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Post by Fishn'Aztec on Jan 14, 2011 7:36:01 GMT -8
Considering the rare occasions San Diego State quarterback Ryan Lindley ran, this clearly will be a hybrid of the West Coast offense Hoke's teams ran the past two years.
Was Borges really running a West Coast Offense?
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Post by monty on Jan 14, 2011 7:59:15 GMT -8
The qb rarely, if ever, has a called run in a west coast offense offense. West coast offense is generally an offense that is geared towards contained passing game with many quick 3 step drops and also play action pass, 2 back running game. It also was a paradigm shift that the run didn't have to set up the pass by bringing the defense up towards the line, but that quick passes and the deep ball could stretch the defense vertically. Some of the guys that have run this have had good scrambling ability and as such were on a lot of bootlegs where they'd scramble (Joe Montana), but that is essentially the running qb component
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Post by k5james on Jan 14, 2011 8:01:22 GMT -8
Yes, Borges was really running the West Coast Offense.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 14, 2011 8:07:05 GMT -8
Not sure why Rocky wouldn't give a call to Norv and ask if he knows of any potential OC talent at the pro level that might want a college position.
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Post by k5james on Jan 14, 2011 8:15:45 GMT -8
Not sure why Rocky wouldn't give a call to Norv and ask if he knows of any potential OC talent at the pro level that might want a college position. He may have...no way to know for sure. The Charger's staff in the past has been pretty friendly about sharing info with the Aztecs. |
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Post by AztecBill on Jan 14, 2011 8:48:58 GMT -8
Yes, Borges was really running the West Coast Offense. I didn't think so. Doesn't the West Coast offense rely more on short passes to backs? We used a power running game and a deep passing game. That is classic pro-style offense. |
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Post by JOCAZTEC on Jan 14, 2011 8:51:27 GMT -8
The one game that clearly showed the difference was the Aztec, "ref-rip-off", game at Missouri. The Missouri Cyclones ran the boring spread, and the Aztecs ran the Pro set. The Aztecs won the game, except as our defense was making a defensive stop, the big twelve refs decided to cheat.
RRR
HAM
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Post by Fishn'Aztec on Jan 14, 2011 8:56:38 GMT -8
Yes, Borges was really running the West Coast Offense. I didn't think so. Doesn't the West Coast offense rely more on short passes to backs? We used a power running game and a deep passing game. That is classic pro-style offense. That was my impression: "Pro-set" rather than Walsh's WC offense! |
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Post by k5james on Jan 14, 2011 8:59:06 GMT -8
I didn't think so. Doesn't the West Coast offense rely more on short passes to backs? We used a power running game and a deep passing game. That is classic pro-style offense. That was my impression: "Pro-set" rather than Walsh's WC offense! It wasn't Walsh's West Coast offense, it was Coryell/Zampese's West Coast offense. |
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Post by Fishn'Aztec on Jan 14, 2011 9:06:15 GMT -8
That was my impression: "Pro-set" rather than Walsh's WC offense! It wasn't Walsh's West Coast offense, it was Coryell/Zampese's West Coast offense. Yes, I'm well aware that the butt-head sportswriters of this country incorrectly applied the West Coast name to Walsh's cut & chop blocking offense! I believe it was Bernie Kosar that referred to Air Coryell as that West Coast thing they do out there but it was confused & all downhill from there. |
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Post by k5james on Jan 14, 2011 9:17:13 GMT -8
It wasn't Walsh's West Coast offense, it was Coryell/Zampese's West Coast offense. Yes, I'm well aware that the butt-head sportswriters of this country incorrectly applied the West Coast name to Walsh's cut & chop blocking offense! I believe it was Bernie Kosar that referred to Air Coryell as that West Coast thing they do out there but it was confused & all downhill from there. Yessir, and it's a version of their system that we've been running for the last two years. St. Don would have been proud of our offense this year... |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 14, 2011 9:41:17 GMT -8
Wasn't Coryell's big innovation (among many) that he changed the dynamics of the passing game in that you no longer threw to a man, but rather, threw to a spot. And it was bascially the recievers job to get to that spot at a predetermined time no matter what? If he didn't, the QB could look really foolish.
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Post by Fishn'Aztec on Jan 14, 2011 9:48:09 GMT -8
Don's numerical play system and the timed routes were some of the innovations. Don also came up with the I formation as an assistant coach under John McKay at U$C!
Dr. Z has the best story & details of the whole WC Offense.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 14, 2011 10:14:31 GMT -8
Yes, I'm well aware that the butt-head sportswriters of this country incorrectly applied the West Coast name to Walsh's cut & chop blocking offense! I believe it was Bernie Kosar that referred to Air Coryell as that West Coast thing they do out there but it was confused & all downhill from there. Yessir, and it's a version of their system that we've been running for the last two years. St. Don would have been proud of our offense this year... Well, I don't give a rat's ass what name we give it. By whatever name, what we used the last two years was Aztecs football. Also this. Fishtec or whatever his moniker now is and I have discussed before what a terrible fit Walsh's offense is for the college level. It relied to a huge extent on precise timing between QB and receiver and there simply is not enough practice time available at the college level to make that offense work effectively. Fishtec first argued that to me and having given it thought, I am absolutely convinced he was correct. I don't remember what examples he used but in every case, colleges who tried to fit that square peg into their round hold couldn't make it work. So I don't want an OC who plans to implement a Bill Walsh offense. Nor do I ever want to see some sort of option BS at SDSU like Franchione would probably have implemented. Nor do I care to see us run the spread again since I think that offense has hit it's peak and defenses are just now beginning to learn how to scheme to defend it. Oh and on the plus side, I just heard Mike Huguenin say this and I think it's also a great point. Every stud HS kid wants to play in the NFL. Nobody in the NFL runs a spread offense and guys like Kevin O'C who did have not fared well trying to take the ball from center as a pro. So I think implementing the spread is going to potentially hurt QB recruiting too. I'll readily admit there are people on this board who understand this stuff better than I do. So if I'm off base on any of the above, I encourage them to set me straight. |
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Post by Fishn'Aztec on Jan 14, 2011 10:38:23 GMT -8
The offense as I understood it from the failed attempt by Karl Dorell was based on the Qbs & wrs making reads of the defense and then adjusting their routes & throws correctly. All this mumbo jumbo means that the offense needs continuity & practice reps only seen in the pro game. 1 receiver goes down & in comes a new guy with little experience at the spot & you have problems. SF had the same qb working constantly with 2 pro bowl wideouts(Rice & Taylor), along with rb Roger Craig & TE Dwight Clark. The cut blocks & chop blocks made by the SF fullbacks were regulated out of the game & took away that element of the run game.
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Post by dshawfan on Jan 14, 2011 10:42:27 GMT -8
Yessir, and it's a version of their system that we've been running for the last two years. St. Don would have been proud of our offense this year... Well, I don't give a rat's ass what name we give it. By whatever name, what we used the last two years was Aztecs football. Also this. Fishtec or whatever his moniker now is and I have discussed before what a terrible fit Walsh's offense is for the college level. It relied to a huge extent on precise timing between QB and receiver and there simply is not enough practice time available at the college level to make that offense work effectively. Fishtec first argued that to me and having given it thought, I am absolutely convinced he was correct. I don't remember what examples he used but in every case, colleges who tried to fit that square peg into their round hold couldn't make it work. So I don't want an OC who plans to implement a Bill Walsh offense. Nor do I ever want to see some sort of option BS at SDSU like Franchione would probably have implemented. Nor do I care to see us run the spread again since I think that offense has hit it's peak and defenses are just now beginning to learn how to scheme to defend it. Oh and on the plus side, I just heard Mike Huguenin say this and I think it's also a great point. Every stud HS kid wants to play in the NFL. Nobody in the NFL runs a spread offense and guys like Kevin O'C who did have not fared well trying to take the ball from center as a pro. So I think implementing the spread is going to potentially hurt QB recruiting too. I'll readily admit there are people on this board who understand this stuff better than I do. So if I'm off base on any of the above, I encourage them to set me straight. Huguenin is absolutely correct. No one runs spread in the NFL because the QB would ultimately be physically destroyed by the pounding he would take. Hell, look at how banged up Vick was by the end of the season; now imagine if he were running option as well. For preparing one's self for the next level, a pro-style offense is the ticket. You will generally see a base front of some sort (yes there are the TCUs and SDSUs that run some rarely seen fronts) but for the most part you are going to see some form of 4-3, 3-4 type of look with a 1 high or 2 high safety look which gives a qb a solid foundation from which to build his reading skills. Really for the Dennard kid back at UM, moving to a pro style attack might be the best thing for him in terms of preparing himself for a possible future as an NFL QB. It may kill his heisman chances, but if he can master it, he may have a long and lucrative career at the next level. |
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Post by dshawfan on Jan 14, 2011 10:49:29 GMT -8
I am going to disagree with those who say there is not enough time at the college level to install a Walsh type WC offense. At the HS level we have route adjustments based on the coverage they are seeing. Our Qbs also understand who their primary is based on their pre-snap read. Now if we can get it done at our level, there is no doubt that it can be accomplished at the next level.
Most of it gets taught in the off season, spring ball and summer workouts before camp ever starts. Hopefully during the season you are just polishing skills.
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Post by NTU on Jan 14, 2011 14:50:38 GMT -8
The biggest "innovation" that the West Coast system brought to offensive football was the use of the running backs as receivers out of the backfield, particularly the fullback. At the time it was a wrinkle that was rarely seen at any level. The other was the use of the short, quick hit passing game as an addendum to the run game. Just about every pro style offense nowadays has incorporated those concepts into their systems. It's that short passing game that draws defenses up and opens up the long ball.
One need look no further for the influence of the West Coast system than Borges' use of Brandon Sullivan. Technically, he was a fullback. But in this offense, he was so much more, and so much more valuable to the Aztecs than your typical lead blocker, which is really all a fullback is in most offenses. How many plays did we see Sullivan make downfield in the passing game over the last two years?
And I'm with dshaw: There's no reason that this kind of system can't be run here. You incorporate a series of simple reads. No need to get overly complex like many at the NFL level do, where they have so much more time to prepare. You use a combination of the reads and motion to determine what routes to run (motion tells you what coverage a defense is in, which alters the reads). Urban Meyer's offense is entirely based on those kinds of reads, and the routes are usually determined at the line of scrimmage, depending entirely on what coverage they're seeing. If the Utah's and Florida's of the world can do that, then so can the Aztecs. And the system employed by the Aztecs isn't quite as intricate as Meyer's is.
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