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Post by sportnlyf on Aug 17, 2009 6:16:51 GMT -8
Uwaztec, thank you. I included the black seabass because its numbers are a fraction of what they were before we overfished them so badly, and I agree that the inshore gillnet ban along with total protection from divers and rod and reel anglers has prevented them from going the way of the antelope and grizzly. I honestly believe your term "huge recovery" is overstated at this point. As you know, these fish can live for 100+ years and i believe it takes them awhile to reach sexual maturity so our overfishing of the adults severely impacted them and a huge or full recovery if the latter is ever possible, will take a lot longer. As a kid, I was a deckhand for Mel Shears one summer and later wrote a story about the old salt. Mel was quite a BS'r, but he claimed to have personally caught huge numbers in the 30's to help support himself. When I was a little kid, you always see a few hanging, along with striped marlin down at the Marlin Club every weekend, most of them in the 200 to 400 pound class. Even as late as the early 60's when I was in high school, the big ones were still being taken and I recall that Dr. Hollander and his son, who was a classmate of mine caught quite a few, including some record fish. I'm very happy that measures were taken to protect these fish and I agree that they are in recovery from near extirpation from southern California waters, but their numbers, particularly of large specimens is still a fraction of what it was and will remain so for a very long time.
As for the grizzlies, I believe the last one in the state was killed in 1916 and I have always found it interesting that San Diego county was known for its grizzlies rather than black bears, although a few of the latter have shown up here over the last few decades. Most were assumed to have come down from San Bernardino, but there was a reliable sighting of a sow and two cubs on Otay Mountain in 1952. Old newspaper accounts reported the Gaskill brothers shooting two grizzlies the same day in the Lagunas in 1888. I could be wrong, but I believe I read the last pronghorns of our coastal plain disappeared from Kearny Mesa in 1926.
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Post by sportnlyf on Aug 17, 2009 6:28:59 GMT -8
One thing that is so frustrating with regard to our water along with its cost and waste is the effort and expense put into not only treating it to potalbe standards, but the extraordinary cost we've gone to in trying to make it taste better - depite the fact we consume or cook with a drop or two from a bucket that is used for yard irrigation, car washing, pools, etc.
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Post by uwaztec on Aug 17, 2009 15:06:07 GMT -8
Uwaztec, thank you. I included the black seabass because its numbers are a fraction of what they were before we overfished them so badly, and I agree that the inshore gillnet ban along with total protection from divers and rod and reel anglers has prevented them from going the way of the antelope and grizzly. I honestly believe your term "huge recovery" is overstated at this point. As you know, these fish can live for 100+ years and i believe it takes them awhile to reach sexual maturity so our overfishing of the adults severely impacted them and a huge or full recovery if the latter is ever possible, will take a lot longer. As a kid, I was a deckhand for Mel Shears one summer and later wrote a story about the old salt. Mel was quite a BS'r, but he claimed to have personally caught huge numbers in the 30's to help support himself. When I was a little kid, you always see a few hanging, along with striped marlin down at the Marlin Club every weekend, most of them in the 200 to 400 pound class. Even as late as the early 60's when I was in high school, the big ones were still being taken and I recall that Dr. Hollander and his son, who was a classmate of mine caught quite a few, including some record fish. I'm very happy that measures were taken to protect these fish and I agree that they are in recovery from near extirpation from southern California waters, but their numbers, particularly of large specimens is still a fraction of what it was and will remain so for a very long time. As for the grizzlies, I believe the last one in the state was killed in 1916 and I have always found it interesting that San Diego county was known for its grizzlies rather than black bears, although a few of the latter have shown up here over the last few decades. Most were assumed to have come down from San Bernardino, but there was a reliable sighting of a sow and two cubs on Otay Mountain in 1952. Old newspaper accounts reported the Gaskill brothers shooting two grizzlies the same day in the Lagunas in 1888. I could be wrong, but I believe I read the last pronghorns of our coastal plain disappeared from Kearny Mesa in 1926. O.K. Sportyn...since I love subjects like this... I checked with my resident expert for San Diego County records only. Last grizzly bear killed in SD was 1906 at San Onofre Creek. Last pronghorn sighting in the County was 1922 at Carrizo Gorge in Borrego. side note: Last Jaguar killed in California was 1860 at Palm Springs. |
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Post by Bob Forsythe on Aug 17, 2009 15:49:55 GMT -8
Hey Sportn, really like your analysis. Not many people know that the last pronghorn antelope was killed on Kearny Mesa (1916?) For a time in the early '80s I was the chair of a San Diego County Archeology Society sub-committee (think it was something like the historical sub-committee, but don't exactly remember). I edited an oral history transcript done with a woman by the name of Dawson, whose Grandfather had owned most of the land from the Carlsbad power plant to Vista, including all of Laguna Aqua Hedionda. In one part of it she talks about her Grandmother seeing pronghorns on the "plains of Vista" back in the 1880s. Also talks about badgers and how many of those do we have today? And since we both worked in archeology, we both know that in prehistoric times and through the 1920s at least, we had Pismo clams down here. I won't even bother to discuss the abalone decline. =Bob |
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Post by Bob Forsythe on Aug 17, 2009 15:59:11 GMT -8
O.K. Sportyn...since I love subjects like this... I checked with my resident expert for San Diego County records only. Last grizzly bear killed in SD was 1906 at San Onofre Creek. Last pronghorn sighting in the County was 1922 at Carrizo Gorge in Borrego. side note: Last Jaguar killed in California was 1860 at Palm Springs. I suspect I've got a good idea of who your source is and I cannot dispute what he knows. I had thought the last grizzly shot in the County was in Valley Center, but on further checking, that was the largest grizzly, or so was claimed. =Bob |
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Post by uwaztec on Aug 17, 2009 16:13:35 GMT -8
Hey Sportn, really like your analysis. Not many people know that the last pronghorn antelope was killed on Kearny Mesa (1916?) For a time in the early '80s I was the chair of a San Diego County Archeology Society sub-committee (think it was something like the historical sub-committee, but don't exactly remember). I edited an oral history transcript done with a woman by the name of Dawson, whose Grandfather had owned most of the land from the Carlsbad power plant to Vista, including all of Laguna Aqua Hedionda. In one part of it she talks about her Grandmother seeing pronghorns on the "plains of Vista" back in the 1880s. Also talks about badgers and how many of those do we have today? And since we both worked in archeology, we both know that in prehistoric times and through the 1920s at least, we had Pismo clams down here. I won't even bother to discuss the abalone decline. =Bob Bob...there are a few pismos around here still. Best place, Coronado. I see fresh dead valves at Torrey Pines on occasion. |
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Post by uwaztec on Aug 17, 2009 16:17:37 GMT -8
Uwaztec, thank you. I included the black seabass because its numbers are a fraction of what they were before we overfished them so badly, and I agree that the inshore gillnet ban along with total protection from divers and rod and reel anglers has prevented them from going the way of the antelope and grizzly. I honestly believe your term "huge recovery" is overstated at this point. As you know, these fish can live for 100+ years and i believe it takes them awhile to reach sexual maturity so our overfishing of the adults severely impacted them and a huge or full recovery if the latter is ever possible, will take a lot longer. As a kid, I was a deckhand for Mel Shears one summer and later wrote a story about the old salt. Mel was quite a BS'r, but he claimed to have personally caught huge numbers in the 30's to help support himself. When I was a little kid, you always see a few hanging, along with striped marlin down at the Marlin Club every weekend, most of them in the 200 to 400 pound class. Even as late as the early 60's when I was in high school, the big ones were still being taken and I recall that Dr. Hollander and his son, who was a classmate of mine caught quite a few, including some record fish. I'm very happy that measures were taken to protect these fish and I agree that they are in recovery from near extirpation from southern California waters, but their numbers, particularly of large specimens is still a fraction of what it was and will remain so for a very long time. As for the grizzlies, I believe the last one in the state was killed in 1916 and I have always found it interesting that San Diego county was known for its grizzlies rather than black bears, although a few of the latter have shown up here over the last few decades. Most were assumed to have come down from San Bernardino, but there was a reliable sighting of a sow and two cubs on Otay Mountain in 1952. Old newspaper accounts reported the Gaskill brothers shooting two grizzlies the same day in the Lagunas in 1888. I could be wrong, but I believe I read the last pronghorns of our coastal plain disappeared from Kearny Mesa in 1926. Good point re: recovery. I have seen 16 black sea bass (50 - 250lbs.) on a single dive at Catalina within the last 3 years. Of course these are mating/feeding aggregations in Summer months. |
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Post by Bob Forsythe on Aug 17, 2009 16:47:07 GMT -8
For a time in the early '80s I was the chair of a San Diego County Archeology Society sub-committee (think it was something like the historical sub-committee, but don't exactly remember). I edited an oral history transcript done with a woman by the name of Dawson, whose Grandfather had owned most of the land from the Carlsbad power plant to Vista, including all of Laguna Aqua Hedionda. In one part of it she talks about her Grandmother seeing pronghorns on the "plains of Vista" back in the 1880s. Also talks about badgers and how many of those do we have today? And since we both worked in archeology, we both know that in prehistoric times and through the 1920s at least, we had Pismo clams down here. I won't even bother to discuss the abalone decline. =Bob Bob...there are a few pismos around here still. Best place, Coronado. I see fresh dead valves at Torrey Pines on occasion. I will bow to your expertise on that, but let's face it; we could find tons of pismos in trash pits from the 19th Century and sure as Hell that's different if we still had trash pits. Jeez, I dug up tons of them at Presidio; it was the main clam shell I found. =Bob |
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Post by sportnlyf on Aug 17, 2009 20:45:08 GMT -8
Fellow lovers of this county's extraordinary natural history, although it may have been a sighting as opposed to a carcass for proof, I'm pretty sure that jaguar were observed here long after the one you mentioned as having been killed in Palm Springs. At the moment, an Arizona wildlife biologist working on an intergovernmental team for monitoring of the very last known jaguar in that state (I believe it may have had a radio collar) is in hot water for trapping the big male after getting some estrus laden urine from a zoo to lure it in. The stress of the unauthorized capture led to kidney failure which in turn led to the death of the last known jaguar in Arizona. Last I heard, recovery team colleagues were calling for his head. Kind of reminds me of the night the animal regulation officer claimed to be trying to protect the Presidio/Mission Hills white deer from traffic and vice versa and ended up killing it.
For some reason, Carrizo Gorge does not make me think of pronghorn habitat, Peninsular bighorns for sure, but not antelope.
As an unfortunate aside, I may have caught the last steelhead to have been caught in the Santa Margarita.
By the way, the strand is not good for pismo clams - it is extraordinary in terms of the numbers that can be found on a minus tide as well as their size!
Go straight out from the structure that I believe supported a suspended antennae and was seen from time to time in John from Cincinnati - and you will be in the midst of the bed.
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Post by davdesid on Aug 18, 2009 13:38:49 GMT -8
Fellow lovers of this county's extraordinary natural history, although it may have been a sighting as opposed to a carcass for proof, I'm pretty sure that jaguar were observed here long after the one you mentioned as having been killed in Palm Springs. At the moment, an Arizona wildlife biologist working on an intergovernmental team for monitoring of the very last known jaguar in that state (I believe it may have had a radio collar) is in hot water for trapping the big male after getting some estrus laden urine from a zoo to lure it in. The stress of the unauthorized capture led to kidney failure which in turn led to the death of the last known jaguar in Arizona. Last I heard, recovery team colleagues were calling for his head. Kind of reminds me of the night the animal regulation officer claimed to be trying to protect the Presidio/Mission Hills white deer from traffic and vice versa and ended up killing it. For some reason, Carrizo Gorge does not make me think of pronghorn habitat, Peninsular bighorns for sure, but not antelope. As an unfortunate aside, I may have caught the last steelhead to have been caught in the Santa Margarita. By the way, the strand is not good for pismo clams - it is extraordinary in terms of the numbers that can be found on a minus tide as well as their size! Go straight out from the structure that I believe supported a suspended antennae and was seen from time to time in John from Cincinnati - and you will be in the midst of the bed. Stories on the recent jaguar in Arizona here: www.azgfd.net/wildlife/conservation-news/arizona-game-and-fish-collars-first-wild-jaguar-in-united-states/2009/02/20/and here: www.livescience.com/animals/090303-arizona-jaguars.html |
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Post by Bob Forsythe on Aug 18, 2009 16:49:16 GMT -8
15-16 is pretty old for big cats in the wild. I do love Jaguars - have ever since I saw Disney's "Jungle Cat" when I was 10.
=Bob
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Post by Bob Forsythe on Aug 18, 2009 16:53:12 GMT -8
Fellow lovers of this county's extraordinary natural history, although it may have been a sighting as opposed to a carcass for proof, I'm pretty sure that jaguar were observed here long after the one you mentioned as having been killed in Palm Springs. At the moment, an Arizona wildlife biologist working on an intergovernmental team for monitoring of the very last known jaguar in that state (I believe it may have had a radio collar) is in hot water for trapping the big male after getting some estrus laden urine from a zoo to lure it in. The stress of the unauthorized capture led to kidney failure which in turn led to the death of the last known jaguar in Arizona. Last I heard, recovery team colleagues were calling for his head. Kind of reminds me of the night the animal regulation officer claimed to be trying to protect the Presidio/Mission Hills white deer from traffic and vice versa and ended up killing it. For some reason, Carrizo Gorge does not make me think of pronghorn habitat, Peninsular bighorns for sure, but not antelope. As an unfortunate aside, I may have caught the last steelhead to have been caught in the Santa Margarita. By the way, the strand is not good for pismo clams - it is extraordinary in terms of the numbers that can be found on a minus tide as well as their size! Go straight out from the structure that I believe supported a suspended antennae and was seen from time to time in John from Cincinnati - and you will be in the midst of the bed. Well, all I can say to you and UW is that it's nice to have a couple people on here who know WTF they're talking about. These issues are often complex as Hell and too many people see them in political terms. =Bob |
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Post by davdesid on Aug 18, 2009 16:57:58 GMT -8
I'm a big fan of cats, large and small. When they get old they are susceptible to kidney disease and diabetes.
I've had to have two housecats euthanized in the past couple of years. One was 17, and the other was at least that old and maybe more (he was a stray we took in). They got to the point that they were wasting away, down to about 7-8 pounds. Couldn't hold their water, drank copious amounts of water, ate like pigs, and still lost weight.
Every Vet I know agrees that this is a common ailment in older cats.
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Post by Bob Forsythe on Aug 18, 2009 17:18:11 GMT -8
I'm a big fan of cats, large and small. When they get old they are susceptible to kidney disease and diabetes. I've had to have two housecats euthanized in the past couple of years. One was 17, and the other was at least that old and maybe more (he was a stray we took in). They got to the point that they were wasting away, down to about 7-8 pounds. Couldn't hold their water, drank copious amounts of water, ate like pigs, and still lost weight. Every Vet I know agrees that this is a common ailment in older cats. Sigh, I understand it well. Did your cats have access to dog food? Dog food contains a certain amount of pot ash or something like that which can cause crystals to form in a cat's kidneys - my ex-girlfriend had to put down a stray she adopted because of that. Still, having a couple cats that old and being able to be with them when they die is a good thing. We lost our 11 year old male 8 days ago to some predator. We heard what sounded like a cat fight around 3:30 in the morning and he disappeared. It is so difficult to deal with cats disappearing and we've had a history of our male cats doing so (my wife has an even longer history since every male cat she's ever had disappeared). My wife was devastated when he went missing, as she was with the last two males of ours that went missing, but we are now talking about getting a couple of male kittens once I'm working again (at the moment we have two females who don't get along at all because they are both "alphas" and spend a bit of time every day trying to set up ambushes on each other; we got one as a kitten and the other was my wife's mother's cat and came into the house as an adult - never do that with females; male cats are much easier to deal with). =Bob |
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Post by sportnlyf on Aug 18, 2009 19:33:35 GMT -8
Bob, were your males neutered? I'm told by vets that neutered cats and dogs live longer on average because they are not out carousing when the scent of love is in the air. A friend who lives in the Crest area decided long ago togive his cats numbers rather than names because of the high incidence of predation by coyotes in his neighborhood. He says his family has found it much easier to get over the loss of a cat known by a number rather than a name. In Tierrasanta, my particular neighborhood is experiencing the biggest cottontail population explosion we have seen since moving here in 1975. The coyote cycle follows the cottontail cycle closely and already one of our neighbor's managed to save their little dog before a coote got back through a fence with it, but not before their dog lost an eye in the skirmish.
Quite frankly, I'm much rather see this National Politics forum changed into the Wildlife and Natural History of San Diego forum. Seems that people can managed to be civil on this topic.
The senseless and often mean-spirited bickering of politics is otherwise driving me away from here.
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Post by AztecWilliam on Aug 18, 2009 20:32:11 GMT -8
Bob, were your males neutered? I'm told by vets that neutered cats and dogs live longer on average because they are not out carousing when the scent of love is in the air. A friend who lives in the Crest area decided long ago togive his cats numbers rather than names because of the high incidence of predation by coyotes in his neighborhood. He says his family has found it much easier to get over the loss of a cat known by a number rather than a name. In Tierrasanta, my particular neighborhood is experiencing the biggest cottontail population explosion we have seen since moving here in 1975. The coyote cycle follows the cottontail cycle closely and already one of our neighbor's managed to save their little dog before a coote got back through a fence with it, but not before their dog lost an eye in the skirmish. Quite frankly, I'm much rather see this National Politics forum changed into the Wildlife and Natural History of San Diego forum. Seems that people can managed to be civil on this topic. The senseless and often mean-spirited bickering of politics is otherwise driving me away from here. Really? Gee, I was thinking that the tone of this forum is a bit tame compared with what went down in the old AztecTalk.org. Hope you don't pull up stakes. AzWm |
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Post by uwaztec on Aug 19, 2009 7:55:25 GMT -8
Bob, were your males neutered? I'm told by vets that neutered cats and dogs live longer on average because they are not out carousing when the scent of love is in the air. A friend who lives in the Crest area decided long ago togive his cats numbers rather than names because of the high incidence of predation by coyotes in his neighborhood. He says his family has found it much easier to get over the loss of a cat known by a number rather than a name. In Tierrasanta, my particular neighborhood is experiencing the biggest cottontail population explosion we have seen since moving here in 1975. The coyote cycle follows the cottontail cycle closely and already one of our neighbor's managed to save their little dog before a coote got back through a fence with it, but not before their dog lost an eye in the skirmish. Quite frankly, I'm much rather see this National Politics forum changed into the Wildlife and Natural History of San Diego forum. Seems that people can managed to be civil on this topic. The senseless and often mean-spirited bickering of politics is otherwise driving me away from here. Sportn.... great idea re: Wildlife / Natural History forum! Question re: the steelhead you caught at Pendleton.. were you working for Trout Unlimited on a survey? ... or were you targeting that fish? |
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Post by sportnlyf on Aug 19, 2009 16:35:08 GMT -8
Uwaztec, I caught that fish in 1967 or 68 after I returned home to San Diego after an outstanding fishing, but poor academic year in Wildlife Management at Humboldt State. At the time, the Santa Margarita was pretty interesting in that the DFG was planting quarter-pounders and there were some very nice largemouth in some of the sidewaters that had ponded up a bit. It was a very nice looking steelhead, thought not huge.
This was prior to TU or CAl Trout establishing anything in this area. I'm kind of fascinated with the history of steelhead here as I once read the diaries of a couple of old game wardens from the 20's and 30's who used to move the fish upstream by hand when the water was too low.
Working with the USFWS and DFG on this in the past, that was the most recent and southernmost steelhead in the last 50 years or so, though I'm happy to say that the smolts found in the next watershed to the north are evidence there were still fish her a few years ago. In his book Steelhead, Trey Combs reports on a steelhead caught in the Otay River and some years ago we did a survey on the Rio San Antonio 150 miles south of the border. While we did not see any steelhead, we did see to Pacific lamprey which is pretty amazing.
You might find the San Diego Trout website of interest.
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Post by Bob Forsythe on Aug 19, 2009 17:28:01 GMT -8
Bob, were your males neutered? I'm told by vets that neutered cats and dogs live longer on average because they are not out carousing when the scent of love is in the air. A friend who lives in the Crest area decided long ago togive his cats numbers rather than names because of the high incidence of predation by coyotes in his neighborhood. He says his family has found it much easier to get over the loss of a cat known by a number rather than a name. In Tierrasanta, my particular neighborhood is experiencing the biggest cottontail population explosion we have seen since moving here in 1975. The coyote cycle follows the cottontail cycle closely and already one of our neighbor's managed to save their little dog before a coote got back through a fence with it, but not before their dog lost an eye in the skirmish. Quite frankly, I'm much rather see this National Politics forum changed into the Wildlife and Natural History of San Diego forum. Seems that people can managed to be civil on this topic. The senseless and often mean-spirited bickering of politics is otherwise driving me away from here. Except for my first cat, which I got when I was 18 and didn't know anything about cats, all my cats have been neutered or spayed because he died at age 3 from feline leukemia, most likely because he was out prowling and growling all night long (he did not disappear). The latest male just disappeared, but with the noise, I'm guessing it was a predator that got him. The one before that was one of the two cats my wife brought here when her mother had to go into a home in Canada (that's the point with the two alpha females - both adults and they have never gotten along), and he was spooked by our resident female a few weeks after he got here and we assume he got hit by a car. The one before that was 14 and not well and our best guess is that he found a place where he wanted to die and went there. Before that, my Siamese male had to be put down because his kidneys failed. And before that, every male cat that my wife has had, as a kid and an adult, all disappeared even though they were all neutered. =Bob |
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Post by Bob Forsythe on Aug 19, 2009 17:31:33 GMT -8
Uwaztec, I caught that fish in 1967 or 68 after I returned home to San Diego after an outstanding fishing, but poor academic year in Wildlife Management at Humboldt State. At the time, the Santa Margarita was pretty interesting in that the DFG was planting quarter-pounders and there were some very nice largemouth in some of the sidewaters that had ponded up a bit. It was a very nice looking steelhead, thought not huge. This was prior to TU or CAl Trout establishing anything in this area. I'm kind of fascinated with the history of steelhead here as I once read the diaries of a couple of old game wardens from the 20's and 30's who used to move the fish upstream by hand when the water was too low. Working with the USFWS and DFG on this in the past, that was the most recent and southernmost steelhead in the last 50 years or so, though I'm happy to say that the smolts found in the next watershed to the north are evidence there were still fish her a few years ago. In his book Steelhead, Trey Combs reports on a steelhead caught in the Otay River and some years ago we did a survey on the Rio San Antonio 150 miles south of the border. While we did not see any steelhead, we did see to Pacific lamprey which is pretty amazing. You might find the San Diego Trout website of interest. Do you work for the Service, CF&G or as a consultant? Seems to me I read something about steelhead sightings somewhere in the county in the last few years. =Bob |
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