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Post by johneaztec on Nov 20, 2021 21:39:59 GMT -8
I believe there are good and bad cops, and good and bad humans everywhere in all facets of life, but I don't paint every scenario as racist, or white privilege, etc, unless it justifies it. I look into the facts of the situation and make a judgement from there. Really doesn't seem to be the case considering you immediately jumped on the bandwagon at the beginning of this thread and then again as soon as you were told something that blatantly wasn't true. Ignoring White privilege is just denying reality. It exists in all facets of life, including the criminal system. Two men of different skin color can commit the same crime and the statistical odds will tell you the one who isn't white will get a longer sentence. If that is not White privilege, what would you call it? There's many factors that go into why someone may get a longer sentence, such as prior history, etc.... If you show me a case where EVERYTHING is equal and the black guy got a shorter sentence, then I would be right there with you screaming about injustice. I'm not saying that there's not any injustice being done in America, but I simply don't like it when people use the race card, or white privilege card in just about every scenario involving police officers, or in other high profile cases. It really bothers me when a white person is proven not guilty in a white on white crime, but only to have people say that he got off due to white privilege. People use the race card, and the white privilege card when it's a white person, on a person of color crime, and the white person was found innocent, even if the person is obviously innocent. Or if it's a white on white crime, and the defendant is proven innocent, the white privilege card comes out even if it's an obvious decision. Some people will find a way to make it a race issue. Very sad. My black friend, (who also happens to be my best friend for over 45 years and someone who is VERY successful and owns his own HR firm, and who is VERY intelligent and logical,) is someone whose opinion I value VERY much in all facets of life. You can make fun of our relationship and try to diminish his thoughts that he translated to me, but it won't work. It's a real thing. MANY Other blacks feel the same as he does, and are tired of race coming into EVERYTHING. Ridiculous. |
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Post by aztecryan on Nov 20, 2021 22:01:28 GMT -8
Really doesn't seem to be the case considering you immediately jumped on the bandwagon at the beginning of this thread and then again as soon as you were told something that blatantly wasn't true. Ignoring White privilege is just denying reality. It exists in all facets of life, including the criminal system. Two men of different skin color can commit the same crime and the statistical odds will tell you the one who isn't white will get a longer sentence. If that is not White privilege, what would you call it? There's many factors that go into why someone may get a longer sentence, such as prior history, etc.... If you show me a case where EVERYTHING is equal and the black guy got a shorter sentence, then I would be right there with you screaming about injustice. I'm not saying that there's not any injustice being done in America, but I simply don't like it when people use the race card, or white privilege card in just about every scenario involving police officers, or in other high profile cases. It really bothers me when a white person is proven not guilty in a white on white crime, but only to have people say that he got off due to white privilege. People use the race card, and the white privilege card when it's a white person, on a person of color crime, and the white person was found innocent, even if the person is obviously innocent. Or if it's a white on white crime, and the defendant is proven innocent, the white privilege card comes out even if it's an obvious decision. Some people will find a way to make it a race issue. Very sad. My black friend, (who also happens to be my best friend for over 45 years and someone who is VERY successful and owns his own HR firm, and who is VERY intelligent and logical,) is someone whose opinion I value VERY much in all facets of life. You can make fun of our relationship and try to diminish his thoughts that he translated to me, but it won't work. It's a real thing. MANY Other blacks feel the same as he does, and are tired of race coming into EVERYTHING. Ridiculous. I'm not the one doing it though...you are. You diminish him when you boil down nuance to "race card" and other conservative buzz words.. Many people share my perspective, too. And Rittenhouse being acquitted is a textbook example of White privilege and upholding supremacy in the justice system. It's not about Rittenhouse himself as I've said more than once. It's about an extensive pattern that has existed for decades of unequal punishment. Institutional whiteness. This rebuttal indicates to me you really don't want the truth because "everything being equal" is a farce. There's no such thing as equality in this system. I showed you statistics that plainly document that sentences are longer for people of color. You're free to believe what you want, but don't insult someone's intelligence by saying this kind of thing isn't real or it's just one example. I could write a novel about the Oscar Grant case. They even made an award winning movie out of it. One really important point here - Racism and "race card" are not the same thing. What I'm plainly trying to clarify is that if the circumstances were equal and Rittenhouse was NOT white, the entire situation changes dramatically. I shudder to think what his acquittal means for future cases that involve vigilantism. It's a really, really scary precedent. |
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Post by johneaztec on Nov 20, 2021 22:19:37 GMT -8
There's many factors that go into why someone may get a longer sentence, such as prior history, etc.... If you show me a case where EVERYTHING is equal and the black guy got a shorter sentence, then I would be right there with you screaming about injustice. I'm not saying that there's not any injustice being done in America, but I simply don't like it when people use the race card, or white privilege card in just about every scenario involving police officers, or in other high profile cases. It really bothers me when a white person is proven not guilty in a white on white crime, but only to have people say that he got off due to white privilege. People use the race card, and the white privilege card when it's a white person, on a person of color crime, and the white person was found innocent, even if the person is obviously innocent. Or if it's a white on white crime, and the defendant is proven innocent, the white privilege card comes out even if it's an obvious decision. Some people will find a way to make it a race issue. Very sad. My black friend, (who also happens to be my best friend for over 45 years and someone who is VERY successful and owns his own HR firm, and who is VERY intelligent and logical,) is someone whose opinion I value VERY much in all facets of life. You can make fun of our relationship and try to diminish his thoughts that he translated to me, but it won't work. It's a real thing. MANY Other blacks feel the same as he does, and are tired of race coming into EVERYTHING. Ridiculous. I'm not the one doing it though...you are. You diminish him when you boil down nuance to "race card" and other conservative buzz words.. Many people share my perspective, too. And Rittenhouse being acquitted is a textbook example of White privilege and upholding supremacy in the justice system. It's not about Rittenhouse himself as I've said more than once. It's about an extensive pattern that has existed for decades of unequal punishment. Institutional whiteness. This rebuttal indicates to me you really don't want the truth because "everything being equal" is a farce. There's no such thing as equality in this system. I showed you statistics that plainly document that sentences are longer for people of color. You're free to believe what you want, but don't insult someone's intelligence by saying this kind of thing isn't real or it's just one example. I could write a novel about the Oscar Grant case. They even made an award winning movie out of it. One really important point here - Racism and "race card" are not the same thing. What I'm plainly trying to clarify is that if the circumstances were equal and Rittenhouse was NOT white, the entire situation changes dramatically. I shudder to think what his acquittal means for future cases that involve vigilantism. It's a really, really scary precedent. With all of the evidence out there in the Rittenhouse case that it was blatantly self defense, which you even compensated and said that there could be a case made that it wasn't murder in another thread, I completely disagree with you that a person of color would be found guilty. It was an open and shut case of self defense and if a person, white or black were found to be guilty, all heck would have broke loose from all facets of life. Wasn't going to happen. This was too obvious. |
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Post by Obsidian Edge on Nov 21, 2021 5:29:16 GMT -8
John, I honestly suggest you just not engage with Ryan on this topic. I'm sure he feels likewise. Both of us have presented arguments ad-nauseum, but at the end of the day, he's not going to change his beliefs and you're just wasting your time. Despite very cogent arguments challenging his worldview that our police are dyed in the wool racists out to get all black people (a claim that when you think about it is absurd), he is a true believer and probably won't budge. So go enjoy your Sunday.
Ryan, a parting thought: real privilege certainly exists in our justice system. But it's reserved for the politically well-connected regardless of their race. I recommend you focus your righteous anger on that rather than getting distracted by skewed, poorly contextualized events and statistics designed to redirect your energies away from the real issues facing our society and electing the very people who benefit most from the privilege you claim to hate.
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Post by North County Aztec on Nov 21, 2021 7:31:04 GMT -8
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Post by aztecryan on Nov 21, 2021 10:27:38 GMT -8
I'm not the one doing it though...you are. You diminish him when you boil down nuance to "race card" and other conservative buzz words.. Many people share my perspective, too. And Rittenhouse being acquitted is a textbook example of White privilege and upholding supremacy in the justice system. It's not about Rittenhouse himself as I've said more than once. It's about an extensive pattern that has existed for decades of unequal punishment. Institutional whiteness. This rebuttal indicates to me you really don't want the truth because "everything being equal" is a farce. There's no such thing as equality in this system. I showed you statistics that plainly document that sentences are longer for people of color. You're free to believe what you want, but don't insult someone's intelligence by saying this kind of thing isn't real or it's just one example. I could write a novel about the Oscar Grant case. They even made an award winning movie out of it. One really important point here - Racism and "race card" are not the same thing. What I'm plainly trying to clarify is that if the circumstances were equal and Rittenhouse was NOT white, the entire situation changes dramatically. I shudder to think what his acquittal means for future cases that involve vigilantism. It's a really, really scary precedent. With all of the evidence out there in the Rittenhouse case that it was blatantly self defense, which you even compensated and said that there could be a case made that it wasn't murder in another thread, I completely disagree with you that a person of color would be found guilty. It was an open and shut case of self defense and if a person, white or black were found to be guilty, all heck would have broke loose from all facets of life. Wasn't going to happen. This was too obvious. The irony here is staggering as there have been numerous instances of Black citizens shot on their own property (Breonna Taylor, Atatiana Jefferson, Cameron Lamb) You lose the right to self-defense when you interject yourself into a dangerous situation looking for trouble with intentions to hurt people. That is NOT self-defense. And make no mistake, Rittenhouse's comments both before and after were obvious to his motives as well. Could not disagree further. He's George Zimmermann all over again. White supremacy reigns in the justice system. (And you'll immediately jump on that thinking I'm talking about the KKK or something, but no, two different concepts at work here) |
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Post by aztecryan on Nov 21, 2021 10:30:05 GMT -8
John, I honestly suggest you just not engage with Ryan on this topic. I'm sure he feels likewise. Both of us have presented arguments ad-nauseum, but at the end of the day, he's not going to change his beliefs and you're just wasting your time. Despite very cogent arguments challenging his worldview that our police are dyed in the wool racists out to get all black people (a claim that when you think about it is absurd), he is a true believer and probably won't budge. So go enjoy your Sunday. Ryan, a parting thought: real privilege certainly exists in our justice system. But it's reserved for the politically well-connected regardless of their race. I recommend you focus your righteous anger on that rather than getting distracted by skewed, poorly contextualized events and statistics designed to redirect your energies away from the real issues facing our society and electing the very people who benefit most from the privilege you claim to hate. I must have missed cogent arguments because all you've presented is half-baked analysis. Sorry, but the facts are on my side. The institutional killing of Black people is wrong. The end. |
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Post by aztecryan on Nov 21, 2021 10:31:06 GMT -8
Review the cases and get back to me. In the meantime, continue shouting into the wind about false equivalence. He's facing 30 years in prison. Did you miss that part? Please choose another hill to plant a flag on. |
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Post by aztecryan on Nov 21, 2021 10:39:33 GMT -8
John, I honestly suggest you just not engage with Ryan on this topic. I'm sure he feels likewise. Both of us have presented arguments ad-nauseum, but at the end of the day, he's not going to change his beliefs and you're just wasting your time. Despite very cogent arguments challenging his worldview that our police are dyed in the wool racists out to get all black people (a claim that when you think about it is absurd), he is a true believer and probably won't budge. So go enjoy your Sunday. Ryan, a parting thought: real privilege certainly exists in our justice system. But it's reserved for the politically well-connected regardless of their race. I recommend you focus your righteous anger on that rather than getting distracted by skewed, poorly contextualized events and statistics designed to redirect your energies away from the real issues facing our society and electing the very people who benefit most from the privilege you claim to hate. When the analysis isn't on your side, it becomes skewed all of a sudden. Nowhere does it say that all police are out to get Black people, either. Nicely framed, though. Imagine pretending that White privilege isn't real. Sorry, but I live on Earth. Is this supposed to be a real argument or defense? There are three different people in this thread who have made a host of excuses for the killing of a 12 year old boy. Not a violent predator, not a serial felon. A 12 year old boy. Those same three people have somehow decided that Kyle Rittenhouse is some kind of victim for putting himself in danger because he's a gun nut with a vigilante complex. Yeah, I don't think I'm the backwards one here at all, sorry folks. |
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Post by aztecryan on Nov 21, 2021 10:58:47 GMT -8
www.nytimes.com/2020/09/23/nyregion/nypd-arrests-race.htmlSo let's deal with some actual facts and not overdrawn hyperbole. This is the largest police department in the United States. Up until 2013, "stop and frisk" laws were legal in New York City until they were declared unconstitutional on the grounds of racial bias. That's how Kalief Browder was arrested in the first place, despite not committing a crime. It is a stone cold fact that these searches targeted Black people at a much higher rate. It's also a fact that the Black neighborhoods are patrolled at a much higher rate. And then there's this, straight from the study in this article. "Even after years of the police using a lighter approach, the study found that Black New Yorkers were still nearly six times more likely to be stopped or arrested in 2018 than white New Yorkers were. And the ratio has not changed in more than a decade, according to the report. In 2003, Mr. Bloomberg’s second year in office, it was exactly the same." But I'm just imagining this? It's a coincidence? You are far more likely to die at the hands of the police if you are not of my skin color. That's a gross statement to consider, but it's also statistically factual.
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Post by ptsdthor on Nov 21, 2021 11:02:54 GMT -8
This. Lidicrous and absurd. Could you imagine the field day a defense attorney would have with a black man pleading self defense after being chased and cornered by a reportedly crazed and racist white man with a criminal record, knocked down by a white mob as he fled for police protection, kicked in the face while down on the ground, hit in the head/neck with a very large skateboard by another white man, and then having another white man attempted to close with him with a hand gun pointed at his head? The reality would be that the DA would quickly assess the horrific optics and no charges would have ever been filed against him. Privilege indeed. |
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Post by uwphoto on Nov 21, 2021 11:10:37 GMT -8
This. Lidicrous and absurd. Could you imagine the field day a defense attorney would have with a black man pleading self defense after being chased and cornered by a reportedly crazed and racist white man with a criminal record, knocked down by a white mob as he fled for police protection, kicked in the face while down on the ground, hit in the head/neck with a very large skateboard by another white man, and then having another white man attempted to close with him with a hand gun pointed at his head? The reality would be that the DA would quickly assess the horrific optics and no charges would have ever been filed against him. Privilege indeed. "Fled for police protection" haha. The black dude with an AR-15 is running towards the cops for protection during a riot? I'm sure he would be welcome with open "arms". |
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Post by ptsdthor on Nov 21, 2021 12:49:28 GMT -8
This. Lidicrous and absurd. Could you imagine the field day a defense attorney would have with a black man pleading self defense after being chased and cornered by a reportedly crazed and racist white man with a criminal record, knocked down by a white mob as he fled for police protection, kicked in the face while down on the ground, hit in the head/neck with a very large skateboard by another white man, and then having another white man attempted to close with him with a hand gun pointed at his head? The reality would be that the DA would quickly assess the horrific optics and no charges would have ever been filed against him. Privilege indeed. "Fled for police protection" haha. The black dude with an AR-15 is running towards the cops for protection during a riot? I'm sure he would be welcome with open "arms". Right...the first thing the Kenosha police would do after the Jacob Blake incident would be to mow down a Black man in cold blood while his gun was pointed down and at no one  |
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Post by 84aztec96 on Nov 21, 2021 13:38:45 GMT -8
This. Lidicrous and absurd. Could you imagine the field day a defense attorney would have with a black man pleading self defense after being chased and cornered by a reportedly crazed and racist white man with a criminal record, knocked down by a white mob as he fled for police protection, kicked in the face while down on the ground, hit in the head/neck with a very large skateboard by another white man, and then having another white man attempted to close with him with a hand gun pointed at his head? The reality would be that the DA would quickly assess the horrific optics and no charges would have ever been filed against him. Privilege indeed. This is so true, and everyone knows it. |
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Post by 84aztec96 on Nov 21, 2021 14:01:37 GMT -8
On a side note, I appreciate you guys speaking up.
This case (and the Covington one) has really affected me. I knew what had happened almost immediately from my couch, yet the media didn't seem to know. Some of the stuff I am reading is just insane. The media coverage was unbelievable. Anyway, I used to just be quiet about things, but I'm definitely picking my moments to speak up.
This quote statement by Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn has stuck with me. I don't always stick to it. But more and more I'm willing to speak up even when it is awkward.
Live Not By Lies
Our way must be: Never knowingly support lies! Having understood where the lies begin (and many see this line differently)—step back from that gangrenous edge! Let us not glue back the flaking scales of the Ideology, not gather back its crumbling bones, nor patch together its decomposing garb, and we will be amazed how swiftly and helplessly the lies will fall away, and that which is destined to be naked will be exposed as such to the world.
And thus, overcoming our temerity, let each man choose: Will he remain a witting servant of the lies (needless to say, not due to natural predisposition, but in order to provide a living for the family, to rear the children in the spirit of lies!), or has the time come for him to stand straight as an honest man, worthy of the respect of his children and contemporaries? And from that day onward he:
· Will not write, sign, nor publish in any way, a single line distorting, so far as he can see, the truth;
· Will not utter such a line in private or in public conversation, nor read it from a crib sheet, nor speak it in the role of educator, canvasser, teacher, actor;
· Will not in painting, sculpture, photograph, technology, or music depict, support, or broadcast a single false thought, a single distortion of the truth as he discerns it;
· Will not cite in writing or in speech a single “guiding” quote for gratification, insurance, for his success at work, unless he fully shares the cited thought and believes that it fits the context precisely;
· Will not be forced to a demonstration or a rally if it runs counter to his desire and his will; will not take up and raise a banner or slogan in which he does not fully believe;
· Will not raise a hand in vote for a proposal which he does not sincerely support; will not vote openly or in secret ballot for a candidate whom he deems dubious or unworthy;
· Will not be impelled to a meeting where a forced and distorted discussion is expected to take place;
· Will at once walk out from a session, meeting, lecture, play, or film as soon as he hears the speaker utter a lie, ideological drivel, or shameless propaganda;
· Will not subscribe to, nor buy in retail, a newspaper or journal that distorts or hides the underlying facts.
This is by no means an exhaustive list of the possible and necessary ways of evading lies. But he who begins to cleanse himself will, with a cleansed eye, easily discern yet other opportunities.
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Post by johneaztec on Nov 21, 2021 14:02:03 GMT -8
With all of the evidence out there in the Rittenhouse case that it was blatantly self defense, which you even compensated and said that there could be a case made that it wasn't murder in another thread, I completely disagree with you that a person of color would be found guilty. It was an open and shut case of self defense and if a person, white or black were found to be guilty, all heck would have broke loose from all facets of life. Wasn't going to happen. This was too obvious. The irony here is staggering as there have been numerous instances of Black citizens shot on their own property (Breonna Taylor, Atatiana Jefferson, Cameron Lamb) You lose the right to self-defense when you interject yourself into a dangerous situation looking for trouble with intentions to hurt people. That is NOT self-defense. And make no mistake, Rittenhouse's comments both before and after were obvious to his motives as well. Could not disagree further. He's George Zimmermann all over again. White supremacy reigns in the justice system. (And you'll immediately jump on that thinking I'm talking about the KKK or something, but no, two different concepts at work here) I don't agree. Anybody can go anywhere they want and protect themselves. If you're not the aggressor and the one physically starting the fight, then you have every right to protect yourself in any manner available. If Rittenhouse was there, and he didn't have a gun, he may have been killed himself. He was physically attacked and had a gun pointed at him FIRST. What don't you get here? If you're going to say that he shouldn't have had his gun with him in the first place, you would be wrong. He had every legal right to have it on him. Leave him alone, and don't attack and everything would have been fine. I'm not going to go out there with a gun, but he had every right to if he wanted to, just as the violent rioters had the right to go out there as well, but they didn't have the right to physically attack him and point a gun at his head. The other's had zero right to attack him first, and that goes for all of the human race. Period. |
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Post by AztecWilliam on Nov 21, 2021 14:54:42 GMT -8
We do not lose if the trial gives both sides a chance to present their arguments and the jury thoughtfully considers the evidence. I think that was the case in the Rittehouse trial. AzWm And this is completely blind to the reality of what happened in actuality. But if you can sleep comfortably, I guess that's great? We can/should do better than this. Well, what did happen? I did not see all the evidence and neither did you. What I did see is that the case was a lot more complicated than many media people claimed immediately after the fact. And it was not just segments of the media. For instance, the prosecutor said to the jury that Rittenhouse was chasing one of the men he shot. Video showed decisively that it was the other way around. There are no heroes in this case. Rittenhouse should not have arrived on the scene with a gun. People who were rioting and setting buildings on fire should not have been been breaking the law. The riots of 2020 reminds us that the job of local law enforcement is to stop riots, and if they are overwhelmed, the job of the political leaders is to call in the national guard to make things right. I will leave it to others to judge whether those charged with protecting law-abiding citizens faithfully fulfilled their responsibilities. This much is clear to me; as a nation and a people we cannot afford to be hit with many more of these mostly peaceful protests that end up destroying thousands of businesses and the jobs of many citizens who just want to live normal lives. No nation is without flaws. The United States of America, as is the case with all nations, has plenty of them. Working diligently and peacefully to persuade citizens how those flaws can be remedied is what we need. Throwing rocks at cops and looting and burning businesses is not the answer. AzWm |
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Post by AztecWilliam on Nov 21, 2021 15:01:09 GMT -8
Okay, have it you way. If you do not like our current system, what is your suggestion for a replacement? AzWm I'd like you to actually respond to the theme of injustice and admit you're not interested in impartial truth. Quit deflecting. What makes you think that I, in any way, am not in favor of impartial truth and a just judicial system? The hard part is for the vast majority of a population to agree on what constitutes a just system. To me, is clear to me that some on the far-Left and I have very different definitions of justice. AzWm |
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Post by aztecryan on Nov 21, 2021 15:17:43 GMT -8
And this is completely blind to the reality of what happened in actuality. But if you can sleep comfortably, I guess that's great? We can/should do better than this. Well, what did happen? I did not see all the evidence and neither did you. What I did see is that the case was a lot more complicated than many media people claimed immediately after the fact. And it was not just segments of the media. For instance, the prosecutor said to the jury that Rittenhouse was chasing one of the men he shot. Video showed decisively that it was the other way around. There are no heroes in this case. Rittenhouse should not have arrived on the scene with a gun. People who were rioting and setting buildings on fire should not have been been breaking the law. The riots of 2020 reminds us that the job of local law enforcement is to stop riots, and if they are overwhelmed, the job of the political leaders is to call in the national guard to make things right. I will leave it to others to judge whether those charged with protecting law-abiding citizens faithfully fulfilled their responsibilities. This much is clear to me; as a nation and a people we cannot afford to be hit with many more of these mostly peaceful protests that end up destroying thousands of businesses and the jobs of many citizens who just want to live normal lives. No nation is without flaws. The United States of America, as is the case with all nations, has plenty of them. Working diligently and peacefully to persuade citizens how those flaws can be remedied is what we need. Throwing rocks at cops and looting and burning businesses is not the answer. AzWm Good grief. |
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Post by AztecWilliam on Nov 21, 2021 15:18:05 GMT -8
Congratulations, you're one of the those will reach and TRY to make a race case out of of a trial that had zero people of color involved. Perpetuator much? Teacher much? Sheesh. Talk about someone who knows zero about how to conduct themselves. Sheesh How do you not understand this? Let's try it again, with smaller words. *This case* is not about individual racism. This VERDICT is another example of white privilege manifesting itself in plain view. If you seriously do not believe as you stated that the verdict would not have been different had Rittenhouse not been white, you're lying or delusional. If your position is that you view no issues within the justice system, you're just wrong. Which trial did you watch, Ryan? Not the one in which the prosecution made demonstrably false claims and in which the judge had to admonish the former for unprofessional conduct. Not the one in which one of the prosecution witnesses turned out to make the case for the defense. There have been, and sadly will probably be in the future, trials in which your case would make more sense. For me, the bottom line is this. In Kenosha, the local officials did basically nothing when the riot got out of hand. NO riot should be allowed to go past day one. The national guard should have been brought in within a few hours, and in strength. Instead, the official reaction to the first riots was inaction, which sent a signal to the anarchists that this was their chance. I was a grad student at UCLA living in Santa Monica in '65 when that riot was going on. South Central LA has never really recovered from that. So much for "no justice no peace". AzWm |
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