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Post by William L. Rupp on May 1, 2024 18:46:03 GMT -8
But not "Aztec Sports and Conference Discussions" related. This board, despite its name, is really open to any SDSU related discussion.
WLR
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Post by heuschele on May 1, 2024 22:59:05 GMT -8
Believe it or not some people are just against war in principle. Like some people are pacifists or conscientious objectors. By the time I was twelve I had seen enough of war to know that it was a good thing to avoid if possible. Interesting that these protestors don’t have all that much to say about Oct 7th and the violence that started all this. They seem to care only about the war on one side. How do you think the “from the river to the sea” chant you constantly hear from these people occurs without a major war? Many believe/know it started long before Oct 7. What is the difference between administrative detention and taking hostages? Is there any difference? How long can a people tolerate illegal (from an international law perspective) settling in their territory? How does this differ from an invasion? How many times must the US veto UN sensors or condemming of Israel? Over half the US UN vetos. I understanding supporting your allies, but to use more than half your all time vetos against the UN nations views on Israeli behavior makes you question who is right. Is it the majority of UN nations or the US that happens to have veto capability? I am not a fan of UN veto’s whether it being the US or Russia. Professionally I led the software that integrated the JSF with the Israeli radio. They have great weapon systems with IMO the 2nd best fighter jets in the world. I recognize not all Israeli’s favor settling in the West Bank, but it continues with the apparent backing of the Israeli government. I am not stating Hamas actions were right, but death from a thousand cuts was the alternative. Israel’s response that has killed thousands of civilians would not be tolerated by our military. I recognize our government has spoken out against the Israel methods, but words have not changed anything. It is not black and white issue, but Israel is our ally. Go aztecs
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Post by fowl on May 1, 2024 23:10:31 GMT -8
Interesting that these protestors don’t have all that much to say about Oct 7th and the violence that started all this. They seem to care only about the war on one side. How do you think the “from the river to the sea” chant you constantly hear from these people occurs without a major war? What started all this goes back many decades. There is plenty of blame for everyone. Really? There were 1,139 innocent civilians who ended up being brutally murdered that day for no reason. No Reason. Just slaughtered because they happened to live in Israel. There was a father who had a daughter with special needs who had an inability to walk or speak who the hamas terrorist hunted down like animals and slaughtered them. Do you and hoobs, longtimebooster, and @zura315 support the slaughter of those innocent beings? I’ll answer that as a definitive NO because I know you three aren’t like that. You all are good, descent people who wouldn’t wish what the Israeli’s faced on October 7th on anyone else.
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Post by longtimebooster on May 2, 2024 5:49:34 GMT -8
What started all this goes back many decades. There is plenty of blame for everyone. Really? There were 1,139 innocent civilians who ended up being brutally murdered that day for no reason. No Reason. Just slaughtered because they happened to live in Israel. There was a father who had a daughter with special needs who had an inability to walk or speak who the hamas terrorist hunted down like animals and slaughtered them. Do you and hoobs, longtimebooster, and @zura315 support the slaughter of those innocent beings? I’ll answer that as a definitive NO because I know you three aren’t like that. You all are good, descent people who wouldn’t wish what the Israeli’s faced on October 7th on anyone else. Well, since you dragged me into this. Of course, I don't support the slaughter of Israeli citizens. And, yes, Hamas is a horrible, misogynistic, racist, homophobic political entity that deploys terrorism as a tactic to maintain and extend its power. Neither do I support the bombing of a densely populated region that results in the deaths of over 35,000 people, the vast majority innocent men, women and children. The problems with these university protests -- and they are almost too numerous to count -- is that there's very little black and white. The issues are complex and extraordinarily difficult to untangle. Heck, most of the citizens of Israel are angry at their own government, their negligence in advance of the Hamas invasion and their blunt-force response that has so far yielded the return of few hostages. So if you want to protest the catastrophe that's taking place right now in Gaza, you can't just pick a side and yell, "Yay, Israel!" or "Yay, Palestine!" and then feel good about it. Further, hoobs said this issues go back decades. I would argue that they go back millennia. I've traveled extensively throughout the Middle East and have written and photographed my way through what is really a remarkable land so dense with history -- a history that is as much a blessing as a curse. I was in Diyarbakir, Turkey, last fall when the Hamas invasion was launched. It's a city in southeastern Turkey that sits on the Tigris River near the borders of Syria, Iraq and Iran. I was listening to our guide rattle off a litany of empires that had once made Diyarbakir a strategic outpost and trading center -- Sumarians, Assyrians, Hittites, Alexander the Great, Romans, Byzantines, Timur the Conqueror, the Ottomans, etc. I asked him how many times Diyarbakir had been sacked. "Thirty-one," he replied. That is a lot of strife, struggle and warfare going back over 7,000 years. I actually just finished an in-depth article on Timur the Conqueror following my recent trip to Samarkand, Uzbekistan. One of the aspects of my research that comes through in the piece is how the Soviets spent nearly a full century from in a concerted effort to transform their empire's holdings in Islamic Central Asia. The Soviets were atheists and valued science and reason (think what you will about communism, the worst form of government ever), and they had the hubris to believe that they could mold these cultures -- which go back 10,000 years -- into their image. Oddly, the Soviets were very pro-feminist, advocating for equal rights for women and were very aggressive about pushing women into the workforce (they sort of had to since all the men kept getting slaughtered in WWI and II.) They banned hijabs throughout Central Asia and had regular head-covering burnings in communities throughout the region. They were also disturbed that the Uzbeks revered Timur, who in the late 1300s and early 1400s, built one of the largest land empires in history that stretched from Western China to the Mediterranean, killing an estimated 17 million people along the way. Good times. So the Soviets made a concerted effort to downplay Timur and promote other, more acceptable, historic figures. But in spite of all their fairly noble intentions, the Soviet efforts in Central Asia failed spectacularly. The second the Berlin Wall fell, every one of their provinces declared independence. As for their efforts to mute Timur? The Uzbeks promptly took down all the statues of Stalin and Soviet figures and put up dozens of statues of Timur, one of which is 100 feet high. The fearsome conqueror is everywhere -- on tourism posters, currency, the town square, etc. And the women -- most of them anyway; it varies from region to region -- went back to wearing veils and full coverings. The point is, if you think you're going to go into the Middle East or Central Asia and change these millennia-old cultures, you need to lower the dose on your psilocybin prescription. It didn't work for the Soviets. Didn't work for the Americans. And likely won't work for Israel. Hence the difficulty and complexity of solving the crisis in Gaza. I believe there is a solution. But it will take a lot of work and a lot of time and it will be of the walking-on-eggshells variety, not an ironclad type that everyone is happy with. And speaking of misogyny, if these protestors really want to get a cause they can sink their teeth into, they should be advocating for women's rights in the Middle East. That's noble and important. It's one thing to see video and photos of women in hijabs and chadras, but to walk down the street and see groups of 10, 20 and 30 women, all clustered together and covered from head to toe is shocking. Last summer, I was touring an Ottoman palace and the guy in front of me was there with what I assumed were his two wives. It was a hot day, around 95F. The guy was dressed in shorts, a short-sleeved shirt and sandals. The women were in all black with really narrow slits to see out of. I watched the women walk through the palace with its 25-foot-high gilded ceilings, ornate furniture and 400-year-old paintings and mosaics. The women had to keep swiveling their heads, up and down, side to side, simply because they were seeing the world through pinholes. I really wanted to punch that dude in the nose. He deserved it for treating women like chattel. But then that would have been a futile gesture in the face of millennia-old traditions. On a final note, one of the massive problems with the university protests -- as well as with probably 98% of America -- is the remarkable ignorance about the geography, history and cultures in that part of the world. It's a huge problem and makes the protestors look clownish. Whenever I talk to friends or family about some of my travels in the region, almost none of them even know where these places are, much less have an awareness of their deep and rich histories. And yet they have no problem firing off tweets and angry social media posts about the topic like they're experts. It's crazy. For anyone interested, I would recommend a piece yesterday by Nicholas Kristof, the NY Times columnist who has lived and traveled extensively throughout the Middle East. He suggests that student protestors, if they really are serious about the problems in Gaza, should travel to the region, volunteer for one of the many humanitarian organizations in the area, or donate actual money to one of those organizations, rather than doing performative outrage in public and on social media. It's a great idea, but I get the sense that most of these kids will simply fold up their tents as soon as school is out in a couple weeks, go home to their comfortable lives and not think much about Gaza until they're back on campus in the fall. www.nytimes.com/2024/05/01/opinion/student-protests-gaza.htmlSorry for the lengthy tome, but you asked.
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Post by hoobs on May 2, 2024 7:56:01 GMT -8
mic drop
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Post by waxxon on May 2, 2024 8:43:39 GMT -8
I wonder what if
Our border neighbor launched a commando attack on San Diego, killed 1,000 people, took hundreds more as prisoners. Brutalized dismembered, tortured them. Continued firing rockets and taking potshots at Americans because “we” stole this land from them. Their general population 80% in support of the invasion. And now wants to have a cease fire that they already violated.
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Post by azdick on May 2, 2024 8:57:48 GMT -8
Really? There were 1,139 innocent civilians who ended up being brutally murdered that day for no reason. No Reason. Just slaughtered because they happened to live in Israel. There was a father who had a daughter with special needs who had an inability to walk or speak who the hamas terrorist hunted down like animals and slaughtered them. Do you and hoobs, longtimebooster, and @zura315 support the slaughter of those innocent beings? I’ll answer that as a definitive NO because I know you three aren’t like that. You all are good, descent people who wouldn’t wish what the Israeli’s faced on October 7th on anyone else. Well, since you dragged me into this. Of course, I don't support the slaughter of Israeli citizens. And, yes, Hamas is a horrible, misogynistic, racist, homophobic political entity that deploys terrorism as a tactic to maintain and extend its power. Neither do I support the bombing of a densely populated region that results in the deaths of over 35,000 people, the vast majority innocent men, women and children. The problems with these university protests -- and they are almost too numerous to count -- is that there's very little black and white. The issues are complex and extraordinarily difficult to untangle. Heck, most of the citizens of Israel are angry at their own government, their negligence in advance of the Hamas invasion and their blunt-force response that has so far yielded the return of few hostages. So if you want to protest the catastrophe that's taking place right now in Gaza, you can't just pick a side and yell, "Yay, Israel!" or "Yay, Palestine!" and then feel good about it. Further, hoobs said this issues go back decades. I would argue that they go back millennia. I've traveled extensively throughout the Middle East and have written and photographed my way through what is really a remarkable land so dense with history -- a history that is as much a blessing as a curse. I was in Diyarbakir, Turkey, last fall when the Hamas invasion was launched. It's a city in southeastern Turkey that sits on the Tigris River near the borders of Syria, Iraq and Iran. I was listening to our guide rattle off a litany of empires that had once made Diyarbakir a strategic outpost and trading center -- Sumarians, Assyrians, Hittites, Alexander the Great, Romans, Byzantines, Timur the Conqueror, the Ottomans, etc. I asked him how many times Diyarbakir had been sacked. "Thirty-one," he replied. That is a lot of strife, struggle and warfare going back over 7,000 years. I actually just finished an in-depth article on Timur the Conqueror following my recent trip to Samarkand, Uzbekistan. One of the aspects of my research that comes through in the piece is how the Soviets spent nearly a full century from in a concerted effort to transform their empire's holdings in Islamic Central Asia. The Soviets were atheists and valued science and reason (think what you will about communism, the worst form of government ever), and they had the hubris to believe that they could mold these cultures -- which go back 10,000 years -- into their image. Oddly, the Soviets were very pro-feminist, advocating for equal rights for women and were very aggressive about pushing women into the workforce (they sort of had to since all the men kept getting slaughtered in WWI and II.) They banned hijabs throughout Central Asia and had regular head-covering burnings in communities throughout the region. They were also disturbed that the Uzbeks revered Timur, who in the late 1300s and early 1400s, built one of the largest land empires in history that stretched from Western China to the Mediterranean, killing an estimated 17 million people along the way. Good times. So the Soviets made a concerted effort to downplay Timur and promote other, more acceptable, historic figures. But in spite of all their fairly noble intentions, the Soviet efforts in Central Asia failed spectacularly. The second the Berlin Wall fell, every one of their provinces declared independence. As for their efforts to mute Timur? The Uzbeks promptly took down all the statues of Stalin and Soviet figures and put up dozens of statues of Timur, one of which is 100 feet high. The fearsome conqueror is everywhere -- on tourism posters, currency, the town square, etc. And the women -- most of them anyway; it varies from region to region -- went back to wearing veils and full coverings. The point is, if you think you're going to go into the Middle East or Central Asia and change these millennia-old cultures, you need to lower the dose on your psilocybin prescription. It didn't work for the Soviets. Didn't work for the Americans. And likely won't work for Israel. Hence the difficulty and complexity of solving the crisis in Gaza. I believe there is a solution. But it will take a lot of work and a lot of time and it will be of the walking-on-eggshells variety, not an ironclad type that everyone is happy with. And speaking of misogyny, if these protestors really want to get a cause they can sink their teeth into, they should be advocating for women's rights in the Middle East. That's noble and important. It's one thing to see video and photos of women in hijabs and chadras, but to walk down the street and see groups of 10, 20 and 30 women, all clustered together and covered from head to toe is shocking. Last summer, I was touring an Ottoman palace and the guy in front of me was there with what I assumed were his two wives. It was a hot day, around 95F. The guy was dressed in shorts, a short-sleeved shirt and sandals. The women were in all black with really narrow slits to see out of. I watched the women walk through the palace with its 25-foot-high gilded ceilings, ornate furniture and 400-year-old paintings and mosaics. The women had to keep swiveling their heads, up and down, side to side, simply because they were seeing the world through pinholes. I really wanted to punch that dude in the nose. He deserved it for treating women like chattel. But then that would have been a futile gesture in the face of millennia-old traditions. On a final note, one of the massive problems with the university protests -- as well as with probably 98% of America -- is the remarkable ignorance about the geography, history and cultures in that part of the world. It's a huge problem and makes the protestors look clownish. Whenever I talk to friends or family about some of my travels in the region, almost none of them even know where these places are, much less have an awareness of their deep and rich histories. And yet they have no problem firing off tweets and angry social media posts about the topic like they're experts. It's crazy. For anyone interested, I would recommend a piece yesterday by Nicholas Kristof, the NY Times columnist who has lived and traveled extensively throughout the Middle East. He suggests that student protestors, if they really are serious about the problems in Gaza, should travel to the region, volunteer for one of the many humanitarian organizations in the area, or donate actual money to one of those organizations, rather than doing performative outrage in public and on social media. It's a great idea, but I get the sense that most of these kids will simply fold up their tents as soon as school is out in a couple weeks, go home to their comfortable lives and not think much about Gaza until they're back on campus in the fall. www.nytimes.com/2024/05/01/opinion/student-protests-gaza.htmlSorry for the lengthy tome, but you asked.
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Post by azdick on May 2, 2024 9:04:53 GMT -8
Sorry LTB. Was trying to quote you. Profoundly insightful stuff you have presented. The key is exposure to other cultures, and openness to having “new” information to guide opinions and policies. Best thing I ever did was “drop out” and travel in Europe and the Middle East some 50 Years ago. My world view changed 180 degrees and I felt that I had insight that was not be gained through any other process. Good advice to our kids and grandkids - go see the world while you have the chance.
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Post by azson on May 2, 2024 10:09:22 GMT -8
Great post, LTB!
Also, a reminder to everyone, an additional piece to the complexity (and is usually ALWAYS the case when wars are involved), Israel is BIG BUSINESS. The U.S. has given Israel ~300 billion in total economic and military assistance over the past 75 years; guaranteed that profiteers have gotten fat over that time.
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Post by longtimebooster on May 2, 2024 10:17:04 GMT -8
Sorry LTB. Was trying to quote you. Profoundly insightful stuff you have presented. The key is exposure to other cultures, and openness to having “new” information to guide opinions and policies. Best thing I ever did was “drop out” and travel in Europe and the Middle East some 50 Years ago. My world view changed 180 degrees and I felt that I had insight that was not be gained through any other process. Good advice to our kids and grandkids - go see the world while you have the chance. Absolutely. Glad you got to “drop out” for a year. Every young person should do it for enlightenment’s sake.
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Post by longtimebooster on May 2, 2024 10:23:42 GMT -8
I wonder what if Our border neighbor launched a commando attack on San Diego, killed 1,000 people, took hundreds more as prisoners. Brutalized dismembered, tortured them. Continued firing rockets and taking potshots at Americans because “we” stole this land from them. Their general population 80% in support of the invasion. And now wants to have a cease fire that they already violated. I highly doubt 80% of Palestinians supported Hamas’s invasion of Israel. Most Palestinians in Gaza hate Hamas according to most reporting I’ve seen — same as how most (most, not all) Iranians can’t stand the ancient zealots who rule their country. And, of course, no country wants to be subjected to random rocket barrages from unhinged neighbors. But there are other ways to squeeze the life out of Hamas other than bombing all of Gaza into oblivion.
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Post by sdaztecs92115 on May 2, 2024 11:15:18 GMT -8
Someone please explain how this topic has anything to do with SDSU Athletics?
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Post by azson on May 2, 2024 12:00:36 GMT -8
Someone please explain how this topic has anything to do with SDSU Athletics? You, I and others agree; for some reason Wm is allowing it
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Post by aztecfred on May 2, 2024 12:01:09 GMT -8
I wonder what if Our border neighbor launched a commando attack on San Diego, killed 1,000 people, took hundreds more as prisoners. Brutalized dismembered, tortured them. Continued firing rockets and taking potshots at Americans because “we” stole this land from them. Their general population 80% in support of the invasion. And now wants to have a cease fire that they already violated. I highly doubt 80% of Palestinians supported Hamas’s invasion of Israel. Most Palestinians in Gaza hate Hamas according to most reporting I’ve seen — same as how most (most, not all) Iranians can’t stand the ancient zealots who rule their country. And, of course, no country wants to be subjected to random rocket barrages from unhinged neighbors. But there are other ways to squeeze the life out of Hamas other than bombing all of Gaza into oblivion. Yes! Find a way to get the billions of $$$ the world sends to the Palestinians to the Palestinians. Not Hamas or PLO!
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Post by azson on May 2, 2024 12:10:05 GMT -8
I highly doubt 80% of Palestinians supported Hamas’s invasion of Israel. Most Palestinians in Gaza hate Hamas according to most reporting I’ve seen — same as how most (most, not all) Iranians can’t stand the ancient zealots who rule their country. And, of course, no country wants to be subjected to random rocket barrages from unhinged neighbors. But there are other ways to squeeze the life out of Hamas other than bombing all of Gaza into oblivion. Yes! Find a way to get the billions of $$$ the world sends to the Palestinians to the Palestinians. Not Hamas or PLO! And while we're at it, find a way to keep the 3B+ (that we send to Israel annually) here in the U.S. for more important domestic uses.
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Post by johneaztec on May 2, 2024 12:11:03 GMT -8
I wonder what if Our border neighbor launched a commando attack on San Diego, killed 1,000 people, took hundreds more as prisoners. Brutalized dismembered, tortured them. Continued firing rockets and taking potshots at Americans because “we” stole this land from them. Their general population 80% in support of the invasion. And now wants to have a cease fire that they already violated. I highly doubt 80% of Palestinians supported Hamas’s invasion of Israel. Most Palestinians in Gaza hate Hamas according to most reporting I’ve seen — same as how most (most, not all) Iranians can’t stand the ancient zealots who rule their country. And, of course, no country wants to be subjected to random rocket barrages from unhinged neighbors. But there are other ways to squeeze the life out of Hamas other than bombing all of Gaza into oblivion. While I also don't believe 80 percent of Palestinians support Hamas, but at the same time I don't think "most" do not support Hamas. I believe it's definitely north of 50 percent do support Hamas. Having said that, I agree that that doesn't give Israel a green light to bomb haphazardly. It's just a brutal situation.
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Post by azson on May 2, 2024 12:16:33 GMT -8
I highly doubt 80% of Palestinians supported Hamas’s invasion of Israel. Most Palestinians in Gaza hate Hamas according to most reporting I’ve seen — same as how most (most, not all) Iranians can’t stand the ancient zealots who rule their country. And, of course, no country wants to be subjected to random rocket barrages from unhinged neighbors. But there are other ways to squeeze the life out of Hamas other than bombing all of Gaza into oblivion. While I also don't believe 80 percent of Palestinians support Hamas, but at the same time I don't think "most" do not support Hamas. I believe it's definitely north of 50 percent do support Hamas.
Having said that, I agree that that doesn't give Israel a green light to bomb haphazardly. It's just a brutal situation. You (and especially waxxon) are incorrect: Support for Hamas as a political party has fallen to 34% among Palestinians in Gaza and the occupied West Bank, a 12-point drop from December 2023, according to a poll released Wednesday by a leading Palestinian research institute. www.nbcnews.com/news/world/gazans-back-two-state-solution-rcna144183
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Post by missiontrails on May 2, 2024 12:16:57 GMT -8
Yes! Find a way to get the billions of $$$ the world sends to the Palestinians to the Palestinians. Not Hamas or PLO! And while we're at it, find a way to keep the 3B+ (that we send to Israel annually) here in the U.S. for more important domestic uses. And maybe drip a little of that into AztecLink and the Mesa Foundation.
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Post by hoobs on May 2, 2024 13:24:41 GMT -8
While I also don't believe 80 percent of Palestinians support Hamas, but at the same time I don't think "most" do not support Hamas. I believe it's definitely north of 50 percent do support Hamas.
Having said that, I agree that that doesn't give Israel a green light to bomb haphazardly. It's just a brutal situation. You (and especially waxxon) are incorrect: Support for Hamas as a political party has fallen to 34% among Palestinians in Gaza and the occupied West Bank, a 12-point drop from December 2023, according to a poll released Wednesday by a leading Palestinian research institute. www.nbcnews.com/news/world/gazans-back-two-state-solution-rcna144183And the only reason the support for Hamas was that high is because they've been the only political alternative to the very corrupt Palestinian Authority (corruption pretty bluntly fed by the US and Israel)
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Post by johneaztec on May 2, 2024 13:37:45 GMT -8
While I also don't believe 80 percent of Palestinians support Hamas, but at the same time I don't think "most" do not support Hamas. I believe it's definitely north of 50 percent do support Hamas.
Having said that, I agree that that doesn't give Israel a green light to bomb haphazardly. It's just a brutal situation. You (and especially waxxon) are incorrect: Support for Hamas as a political party has fallen to 34% among Palestinians in Gaza and the occupied West Bank, a 12-point drop from December 2023, according to a poll released Wednesday by a leading Palestinian research institute. www.nbcnews.com/news/world/gazans-back-two-state-solution-rcna144183If you're talking about current support, I believe that could be true since they've blasted with bombs, but I believe LTB, was talking about the percentage that supported the recent invasion of Israel. That was definitely up near 70 percent or higher, and states that in the article you quoted.
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