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Post by aztecryan on Aug 7, 2024 17:14:35 GMT -8
That's my point personified. If you call out Israel, you're a "Hamas apologist." No. Facts are facts. Learn some actual nuance, please. There's telling it like it is ...and there is pontificating and intellectualizing every subject to death. There is room for both. I will not change my style. Then enjoy ostracizing actual arguments in favor of being closeminded. But please do not refer to me as a Hamas apologist. I am not.
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Post by uwphoto on Aug 7, 2024 17:30:41 GMT -8
There's telling it like it is ...and there is pontificating and intellectualizing every subject to death. There is room for both. I will not change my style. Then enjoy ostracizing actual arguments in favor of being closeminded. But please do not refer to me as a Hamas apologist. I am not. Didn't say you were, but there at least 1 or 2.
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Post by aztecryan on Aug 7, 2024 17:33:33 GMT -8
Then enjoy ostracizing actual arguments in favor of being closeminded. But please do not refer to me as a Hamas apologist. I am not. Didn't say you were, but there at least 1 or 2. You essentially did. Rather than address the crux of the argument, you went straight to that. Shows me a lack of good faith. I have zero issue with Israel defending itself.
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Post by sdsuball on Aug 7, 2024 17:37:56 GMT -8
US needs to withdraw military support for warmongering Netanyahu. I'm not willing to finance a war between Israel and Iran. Killing one of the diplomats engaging in peace talks shows that Israel has no interest in a peace treaty. It's unfortunate, but I don't believe peace is possible until the US withdraws military support for Israel. So, it's all Israel's fault? There will never be peace in that region so long as one side is intent on exterminating the other side. You do recognize that, don't you? What do you think "From the River to Sea" means if not the extermination of the state of Israel?
There has never a moment in the past 70plus years in which peace could not have been achieved had the Muslims in that area recognized Israel's right to exist. I don't say that the details of such a peace would not have required a lot of hard negotiating and compromise, but it could have been done.
Once again, one cannot honestly discuss this issue without recognizing that many Muslims in the Levant seek the destruction of Israel. On the other hand, there are Muslim countries in the region who have made their peace with Israel. This includes some that, more than once, were literally at war with Isael (e.g., Egypt, Jordan).
The problem with demanding From the River to the Sea is that legitimate Muslim complaints can never be heard.
I think it is imperative to recognize that the main threat to Israel is Iran, a nation whose official policy is Death to Israel. But there is something that might be wise for Iran to keep in mind. Should the survival of Israel be literally at stake, the Israelis have one means of turning the situation around.
AzWmIsrael is exterminating the Palestinian people as we speak. Why fund genocide?
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Post by AztecWilliam on Aug 8, 2024 11:54:25 GMT -8
So, it's all Israel's fault? There will never be peace in that region so long as one side is intent on exterminating the other side. You do recognize that, don't you? What do you think "From the River to Sea" means if not the extermination of the state of Israel?
There has never a moment in the past 70plus years in which peace could not have been achieved had the Muslims in that area recognized Israel's right to exist. I don't say that the details of such a peace would not have required a lot of hard negotiating and compromise, but it could have been done.
Once again, one cannot honestly discuss this issue without recognizing that many Muslims in the Levant seek the destruction of Israel. On the other hand, there are Muslim countries in the region who have made their peace with Israel. This includes some that, more than once, were literally at war with Isael (e.g., Egypt, Jordan).
The problem with demanding From the River to the Sea is that legitimate Muslim complaints can never be heard.
I think it is imperative to recognize that the main threat to Israel is Iran, a nation whose official policy is Death to Israel. But there is something that might be wise for Iran to keep in mind. Should the survival of Israel be literally at stake, the Israelis have one means of turning the situation around.
AzWm Israel is exterminating the Palestinian people as we speak. Why fund genocide? Your claim is absurd. It's like saying that the Allies were trying to exterminate the Germans who lived in the cities they were bombing in WWII. Did German civilians die in those bombings? Yes, they did by the thousands. Same for our bombing of Japanese cities. There were two differences between those deaths and those in Gaza.
First, it was the Germans who started the war. If Hitler had not started WWII, those bombing would not have taken place. Hamas started this war with one of the most ruthless attacks on civilians since WWII. Killing civilians was THE whole point of their attack. What was Israel supposed to do, send a harshly worded letter to the United Nations?
Second, Hamburg, Cologne, Berlin, etc. were legitimate military targets. The whole purpose of the Oct. 7th attack was to spread terror by killing as many Jews as possible in the most horrific way possible.
Why am I even bothering with your post? It's like asking why we attacked Japanese targets post Dec. 7th.
AzWm
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Post by sdsuball on Aug 8, 2024 17:25:06 GMT -8
Israel is exterminating the Palestinian people as we speak. Why fund genocide? Your claim is absurd. It's like saying that the Allies were trying to exterminate the Germans who lived in the cities they were bombing in WWII. Did German civilians die in those bombings? Yes, they did by the thousands. Same for our bombing of Japanese cities. There were two differences between those deaths and those in Gaza.
First, it was the Germans who started the war. If Hitler had not started WWII, those bombing would not have taken place. Hamas started this war with one of the most ruthless attacks on civilians since WWII. Killing civilians was THE whole point of their attack. What was Israel supposed to do, send a harshly worded letter to the United Nations?
Second, Hamburg, Cologne, Berlin, etc. were legitimate military targets. The whole purpose of the Oct. 7th attack was to spread terror by killing as many Jews as possible in the most horrific way possible.
Why am I even bothering with your post? It's like asking why we attacked Japanese targets post Dec. 7th.
AzWm
How is it absurd? Please read about the Nakba, the ethnic cleansing of Palestinians that has been carried out by Israel and Israel's settlers since 1948. Israel has been the aggressor for almost a century. Regarding the current GAZA war: Is bombing refugee camps in Gaza going after military targets? Is shooting mortars at Palestinians fishing on the beach going after military targets? Is murdering over 100 journalists going after military targets? Is starving civilians going after military targets? Is raping Palestinians, forcing Palestinians to defecate and urinate on themselves, starving Palestinians in detention camps, going after military targets? Is murdering Palestinians in hospitals going after military targets? Is exhuming Palestinian graves going after military targets? Is stealing Palestinian organs from the recently deceased without relatives consent going after military targets? Is leveling Palestinian universities and hospitals going after military targets? Is shooting Palestinians, then waiting for paramedics to come and killing the paramedics, going after military targets? Is shooting at Palestinian children and pregnant women going after military targets? Is defecating in and destroying Palestinian wells and water treatment facilities going after military targets?
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Post by AztecWilliam on Aug 8, 2024 20:13:04 GMT -8
Your claim is absurd. It's like saying that the Allies were trying to exterminate the Germans who lived in the cities they were bombing in WWII. Did German civilians die in those bombings? Yes, they did by the thousands. Same for our bombing of Japanese cities. There were two differences between those deaths and those in Gaza.
First, it was the Germans who started the war. If Hitler had not started WWII, those bombing would not have taken place. Hamas started this war with one of the most ruthless attacks on civilians since WWII. Killing civilians was THE whole point of their attack. What was Israel supposed to do, send a harshly worded letter to the United Nations?
Second, Hamburg, Cologne, Berlin, etc. were legitimate military targets. The whole purpose of the Oct. 7th attack was to spread terror by killing as many Jews as possible in the most horrific way possible.
Why am I even bothering with your post? It's like asking why we attacked Japanese targets post Dec. 7th.
AzWm
How is it absurd? Please read about the Nakba, the ethnic cleansing of Palestinians that has been carried out by Israel and Israel's settlers since 1948. Israel has been the aggressor for almost a century. Regarding the current GAZA war: Is bombing refugee camps in Gaza going after military targets? Is shooting mortars at Palestinians fishing on the beach going after military targets? Is murdering over 100 journalists going after military targets? Is starving civilians going after military targets? Is raping Palestinians, forcing Palestinians to defecate and urinate on themselves, starving Palestinians in detention camps, going after military targets? Is murdering Palestinians in hospitals going after military targets? Is exhuming Palestinian graves going after military targets? Is stealing Palestinian organs from the recently deceased without relatives consent going after military targets? Is leveling Palestinian universities and hospitals going after military targets? Is shooting Palestinians, then waiting for paramedics to come and killing the paramedics, going after military targets? Is shooting at Palestinian children and pregnant women going after military targets? Is defecating in and destroying Palestinian wells and water treatment facilities going after military targets? Most of those charges are complete lies. Just what sources do you offer to substantiate those charges?
AzWm
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Post by aztecryan on Aug 8, 2024 20:44:43 GMT -8
How is it absurd? Please read about the Nakba, the ethnic cleansing of Palestinians that has been carried out by Israel and Israel's settlers since 1948. Israel has been the aggressor for almost a century. Regarding the current GAZA war: Is bombing refugee camps in Gaza going after military targets? Is shooting mortars at Palestinians fishing on the beach going after military targets? Is murdering over 100 journalists going after military targets? Is starving civilians going after military targets? Is raping Palestinians, forcing Palestinians to defecate and urinate on themselves, starving Palestinians in detention camps, going after military targets? Is murdering Palestinians in hospitals going after military targets? Is exhuming Palestinian graves going after military targets? Is stealing Palestinian organs from the recently deceased without relatives consent going after military targets? Is leveling Palestinian universities and hospitals going after military targets? Is shooting Palestinians, then waiting for paramedics to come and killing the paramedics, going after military targets? Is shooting at Palestinian children and pregnant women going after military targets? Is defecating in and destroying Palestinian wells and water treatment facilities going after military targets? Most of those charges are complete lies. Just what sources do you offer to substantiate those charges?
AzWm
"Most of those charges are complete lies." "Help me prove those charges are not complete lies." You have access to the Internet, I would assume.
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Post by aztecryan on Aug 8, 2024 20:48:02 GMT -8
How is it absurd? Please read about the Nakba, the ethnic cleansing of Palestinians that has been carried out by Israel and Israel's settlers since 1948. Israel has been the aggressor for almost a century. Regarding the current GAZA war: Is bombing refugee camps in Gaza going after military targets? Is shooting mortars at Palestinians fishing on the beach going after military targets? Is murdering over 100 journalists going after military targets? Is starving civilians going after military targets? Is raping Palestinians, forcing Palestinians to defecate and urinate on themselves, starving Palestinians in detention camps, going after military targets? Is murdering Palestinians in hospitals going after military targets? Is exhuming Palestinian graves going after military targets? Is stealing Palestinian organs from the recently deceased without relatives consent going after military targets? Is leveling Palestinian universities and hospitals going after military targets? Is shooting Palestinians, then waiting for paramedics to come and killing the paramedics, going after military targets? Is shooting at Palestinian children and pregnant women going after military targets? Is defecating in and destroying Palestinian wells and water treatment facilities going after military targets? Most of those charges are complete lies. Just what sources do you offer to substantiate those charges?
AzWm
Here's one. We can call it a story in two parts. Part one: Israel told civilians to move to Rafah, as a "safe haven." www.cbc.ca/news/world/gazans-in-rafah-fear-ground-offensive-1.7115880Part two: Israel bombs Rafah and kills civilians. apnews.com/article/israel-palestinians-hamas-war-news-06-20-2024-97701dddad7d558dc2ce92bf43016a95
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Post by AztecWilliam on Aug 9, 2024 11:05:01 GMT -8
Most of those charges are complete lies. Just what sources do you offer to substantiate those charges?
AzWm
"Most of those charges are complete lies." "Help me prove those charges are not complete lies." You have access to the Internet, I would assume. That is NOT an answer to my question. As for the Internet, one can find claims of everything from the Earth is flat to the claim that a body double has replaced President Joe Biden. Your failure to back up those claims tells me (as if I needed a reason anyway) that the claims of Israeli terrorism as totally false.
What I really want to know is why you are so willing to believe the worst about Israel. That is not to say that Israel is beyond reproach. But if one is going to condemn that country, one has to substantiate those claims.
AzWm
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Post by aztecryan on Aug 9, 2024 11:17:12 GMT -8
"Most of those charges are complete lies." "Help me prove those charges are not complete lies." You have access to the Internet, I would assume. That is NOT an answer to my question. As for the Internet, one can find claims of everything from the Earth is flat to the claim that a body double has replaced President Joe Biden. Your failure to back up those claims tells me (as if I needed a reason anyway) that the claims of Israeli terrorism as totally false.
What I really want to know is why you are so willing to believe the worst about Israel. That is not to say that Israel is beyond reproach. But if one is going to condemn that country, one has to substantiate those claims.
AzWm
Maybe, just maybe, people are tiring of your constant manipulation, agenda and lack of truth telling? I don't feel the need to prove anything to you, personally. You didn't even know Netanyahu funded Hamas, so clearly you're not all that up to speed on even the basics here. I did substantiate one of them, you completely ignored it. Wonder why that is. I have no issue with Israel defending itself, as I've said repeatedly. Indiscriminately bombing innocent civilians, though, is not that.
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Post by bnastyaztecs on Aug 9, 2024 11:29:55 GMT -8
"Most of those charges are complete lies." "Help me prove those charges are not complete lies." You have access to the Internet, I would assume. That is NOT an answer to my question. As for the Internet, one can find claims of everything from the Earth is flat to the claim that a body double has replaced President Joe Biden. Your failure to back up those claims tells me (as if I needed a reason anyway) that the claims of Israeli terrorism as totally false.
What I really want to know is why you are so willing to believe the worst about Israel. That is not to say that Israel is beyond reproach. But if one is going to condemn that country, one has to substantiate those claims.
AzWm
I'm more than sure the first 10-20 pgs of this thread debunks everything you've written and substantiates claims against Israel...so why rehash ignorance?
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Post by bnastyaztecs on Aug 9, 2024 11:55:04 GMT -8
"Most of those charges are complete lies." "Help me prove those charges are not complete lies." You have access to the Internet, I would assume. That is NOT an answer to my question. As for the Internet, one can find claims of everything from the Earth is flat to the claim that a body double has replaced President Joe Biden. Your failure to back up those claims tells me (as if I needed a reason anyway) that the claims of Israeli terrorism as totally false.
What I really want to know is why you are so willing to believe the worst about Israel. That is not to say that Israel is beyond reproach. But if one is going to condemn that country, one has to substantiate those claims.
AzWm
History of Israel-Palestine Conflictwww.youtube.com/watch?v=m19F4IHTVGcBlowback: How Israel Helped Create Hamaswww.youtube.com/watch?v=o7grSsuFSS0Hundreds of Palestinians Bury Toddler Killed by Israeli Forces6 Jun 2023 "Mohammed al-Tamimi was the youngest of the 27 Palestinian children killed in Gaza and the West Bank this year." "Mohammed was shot in the head, which ruptured his brain vessels. His death was announced on Monday, and his body was transferred to the Palestine Medical Complex. The Israeli army said on Monday that soldiers had “responded with live fire” following a shooting attack on Neveh Tzuf." www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/6/6/palestinians-mourn-two-year-old-toddler-killed-by-israeli-forcesAt Least 500 Killed in Israeli Airstrike on Gaza City Hospital, Gaza Health Ministry Says"An Israeli airstrike Tuesday hit a Gaza City hospital packed with wounded Palestinians and others seeking shelter, killing at least 500 people, the Gaza Health Ministry said. If confirmed, the attack would be by far the deadliest Israeli airstrike in five wars fought since 2008." "An airstrike in Deir al Balah reduced a house to rubble, killing nine members of the family living there. Three members of another family that had evacuated from Gaza City were killed in a neighboring home. The dead included one man and 11 women and children. Witnesses said there was no warning before the strike." "Israeli strikes have killed at least 2,778 people and wounded 9,700 others in Gaza, according to the Health Ministry. Nearly two-thirds of the dead were children, said Medhat Abbas, a Gaza Health Ministry official." www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/at-least-500-killed-in-israeli-airstrike-on-gaza-city-hospital-gaza-health-ministry-says/ar-AA1ilYCq?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=76e11dd576f7445580fc5c2d0db2eaaf&ei=17"The Israeli government’s systematic oppression in the Occupied Palestinian Territory, coupled with inhumane acts committed against Palestinians as part of a policy to maintain the domination by Jewish Israelis over Palestinians, amount to the crimes against humanity of apartheid and persecution, as Human Rights Watch previously found." "Israel has repeatedly carried out indiscriminate airstrikes that killed scores of civilians – wiping out entire families – and strikes that targeted civilians or civilian infrastructure, including destroying high-rise Gaza towers full of homes and businesses, with no evident military targets in the vicinity." www.hrw.org/news/2023/10/09/israel/palestine-devastating-civilian-toll-parties-flout-legal-obligations?gclid=Cj0KCQjwhL6pBhDjARIsAGx8D5-slMH8nCeaa8n0Skytm5ZSuUQfBgBjo6Sjp4NQZq3JVIHoyrWLpHoaAuP8EALw_wcBThen there is a case before the ICC: International Criminal CourtSituation in Palestine | Summary of Preliminary Examination Findings "In particular, as set out in the Prosecutor’s request pursuant to article 19(3) for a ruling on the Court’s territorial jurisdiction in Palestine, the Office has found that there is a reasonable basis to believe that, in the context of the 2014 hostilities in Gaza, members of the Israel Defense Forces (“IDF”) committed the war crimes of: intentionally launching disproportionate attacks in relation to at least three incidents which the Office has focussed on (article 8(2)(b)(iv)); wilful killing and wilfully causing serious injury to body or health (articles 8(2)(a)(i) and 8(2)(a)(iii), or article 8(2)(c)(i)); and intentionally directing an attack against objects or persons using the distinctive emblems of the Geneva Conventions (article 8(2)(b)(xxiv), or 8(2)(e)(ii))." www.icc-cpi.int/sites/default/files/itemsDocuments/210303-office-of-the-prosecutor-palestine-summary-findings-eng.pdfFirst Israel's spokesperson took credit on "X"/Twitter... pbs.twimg.com/media/F8rBXB7WEAABYPx?format=jpg&name=large Investigations Reveal Discrepancies in Israel’s Gaza Hospital Attack Claimswww.aljazeera.com/news/2023/10/20/what-have-open-source-videos-revealed-about-the-gaza-hospital-explosionOccupation In Palestine Is Unbearable, Says Former US President Obamawww.youtube.com/watch?v=57gSIu5C3-E
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Post by azson on Aug 9, 2024 13:48:20 GMT -8
How is it absurd? Please read about the Nakba, the ethnic cleansing of Palestinians that has been carried out by Israel and Israel's settlers since 1948. Israel has been the aggressor for almost a century. Regarding the current GAZA war: Is bombing refugee camps in Gaza going after military targets? Is shooting mortars at Palestinians fishing on the beach going after military targets? Is murdering over 100 journalists going after military targets? Is starving civilians going after military targets? Is raping Palestinians, forcing Palestinians to defecate and urinate on themselves, starving Palestinians in detention camps, going after military targets? Is murdering Palestinians in hospitals going after military targets? Is exhuming Palestinian graves going after military targets? Is stealing Palestinian organs from the recently deceased without relatives consent going after military targets? Is leveling Palestinian universities and hospitals going after military targets? Is shooting Palestinians, then waiting for paramedics to come and killing the paramedics, going after military targets? Is shooting at Palestinian children and pregnant women going after military targets? Is defecating in and destroying Palestinian wells and water treatment facilities going after military targets? Most of those charges are complete lies. Just what sources do you offer to substantiate those charges?
AzWm
Why would anyone spend the time sourcing when your M.O. is to just ignore inconvenient truths and start new threads?
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Post by AztecWilliam on Aug 9, 2024 17:09:39 GMT -8
That is NOT an answer to my question. As for the Internet, one can find claims of everything from the Earth is flat to the claim that a body double has replaced President Joe Biden. Your failure to back up those claims tells me (as if I needed a reason anyway) that the claims of Israeli terrorism as totally false.
What I really want to know is why you are so willing to believe the worst about Israel. That is not to say that Israel is beyond reproach. But if one is going to condemn that country, one has to substantiate those claims.
AzWm
History of Israel-Palestine Conflictwww.youtube.com/watch?v=m19F4IHTVGcBlowback: How Israel Helped Create Hamaswww.youtube.com/watch?v=o7grSsuFSS0Hundreds of Palestinians Bury Toddler Killed by Israeli Forces6 Jun 2023 "Mohammed al-Tamimi was the youngest of the 27 Palestinian children killed in Gaza and the West Bank this year." "Mohammed was shot in the head, which ruptured his brain vessels. His death was announced on Monday, and his body was transferred to the Palestine Medical Complex. The Israeli army said on Monday that soldiers had “responded with live fire” following a shooting attack on Neveh Tzuf." www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/6/6/palestinians-mourn-two-year-old-toddler-killed-by-israeli-forcesAt Least 500 Killed in Israeli Airstrike on Gaza City Hospital, Gaza Health Ministry Says"An Israeli airstrike Tuesday hit a Gaza City hospital packed with wounded Palestinians and others seeking shelter, killing at least 500 people, the Gaza Health Ministry said. If confirmed, the attack would be by far the deadliest Israeli airstrike in five wars fought since 2008." "An airstrike in Deir al Balah reduced a house to rubble, killing nine members of the family living there. Three members of another family that had evacuated from Gaza City were killed in a neighboring home. The dead included one man and 11 women and children. Witnesses said there was no warning before the strike." "Israeli strikes have killed at least 2,778 people and wounded 9,700 others in Gaza, according to the Health Ministry. Nearly two-thirds of the dead were children, said Medhat Abbas, a Gaza Health Ministry official." www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/at-least-500-killed-in-israeli-airstrike-on-gaza-city-hospital-gaza-health-ministry-says/ar-AA1ilYCq?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=76e11dd576f7445580fc5c2d0db2eaaf&ei=17"The Israeli government’s systematic oppression in the Occupied Palestinian Territory, coupled with inhumane acts committed against Palestinians as part of a policy to maintain the domination by Jewish Israelis over Palestinians, amount to the crimes against humanity of apartheid and persecution, as Human Rights Watch previously found." "Israel has repeatedly carried out indiscriminate airstrikes that killed scores of civilians – wiping out entire families – and strikes that targeted civilians or civilian infrastructure, including destroying high-rise Gaza towers full of homes and businesses, with no evident military targets in the vicinity." www.hrw.org/news/2023/10/09/israel/palestine-devastating-civilian-toll-parties-flout-legal-obligations?gclid=Cj0KCQjwhL6pBhDjARIsAGx8D5-slMH8nCeaa8n0Skytm5ZSuUQfBgBjo6Sjp4NQZq3JVIHoyrWLpHoaAuP8EALw_wcBThen there is a case before the ICC: International Criminal CourtSituation in Palestine | Summary of Preliminary Examination Findings "In particular, as set out in the Prosecutor’s request pursuant to article 19(3) for a ruling on the Court’s territorial jurisdiction in Palestine, the Office has found that there is a reasonable basis to believe that, in the context of the 2014 hostilities in Gaza, members of the Israel Defense Forces (“IDF”) committed the war crimes of: intentionally launching disproportionate attacks in relation to at least three incidents which the Office has focussed on (article 8(2)(b)(iv)); wilful killing and wilfully causing serious injury to body or health (articles 8(2)(a)(i) and 8(2)(a)(iii), or article 8(2)(c)(i)); and intentionally directing an attack against objects or persons using the distinctive emblems of the Geneva Conventions (article 8(2)(b)(xxiv), or 8(2)(e)(ii))." www.icc-cpi.int/sites/default/files/itemsDocuments/210303-office-of-the-prosecutor-palestine-summary-findings-eng.pdfFirst Israel's spokesperson took credit on "X"/Twitter... pbs.twimg.com/media/F8rBXB7WEAABYPx?format=jpg&name=large Investigations Reveal Discrepancies in Israel’s Gaza Hospital Attack Claimswww.aljazeera.com/news/2023/10/20/what-have-open-source-videos-revealed-about-the-gaza-hospital-explosionOccupation In Palestine Is Unbearable, Says Former US President Obamawww.youtube.com/watch?v=57gSIu5C3-E I don't have time to investigate all the anti-Israel claims you reference, but I do wish to comment on one or two.
As for hrw.org, this is from Wikipedia.
HRW has been accused of evidence-gathering bias because it is said to be "credulous of civilian witnesses in places like Gaza and Afghanistan" but "skeptical of anyone in a uniform."[16] Its founder, Robert Bernstein, accused the organization of poor research methods and relying on "witnesses whose stories cannot be verified and who may testify for political advantage or because they fear retaliation from their own rulers."[17] In October 2009, Bernstein said that the organization had lost critical perspective on events in the Middle East:[17] "[T]he region is populated by authoritarian regimes with appalling human rights records. Yet in recent years Human Rights Watch has written far more condemnations of Israel for violations of international law than of any other country in the region."
From camera.org
Unfortunately, the organization has a long history of anti-Israel agitation and propaganda, perhaps best illustrated by the facts about Joe Stork, who served for many years as HRW’s Deputy Director of Middle East issues. Before being hired by HRW, Stork openly supported Palestinian terror attacks against Jewish civilians, and opposed any and all peace treaties between Israel and Arab states.
Stork even traveled to Saddam Hussein’s Iraq for a conference on “Zionism and Racism.” His very appearance at a conference sponsored by the brutal regime of Saddam Hussein should have disqualified him from working for any human rights group, but apparently that’s not how HRW saw it.
Aljazeera.com? Seriously?
In short, the sources listed are dubious in terms of being fair to Israel.
I'm still curious to know what Israel should have done following the horrific attack of Oct.7th. By the way, the difference in the way Israel was portrayed when I was young (i.e., about 60 plus years ago) and now is stark. Books, documentaries, and movies (e.g. Gentleman's Agreement, Judgment at Nuremberg, Exodus, Cast a Giant Shadow) dealt with the incredibly inhumane treatment of Jews historically and, in the last of the cited films, the creation of Israel.
Much of that pro-Israel sentiment has been replaced by hatred of Israel and support for groups that openly seek the destruction of that nation. Quite a change. I hope I do not have to list the many terrorist attacks perpetrated by groups seeking the destruction of Israel. As one poster reminded me, "look it up the Internet."
I'll anticipate one criticism that is bound to be thrown at me. No, I am not unsympathetic regarding the Palestinians. My belief is that the vast majority of those tormented people would, if given a real chance, choose to live in peace with Israel. Living in peace does not mean the destruction of Israel, of course.
What is so ironic is that living in peace with the state of Israel would mean huge benefits to everyone concerned. I have never been to Israel, but everything I know about that country reveals that they have built a prosperous nation in, if you will forgive me, the middle of the desert. There is no reason why Palestinians could not enjoy the same kind of prosperity.
That will be possible only when the radical anti-Israel forces give up their desire to destroy their neighbors.
AzWm
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Post by aztecryan on Aug 9, 2024 17:30:22 GMT -8
History of Israel-Palestine Conflictwww.youtube.com/watch?v=m19F4IHTVGcBlowback: How Israel Helped Create Hamaswww.youtube.com/watch?v=o7grSsuFSS0Hundreds of Palestinians Bury Toddler Killed by Israeli Forces6 Jun 2023 "Mohammed al-Tamimi was the youngest of the 27 Palestinian children killed in Gaza and the West Bank this year." "Mohammed was shot in the head, which ruptured his brain vessels. His death was announced on Monday, and his body was transferred to the Palestine Medical Complex. The Israeli army said on Monday that soldiers had “responded with live fire” following a shooting attack on Neveh Tzuf." www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/6/6/palestinians-mourn-two-year-old-toddler-killed-by-israeli-forcesAt Least 500 Killed in Israeli Airstrike on Gaza City Hospital, Gaza Health Ministry Says"An Israeli airstrike Tuesday hit a Gaza City hospital packed with wounded Palestinians and others seeking shelter, killing at least 500 people, the Gaza Health Ministry said. If confirmed, the attack would be by far the deadliest Israeli airstrike in five wars fought since 2008." "An airstrike in Deir al Balah reduced a house to rubble, killing nine members of the family living there. Three members of another family that had evacuated from Gaza City were killed in a neighboring home. The dead included one man and 11 women and children. Witnesses said there was no warning before the strike." "Israeli strikes have killed at least 2,778 people and wounded 9,700 others in Gaza, according to the Health Ministry. Nearly two-thirds of the dead were children, said Medhat Abbas, a Gaza Health Ministry official." www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/at-least-500-killed-in-israeli-airstrike-on-gaza-city-hospital-gaza-health-ministry-says/ar-AA1ilYCq?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=76e11dd576f7445580fc5c2d0db2eaaf&ei=17"The Israeli government’s systematic oppression in the Occupied Palestinian Territory, coupled with inhumane acts committed against Palestinians as part of a policy to maintain the domination by Jewish Israelis over Palestinians, amount to the crimes against humanity of apartheid and persecution, as Human Rights Watch previously found." "Israel has repeatedly carried out indiscriminate airstrikes that killed scores of civilians – wiping out entire families – and strikes that targeted civilians or civilian infrastructure, including destroying high-rise Gaza towers full of homes and businesses, with no evident military targets in the vicinity." www.hrw.org/news/2023/10/09/israel/palestine-devastating-civilian-toll-parties-flout-legal-obligations?gclid=Cj0KCQjwhL6pBhDjARIsAGx8D5-slMH8nCeaa8n0Skytm5ZSuUQfBgBjo6Sjp4NQZq3JVIHoyrWLpHoaAuP8EALw_wcBThen there is a case before the ICC: International Criminal CourtSituation in Palestine | Summary of Preliminary Examination Findings "In particular, as set out in the Prosecutor’s request pursuant to article 19(3) for a ruling on the Court’s territorial jurisdiction in Palestine, the Office has found that there is a reasonable basis to believe that, in the context of the 2014 hostilities in Gaza, members of the Israel Defense Forces (“IDF”) committed the war crimes of: intentionally launching disproportionate attacks in relation to at least three incidents which the Office has focussed on (article 8(2)(b)(iv)); wilful killing and wilfully causing serious injury to body or health (articles 8(2)(a)(i) and 8(2)(a)(iii), or article 8(2)(c)(i)); and intentionally directing an attack against objects or persons using the distinctive emblems of the Geneva Conventions (article 8(2)(b)(xxiv), or 8(2)(e)(ii))." www.icc-cpi.int/sites/default/files/itemsDocuments/210303-office-of-the-prosecutor-palestine-summary-findings-eng.pdfFirst Israel's spokesperson took credit on "X"/Twitter... pbs.twimg.com/media/F8rBXB7WEAABYPx?format=jpg&name=large Investigations Reveal Discrepancies in Israel’s Gaza Hospital Attack Claimswww.aljazeera.com/news/2023/10/20/what-have-open-source-videos-revealed-about-the-gaza-hospital-explosionOccupation In Palestine Is Unbearable, Says Former US President Obamawww.youtube.com/watch?v=57gSIu5C3-E I don't have time to investigate all the anti-Israel claims you reference, but I do wish to comment on one or two.
As for hrw.org, this is from Wikipedia.
HRW has been accused of evidence-gathering bias because it is said to be "credulous of civilian witnesses in places like Gaza and Afghanistan" but "skeptical of anyone in a uniform."[16] Its founder, Robert Bernstein, accused the organization of poor research methods and relying on "witnesses whose stories cannot be verified and who may testify for political advantage or because they fear retaliation from their own rulers."[17] In October 2009, Bernstein said that the organization had lost critical perspective on events in the Middle East:[17] "[T]he region is populated by authoritarian regimes with appalling human rights records. Yet in recent years Human Rights Watch has written far more condemnations of Israel for violations of international law than of any other country in the region."
From camera.org
Unfortunately, the organization has a long history of anti-Israel agitation and propaganda, perhaps best illustrated by the facts about Joe Stork, who served for many years as HRW’s Deputy Director of Middle East issues. Before being hired by HRW, Stork openly supported Palestinian terror attacks against Jewish civilians, and opposed any and all peace treaties between Israel and Arab states.
Stork even traveled to Saddam Hussein’s Iraq for a conference on “Zionism and Racism.” His very appearance at a conference sponsored by the brutal regime of Saddam Hussein should have disqualified him from working for any human rights group, but apparently that’s not how HRW saw it.
Aljazeera.com? Seriously?
In short, the sources listed are dubious in terms of being fair to Israel.
I'm still curious to know what Israel should have done following the horrific attack of Oct.7th. By the way, the difference in the way Israel was portrayed when I was young (i.e., about 60 plus years ago) and now is stark. Books, documentaries, and movies (e.g. Gentleman's Agreement, Judgment at Nuremberg, Exodus, Cast a Giant Shadow) dealt with the incredibly inhumane treatment of Jews historically and, in the last of the cited films, the creation of Israel.
Much of that pro-Israel sentiment has been replaced by hatred of Israel and support for groups that openly seek the destruction of that nation. Quite a change. I hope I do not have to list the many terrorist attacks perpetrated by groups seeking the destruction of Israel. As one poster reminded me, "look it up the Internet."
I'll anticipate one criticism that is bound to be thrown at me. No, I am not unsympathetic regarding the Palestinians. My belief is that the vast majority of those tormented people would, if given a real chance, choose to live in peace with Israel. Living in peace does not mean the destruction of Israel, of course.
What is so ironic is that living in peace with the state of Israel would mean huge benefits to everyone concerned. I have never been to Israel, but everything I know about that country reveals that they have built a prosperous nation in, if you will forgive me, the middle of the desert. There is no reason why Palestinians could not enjoy the same kind of prosperity.
That will be possible only when the radical anti-Israel forces give up their desire to destroy their neighbors.
AzWm "Substantiate the claims or you're lying!" "I don't have time to read your substantiations, actually." Unserious....
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Post by AztecWilliam on Aug 9, 2024 21:30:58 GMT -8
I don't have time to investigate all the anti-Israel claims you reference, but I do wish to comment on one or two.
As for hrw.org, this is from Wikipedia.
HRW has been accused of evidence-gathering bias because it is said to be "credulous of civilian witnesses in places like Gaza and Afghanistan" but "skeptical of anyone in a uniform."[16] Its founder, Robert Bernstein, accused the organization of poor research methods and relying on "witnesses whose stories cannot be verified and who may testify for political advantage or because they fear retaliation from their own rulers."[17] In October 2009, Bernstein said that the organization had lost critical perspective on events in the Middle East:[17] "[T]he region is populated by authoritarian regimes with appalling human rights records. Yet in recent years Human Rights Watch has written far more condemnations of Israel for violations of international law than of any other country in the region."
From camera.org
Unfortunately, the organization has a long history of anti-Israel agitation and propaganda, perhaps best illustrated by the facts about Joe Stork, who served for many years as HRW’s Deputy Director of Middle East issues. Before being hired by HRW, Stork openly supported Palestinian terror attacks against Jewish civilians, and opposed any and all peace treaties between Israel and Arab states.
Stork even traveled to Saddam Hussein’s Iraq for a conference on “Zionism and Racism.” His very appearance at a conference sponsored by the brutal regime of Saddam Hussein should have disqualified him from working for any human rights group, but apparently that’s not how HRW saw it.
Aljazeera.com? Seriously?
In short, the sources listed are dubious in terms of being fair to Israel.
I'm still curious to know what Israel should have done following the horrific attack of Oct.7th. By the way, the difference in the way Israel was portrayed when I was young (i.e., about 60 plus years ago) and now is stark. Books, documentaries, and movies (e.g. Gentleman's Agreement, Judgment at Nuremberg, Exodus, Cast a Giant Shadow) dealt with the incredibly inhumane treatment of Jews historically and, in the last of the cited films, the creation of Israel.
Much of that pro-Israel sentiment has been replaced by hatred of Israel and support for groups that openly seek the destruction of that nation. Quite a change. I hope I do not have to list the many terrorist attacks perpetrated by groups seeking the destruction of Israel. As one poster reminded me, "look it up the Internet."
I'll anticipate one criticism that is bound to be thrown at me. No, I am not unsympathetic regarding the Palestinians. My belief is that the vast majority of those tormented people would, if given a real chance, choose to live in peace with Israel. Living in peace does not mean the destruction of Israel, of course.
What is so ironic is that living in peace with the state of Israel would mean huge benefits to everyone concerned. I have never been to Israel, but everything I know about that country reveals that they have built a prosperous nation in, if you will forgive me, the middle of the desert. There is no reason why Palestinians could not enjoy the same kind of prosperity.
That will be possible only when the radical anti-Israel forces give up their desire to destroy their neighbors.
AzWm "Substantiate the claims or you're lying!" "I don't have time to read your substantiations, actually." Unserious.... Now, now. Please don't accuse me of saying something that I did not say. I did not say that you, or anyone else on AztecMesa, is lying. I do say that the accusations leveled against Israel are, in my opinion, lies. Or at any rate most of them. What I find interesting is that the sources referenced are mostly ones whose accuracy with regard to stories about Israel is very suspect.
Okay, let's say that everything said against Israel is true. In that case one would have to maintain that Israel is a nation with strong resemblance to apartheid South Africa even, god help us, Nazi Germany. Where does that leave the USA? We would have to break all relations with Israel, right? Expel Israel from the UN. Send huge amounts of money to Hamas, Hezbollah, perhaps other Iranian-backed groups. In any case, if he/she were to be intellectually honest, he/she would have to quite saying that there is no distance between the USA and Israel.
The war in Gaza is horrible, without doubt. It's another case proving Sherman's statement that was is hell. But again I ask, what should Israel have done after Oct. 7? The fact is that for the last 78 years, Israel has been in a war with groups that will settle for nothing less than its total annihilation. It is the one situation today in which one group, the Israelis, really do face an existential threat.
In conclusion, I would ask all those differ with me in this discussion, does Israel have a right to exist? If attacked, does it have a right to defend itself? And if the answer to that second question is "yes", does Israel have the right to decide on its manner of self-defense, or must it first get the approval of foreign politicians?
AzWm
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Post by aztecryan on Aug 9, 2024 21:41:18 GMT -8
"Substantiate the claims or you're lying!" "I don't have time to read your substantiations, actually." Unserious.... Now, now. Please don't accuse me of saying something that I did not say. I did not say that you, or anyone else on AztecMesa, is lying. I do say that the accusations leveled against Israel are, in my opinion, lies. Or at any rate most of them. What I find interesting is that the sources referenced are mostly ones whose accuracy with regard to stories about Israel is very suspect.
Okay, let's say that everything said against Israel is true. In that case one would have to maintain that Israel is a nation with strong resemblance to apartheid South Africa even, god help us, Nazi Germany. Where does that leave the USA? We would have to break all relations with Israel, right? Expel Israel from the UN. Send huge amounts of money to Hamas, Hezbollah, perhaps other Iranian-backed groups. In any case, if he/she were to be intellectually honest, he/she would have to quite saying that there is no distance between the USA and Israel.
The war in Gaza is horrible, without doubt. It's another case proving Sherman's statement that was is hell. But again I ask, what should Israel have done after Oct. 7? The fact is that for the last 78 years, Israel has been in a war with groups that will settle for nothing less than its total annihilation. It is the one situation today in which one group, the Israelis, really do face an existential threat.
In conclusion, I would ask all those differ with me in this discussion, does Israel have a right to exist? If attacked, does it have a right to defend itself? And if the answer to that second question is "yes", does Israel have the right to decide on its manner of self-defense, or must it first get the approval of foreign politicians?
AzWm"Most of those charges are complete lies." Want to try again...? Don't shift the goalposts. Have the integrity to own up to what you said. I realize that you like to disappear for days and then create new threads and pretend like nothing happened, but the Internet lives forever. Yes, reflexively you're going to attack the sources. Straight out of the playbook. Step 1: Denial. Step 2: Attack the source. Step 3: Bargain. Step 4: Acceptance, hopefully. Still working on that one. Stay on topic, though. We aren't talking about Germany, South Africa, or anywhere else but Israel. Although, yes, Israel is an apartheid state. But that's not the crux of the argument here. You completely ignored the sourcing that illustrates Israel instructed displaced refugees to relocate to Rafah....and then Indiscriminately bombed Rafah directly afterwards. Israel has a long history of human rights violations. They have every right to defend their own territory, sovereignty and citizenry...but commiting war crimes is not that.
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Post by AztecWilliam on Aug 9, 2024 22:00:28 GMT -8
Now, now. Please don't accuse me of saying something that I did not say. I did not say that you, or anyone else on AztecMesa, is lying. I do say that the accusations leveled against Israel are, in my opinion, lies. Or at any rate most of them. What I find interesting is that the sources referenced are mostly ones whose accuracy with regard to stories about Israel is very suspect.
Okay, let's say that everything said against Israel is true. In that case one would have to maintain that Israel is a nation with strong resemblance to apartheid South Africa even, god help us, Nazi Germany. Where does that leave the USA? We would have to break all relations with Israel, right? Expel Israel from the UN. Send huge amounts of money to Hamas, Hezbollah, perhaps other Iranian-backed groups. In any case, if he/she were to be intellectually honest, he/she would have to quite saying that there is no distance between the USA and Israel.
The war in Gaza is horrible, without doubt. It's another case proving Sherman's statement that was is hell. But again I ask, what should Israel have done after Oct. 7? The fact is that for the last 78 years, Israel has been in a war with groups that will settle for nothing less than its total annihilation. It is the one situation today in which one group, the Israelis, really do face an existential threat.
In conclusion, I would ask all those differ with me in this discussion, does Israel have a right to exist? If attacked, does it have a right to defend itself? And if the answer to that second question is "yes", does Israel have the right to decide on its manner of self-defense, or must it first get the approval of foreign politicians?
AzWm "Most of those charges are complete lies." Want to try again...? Don't shift the goalposts. Have the integrity to own up to what you said. I realize that you like to disappear for days and then create new threads and pretend like nothing happened, but the Internet lives forever. Yes, reflexively you're going to attack the sources. Straight out of the playbook. Step 1: Denial. Step 2: Attack the source. Step 3: Bargain. Step 4: Acceptance, hopefully. Still working on that one. Stay on topic, though. We aren't talking about Germany, South Africa, or anywhere else but Israel. Although, yes, Israel is an apartheid state. But that's not the crux of the argument here. You completely ignored the sourcing that illustrates Israel instructed displaced refugees to relocate to Rafah....and then Indiscriminately bombed Rafah directly afterwards. Israel has a long history of human rights violations. They have every right to defend their own territory, sovereignty and citizenry...but commiting war crimes is not that. What was Oct. 7? A legitimate military action against a military target? Please answer that question.
Also, if Israel is so terrible, just what should we, the USA, do about it? Also, I would like you to respond to my contention that peace in the Middle East can be obtained only when the Palestinians honestly and sincerely give up their state goal of destroying the state of Israel.
AzWm
PS: Man, you are really on duty. Your last post was just 13 minutes after my last one. Seems like you are on call day and night. I am retired (for 21 years, as a matter of fact), so I can be forgiven for spending so much time on the Internet. To be honest, I shouldn't.
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Post by aztecryan on Aug 9, 2024 22:42:29 GMT -8
"Most of those charges are complete lies." Want to try again...? Don't shift the goalposts. Have the integrity to own up to what you said. I realize that you like to disappear for days and then create new threads and pretend like nothing happened, but the Internet lives forever. Yes, reflexively you're going to attack the sources. Straight out of the playbook. Step 1: Denial. Step 2: Attack the source. Step 3: Bargain. Step 4: Acceptance, hopefully. Still working on that one. Stay on topic, though. We aren't talking about Germany, South Africa, or anywhere else but Israel. Although, yes, Israel is an apartheid state. But that's not the crux of the argument here. You completely ignored the sourcing that illustrates Israel instructed displaced refugees to relocate to Rafah....and then Indiscriminately bombed Rafah directly afterwards. Israel has a long history of human rights violations. They have every right to defend their own territory, sovereignty and citizenry...but commiting war crimes is not that. What was Oct. 7? A legitimate military action against a military target? Please answer that question.
Also, if Israel is so terrible, just what should we, the USA, do about it? Also, I would like you to respond to my contention that peace in the Middle East can be obtained only when the Palestinians honestly and sincerely give up their state goal of destroying the state of Israel.
AzWm
PS: Man, you are really on duty. Your last post was just 13 minutes after my last one. Seems like you are on call day and night. I am retired (for 21 years, as a matter of fact), so I can be forgiven for spending so much time on the Internet. To be honest, I shouldn't.
A continuation of a 75 year conflict that Israel did not expect to happen, even though Netanyahu directly funded Hamas for years. None of that refutes what's been said. The US will always defend Israel. Should they? Not if the indiscriminate civilian bombings continue, but that's not the political reality of the situation. Now, will you address the attacks on refugees that were directly displaced?
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