be pretty interesting, particularly the fact that NMFS and the FWS now believe that tiny remnant populations have been hanging on and reproducing under the most dire of conditions. My opinions regarding your questions: 1) Generally speaking, I don't believe you will see much in the way of compromise from the water agencies, local governments and development interests. Since the Southern Steelhead is listed as endangered, the issue becomes more intriguing. More water is just one of the issues and probably not as significant as manmade barriers, invasive species and a general decline in stream and estuary water quality. It appears that they have rated the San Luis Rey River, San Juan Creek, San Mateo Creek and Santa Margarita Rivers as offering the best opportunities for recovery and I would agree with that assessment, assuming cooperation from Camp Pendleton in particular. Of these streams, I believe only the San Luis Rey is dammed, so there seems to be a sense that despite frequent droughts which have occurred over many years, the fish have been able to adapt and somehow survive to this point and would do much better with some improvement in conditions other than water releases or flows. 2) I don't believe the delta water is an issue here as it does not currently supplement any reservoirs in these watersheds. And you are right, the T&E species in the Delta can't afford to give up any more water anyway. 3) Building additional storage capacity comes with a host of problems, which is why the SD County Water Authority is raising and existing dam (San Vicente) to store more imported (Feather and Colorado River) water rather than trying to build a new reservoir in say Pamo Valley. Anyway you slice it, it remains a very difficult issue - and it ultimately is not just a steelhead issue when you consider how many other benefits are associated with improving water quality in our streams and estuaries. I don't have or know of any answers that would easily resolve this issue or make it less painful and expensive. . ti I was thinking of building more capacity up north in addition to here so that water could flow more freely everywhere. I think that would make improving the water quality less of a problem. I agree that building culverts and maybe ladders would be very expensive, but well worth it. |
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. You bitch about cats killing birds while celebrating terriers killing that many rats? How screwed up is that? 