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Post by docmm on May 17, 2023 16:52:15 GMT -8
He's horrifically and maybe even historically bad at the plate. Yes, he's very good in CF but can we afford to have him, Kim and Nola in the game at the same time anymore? He's hitting .191 after his 4-strikeout game today. He personally left 9 (!!!!) guys on base during those 4 Ks. He strikes out a third of his plate appearances. A THIRD!!!!!!!
He has to go! If he comes around, great. It'd be nice if hie hit like he did in the post-season but I'm not holding my breath. The worst part is how many times he gets called out. He takes these pitches in the strike zone with two strikes and it must drive Melvin crazy.
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Post by johneaztec on May 17, 2023 18:54:10 GMT -8
He's horrifically and maybe even historically bad at the plate. Yes, he's very good in CF but can we afford to have him, Kim and Nola in the game at the same time anymore? He's hitting .191 after his 4-strikeout game today. He personally left 9 (!!!!) guys on base during those 4 Ks. He strikes out a third of his plate appearances. A THIRD!!!!!!! He has to go! If he comes around, great. It'd be nice if hie hit like he did in the post-season but I'm not holding my breath. The worst part is how many times he gets called out. He takes these pitches in the strike zone with two strikes and it must drive Melvin crazy. Yeah, we HAVE to hope he can turn it around, unless some trade is made. He's been consistently bad for quite awhile now, that maybe this is just who he is and NOTHING like that playoff performance. I hope he turns it around, and quick like.
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Post by azson on May 18, 2023 10:06:56 GMT -8
What's most mind-boggling to me is that he seemed to have figured it out just in time for the playoffs last year, so I presumed he'd be fine this season. It's as if an alien took over his body just for the playoffs and then left again. I truly can't remember a Padre ever being so horrifically bad, bookended on either side of a stellar playoffs.
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Post by junior on May 18, 2023 14:22:19 GMT -8
Historically, he's bad offense. Total anthesis of what's needed from CF position in terms of hitting. While Gold Glove awards are not completely worthless, I don't think they imbue "must keep" status on a player who occasionally gets hot but has shown time and again that he really can't hit consistently. Won't be upset to get an upgrade in the outfield. But Engel really isn't that upgrade.
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Post by johneaztec on May 18, 2023 15:50:05 GMT -8
Historically, he's bad offense. Total anthesis of what's needed from CF position in terms of hitting. While Gold Glove awards are not completely worthless, I don't think they imbue "must keep" status on a player who occasionally gets hot but has shown time and again that he really can't hit consistently. Won't be upset to get an upgrade in the outfield. But Engel really isn't that upgrade. This is right on. I agree.
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Post by aztecryan on May 18, 2023 16:26:30 GMT -8
Historically, he's bad offense. Total anthesis of what's needed from CF position in terms of hitting. While Gold Glove awards are not completely worthless, I don't think they imbue "must keep" status on a player who occasionally gets hot but has shown time and again that he really can't hit consistently. Won't be upset to get an upgrade in the outfield. But Engel really isn't that upgrade. I think there's a misconception going on here.
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Post by aardvark on May 18, 2023 17:05:55 GMT -8
Historically, he's bad offense. Total anthesis of what's needed from CF position in terms of hitting. While Gold Glove awards are not completely worthless, I don't think they imbue "must keep" status on a player who occasionally gets hot but has shown time and again that he really can't hit consistently. Won't be upset to get an upgrade in the outfield. But Engel really isn't that upgrade. I think there's a misconception going on here. Care to elaborate?
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Post by junior on May 18, 2023 17:32:57 GMT -8
Career WAR 9.1 YAY!! 97 OPS+ The Average Player is 100, so he's close to "average". 2023 WAR 0.1 BOO!! He's almost losing games! 2022 : .184/.284/.341 OPS+ 81 (it's actually higher so far this season) The trend line is not leveling up, that's for sure.
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Post by bballfan11 on May 18, 2023 18:46:07 GMT -8
Historically, he's bad offense. Total anthesis of what's needed from CF position in terms of hitting. While Gold Glove awards are not completely worthless, I don't think they imbue "must keep" status on a player who occasionally gets hot but has shown time and again that he really can't hit consistently. Won't be upset to get an upgrade in the outfield. But Engel really isn't that upgrade. I think there's a misconception going on here. Please explain. I’m interested in your take on the whole Grisham situation.
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Post by aztecryan on May 18, 2023 19:09:19 GMT -8
I think there's a misconception going on here. Care to elaborate? Historically, he's basically a league average hitter. 97 wRC+. He's actually having a better season this year than the reigning AL Rookie of the Year, which goes to show just how much things fluctuate sometimes. There's more of a defensive emphasis on the position now than an offensive one, we've kinda moved out of the Griffey/Hamilton era into a more defensive oriented outlook. If the rest of the offense improves back to somewhere outside of not completely awful, he's fine at the bottom of the order. In general, you'll trade strikeouts for more power, which I think he's trying to get to this season. He's still a little too passive with balls in the zone, but I think that's a team-wide issue at this point. It's not a deep position at all, there's a handful of expensive studs at the top and then there's a lot of guys jumbled together. A Gold Glove center fielder with league average numbers in arbitration is valuable.
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Post by johneaztec on May 18, 2023 19:22:17 GMT -8
Historically, he's basically a league average hitter. 97 wRC+. He's actually having a better season this year than the reigning AL Rookie of the Year, which goes to show just how much things fluctuate sometimes. There's more of a defensive emphasis on the position now than an offensive one, we've kinda moved out of the Griffey/Hamilton era into a more defensive oriented outlook. If the rest of the offense improves back to somewhere outside of not completely awful, he's fine at the bottom of the order. In general, you'll trade strikeouts for more power, which I think he's trying to get to this season. He's still a little too passive with balls in the zone, but I think that's a team-wide issue at this point. It's not a deep position at all, there's a handful of expensive studs at the top and then there's a lot of guys jumbled together. A Gold Glove center fielder with league average numbers in arbitration is valuable. Then the historical league average sucks, because he's been sucking for waaay too long. Love him in the outfield, but that's a guy you can almost count on to leave a lot of men on base, and strike out consistently when you need a ball put in play. He's a big time detriment on the offensive end. No other way to put it. It would be absolutely incredible if he can get to some sort of consistency this year. It would be a bonus that not many are counting on.
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Post by aztecryan on May 18, 2023 19:32:14 GMT -8
Historically, he's basically a league average hitter. 97 wRC+. He's actually having a better season this year than the reigning AL Rookie of the Year, which goes to show just how much things fluctuate sometimes. There's more of a defensive emphasis on the position now than an offensive one, we've kinda moved out of the Griffey/Hamilton era into a more defensive oriented outlook. If the rest of the offense improves back to somewhere outside of not completely awful, he's fine at the bottom of the order. In general, you'll trade strikeouts for more power, which I think he's trying to get to this season. He's still a little too passive with balls in the zone, but I think that's a team-wide issue at this point. It's not a deep position at all, there's a handful of expensive studs at the top and then there's a lot of guys jumbled together. A Gold Glove center fielder with league average numbers in arbitration is valuable. Then the historical league average sucks, because he's been sucking for waaay too long. Love him in the outfield, but that's a guy you can almost count on to leave a lot of men on base, and strike out consistently when you need a ball put in play. He's a big time detriment on the offensive end. No other way to put it. It would be absolutely incredible if he can get to some sort of consistency this year. It would be a bonus that not many are counting on. I mean there is another way to put it. Recency bias. What person says "The historical league average sucks"....that's your only frame of reference that's worth anything. How is he doing compared to other players at the same position since he started? The entire team sucks with runners on. They are dead last in every single standard category. Most strikeouts, lowest average, lowest OBP, lowest slugging. The question we should be asking is why is it happening to everyone simultaneously? Established vets, pre-arb guys, superstars, everyone. Why?
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Post by johneaztec on May 18, 2023 19:40:17 GMT -8
Then the historical league average sucks, because he's been sucking for waaay too long. Love him in the outfield, but that's a guy you can almost count on to leave a lot of men on base, and strike out consistently when you need a ball put in play. He's a big time detriment on the offensive end. No other way to put it. It would be absolutely incredible if he can get to some sort of consistency this year. It would be a bonus that not many are counting on. I mean there is another way to put it. Recency bias. What person says "The historical league average sucks"....that's your only frame of reference that's worth anything. How is he doing compared to other players at the same position since he started? The entire team sucks with runners on. They are dead last in every single standard category. Most strikeouts, lowest average, lowest OBP, lowest slugging. The question we should be asking is why is it happening to everyone simultaneously? Established vets, pre-arb guys, superstars, everyone. Why? Grisham has sucked at the plate not just this year, but last year as well, and for most of his career. It shouldn't even be up for debate. It's there for all to see. Striking out/not putting the ball in play in crucial situations over and over, and just plain not coming through, EVER, it seems like although he was pretty good in the playoffs last year. To give the guy an out/excuses is ridiculous.
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Post by aztecryan on May 18, 2023 20:03:59 GMT -8
I mean there is another way to put it. Recency bias. What person says "The historical league average sucks"....that's your only frame of reference that's worth anything. How is he doing compared to other players at the same position since he started? The entire team sucks with runners on. They are dead last in every single standard category. Most strikeouts, lowest average, lowest OBP, lowest slugging. The question we should be asking is why is it happening to everyone simultaneously? Established vets, pre-arb guys, superstars, everyone. Why? Grisham has sucked at the plate not just this year, but last year as well, and for most of his career. It shouldn't even be up for debate. It's there for all to see. Striking out/not putting the ball in play in crucial situations over and over, and just plain not coming through, EVER, it seems like although he was pretty good in the playoffs last year. To give the guy an out/excuses is ridiculous. It's not up for debate. He struggled last year and he's struggled through 44 games this year on a historically underperforming offense. The two years prior he was fine. Why is it when it's a player you want to denigrate it's an excuse, but when it's someone you want to give a pass to, it's a reason? Again, recency bias. You're seeing an 0-4 with 4 K's and 9 LOB and absolving the entire team for being terrible at the same thing. .766 OPS with runners in scoring position in 2022 across the entire regular season, 134 plate appearances. Runner on third, less than two outs last season? Drove in the run 15 times in 26 plate appearances. So so much for "never?" Your eyes tell you what you want to see, they don't reflect reality. A lot.
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Post by docmm on May 18, 2023 20:08:53 GMT -8
Average MLB strikeout ratio is 23% of plate appearances. Grisham's is 31%, or 35% more frequently than the average MLB hitter.
28% of his K's are with him taking the 3rd strike vs the MLB average of 23%. His previous two seasons, his % looking K's were 39% and 38%!
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Post by aztecryan on May 18, 2023 20:14:16 GMT -8
Average MLB strikeout ratio is 23% of plate appearances. Grisham's is 31%, or 35% more frequently than the average MLB hitter. 28% of his K's are with him taking the 3rd strike vs the MLB average of 23%. His previous two seasons, his % looking K's were 39% and 38%! Yep. Like I said before, he's too passive with his swing decisions. He almost never swings at the first pitch. He's been elite at times not chasing out of the zone, but he's constantly behind in counts due to just never swinging.
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Post by johneaztec on May 18, 2023 20:54:19 GMT -8
Grisham has sucked at the plate not just this year, but last year as well, and for most of his career. It shouldn't even be up for debate. It's there for all to see. Striking out/not putting the ball in play in crucial situations over and over, and just plain not coming through, EVER, it seems like although he was pretty good in the playoffs last year. To give the guy an out/excuses is ridiculous. It's not up for debate. He struggled last year and he's struggled through 44 games this year on a historically underperforming offense. The two years prior he was fine. Why is it when it's a player you want to denigrate it's an excuse, but when it's someone you want to give a pass to, it's a reason? Again, recency bias. You're seeing an 0-4 with 4 K's and 9 LOB and absolving the entire team for being terrible at the same thing. .766 OPS with runners in scoring position in 2022 across the entire regular season, 134 plate appearances. Runner on third, less than two outs last season? Drove in the run 15 times in 26 plate appearances. So so much for "never?" Your eyes tell you what you want to see, they don't reflect reality. A lot. If you're referring to Tatis because I said, now that's a reason, his injury, not an excuse for his bad throws, well that's valid. You can spin it all you want. He's been pretty terrible the last two years for the most part. I'm not absolving the entire team. This is a Grisham thread, so it's appropriate. Come on now.
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Post by johneaztec on May 18, 2023 20:57:30 GMT -8
Average MLB strikeout ratio is 23% of plate appearances. Grisham's is 31%, or 35% more frequently than the average MLB hitter. 28% of his K's are with him taking the 3rd strike vs the MLB average of 23%. His previous two seasons, his % looking K's were 39% and 38%! Yep. Like I said before, he's too passive with his swing decisions. He almost never swings at the first pitch. He's been elite at times not chasing out of the zone, but he's constantly behind in counts due to just never swinging. But, you said he was an average major league batter. Not in this very important category. Probably others, as well. You are known for cherry picking stats for your benefits, unfortunately.
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Post by johneaztec on May 18, 2023 21:01:29 GMT -8
Grisham has sucked at the plate not just this year, but last year as well, and for most of his career. It shouldn't even be up for debate. It's there for all to see. Striking out/not putting the ball in play in crucial situations over and over, and just plain not coming through, EVER, it seems like although he was pretty good in the playoffs last year. To give the guy an out/excuses is ridiculous. It's not up for debate. He struggled last year and he's struggled through 44 games this year on a historically underperforming offense. The two years prior he was fine. Why is it when it's a player you want to denigrate it's an excuse, but when it's someone you want to give a pass to, it's a reason? Again, recency bias. You're seeing an 0-4 with 4 K's and 9 LOB and absolving the entire team for being terrible at the same thing. .766 OPS with runners in scoring position in 2022 across the entire regular season, 134 plate appearances. Runner on third, less than two outs last season? Drove in the run 15 times in 26 plate appearances. So so much for "never?" Your eyes tell you what you want to see, they don't reflect reality. A lot. Let that roll off your tongue one more time. 0-4, 4 strikeouts and 9 LOB. Wow!!! Just horrendous, unfortunately. I would stop defending him and just let people vent on this thread until he hopefully somewhat rights the ship. I'll be ecstatic to give him kudos when that happens.
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Post by aztecryan on May 18, 2023 21:04:24 GMT -8
Yep. Like I said before, he's too passive with his swing decisions. He almost never swings at the first pitch. He's been elite at times not chasing out of the zone, but he's constantly behind in counts due to just never swinging. But, you said he was an average major league batter. Not in this very important category. Probably others, as well. You are known for cherry picking stats for your benefits, unfortunately. And you're known for not understanding virtually any of them. We use wRC+ to measure offense. Simple. You mentioned him never driving runners in (in one game) and said he was awful last year (I'm sure just looking at batting average) because he was actually solid with runners in scoring position last season. Not sure what you want, you brought it up.
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