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Post by sdsuball on Jun 28, 2023 12:52:00 GMT -8
What about if we could trade Grish for a right fielder with a solid arm, solid speed and a better bat? Not for a one year rental, but for a stud with a few years of team control. Then just run with Tatis in center? At this point I believe it's an option that needs to be looked at. Watching Tatis play right I'm fairly certain that he could be a gold glove caliber center fielder. Alternatively, trading Grish for a first basemen with a few years of team control could work as well, promoting Azocar.. Why do you want to move the best right fielder in baseball out of right field? He's worth more WAR in CF.
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Post by aztecryan on Jun 28, 2023 12:52:40 GMT -8
Far from a certainty and his best asset is wasted in center field. Just leave him where he is after he literally just moved positions this year. Just so I can understand the logic here: We hate Grisham (a slightly below league average hitter this year) but we think he's going to net a stud right fielder with an arm in a trade, or a first baseman with power in a trade? Azocar isn't an improvement, either. I mean you're the person who says that Grisham is such an asset as a controllable CF that's cheap with gold glove defense. So is he an asset or not? If he is let's trade him. If he's not, then why are you opposed to moving him? Definitely an asset. Just don't see the value in moving him at all.
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Post by aztecryan on Jun 28, 2023 12:53:56 GMT -8
Why do you want to move the best right fielder in baseball out of right field? He's worth more WAR in CF. Disagree with that.
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Post by sdsuball on Jun 28, 2023 12:55:34 GMT -8
He's worth more WAR in CF. Disagree with that. FanGraphs Positional Adjustment Position Full Season Adjustment C +12.5 1B -12.5 2B +2.5 SS +7.5 3B +2.5 LF -7.5 CF +2.5 RF -7.5 DH -17.5
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Post by johneaztec on Jun 28, 2023 12:56:22 GMT -8
Not him alone in a trade, obviously. Of course it would be great to leave Tatis in right field, but we have a glaring need for more offense. So they aren't hitting the ball more consistently? Hm. Well, here's the rub. This team goes nowhere without Manny regaining some of his MVP-form. It goes nowhere without Xander Bogaerts regaining some of his early season success. You're not really gaining more offense in the outfield when there's two top 10 players there already. Oh, for sure, but you don't sit idly around and wait for that. If you can pull something off, you do it. Grisham has had his run here. He doesn't produce enough, offensively. He doesn't steal enough bags. He strikes out too much, and on and on. Manny needs to step up like the leader he supposedly is, and start friggin producing. Boegarts gave us false hope. Hopefully, these two pull their heads out of their arses and get it going, or, like you're saying, it's going to be a long season.
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Post by aztecryan on Jun 28, 2023 12:58:17 GMT -8
FanGraphs Positional Adjustment Position Full Season Adjustment C +12.5 1B -12.5 2B +2.5 SS +7.5 3B +2.5 LF -7.5 CF +2.5 RF -7.5 DH -17.5 You still have to perform and have associated defensive metrics that can/will fluctuate based on various factors. His arm is his best asset. You put your best arm (in general) in right field, especially in Petco's vast dimensions. Grisham didn't win a Gold Glove because of the positional adjustment.
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Post by johneaztec on Jun 28, 2023 12:59:23 GMT -8
Why do you want to move the best right fielder in baseball out of right field? He's worth more WAR in CF. Yeah, that's a no brainer. I think Tatis wants, or wanted to play center field.
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Post by aztecryan on Jun 28, 2023 12:59:37 GMT -8
So they aren't hitting the ball more consistently? Hm. Well, here's the rub. This team goes nowhere without Manny regaining some of his MVP-form. It goes nowhere without Xander Bogaerts regaining some of his early season success. You're not really gaining more offense in the outfield when there's two top 10 players there already. Oh, for sure, but you don't sit idly around and wait for that. If you can pull something off, you do it. Grisham has had his run here. He doesn't produce enough, offensively. He doesn't steal enough bags. He strikes out too much, and on and on. Manny needs to step up like the leader he supposedly is, and start friggin producing. Boegarts gave us false hope. Hopefully, these two pull their heads out of their arses and get it going, or, like you're saying, it's going to be a long season. There's no universe where the Padres are playoff contenders with Bogaerts and Machado not being at their career norms. It's just impossible on this roster, given the payroll constraints.
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Post by sdsuball on Jun 28, 2023 13:00:10 GMT -8
So they aren't hitting the ball more consistently? Hm. Well, here's the rub. This team goes nowhere without Manny regaining some of his MVP-form. It goes nowhere without Xander Bogaerts regaining some of his early season success. You're not really gaining more offense in the outfield when there's two top 10 players there already. Oh, for sure, but you don't sit idly around and wait for that. If you can pull something off, you do it. Grisham has had his run here. He doesn't produce enough, offensively. He doesn't steal enough bags. He strikes out too much, and on and on. Manny needs to step up like the leader he supposedly is, and start friggin producing. Boegarts gave us false hope. Hopefully, these two pull their heads out of their arses and get it going, or, like you're saying, it's going to be a long season. Exactly. If Grish could have improved his ability to get on base this would be a completely different story. He hasn't done enough with his skillset, he doesn't get on base enough, doesn't steal enough. The issue with Grish is not the skill set, its the lack of development. He has the tools. Why doesn't he drag bunt more? Why doesn't he change his approach with two strikes to be more contact oriented??
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Post by sdsuball on Jun 28, 2023 13:02:03 GMT -8
FanGraphs Positional Adjustment Position Full Season Adjustment C +12.5 1B -12.5 2B +2.5 SS +7.5 3B +2.5 LF -7.5 CF +2.5 RF -7.5 DH -17.5 You still have to perform and have associated defensive metrics that can/will fluctuate based on various factors. His arm is his best asset. You put your best arm (in general) in right field, especially in Petco's vast dimensions. Grisham didn't win a Gold Glove because of the positional adjustment. I understand that, but it's still such a huge spread in positional adjustment that he would still be worth more in CF.
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Post by johneaztec on Jun 28, 2023 13:02:54 GMT -8
FanGraphs Positional Adjustment Position Full Season Adjustment C +12.5 1B -12.5 2B +2.5 SS +7.5 3B +2.5 LF -7.5 CF +2.5 RF -7.5 DH -17.5 You still have to perform and have associated defensive metrics that can/will fluctuate based on various factors. His arm is his best asset. You put your best arm (in general) in right field, especially in Petco's vast dimensions. Grisham didn't win a Gold Glove because of the positional adjustment. The ground he could cover in center field would be phenomenal. And, after he gets to the ball, which a lot of times would be in left center and right center, he has the arm to cut down base runners still, or stop them from taking an extra base. To argue that he would not be more valuable to the team in center field is ridiculous.
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Post by sdsuball on Jun 28, 2023 13:05:26 GMT -8
FanGraphs Positional Adjustment Position Full Season Adjustment C +12.5 1B -12.5 2B +2.5 SS +7.5 3B +2.5 LF -7.5 CF +2.5 RF -7.5 DH -17.5 You still have to perform and have associated defensive metrics that can/will fluctuate based on various factors. His arm is his best asset. You put your best arm (in general) in right field, especially in Petco's vast dimensions. Grisham didn't win a Gold Glove because of the positional adjustment. Here's a crazy idea (not sure if this has been considered before). What if, instead of putting Tatis in CF, you keep him in RF have him shade more towards right center instead of straight on right, and you put a Azocar (or whoever you put out there instead of Grish) shaded towards left center instead of dead-on center? Then you keep your best arm in right, but you expand Tatis range that he has to cover, allowing you to play a center fielder with less range?
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Post by johneaztec on Jun 28, 2023 13:06:54 GMT -8
Oh, for sure, but you don't sit idly around and wait for that. If you can pull something off, you do it. Grisham has had his run here. He doesn't produce enough, offensively. He doesn't steal enough bags. He strikes out too much, and on and on. Manny needs to step up like the leader he supposedly is, and start friggin producing. Boegarts gave us false hope. Hopefully, these two pull their heads out of their arses and get it going, or, like you're saying, it's going to be a long season. Exactly. If Grish could have improved his ability to get on base this would be a completely different story. He hasn't done enough with his skillset, he doesn't get on base enough, doesn't steal enough. The issue with Grish is not the skill set, its the lack of development. He has the tools. Why doesn't he drag bunt more? Why doesn't he change his approach with two strikes to be more contact oriented?? He needs a new mind set. He seems to over swing quite a bit when he's behind in the count. He could be so much more dangerous if he would utilize the bunt more and just be more of a contact hitter, but some people don't want to change.
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Post by aztecryan on Jun 28, 2023 13:08:52 GMT -8
Oh, for sure, but you don't sit idly around and wait for that. If you can pull something off, you do it. Grisham has had his run here. He doesn't produce enough, offensively. He doesn't steal enough bags. He strikes out too much, and on and on. Manny needs to step up like the leader he supposedly is, and start friggin producing. Boegarts gave us false hope. Hopefully, these two pull their heads out of their arses and get it going, or, like you're saying, it's going to be a long season. Exactly. If Grish could have improved his ability to get on base this would be a completely different story. He hasn't done enough with his skillset, he doesn't get on base enough, doesn't steal enough. The issue with Grish is not the skill set, its the lack of development. He has the tools. Why doesn't he drag bunt more? Why doesn't he change his approach with two strikes to be more contact oriented?? He has a 12.9% walk rate this season. Not elite, but very, very good. I'm not sure where the sudden obsession with steals has come from. You get steals based on attempts. You get attempts by being given opportunities to actually steal. The Padres, by and large, aren't that aggressive on the bases (something I've bitched about relentlessly this season) so I'm not really sure how that can be a negative. He's capable, but it's a philosophy issue, not a Grisham issue. So now we're at the lack of development. That falls on the organization, right? Organizations give players the tools to improve their game. The quotes coming out of the clubhouse are....problematic, in that regard. There seems to be a lot of uncertainty and questions that don't have answers to them. And now let's address the statistics. Grisham's wOBA is .302. His xWOBA is .338. So he's dramatically underperforming his expected on base average. I think we'd feel a lot better if he was a .340 OBP guy instead of a .315 OBP guy.
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Post by aztecryan on Jun 28, 2023 13:10:01 GMT -8
You still have to perform and have associated defensive metrics that can/will fluctuate based on various factors. His arm is his best asset. You put your best arm (in general) in right field, especially in Petco's vast dimensions. Grisham didn't win a Gold Glove because of the positional adjustment. The ground he could cover in center field would be phenomenal. And, after he gets to the ball, which a lot of times would be in left center and right center, he has the arm to cut down base runners still, or stop them from taking an extra base. To argue that he would not be more valuable to the team in center field is ridiculous. We deal in statistics here, not in empty hypotheticals. You're also only using one piece of the puzzle here, too. How much more valuable defensively is Tatis worth in center over Grisham? And then right field becomes a question mark at the same time.
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Post by johneaztec on Jun 28, 2023 13:13:02 GMT -8
Exactly. If Grish could have improved his ability to get on base this would be a completely different story. He hasn't done enough with his skillset, he doesn't get on base enough, doesn't steal enough. The issue with Grish is not the skill set, its the lack of development. He has the tools. Why doesn't he drag bunt more? Why doesn't he change his approach with two strikes to be more contact oriented?? He has a 12.9% walk rate this season. Not elite, but very, very good. I'm not sure where the sudden obsession with steals has come from. You get steals based on attempts. You get attempts by being given opportunities to actually steal. The Padres, by and large, aren't that aggressive on the bases (something I've bitched about relentlessly this season) so I'm not really sure how that can be a negative. He's capable, but it's a philosophy issue, not a Grisham issue. So now we're at the lack of development. That falls on the organization, right? Organizations give players the tools to improve their game. The quotes coming out of the clubhouse are....problematic, in that regard. There seems to be a lot of uncertainty and questions that don't have answers to them. And now let's address the statistics. Grisham's wOBA is .302. His xWOBA is .338. So he's dramatically underperforming his expected on base average. I think we'd feel a lot better if he was a .340 OBP guy instead of a .315 OBP guy. And at the same time, he's at an awful 27.9% strike out ratio. Horrible. Let's not forget that, and not bring that up along with the walk ratio.
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Post by johneaztec on Jun 28, 2023 13:14:35 GMT -8
The ground he could cover in center field would be phenomenal. And, after he gets to the ball, which a lot of times would be in left center and right center, he has the arm to cut down base runners still, or stop them from taking an extra base. To argue that he would not be more valuable to the team in center field is ridiculous. We deal in statistics here, not in empty hypotheticals. You're also only using one piece of the puzzle here, too. How much more valuable defensively is Tatis worth in center over Grisham? And then right field becomes a question mark at the same time. No, you don't do that until a trade has been made to cover right field. Sure, these are all hypotheticals, but the upgrade in center field has to happen at some point. He's not producing at the plate. By the way, in the past, just like all of us, you've raved about the possibility of Tatis as an outfielder, wherever he would play.
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Post by sdsuball on Jun 28, 2023 13:15:03 GMT -8
He has a 12.9% walk rate this season. Not elite, but very, very good. I'm not sure where the sudden obsession with steals has come from. You get steals based on attempts. You get attempts by being given opportunities to actually steal. The Padres, by and large, aren't that aggressive on the bases (something I've bitched about relentlessly this season) so I'm not really sure how that can be a negative. He's capable, but it's a philosophy issue, not a Grisham issue. So now we're at the lack of development. That falls on the organization, right? Organizations give players the tools to improve their game. The quotes coming out of the clubhouse are....problematic, in that regard. There seems to be a lot of uncertainty and questions that don't have answers to them. And now let's address the statistics. Grisham's wOBA is .302. His xWOBA is .338. So he's dramatically underperforming his expected on base average. I think we'd feel a lot better if he was a .340 OBP guy instead of a .315 OBP guy. And at the same time, he's at an awful 27.9% strike out ratio. Horrible. Right, and part of the reason why he has such a high walk rate is because he takes more pitches then he should, which also correlates with his awful strikeout ratio.
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Post by johneaztec on Jun 28, 2023 13:17:14 GMT -8
And at the same time, he's at an awful 27.9% strike out ratio. Horrible. Right, and part of the reason why he has such a high walk rate is because he takes more pitches then he should, which also correlates with his awful strikeout ratio. Good point. He seems to get caught looking ALOT.
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Post by sdsuball on Jun 28, 2023 13:17:21 GMT -8
We deal in statistics here, not in empty hypotheticals. You're also only using one piece of the puzzle here, too. How much more valuable defensively is Tatis worth in center over Grisham? And then right field becomes a question mark at the same time. No, you don't do that until a trade has been made to cover right field. Sure, these are all hypotheticals, but the upgrade in center field has to happen at some point. He's not producing at the plate. By the way, in the past, you've raved about the possibility of Tatis as an outfielder, wherever he would play. Exactly, and part of that conversation is how well do Azocar and Dahl grade out defensiveky RF, if we were to trade Grish for a first basemen.
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