Public Sector Unions & Governments collide.

[AztecWilliam]

Without comment from me (at this point, at least). Here's hoping that the usual suspects ( will not jump to conclusions about my own views on this subject.

www.economist.com/node/17851305

AzWm

[aztecwin]

I will speculate that the action of just posting this informative article from this fine publication shows me your views. I suspect they coincide with mine for the most part.

Some well defined issues and common sense suggestions for improvement are talked about.

[aztec70]

The article certainly speaks to the issues. The public sector has gotten out of hand with pensions costs. My officemate and I frequently speak with amazement at what our clients that have retired from goverment get in the way of pensions.

Promises will need to be broken if we are to get out of the mess we are in. Promises that were made in good faith, but without good thought.

Is the poster, and the first respondent, ready to see their pensions cut?

[AlwaysAnAztec]

Public sector unions cannot strike here in the U.S. The author might want to do his homework before trying to tie unions in the U.S. and Europe together.

[AztecWilliam]

Jan 10, 2011 8:16:53 GMT -8 AlwaysAnAztec said:

Public sector unions cannot strike here in the U.S. The author might want to do his homework before trying to tie unions in the U.S. and Europe together.

But do they have to when, in a real sense, they can chose their bosses (i.e. help elect friendly officials)?

Anyway, there have been plenty of teachers strikes. As I recall it from my regular teaching days, strikes are allowed if there is an impasse in negotiations. Maybe that's just California.

AzWm

[AztecWilliam]

Jan 9, 2011 20:59:27 GMT -8 aztec70 said:

The article certainly speaks to the issues. The public sector has gotten out of hand with pensions costs. My officemate and I frequently speak with amazement at what our clients that have retired from government get in the way of pensions.

Promises will need to be broken if we are to get out of the mess we are in. Promises that were made in good faith, but without good thought.

Is the poster, and the first respondent, ready to see their pensions cut?

Cut my pension?

Well, it could happen. What's more likely is that younger workers will be placed in a different category with respect to retirement. (Defined contribution instead of defined benefit. My 42 year old son has that at GEICO, for instance. At least younger workers can plan ahead and save extra for greater retirement money or to retire early.)

As a practical matter there is not much chance that people who have already retired will suffer cuts. What is quite possible is that our cost of living adjustments will be trimmed. Actually, as a member of STRS, I am (at present, anyway) guaranteed that the purchasing power of my pension will never fall below 80% of what it was at retirement. But even if that promise is kept it will amount to a cut of 20%.

For the record, my pension, after 30 years of service and at age 60 upon retirement was 70% of my final year's pay. I consider that to be pretty good, but nowhere near some of the retirement rates one reads about. But those retirees usually were high level officials.

One thing is clear. Something has to be done. We can't go on like this indefinitely. We (here and even more so in Europe) have had several decades of governments proudly rewarding their citizens with more and more (and more costly) benefits. These benefits have turned out to be unsustainable. Bankruptcy looms. But the average Joe on the street say, "What the hell, you promised me this, and I want it!" You see, once you have told someone that a benefit is an entitlement, you have made it very tough to tell him, somewhere down the road, Sorry, we goofed, you can't have so much any more.

If you do not think that the U.S. is headed down the same road on which Greece, Ireland, Italy, etc., have run into the ditch, take a look at this article linked below. Even if you do not like what the guy says, you should at least look very closely at the graph.

floydreports.com/gratitude-begins-where-my-sense-of-entitlement-ends/

AzWm

[AlwaysAnAztec]

Jan 10, 2011 12:18:30 GMT -8 AztecWilliam said:

Jan 10, 2011 8:16:53 GMT -8 AlwaysAnAztec said:

Public sector unions cannot strike here in the U.S. The author might want to do his homework before trying to tie unions in the U.S. and Europe together.

But do they have to when, in a real sense, they can chose their bosses (i.e. help elect friendly officials)?

Anyway, there have been plenty of teachers strikes. As I recall it from my regular teaching days, strikes are allowed if there is an impasse in negotiations. Maybe that's just California.

AzWm

Oops. Need to restate. It is against Federal law for Federal employees to strike. It is also against State law for State employees to strike. Teachers have struck in the past but they were doing it at their own risk as they could have been immediatly terminated. To be honest, I don't know if it was the terms of their employment contract or state law that prohibited the teacher strike. All I know is that my father-in-law had his picture in the paper carrying a sign and was quite concerned until 'all was forgiven'.

[AlwaysAnAztec]

Jan 10, 2011 12:43:33 GMT -8 AztecWilliam said:

Jan 9, 2011 20:59:27 GMT -8 aztec70 said:

The article certainly speaks to the issues. The public sector has gotten out of hand with pensions costs. My officemate and I frequently speak with amazement at what our clients that have retired from government get in the way of pensions.

Promises will need to be broken if we are to get out of the mess we are in. Promises that were made in good faith, but without good thought.

Is the poster, and the first respondent, ready to see their pensions cut?

Cut my pension?

Well, it could happen. What's more likely is that younger workers will be placed in a different category with respect to retirement. (Defined contribution instead of defined benefit. My 42 year old son has that at GEICO, for instance. At least younger workers can plan ahead and save extra for greater retirement money or to retire early.)

As a practical matter there is not much chance that people who have already retired will suffer cuts. What is quite possible is that our cost of living adjustments will be trimmed. Actually, as a member of STRS, I am (at present, anyway) guaranteed that the purchasing power of my pension will never fall below 80% of what it was at retirement. But even if that promise is kept it will amount to a cut of 20%.

For the record, my pension, after 30 years of service and at age 60 upon retirement was 70% of my final year's pay. I consider that to be pretty good, but nowhere near some of the retirement rates one reads about. But those retirees usually were high level officials.

One thing is clear. Something has to be done. We can't go on like this indefinitely. We (here and even more so in Europe) have had several decades of governments proudly rewarding their citizens with more and more (and more costly) benefits. These benefits have turned out to be unsustainable. Bankruptcy looms. But the average Joe on the street say, "What the hell, you promised me this, and I want it!" You see, once you have told someone that a benefit is an entitlement, you have made it very tough to tell him, somewhere down the road, Sorry, we goofed, you can't have so much any more.

If you do not think that the U.S. is headed down the same road on which Greece, Ireland, Italy, etc., have run into the ditch, take a look at this article linked below. Even if you do not like what the guy says, you should at least look very closely at the graph.

floydreports.com/gratitude-begins-where-my-sense-of-entitlement-ends/

AzWm

As far as pensions go, teachers get the shaft. I have figured that my wife at 60 with 25 years will get just about 50% more than what she would have received in Social Security. As you well know, teachers in Calif. are not in SS. So her 'pension' for 25 years of teaching works out to about 1500 per month.

[aztecwin]

Jan 10, 2011 8:16:53 GMT -8 AlwaysAnAztec said:

Public sector unions cannot strike here in the U.S. The author might want to do his homework before trying to tie unions in the U.S. and Europe together.

Not a strike, but the recent job action slow down when snow should have been cleared is pretty nearly a strike.

[aztecwin]

Jan 9, 2011 20:59:27 GMT -8 aztec70 said:

The article certainly speaks to the issues. The public sector has gotten out of hand with pensions costs. My officemate and I frequently speak with amazement at what our clients that have retired from goverment get in the way of pensions.

Promises will need to be broken if we are to get out of the mess we are in. Promises that were made in good faith, but without good thought.

Is the poster, and the first respondent, ready to see their pensions cut?

I could handle my pension(s) cut, but I am against breaking the faith with not only Servicemen, but also Police, and Firefighters. I think we might be able to add some years to the eligibility for early retirement and privatize that retirement along the lines of the current Federal Employees Retirement System (FERS) for those folks. That is about the same idea I have for other retirements that people have been under in good faith. I would think that folks who have purchased retirement credits could have their money returned and their benefits reduced. Most if not all retirement systems should be changed now to be completely funded by employee contributions and current employers deposits. No unfunded liabilities in the future. Take steps like that and you would still have a problem, but it would decrease rapidly as time went by.

Bottom line is I would be willing to let my ox be gored, but not all folks have enough other assets to get by and most have worked in good faith under systems that can't stand without strain to the taxpayers. Tough problem!