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Post by AztecWilliam on Apr 1, 2024 12:41:17 GMT -8
First of all, let me state (for the zillionth time) that I do not support Donald Trump. There is almost nothing good I can say about him (he doesn't drink or smoke, so there is that ). And, furthermore, I do not think he will win.
But here's the question. What if he does win. What will the Left do about that? I have a couple of ideas, but I'll wait to see what others think before opining.
AzWM
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Post by The Aztec Panther on Apr 1, 2024 12:53:43 GMT -8
What can the left do?
Nothing - until he breaks the law or violates the constitution again.
Now if the Democrats win the house back you may just see Trump overreach and violate the constitution to get his way, in which case the government will be totally broken. The house would impeach, evidence shown in the Senate proving his guilt, and the Republicans will still refuse to vote guilty.
It will be a $#!+ show for 4 years.
And then does Trump willingly step down at the end of his term, or does he try to stay in office despite not being eligible to run again? Don't put it past him.
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Post by aztecryan on Apr 1, 2024 13:46:42 GMT -8
First of all, let me state (for the zillionth time) that I do not support Donald Trump. There is almost nothing good I can say about him (he doesn't drink or smoke, so there is that ). And, furthermore, I do not think he will win.
But here's the question. What if he does win. What will the Left do about that? I have a couple of ideas, but I'll wait to see what others think before opining.
AzWM Nothing. This has been covered in many, many other threads.
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Post by AztecWilliam on Apr 3, 2024 10:44:33 GMT -8
What can the left do? Nothing - until he breaks the law or violates the constitution again. Now if the Democrats win the house back you may just see Trump overreach and violate the constitution to get his way, in which case the government will be totally broken. The house would impeach, evidence shown in the Senate proving his guilt, and the Republicans will still refuse to vote guilty. It will be a $#!+ show for 4 years. And then does Trump willingly step down at the end of his term, or does he try to stay in office despite not being eligible to run again? Don't put it past him. Seriously? Yes, I would put it past him. To even hint at such a possibility is evidence at how divided this country is. To half, Trump is a hero and to the other half he is Adolf Hitler. There has never, ever been such a split in the electorate.
Let's for a moment decide that Trump would try to become a Hitler-like dictator at the end of a second term. There are many, many ways that such a move would be thwarted in a country with over two centuries of strong constitutional representative government. This is not the weak Wiemar government of 1933. ... even moderates disliked it and extremists on both the left and right loathed it, a situation often referred to as a "democracy without democrats". Germany had limited democratic traditions, and Weimar democracy was widely seen as chaotic.
Here's a question. Why did Trump not try to seize power by force in 2021? No, I'm not talking about the January 6th incident. I'm talking about declaring martial law and ordering the U.S. Army to take charge in Washington, DC. That's what a true Hitler would have done. As bad as Trump is in many ways, doing that would be way beyond what he had in mind.
Oh, well, what's the use. To many, Donald Trump IS an American Hitler. I am surprised that some on the Left have not called for his execution. Or has that been suggested and I just missed it.
I will answer my own question.
First, in general, the Left would go absolutely ape-shite crazy. Honeymoon for a new POTUS? CNN, MSNBC, and the major networks would go 24/7 with programs devoted to how Democracy in the USA is on the brink of collapse.
Second, if the Democrats win back the House and Trump also wins, I will give you odds as to how long it will take for DJT to be impeached a third time. Less than a month is my guess.
Once again, and realizing that some readers will ignore this, I want neither Trump nor Biden to be our next President. It's not just that Trump is flawed. That much is true. It's that his opponent is just as flawed.
AzWm
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Post by The Aztec Panther on Apr 3, 2024 10:50:44 GMT -8
What can the left do? Nothing - until he breaks the law or violates the constitution again. Now if the Democrats win the house back you may just see Trump overreach and violate the constitution to get his way, in which case the government will be totally broken. The house would impeach, evidence shown in the Senate proving his guilt, and the Republicans will still refuse to vote guilty. It will be a $#!+ show for 4 years. And then does Trump willingly step down at the end of his term, or does he try to stay in office despite not being eligible to run again? Don't put it past him. Seriously? Yes, I would put it past him. To even hint at such a possibility is evidence at how divided this country is. To half, Trump is a hero and to the other half he is Adolf Hitler. There has never, ever been such a split in the electorate.
Let's for a moment decide that Trump would try to become a Hitler-like dictator at the end of a second term. There are many, many ways that such a move would be thwarted in a country with over two centuries of history of a strong constitutional representative government. This is not the weak Wiemar government of 1933. ... even moderates disliked it and extremists on both the left and right loathed it, a situation often referred to as a "democracy without democrats". Germany had limited democratic traditions, and Weimar democracy was widely seen as chaotic.
Here's a question. Why did Trump not try to seize power by force in 2021? No, I'm not talking about the January 6th incident. I'm talking about declaring martial law and ordering the U.S. Army to take charge in Washington, DC. That's what a true Hitler would have done. As bad as Trump is in many ways, doing that would be way beyond what he had in mind.
Oh, well, what's the use. To many, Donald Trump IS an American Hitler. I am surprised that some on the Left have not called for his execution. Or has that been suggested and I just missed it.
I will answer my own question.
First, in general, the Left would go absolutely ape-$#!+ crazy. Honeymoon for a new POTUS? CNN, MSNBC, and the major networks would 24/7 with programs devoted to how Democracy in the USA is on the brink of collapse.
Second, if the Democrats win back the House and Trump also wins, I will give you odds as to how long it will take for DJT to be impeached a third time. Less than a month is my guess.
Once again, and realizing that some readers will ignore this, I want neither Trump nor Biden to be our next President. It's not just that Trump is flawed. That much is true. It's that his opponent is just as flawed.
AzWm
You need to stop watching Fox News. Trump did want to use the military to impose Martial Law. That's why EVERY SINGLE LIVING FORMER SECRETARY OF DEFENSE SIGNED A LETTER SAYING THAT FOLLOWING SUCH ORDERS WOULD BE TREASON AND PUNISHED HARSHLY. Such a letter had never been issued before. It was never needed until then. They wouldn't have issued that letter had Trump's cabinet members not leaked his desire to do so. It wasn't the first time he proposed unconstitutional actions in complete seriousness and earnestness. He had to be talked down several times. This time he's promised to hire only 100% loyal people to his administration. No one to talk him down this time.
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Post by aztecryan on Apr 3, 2024 10:59:02 GMT -8
What can the left do? Nothing - until he breaks the law or violates the constitution again. Now if the Democrats win the house back you may just see Trump overreach and violate the constitution to get his way, in which case the government will be totally broken. The house would impeach, evidence shown in the Senate proving his guilt, and the Republicans will still refuse to vote guilty. It will be a $#!+ show for 4 years. And then does Trump willingly step down at the end of his term, or does he try to stay in office despite not being eligible to run again? Don't put it past him. Seriously? Yes, I would put it past him. To even hint at such a possibility is evidence at how divided this country is. To half, Trump is a hero and to the other half he is Adolf Hitler. There has never, ever been such a split in the electorate.
Let's for a moment decide that Trump would try to become a Hitler-like dictator at the end of a second term. There are many, many ways that such a move would be thwarted in a country with over two centuries of strong constitutional representative government. This is not the weak Wiemar government of 1933. ... even moderates disliked it and extremists on both the left and right loathed it, a situation often referred to as a "democracy without democrats". Germany had limited democratic traditions, and Weimar democracy was widely seen as chaotic.
Here's a question. Why did Trump not try to seize power by force in 2021? No, I'm not talking about the January 6th incident. I'm talking about declaring martial law and ordering the U.S. Army to take charge in Washington, DC. That's what a true Hitler would have done. As bad as Trump is in many ways, doing that would be way beyond what he had in mind.
Oh, well, what's the use. To many, Donald Trump IS an American Hitler. I am surprised that some on the Left have not called for his execution. Or has that been suggested and I just missed it.
I will answer my own question.
First, in general, the Left would go absolutely ape-$#!+ crazy. Honeymoon for a new POTUS? CNN, MSNBC, and the major networks would 24/7 with programs devoted to how Democracy in the USA is on the brink of collapse.
Second, if the Democrats win back the House and Trump also wins, I will give you odds as to how long it will take for DJT to be impeached a third time. Less than a month is my guess.
Once again, and realizing that some readers will ignore this, I want neither Trump nor Biden to be our next President. It's not just that Trump is flawed. That much is true. It's that his opponent is just as flawed.
AzWm
I assume you were alive three years ago. We already saw this happen - He lost the election, he knew he lost and he still tried to have the election overturned through violent force. He's threatened to terminate the Constitution. He's threatened mass deportations. The ridiculous oversimplifying you're doing here serves nobody. To your point about why didn't Trump declare martial law and bring in the military? He wanted to. www.google.com/amp/s/www.forbes.com/sites/nicholasreimann/2020/12/19/trump-reportedly-asked-advisors-about-deploying-military-to-overturn-election/amp/So, no, it wasn't "way beyond what he had in mind." Here's Michael Flynn talking about it on live television. The ungodly level of pandering here lies second to only your misunderstanding of basic events and the pathetic false equivalences you're generating are nearly as bad. "I'm going to spend multiple paragraphs disclosing false information about how Trump really isn't *that* bad and then say at the end both candidates are the same and I support neither." No.
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Post by azson on Apr 3, 2024 11:16:16 GMT -8
What can the left do? Nothing - until he breaks the law or violates the constitution again. Now if the Democrats win the house back you may just see Trump overreach and violate the constitution to get his way, in which case the government will be totally broken. The house would impeach, evidence shown in the Senate proving his guilt, and the Republicans will still refuse to vote guilty. It will be a $#!+ show for 4 years. And then does Trump willingly step down at the end of his term, or does he try to stay in office despite not being eligible to run again? Don't put it past him. Seriously? Yes, I would put it past him. To even hint at such a possibility is evidence at how divided this country is. To half, Trump is a hero and to the other half he is Adolf Hitler. There has never, ever been such a split in the electorate.
Let's for a moment decide that Trump would try to become a Hitler-like dictator at the end of a second term. There are many, many ways that such a move would be thwarted in a country with over two centuries of strong constitutional representative government. This is not the weak Wiemar government of 1933. ... even moderates disliked it and extremists on both the left and right loathed it, a situation often referred to as a "democracy without democrats". Germany had limited democratic traditions, and Weimar democracy was widely seen as chaotic.
Here's a question. Why did Trump not try to seize power by force in 2021? No, I'm not talking about the January 6th incident. I'm talking about declaring martial law and ordering the U.S. Army to take charge in Washington, DC. That's what a true Hitler would have done. As bad as Trump is in many ways, doing that would be way beyond what he had in mind.
Oh, well, what's the use. To many, Donald Trump IS an American Hitler. I am surprised that some on the Left have not called for his execution. Or has that been suggested and I just missed it.
I will answer my own question.
First, in general, the Left would go absolutely ape-shite crazy. Honeymoon for a new POTUS? CNN, MSNBC, and the major networks would go 24/7 with programs devoted to how Democracy in the USA is on the brink of collapse.
Second, if the Democrats win back the House and Trump also wins, I will give you odds as to how long it will take for DJT to be impeached a third time. Less than a month is my guess.
Once again, and realizing that some readers will ignore this, I want neither Trump nor Biden to be our next President. It's not just that Trump is flawed. That much is true. It's that his opponent is just as flawed.
AzWm
Last I checked Biden wasn't personally charged with 88 criminal offenses in four criminal cases. But yes, please tell me more about how similarly flawed they are
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Post by AztecWilliam on Apr 3, 2024 15:41:43 GMT -8
Seriously? Yes, I would put it past him. To even hint at such a possibility is evidence at how divided this country is. To half, Trump is a hero and to the other half he is Adolf Hitler. There has never, ever been such a split in the electorate.
Let's for a moment decide that Trump would try to become a Hitler-like dictator at the end of a second term. There are many, many ways that such a move would be thwarted in a country with over two centuries of strong constitutional representative government. This is not the weak Wiemar government of 1933. ... even moderates disliked it and extremists on both the left and right loathed it, a situation often referred to as a "democracy without democrats". Germany had limited democratic traditions, and Weimar democracy was widely seen as chaotic.
Here's a question. Why did Trump not try to seize power by force in 2021? No, I'm not talking about the January 6th incident. I'm talking about declaring martial law and ordering the U.S. Army to take charge in Washington, DC. That's what a true Hitler would have done. As bad as Trump is in many ways, doing that would be way beyond what he had in mind.
Oh, well, what's the use. To many, Donald Trump IS an American Hitler. I am surprised that some on the Left have not called for his execution. Or has that been suggested and I just missed it.
I will answer my own question.
First, in general, the Left would go absolutely ape-$#!+ crazy. Honeymoon for a new POTUS? CNN, MSNBC, and the major networks would 24/7 with programs devoted to how Democracy in the USA is on the brink of collapse.
Second, if the Democrats win back the House and Trump also wins, I will give you odds as to how long it will take for DJT to be impeached a third time. Less than a month is my guess.
Once again, and realizing that some readers will ignore this, I want neither Trump nor Biden to be our next President. It's not just that Trump is flawed. That much is true. It's that his opponent is just as flawed.
AzWm
I assume you were alive three years ago. We already saw this happen - He lost the election, he knew he lost and he still tried to have the election overturned through violent force. He's threatened to terminate the Constitution. He's threatened mass deportations. The ridiculous oversimplifying you're doing here serves nobody. To your point about why didn't Trump declare martial law and bring in the military? He wanted to. www.google.com/amp/s/www.forbes.com/sites/nicholasreimann/2020/12/19/trump-reportedly-asked-advisors-about-deploying-military-to-overturn-election/amp/So, no, it wasn't "way beyond what he had in mind." Here's Michael Flynn talking about it on live television. The ungodly level of pandering here lies second to only your misunderstanding of basic events and the pathetic false equivalences you're generating are nearly as bad. "I'm going to spend multiple paragraphs disclosing false information about how Trump really isn't *that* bad and then say at the end both candidates are the same and I support neither." No. I give up. You win. Trump is the absolutely worst human being ever to draw breath!
Look, this is getting ridiculous. Here I am, a person who has registered Libertarian and voted as such every election (except '88) beginning in 1976. Did not support or vote for Trump both times. My opinion of the man was low before Jan. 6th and has gone way, way down since then. He is a blight on the political landscape and has done a lot to cripple the multiple party system in this country.
I do not think he will win in November. However, were he to win, we would survive his second presidency. That's how strong our institutions are in my opinion.
I wonder whether you agree that we would survive a second Trump presidency. Put another way, if he wins, will you accept the will of the voters? And I wonder what you think of people who vote for Trump.
AzWm
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Post by uwphoto on Apr 3, 2024 15:51:12 GMT -8
I assume you were alive three years ago. We already saw this happen - He lost the election, he knew he lost and he still tried to have the election overturned through violent force. He's threatened to terminate the Constitution. He's threatened mass deportations. The ridiculous oversimplifying you're doing here serves nobody. To your point about why didn't Trump declare martial law and bring in the military? He wanted to. www.google.com/amp/s/www.forbes.com/sites/nicholasreimann/2020/12/19/trump-reportedly-asked-advisors-about-deploying-military-to-overturn-election/amp/So, no, it wasn't "way beyond what he had in mind." Here's Michael Flynn talking about it on live television. The ungodly level of pandering here lies second to only your misunderstanding of basic events and the pathetic false equivalences you're generating are nearly as bad. "I'm going to spend multiple paragraphs disclosing false information about how Trump really isn't *that* bad and then say at the end both candidates are the same and I support neither." No. I give up. You win. Trump is the absolutely worst human being ever to draw breath!
Look, this is getting ridiculous. Here I am, a person who has registered Libertarian and voted as such every election (except '88) beginning in 1976. Did not support or vote for Trump both times. My opinion of the man was low before Jan. 6th and has gone way, way down since then. He is a blight on the political landscape and has done a lot to cripple the multiple party system in this country.
I do not think he will win in November. However, were he to win, we would survive his second presidency. That's how strong our institutions are in my opinion.
I wonder whether you agree that we would survive a second Trump presidency. Put another way, if he wins, will you accept the will of the voters? And I wonder what you think of people who vote for Trump.
AzWm
chiming in....no, we will attack the Capitol Building!! #2 listen to Rush (RIP)...and watch Jerry Springer.
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Post by aztecryan on Apr 3, 2024 16:13:05 GMT -8
I assume you were alive three years ago. We already saw this happen - He lost the election, he knew he lost and he still tried to have the election overturned through violent force. He's threatened to terminate the Constitution. He's threatened mass deportations. The ridiculous oversimplifying you're doing here serves nobody. To your point about why didn't Trump declare martial law and bring in the military? He wanted to. www.google.com/amp/s/www.forbes.com/sites/nicholasreimann/2020/12/19/trump-reportedly-asked-advisors-about-deploying-military-to-overturn-election/amp/So, no, it wasn't "way beyond what he had in mind." Here's Michael Flynn talking about it on live television. The ungodly level of pandering here lies second to only your misunderstanding of basic events and the pathetic false equivalences you're generating are nearly as bad. "I'm going to spend multiple paragraphs disclosing false information about how Trump really isn't *that* bad and then say at the end both candidates are the same and I support neither." No. I give up. You win. Trump is the absolutely worst human being ever to draw breath!
Look, this is getting ridiculous. Here I am, a person who has registered Libertarian and voted as such every election (except '88) beginning in 1976. Did not support or vote for Trump both times. My opinion of the man was low before Jan. 6th and has gone way, way down since then. He is a blight on the political landscape and has done a lot to cripple the multiple party system in this country.
I do not think he will win in November. However, were he to win, we would survive his second presidency. That's how strong our institutions are in my opinion.
I wonder whether you agree that we would survive a second Trump presidency. Put another way, if he wins, will you accept the will of the voters? And I wonder what you think of people who vote for Trump.
AzWm
The only thing that's ridiculous is your over the top melodrama. You were shown direct evidence contrary to your assertion....and you immediately deflect to semantics and hyperbole. Simple fact: Trump wanted to use the military to force swing states to "re-run" the election to favor him. That's dictator behavior, point blank. It's something that should terrify the average human. Combine that with what he's done to endanger national security and that he will soon regain access to intelligence briefings? Terrifying. I don't care if you're a Libertarian, a Marxist or anything in between. Common sense tells me that when a candidate of ANY party wants to use strongarm tactics to change the result of an election....that's a major problem. Of course we would survive a second Trump term, the country would still exist in four years. That's not the point (which should be obvious?) that's being made. The damage done to our institutions would be severe. Congress would degrade further than it already has. Extremism on the Supreme Court would continue to expand. Immigrants would be denied civil rights. Abortion would be criminalized. My opinion of Trump voters isn't relevant. Of course I will accept the results of the election, provided Trump doesn't receive outside help (which is dubious at this point, at best.) You're looking at the trees and losing the forest here.
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Post by aztecryan on Apr 3, 2024 16:20:12 GMT -8
I assume you were alive three years ago. We already saw this happen - He lost the election, he knew he lost and he still tried to have the election overturned through violent force. He's threatened to terminate the Constitution. He's threatened mass deportations. The ridiculous oversimplifying you're doing here serves nobody. To your point about why didn't Trump declare martial law and bring in the military? He wanted to. www.google.com/amp/s/www.forbes.com/sites/nicholasreimann/2020/12/19/trump-reportedly-asked-advisors-about-deploying-military-to-overturn-election/amp/So, no, it wasn't "way beyond what he had in mind." Here's Michael Flynn talking about it on live television. The ungodly level of pandering here lies second to only your misunderstanding of basic events and the pathetic false equivalences you're generating are nearly as bad. "I'm going to spend multiple paragraphs disclosing false information about how Trump really isn't *that* bad and then say at the end both candidates are the same and I support neither." No. I give up. You win. Trump is the absolutely worst human being ever to draw breath!
Look, this is getting ridiculous. Here I am, a person who has registered Libertarian and voted as such every election (except '88) beginning in 1976. Did not support or vote for Trump both times. My opinion of the man was low before Jan. 6th and has gone way, way down since then. He is a blight on the political landscape and has done a lot to cripple the multiple party system in this country.
I do not think he will win in November. However, were he to win, we would survive his second presidency. That's how strong our institutions are in my opinion.
I wonder whether you agree that we would survive a second Trump presidency. Put another way, if he wins, will you accept the will of the voters? And I wonder what you think of people who vote for Trump.
AzWm
People with this perspective fail to grasp the complexities of January 6th. January 6th wasn't just a random campaign rally gone awry. It was a pre-planned, coordinated, multi-week effort from a host of bad actors to destabilize and undermine election process and protocol. Meetings were held in hotel rooms. Members of Congress were heavily involved, some even on the ground. Security measures were removed. There was one goal: Delay, disrupt or invalidate the certification of votes and have Donald Trump remain in office. The fact it ultimately failed doesn't matter, the fact it happened at all does.
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Post by Fishn'Aztec on Apr 3, 2024 19:19:09 GMT -8
Warren Zevon said it best: "Send lawyers, guns and money the sh%t has hit the fan!
Head for Richmond Beach, B.C.
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Post by johneaztec on Apr 3, 2024 21:01:48 GMT -8
I'm going to move out of the country like a lot of the celebrity's said they would in 2016, but failed to follow through. Ha!!!
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Post by AztecWilliam on Apr 4, 2024 12:14:23 GMT -8
Ryan said . . .
To your point about why didn't Trump declare martial law and bring in the military? He wanted to.
Wanted to, maybe, but in fact he did NOT. Why did he not call in the military? I will suggest two possibilities.
1. His respect for the traditions and institutions of the U.S.A. were so strong that he could not actually take such an action. Yes, I can hear you laughing at such a thought, since everyone knows that he has no such respect. (Well, you really do believe that, right?)
2. He knew he could not get away with it. Do you really think that those in charge of the armed forces would just go along with such an order? But it never came close to that possibility.
I think the critical difference between you and me is that I have a much higher opinion of the solidity of American institutions. In a previous post I commented on the differences between 1933 Germany and contemporary America. Those differences are critical to understanding why National Socialism came into power then and why a similar takeover in the United States is impossible here.
As much as Trump might want to seize power in a coup, my considered opinion is that (A) it would not work, and (B) he is almost certainly smart enough to realize that it would not.
In any event, I will repeat that however bad Donald Trump might be in a second term, this country can and will survive such a challenge.
AzWm
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Post by AztecWilliam on Apr 4, 2024 12:30:29 GMT -8
Ryan said . . .
People with this perspective fail to grasp the complexities of January 6th. January 6th wasn't just a random campaign rally gone awry. It was a pre-planned, coordinated, multi-week effort from a host of bad actors to destabilize and undermine election process and protocol. Meetings were held in hotel rooms. Members of Congress were heavily involved, some even on the ground. Security measures were removed. There was one goal: Delay, disrupt or invalidate the certification of votes and have Donald Trump remain in office. The fact it ultimately failed doesn't matter, the fact it happened at all does.
I see. Well, I'm sure you can identify which members of Congress were involved. I think it is your solemn duty to inform the DOJ which members of Congress are traitors. Since the DOJ is busy putting Jan. 6th offenders in jail, I'm sure it would waste no time in bringing them to justice.
By the way, it sure as hell DOES make a difference that the efforts of the Jan. 6 miscreants failed. It was ALWAYS going to fail! It proves my contention that this country is immune to the find of coup that has plagued so many counties over the years.
AzWm
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Post by aztecryan on Apr 4, 2024 12:43:26 GMT -8
Ryan said . . .
To your point about why didn't Trump declare martial law and bring in the military? He wanted to.
Wanted to, maybe, but in fact he did NOT. Why did he not call in the military? I will suggest two possibilities.
1. His respect for the traditions and institutions of the U.S.A. were so strong that he could not actually take such an action. Yes, I can hear you laughing at such a thought, since everyone knows that he has no such respect. (Well, you really do believe that, right?)
2. He knew he could not get away with it. Do you really think that those in charge of the armed forces would just go along with such an order? But it never came close to that possibility.
I think the critical difference between you and me is that I have a much higher opinion of the solidity of American institutions. In a previous post I commented on the differences between 1933 Germany and contemporary America. Those differences are critical to understanding why National Socialism came into power then and why a similar takeover in the United States is impossible here.
As much as Trump might want to seize power in a coup, my considered opinion is that (A) it would not work, and (B) he is almost certainly smart enough to realize that it would not.
In any event, I will repeat that however bad Donald Trump might be in a second term, this country can and will survive such a challenge.
AzWm If you bothered to read the article that was posted, it will tell you why Trump didn't call the military in. But, yes, assume for just a second that his respect for tradition and institution was so strong, he couldn't bring himself to do it. This is the same guy who fired multiple IG's who didn't adhere to his standard, the same guy who shredded the impartiality of the AG's office, the same guy who denigrated the military on multiple occasions, mocked POW's and oh, yeah, tried to subvert an election through a coordinated assault on the Capitol. Talk about respect for institutions... The critical difference between you and me is I have what's called "common sense." January 6th, for example. Your argument clearly is that because the military wasn't called in, it diminishes the seriousness and magnitude of the event itself. "The terrorists didn't ultimately succeed, so it's alright." This is, of course, insanely naive and silly. The fact that January 6th was able to take place *at all* is what's critically important. A pre-planned, multi-pronged, concentrated effort where multiple people died because a tyrannical bully couldn't accept the fact he lost an election. I don't need a World War II lecture, I'm well aware of history. We just don't fundamentally agree that "this can't possibly become Nazi Germany" is the valued point here. The country "surviving" isn't the point, either. The long-lasting institutional damage from a malignant narcissist who literally got people KILLED (in more ways than one) IS the point. The mere fact we have a candidate running for the presidency who is under active indictment for stealing classified intelligence IS the point.
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Post by aztecryan on Apr 4, 2024 12:53:42 GMT -8
Ryan said . . .
People with this perspective fail to grasp the complexities of January 6th. January 6th wasn't just a random campaign rally gone awry. It was a pre-planned, coordinated, multi-week effort from a host of bad actors to destabilize and undermine election process and protocol. Meetings were held in hotel rooms. Members of Congress were heavily involved, some even on the ground. Security measures were removed. There was one goal: Delay, disrupt or invalidate the certification of votes and have Donald Trump remain in office. The fact it ultimately failed doesn't matter, the fact it happened at all does.
I see. Well, I'm sure you can identify which members of Congress were involved. I think it is your solemn duty to inform the DOJ which members of Congress are traitors. Since the DOJ is busy putting Jan. 6th offenders in jail, I'm sure it would waste no time in bringing them to justice.
By the way, it sure as hell DOES make a difference that the efforts of the Jan. 6 miscreants failed. It was ALWAYS going to fail! It proves my contention that this country is immune to the find of coup that has plagued so many counties over the years.
AzWm Ah, yes, sarcasm. The junction point where faithful argument and discourse is dead because there's no valid point to make. I'm sure I can identify members who were involved, most of it is public information. Take Paul Gosar of Arizona, for example. Here he is opining about nonchalantly having the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs hanged: www.google.com/amp/s/thehill.com/homenews/house/4221450-gosar-milley-hung/amp/Let's stay in Arizona. How about Andy Biggs? Here's the coordinator of "Stop the Steal" pointing to Biggs as the main organizer of the January 6th rally. theintercept.com/2021/01/11/capitol-plot-andy-biggs-paul-gosar/The list goes on: Boebert, Gomert, Jordan, Greene, Perry and so on. I can only laugh because you answer complexity with simplicity, like the DOJ is going to swoop in and arrest sitting members of Congress. It's not that simple, nor will it ever be. Due process is still a thing, as is protection under the Constitution. And we'll disagree on your last point as well. Just because an event fails to achieve 100% success doesn't diminish the overarching concept that our democracy was threatened in ways we hadn't seen in 200 years.
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Post by aztecryan on Apr 4, 2024 13:20:13 GMT -8
Ryan said . . .
People with this perspective fail to grasp the complexities of January 6th. January 6th wasn't just a random campaign rally gone awry. It was a pre-planned, coordinated, multi-week effort from a host of bad actors to destabilize and undermine election process and protocol. Meetings were held in hotel rooms. Members of Congress were heavily involved, some even on the ground. Security measures were removed. There was one goal: Delay, disrupt or invalidate the certification of votes and have Donald Trump remain in office. The fact it ultimately failed doesn't matter, the fact it happened at all does.
I see. Well, I'm sure you can identify which members of Congress were involved. I think it is your solemn duty to inform the DOJ which members of Congress are traitors. Since the DOJ is busy putting Jan. 6th offenders in jail, I'm sure it would waste no time in bringing them to justice.
By the way, it sure as hell DOES make a difference that the efforts of the Jan. 6 miscreants failed. It was ALWAYS going to fail! It proves my contention that this country is immune to the find of coup that has plagued so many counties over the years.
AzWm Ironically, both Gosar and Biggs have been issued subpoenas.
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Post by AztecWilliam on Apr 4, 2024 14:24:55 GMT -8
Ryan said . . .
To your point about why didn't Trump declare martial law and bring in the military? He wanted to.
Wanted to, maybe, but in fact he did NOT. Why did he not call in the military? I will suggest two possibilities.
1. His respect for the traditions and institutions of the U.S.A. were so strong that he could not actually take such an action. Yes, I can hear you laughing at such a thought, since everyone knows that he has no such respect. (Well, you really do believe that, right?)
2. He knew he could not get away with it. Do you really think that those in charge of the armed forces would just go along with such an order? But it never came close to that possibility.
I think the critical difference between you and me is that I have a much higher opinion of the solidity of American institutions. In a previous post I commented on the differences between 1933 Germany and contemporary America. Those differences are critical to understanding why National Socialism came into power then and why a similar takeover in the United States is impossible here.
As much as Trump might want to seize power in a coup, my considered opinion is that (A) it would not work, and (B) he is almost certainly smart enough to realize that it would not.
In any event, I will repeat that however bad Donald Trump might be in a second term, this country can and will survive such a challenge.
AzWm If you bothered to read the article that was posted, it will tell you why Trump didn't call the military in. But, yes, assume for just a second that his respect for tradition and institution was so strong, he couldn't bring himself to do it. This is the same guy who fired multiple IG's who didn't adhere to his standard, the same guy who shredded the impartiality of the AG's office, the same guy who denigrated the military on multiple occasions, mocked POW's and oh, yeah, tried to subvert an election through a coordinated assault on the Capitol. Talk about respect for institutions...
The critical difference between you and me is I have what's called "common sense." January 6th, for example. Your argument clearly is that because the military wasn't called in, it diminishes the seriousness and magnitude of the event itself. "The terrorists didn't ultimately succeed, so it's alright." This is, of course, insanely naive and silly. The fact that January 6th was able to take place *at all* is what's critically important. A pre-planned, multi-pronged, concentrated effort where multiple people died because a tyrannical bully couldn't accept the fact he lost an election.
I don't need a World War II lecture, I'm well aware of history. We just don't fundamentally agree that "this can't possibly become Nazi Germany" is the valued point here. The country "surviving" isn't the point, either. The long-lasting institutional damage from a malignant narcissist who literally got people KILLED (in more ways than one) IS the point. The mere fact we have a candidate running for the presidency who is under active indictment for stealing classified intelligence IS the point.
Why the quotes? I did not write the quoted statement, so the quotes are misleading. As a matter of fact, I do not think the Jan. 6 incident was alright. Far from it.
With respect to Jan. 6th, I do not think any institutional damage was done. On the contrary, I think our institutions are stronger now than before. I would say that any new attempt to disrupt congressional proceedings would be met with effective armed response.
AzWm
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Post by aztecryan on Apr 4, 2024 14:35:20 GMT -8
If you bothered to read the article that was posted, it will tell you why Trump didn't call the military in. But, yes, assume for just a second that his respect for tradition and institution was so strong, he couldn't bring himself to do it. This is the same guy who fired multiple IG's who didn't adhere to his standard, the same guy who shredded the impartiality of the AG's office, the same guy who denigrated the military on multiple occasions, mocked POW's and oh, yeah, tried to subvert an election through a coordinated assault on the Capitol. Talk about respect for institutions...
The critical difference between you and me is I have what's called "common sense." January 6th, for example. Your argument clearly is that because the military wasn't called in, it diminishes the seriousness and magnitude of the event itself. "The terrorists didn't ultimately succeed, so it's alright." This is, of course, insanely naive and silly. The fact that January 6th was able to take place *at all* is what's critically important. A pre-planned, multi-pronged, concentrated effort where multiple people died because a tyrannical bully couldn't accept the fact he lost an election.
I don't need a World War II lecture, I'm well aware of history. We just don't fundamentally agree that "this can't possibly become Nazi Germany" is the valued point here. The country "surviving" isn't the point, either. The long-lasting institutional damage from a malignant narcissist who literally got people KILLED (in more ways than one) IS the point. The mere fact we have a candidate running for the presidency who is under active indictment for stealing classified intelligence IS the point.
Why the quotes? I did not write the quoted statement, so the quotes are misleading. As a matter of fact, I do not think the Jan. 6 incident was alright. Far from it.
With respect to Jan. 6th, I do not think any institutional damage was done. On the contrary, I think our institutions are stronger now than before. I would say that any new attempt to disrupt congressional proceedings would be met with effective armed response.
AzWm
Just use the quote feature? You don't need to repeat what I said, it's already there. My quotes are paraphrasing what I believe your assertion to be. In this case, diminishing the seriousness of what took place. No institutional damage took place? You are normalizing a coordinated effort to overturn an election by force, something we have never seen in modern history. You are normalizing an incident where the Vice President was 40 feet away from potentially being assassinated. Members of Congress (an institution, you could say) have radicalized that body to norms we have never seen before. (How is someone this in the dark about such an important issue?) Now, we have an information divide where one side has undermined public trust so heavily, you can't convince them Trump did anything nefarious. That's DAMAGE. An effective armed response? Who controls the DC National Guard? You cannot be this naive.
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