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Post by AztecWilliam on Nov 28, 2020 22:24:59 GMT -8
What I find interesting, and unfortunate, is that when I post what I think are ideas of importance with respect to this country's political health, they are ignored. I would sure like to know, for instance, how others react to this one: No country has a future when people start to believe that those who voted for the other party are enemies rather than simply Americans who do not see things the way we do.AzWm I think it's even more applicable to the right-wing, extreme views that have been launched over the last four years and even moreso in the last four weeks. There are people who believe actively that Biden stole this election. There are actually citizens of this country that believe Trump has done nothing wrong since 2016. There are people who actually believe Detroit has more votes than it does people. When you exploit the masses as Trump has done, to feed into paranoia, falsehoods, racism, hatred and divide, that IS actual danger. It undermines every single foundation that this nation was built on. The Georgia Secretary of State (who Trump loved in 2018, yet now claims to not know him) is getting death threats, sexualized malice from outsiders targeting his wife...because he certified the election? If you're going to throw stones at one party, have the moral backbone here to point fingers at the other side, who is you know, actually guilty of tampering with votes, intimidating voters, disenfranchising hundreds of thousands of Black voters and doing it right in front of your eyes, with no attempt to hide it. I have a question : Why is the Trump campaign in Michigan so focused on Detroit and Wayne County, which is predominantly Black, yet completely ignoring the suburbs where Trump lost ground with white voters? Coincidence? This is Trump's America. Ryan, you really scare me. Seriously. First of all, there is no way in hell that Trump won the 2016 election because of the Russians. This is an excuse the Dems used to avoid taking the blame for nominating a truly loathsome candidate who is as cynical as they get. Who can admire a person who claims to defend women but who made every effort in the book to destroy women whom her equally unscrupulous husband abused? As for your "why don't you criticize both sides," I do in fact criticize the GOP on a number of counts. Have done so for over 40 years. Why do you think I changed my registration to Libertarian in '76 and have voted accordingly ever since then (with the exception of '88)? Even in terms of traditionally conservative values the GOP is currently pretty much worthless. Not all Republican office holders, but way too many of them. There are plenty of DC Swamp Creatures in the Grand Old Party. As for Trump's efforts to challenge the outcome of this election, I'll start by saying that I think it's very unlikely that Biden did not win. But there are a number of facts that are of concern, for future elections if nothing else. Let me suggest a perfectly valid explanation that has nothing to do with racism. The fact is that the Democrats have controlled most of the big cities for generations. One party rule, whether on the local or national level is bad. Maybe not for a term or two, or even a decade. But when one party rules for 20, 30 years or more, abuses are almost guaranteed. It makes no difference which party is in control. If you can't see that fact, I wonder what you can see. There are reports of people showing up to vote and being told that they had already voted by mail. In other cases there were more votes counted than registered voters who lived in the jurisdiction. In still other cases, there are reports of late arriving ballots with only the presidential line being filled in. Hmm. Don't those cases, if verified, make you just a bit curious? Shouldn't they at least be investigated carefully? Or perhaps the stories of Chicago Mayor Richard J. Daley basically controlling election outcomes are just propaganda. One of the things that would give voters a greater confidence in our system would be a very strenuous effort to purge voter roles of the names of persons who have died or moved away. Try that in Detroit or Chicago and you will instantly be called a racist. All this, as I said, probably does not change the outcome if one candidate wins my many thousands of votes. But it becomes a serious problem if the difference between candidates is a handful or at most a few hundred votes in stead of a few thousand. Examples: 2000 U.S. President: Florida 1971 Virginia House of Delegates 2017 Virginia House of Delegates 2015 Mississippi House of Rep 1974 New Hampshire U.S. Senate 1962 Minnesota Gov Many of those were virtual ties, or were separated by a handful of votes. Wikipedia has a long list of such elections, domestic and foreign. You ought to read a few of those. Some of the stories are real doozies! Representative government is destroyed when voters become so cynical that they assume it's all rigged. Both the Democrats' claim that Trump was illegitimate in 2016 and current claims that Trump actually won with a majority of all votes cast do this country no good. AzWm
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Post by aztecryan on Nov 28, 2020 22:57:02 GMT -8
I think it's even more applicable to the right-wing, extreme views that have been launched over the last four years and even moreso in the last four weeks. There are people who believe actively that Biden stole this election. There are actually citizens of this country that believe Trump has done nothing wrong since 2016. There are people who actually believe Detroit has more votes than it does people. When you exploit the masses as Trump has done, to feed into paranoia, falsehoods, racism, hatred and divide, that IS actual danger. It undermines every single foundation that this nation was built on. The Georgia Secretary of State (who Trump loved in 2018, yet now claims to not know him) is getting death threats, sexualized malice from outsiders targeting his wife...because he certified the election? If you're going to throw stones at one party, have the moral backbone here to point fingers at the other side, who is you know, actually guilty of tampering with votes, intimidating voters, disenfranchising hundreds of thousands of Black voters and doing it right in front of your eyes, with no attempt to hide it. I have a question : Why is the Trump campaign in Michigan so focused on Detroit and Wayne County, which is predominantly Black, yet completely ignoring the suburbs where Trump lost ground with white voters? Coincidence? This is Trump's America. Ryan, you really scare me. Seriously. First of all, there is no way in hell that Trump won the 2016 election because of the Russians. This is an excuse the Dems used to deflect taking the blame for nominating a truly loathsome candidate who is as cynical as they get. Who can admire a person who claims to defend women but who made every effort in the book to destroy women whom her equally unscrupulous husband abused? As for your "why don't you criticize both sides," I do in fact criticize the GOP on a number of counts. Have done so for over 40 years. Why do you think I changed my registration to Libertarian in '76 and have voted accordingly ever since then (with the exception of '88)? Even in terms of traditionally conservative values the GOP is currently pretty much worthless. Not all Republican office holders, but way too many of them. There are plenty of DC Swamp Creatures in the Grand Old Party. As for Trump's efforts to challenge the outcome of this election, I'll start by saying that I think it's very unlikely that Biden did not win. But there are a number of facts that are of concern, for future elections if nothing else. Let me suggest a perfectly valid explanation that has nothing to do with racism. The fact is that the Democrats have controlled most of the big cities for generations. One party rule, whether on the local or national level is bad. Maybe not for a term or two, or even a decade. But when one party rules for 20, 30 years or more, abuses are almost guaranteed. It makes no difference which party is in control. If you can't see that fact, I wonder what you can see. There are reports of people showing up to vote and being told that they had already voted by mail. In other cases there were more votes counted than registered voters who lived in the jurisdiction. In still other cases, there are reports of late arriving ballots with only the presidential line being filled in. Hmm. Don't those cases, if verified, make you just a bit curious? Shouldn't they at least be investigated carefully? Or perhaps the stories of Chicago Mayor Richard J. Daley basically controlling election outcomes are just propaganda. One of the things that would give voters a greater confidence in our system would be a very strenuous effort to purge voter roles of the names of persons who have died or moved away. Try that in Detroit or Chicago and you will instantly be called a racist. All this, as I said, probably does not change the outcome if one candidate wins my many thousands of votes. But it becomes a serious problem if the difference between candidates is a handful or at most a few hundred votes in stead of a few thousand. Examples: 2000 U.S. President: Florida 1971 Virginia House of Delegates 2017 Virginia House of Delegates 2015 Mississippi House of Rep 1974 New Hampshire U.S. Senate 1962 Minnesota Gov Many of those were virtual ties, or were separated by a handful of votes. Wikipedia has a long list of such elections, domestic and foreign. You ought to read a few of those. Some of the stories are real doozies! Representative government is destroyed when voters become so cynical that they assume it's all rigged. Both the Democrats' claim that Trump was illegitimate in 2016 and current claims that Trump actually won with a majority of all votes cast do this country no good. AzWm (Breaking my long-winded rule here) My views are actually very moderate in comparison to some of the things I have personally witnessed. There is nothing to be "afraid" of because the truth is always the truth, especially now. So let's break down your walls here... Russia, unfortunately, did in fact help Trump win. This was confirmed in December of 2016 by our own intelligence, as well as our allies. www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-election-cyber-russia-idUSKBN13Z05BA reminder that a commission was convened after 2016 by the president to investigate specific instances of voter fraud. They found....nothing of note. Just like the countless other publications and election experts who universally agree that voter fraud is largely a myth. Saying Trump won because of Clinton when Clinton won the popular vote by the largest margin in history, prior to today, is...something else. But sure, okay. "There are a number of facts that are of concern"....And yet you didn't mention a single fact in your argument. There are baseless claims, yes. There are actual confirmed reports of Republicans voting more than once (or attempting to) and numerous reports of Trump supporters harassing, intimidating and blocking voters from their ability to vote at polling stations. I'll wait for the outrage to subside. Democrats control most of the major cities because urban areas tend to be more Democratic. Not a new phenomenon, really. Rural areas tend to be more conservative. Just the way the ideological split tends to go. Nothingburger. Good, bad or otherwise. I've already addressed the concepts you bring up - There are no verified reports to my knowledge of more votes than people in any district in America. None. This is extremely easy to verify, as well. There were not, repeat not, more votes cast in Detroit than people who live there. 100% false, a blatant lie propped up by the Trump campaign. Point #2 - President only ballots? Common in every election. It's called undervoting. It happens in every single election. In 2016, 136 million plus ballots were cast for president. Yet only 131 million of those ballots voted for a member of the House of Representatives. It's laziness/complacency/voter preference, but it's not rare at all and doesn't indicate any type of fraud. Decased people vote in every election. It happens. Should the process be streamlined? Probably. Does it tend to impact direct election results? Doubtful. And yes, if you tried to purge rolls in Black strongholds, as much as those voters tend to get disenfranchised (like by the president's lackey in 2020)...it would spark some blowback. And finally, no. 2016 is proven and on the record that Trump won, in some form or fashion, with Russian interference. To what degree? We don't know. But the important thing is that it DID happen. As of today, there is absolutely nothing verifiable or concrete that this election was "rigged" or illegitimate, unless you count the Republican voter fraud and voter suppression in multiple states. What's truly dangerous is the harm being done by the Trump campaign to circumvent the legal system, to tamper and interfere with legislatures, to install a Supreme Court justice in the fall of an election year for the first time in history for the express purpose of trying to overthrow an election that.. Was. Not. Even. Close.
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Post by aztecryan on Nov 28, 2020 23:20:24 GMT -8
In the interest of fairness though, if you can source any of your objections (reputably), then I'd be willing to actually listen to these objections. So far all I have seen is regurgitated Republican propaganda. Wayne County turnout? 62%. According to Rudy Giuliani, it was...300%? Which sounds more likely to you?
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Post by AztecWilliam on Nov 29, 2020 0:10:37 GMT -8
I offered no opinion on the charges I mentioned. Whether I believe they are true is not the point. The fact is that they are out there and must be dealt with adequately.
Some Dems dismiss these claims out of hand. That is a mistake. They may in fact be baseless. In any event, if they are not given due diligence, many voters will assume that the claims are true. I hope you understand that such a feeling on the part of many voters does damage to our political system. The same for charges that Trump was a traitor conspiring with another country. Trump is a very flawed man and was an inadequately prepared candidate. That's bad enough. A traitor he is not.
Hate to continue to discuss 2016, but you are incredibly naïve if you think it was the Russians that put Trump in the White House. The Democrats would probably have won with a different candidate. But no, they had to pick the one with the worst chance of becoming POTUS. I believed, and stated at the time, that when I saw who the candidates were I was sure that the country was in for trouble. I haven't changed my mind on that.
AzWm
PS: I really hope that every single charge being made by Trump's team is baseless. Frankly, I would be surprised if there were no irregularities. Those things do sometimes happen. (Haven't there been convictions for voter fraud in several places recently?) But we should do our best to prevent them in the future. We could start by making sure that all changes in voting procedures be made by legislatures, as prescribed by the Constitution. And, importantly, before elections, not when they are taking place. If you don't think that Covid-19 has been used as an excuse to change the rules on the fly, you are really naïve.
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Post by aztecryan on Nov 29, 2020 11:23:38 GMT -8
I offered no opinion on the charges I mentioned. Whether I believe they are true is not the point. The fact is that they are out there and must be dealt with adequately. Some Dems dismiss these claims out of hand. That is a mistake. They may in fact be baseless. In any event, if they are not given due diligence, many voters will assume that the claims are true. I hope you understand that such a feeling on the part of many voters does damage to our political system. The same for charges that Trump was a traitor conspiring with another country. Trump is a very flawed man and was an inadequately prepared candidate. That's bad enough. A traitor he is not. Hate to continue to discuss 2016, but you are incredibly naïve if you think it was the Russians that put Trump in the White House. The Democrats would probably have won with a different candidate. But no, they had to pick the one with the worst chance of becoming POTUS. I believed, and stated at the time, that when I saw who the candidates were I was sure that the country was in for trouble. I haven't changed my mind on that. AzWm PS: I really hope that every single charge being made by Trump's team is baseless. Frankly, I would be surprised if there were no irregularities. Those things do sometimes happen. (Haven't there been convictions for voter fraud in several places recently?) But we should do our best to prevent them in the future. We could start by making sure that all changes in voting procedures be made by legislatures, as prescribed by the Constitution. And, importantly, before elections, not when they are taking place. If you don't think that Covid-19 has been used as an excuse to change the rules on the fly, you are really naïve. I can't even begin to fathom where you're at to post something so irrational. You're denying basic facts that have already been confirmed by multiple countries. There is video of the Duma erupting in cheer after Trump was confirmed to have won. Is that just...happenstance? And you're calling me naive? Good grief. Literally everything in your post is either false, ignorant....or both. Of course COVID has played a role, among many other things. We're in a public health crisis that has been mismanaged by a narcissistic egomaniac obsesssed with self-aggrandizing. If the president, had, you know...done his job? Then we likely wouldn't even be talking about this. Trump's failures cost him his job. What's "out there" is baseless conspiracy, mathematical failures and projection. There's a reason why cases are being tossed out, without merit and with prejudice, even as the administration shops for favorable judges. We already know actual widespread voter fraud is a myth. Studies have been conducted, experts have been convened and it's not difficult to find those assessments. And as I've mentioned already, there are people who actively believe Biden stole this election. Those cultists will not change their mind, even if an investigation proves it wrong. It's too late now, with Trump spreading false information religiously from his Twitter. The sheep are led to the slaughter by their leader. Spoiler alert : Donald Trump IS a traitor. He swore an oath to uphold the Constitution and faithfully execute his duties. Not sure where you have been since 2016, but he's failed miserably to uphold that oath. If you intend to argue that, then you're even more naive than you think I am. There are dozens of examples to illustrate my point - Whether it's Russian bounties on soldiers, the gassing of protesters, undermining the integrity of election(s) or a litany of other offenses.
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Post by aztecryan on Nov 29, 2020 13:31:08 GMT -8
These are the types of people that are actually dangerous, by and large.
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Post by uwphoto on Nov 29, 2020 15:24:32 GMT -8
These are the types of people that are actually dangerous, by and large. guaranteed cult member...perhaps a higher up.
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Post by aztecryan on Nov 29, 2020 19:31:31 GMT -8
Unhinged.
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Post by William L. Rupp on Nov 29, 2020 22:17:11 GMT -8
Well, here we go again. Okay, I'll take you on, point by point.
I can't even begin to fathom where you're at to post something so irrational. You're denying basic facts that have already been confirmed by multiple countries. And you're calling me naive? Good grief. Literally everything in your post is either false, ignorant....or both. Of course COVID has played a role, among many other things. If the president, had, you know...done his job? Then we likely wouldn't even be talking about this. Trump's failures cost him his job.
I consider this to be an urban legend. If I mention Trump's travel ban, you will dismiss it by saying that it was ineffective. Perhaps it was, but are you also saying that there should NOT have been a ban? Which was it; was the ban ineffective or was it a bad idea? I'm open to persuasion on that point. (I'll remind you that the ban was condemned by various Democrats on the grounds of its being racist, xenophobic, or something. Some of those same Dems were inviting people to go downtown and mingle.) My point, which should be obvious, is that it was an effort to deal with the pandemic. Perhaps it was ineffective. If so, it would not be the first time that a well-intentioned government effort sell short. Are we forgetting Operation Warp Speed? I suppose Trump gets no credit for that. (I'm waiting for you to explain how a POTUS does not get credit for good things done on his watch if his name if Trump.) Perhaps Trump did not do all he should have to fight this pandemic. But to intimate, as you do in your last post, that he did nothing is not accurate.
My own opinion is that the President might have been more forceful in warning the public. But I also believe that Americans have been aware of the need to take precautions for months. That many are still not taking those precautions is on them, not on the President.
What's "out there" is baseless conspiracy, mathematical failures and projection. We already know actual widespread voter fraud is a myth. Studies have been conducted, experts have been convened and it's not difficult to find those assessments. And as I've mentioned already, there are people who actively believe Biden stole this election. Those cultists will not change their mind, even if an investigation proves it wrong. It's too late now, with Trump spreading false information religiously from his Twitter.
Well, voter fraud does occur. That is a fact. Widespread voter fraud? Perhaps not, but as I have pointed out, the fraud does not have to change many votes if an election is almost or exactly 50/50. Most of he examples I posted ended up being decided by a fewer votes than you or I have on each hand. For that reason we must constantly re-examine voting procedures with a view to making future elections more fair and more secure.
I have not argued that the charges of widespread voter fraud are valid. What I do say is that every charge made in the form of a lawsuit must be examined carefully and according to applicable laws. What's wrong with that? It is every American's right to seek redress for what they consider to be grievances. That includes Donald Trump, no matter what you think of him. Try to understand that it is not my intention to defend him, especially in cases where I myself find his behavior objectionable. But it would be a big mistake is to reject the claims of voter fraud out of hand, as some on the Left have argued.
Some of the claims made in public by Trump's legal team are indeed over the top. I believe one such was the claim that Trump had received more votes that Joe Biden. I reject that claim, but your or my opinion is not the issue. The fact is that the team has failed to offer evidence in court to support the more extreme charges. They say one thing before the cameras and then say something different before the judge.
There may be people who till their dying day think that Trump was cheated, no matter how many times courts rule against him. (There may also be people who till their dying day think that Trump was a Russian spy, no matter that no evidence has been brought forth to prove that charge.) Despite that, I believe that it is very important to let the legal process take its course in these cases. Just because some people can never be convinced does not mean that we should not let the President have his day in court.
Spoiler alert : Donald Trump IS a traitor. He swore an oath to uphold the Constitution and faithfully execute his duties. Not sure where you have been since 2016, but he's failed miserably to uphold that oath. If you intend to argue that, then you're even more naive than you think I am. There are dozens of examples to illustrate my point.
No, Ryan, he is not a traitor. You may think that is true all you want, but your individual opinion, even the opinion of many thousands, does not make it true. Only if convicted in a court of law can one correctly be said to be a traitor. I will remind you that the Democrats who impeached Trump did not include treason in their articles of impeachment. I wonder why not.
Your belief that DJT did not uphold his oath of office only counts to the degree that you, and other like-minded citizens, acted upon that belief in the campaign to prevent his re-election. Over 70 million voters did not share your evaluation of the man, of course. Your beef is with them, not me.
AzWm
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Post by aztecryan on Nov 29, 2020 23:17:34 GMT -8
Well, here we go again. Okay, I'll take you on, point by point. I can't even begin to fathom where you're at to post something so irrational. You're denying basic facts that have already been confirmed by multiple countries. And you're calling me naive? Good grief. Literally everything in your post is either false, ignorant....or both. Of course COVID has played a role, among many other things. If the president, had, you know...done his job? Then we likely wouldn't even be talking about this. Trump's failures cost him his job.I consider this to be an urban legend. If I mention Trump's travel ban, you will dismiss it by saying that it was ineffective. Perhaps it was, but are you also saying that there should NOT have been a ban? Which was it; was the ban ineffective or was it a bad idea? I'm open to persuasion on that point. (I'll remind you that the ban was condemned by various Democrats on the grounds of its being racist, xenophobic, or something. Some of those same Dems were inviting people to go downtown and mingle.) My point, which should be obvious, is that it was an effort to deal with the pandemic. Perhaps it was ineffective. If so, it would not be the first time that a well-intentioned government effort sell short. Are we forgetting Operation Warp Speed? I suppose Trump gets no credit for that. (I'm waiting for you to explain how a POTUS does not get credit for good things done on his watch if his name if Trump.) Perhaps Trump did not do all he should have to fight this pandemic. But to intimate, as you do in your last post, that he did nothing is not accurate. My own opinion is that the President might have been more forceful in warning the public. But I also believe that Americans have been aware of the need to take precautions for months. That many are still not taking those precautions is on them, not on the President. What's "out there" is baseless conspiracy, mathematical failures and projection. We already know actual widespread voter fraud is a myth. Studies have been conducted, experts have been convened and it's not difficult to find those assessments. And as I've mentioned already, there are people who actively believe Biden stole this election. Those cultists will not change their mind, even if an investigation proves it wrong. It's too late now, with Trump spreading false information religiously from his Twitter.
Well, voter fraud does occur. That is a fact. Widespread voter fraud? Perhaps not, but as I have pointed out, the fraud does not have to change many votes if an election is almost or exactly 50/50. Most of he examples I posted ended up being decided by a fewer votes than you or I have on each hand. For that reason we must constantly re-examine voting procedures with a view to making future elections more fair and more secure. I have not argued that the charges of widespread voter fraud are valid. What I do say is that every charge made in the form of a lawsuit must be examined carefully and according to applicable laws. What's wrong with that? It is every American's right to seek redress for what they consider to be grievances. That includes Donald Trump, no matter what you think of him. Try to understand that it is not my intention to defend him, especially in cases where I myself find his behavior objectionable. But it would be a big mistake is to reject the claims of voter fraud out of hand, as some on the Left have argued. Some of the claims made in public by Trump's legal team are indeed over the top. I believe one such was the claim that Trump had received more votes that Joe Biden. I reject that claim, but your or my opinion is not the issue. The fact is that the team has failed to offer evidence in court to support the more extreme charges. They say one thing before the cameras and then say something different before the judge. There may be people who till their dying day think that Trump was cheated, no matter how many times courts rule against him. (There may also be people who till their dying day think that Trump was a Russian spy, no matter that no evidence has been brought forth to prove that charge.) Despite that, I believe that it is very important to let the legal process take its course in these cases. Just because some people can never be convinced does not mean that we should not let the President have his day in court. Spoiler alert : Donald Trump IS a traitor. He swore an oath to uphold the Constitution and faithfully execute his duties. Not sure where you have been since 2016, but he's failed miserably to uphold that oath. If you intend to argue that, then you're even more naive than you think I am. There are dozens of examples to illustrate my point.No, Ryan, he is not a traitor. You may think that is true all you want, but your individual opinion, even the opinion of many thousands, does not make it true. Only if convicted in a court of law can one correctly be said to be a traitor. I will remind you that the Democrats who impeached Trump did not include treason in their articles of impeachment. I wonder why not. Your belief that DJT did not uphold his oath of office only counts to the degree that you, and other like-minded citizens, acted upon that belief in the campaign to prevent his re-election. Over 70 million voters did not share your evaluation of the man, of course. Your beef is with them, not me. AzWm Sad. Why, why is there a a seemingly obsessed need with giving him credit like it matters at all? It's all about him, all the time. Starving for the validation of the world. Notice how you didn't bother addressing the beginning of my post at all? Where intelligence agencies confirmed Russian interference on Trump's behalf? Omission noted. Regarding the travel ban, which I've probably answered seven times by now - It was completely ineffective and far too late in the process to have any real effect. That's not urban legend, those are facts rooted in statistics. It wasn't a comprehensive ban, therefore, hundreds of thousands of people flew back here, without being screened/questioned/isolated/quarantined. The virus was already here. The European travel ban, again, not a comprehensive measure (UK exempt) was likewise ineffective. As for it being "racist" - Well, when you're constantly spouting off "Wuhan flu" and "China virus", surrounded by actual racists like Peter Navarro...Yeah, that's not politically, socially or in any other realm acceptable. (Plenty of tweets remain to verify this, FYI)...Here are the facts on the "ban" so you can see how your perspective doesn't add up to what happened. www.factcheck.org/2020/03/the-facts-on-trumps-travel-restrictions/Regarding Operation Warp Speed, as mentioned, Trump partnered with Moderna on a vaccine on January 13th, 2020. Note that date, as it's a week before the first case was announced here. Too bad he was briefed in OCTOBER, right? He spent the next several weeks/months denying the virus was serious, denying science, jeopardizing the lives of Americans, picking fights with government leadership, attacking anyone with a dissenting opinion. Here's a timeline of events, so you can see reality. doggett.house.gov/media-center/blog-posts/timeline-trump-s-coronavirus-responsesI don't agree with pretty much anything you wrote, but I don't really want to spend the effort to refute the same talking points that you can't lose sight of. Donald Trump is a con artist, a fraud, a grifter and a traitor. Your opinion of what qualifies as such is irrelevant, as the FACTS are the only thing that matter. Fact : Russian interference to undermine the election on the president's behalf in 2016 was confirmed. Fact : Trump fired the cybersecurity chief, Chris Krebs, just a few weeks ago, for stating this election (2020) was fair and secure. Fact : Trump's COVID response, including installing Mike Pence as task force leader, an unqualified Jared Kushner in charge of the federal stockpile and other events (like trying to hijack supplies through FEMA) cost a countless amount of lives. Those facts alone make him a traitor to his office and the people he governs. I think the horse has been beaten enough for now.
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Post by uwphoto on Nov 30, 2020 5:40:20 GMT -8
Well, here we go again. Okay, I'll take you on, point by point. I can't even begin to fathom where you're at to post something so irrational. You're denying basic facts that have already been confirmed by multiple countries. And you're calling me naive? Good grief. Literally everything in your post is either false, ignorant....or both. Of course COVID has played a role, among many other things. If the president, had, you know...done his job? Then we likely wouldn't even be talking about this. Trump's failures cost him his job.I consider this to be an urban legend. If I mention Trump's travel ban, you will dismiss it by saying that it was ineffective. Perhaps it was, but are you also saying that there should NOT have been a ban? Which was it; was the ban ineffective or was it a bad idea? I'm open to persuasion on that point. (I'll remind you that the ban was condemned by various Democrats on the grounds of its being racist, xenophobic, or something. Some of those same Dems were inviting people to go downtown and mingle.) My point, which should be obvious, is that it was an effort to deal with the pandemic. Perhaps it was ineffective. If so, it would not be the first time that a well-intentioned government effort sell short. Are we forgetting Operation Warp Speed? I suppose Trump gets no credit for that. (I'm waiting for you to explain how a POTUS does not get credit for good things done on his watch if his name if Trump.) Perhaps Trump did not do all he should have to fight this pandemic. But to intimate, as you do in your last post, that he did nothing is not accurate. My own opinion is that the President might have been more forceful in warning the public. But I also believe that Americans have been aware of the need to take precautions for months. That many are still not taking those precautions is on them, not on the President. What's "out there" is baseless conspiracy, mathematical failures and projection. We already know actual widespread voter fraud is a myth. Studies have been conducted, experts have been convened and it's not difficult to find those assessments. And as I've mentioned already, there are people who actively believe Biden stole this election. Those cultists will not change their mind, even if an investigation proves it wrong. It's too late now, with Trump spreading false information religiously from his Twitter.
Well, voter fraud does occur. That is a fact. Widespread voter fraud? Perhaps not, but as I have pointed out, the fraud does not have to change many votes if an election is almost or exactly 50/50. Most of he examples I posted ended up being decided by a fewer votes than you or I have on each hand. For that reason we must constantly re-examine voting procedures with a view to making future elections more fair and more secure. I have not argued that the charges of widespread voter fraud are valid. What I do say is that every charge made in the form of a lawsuit must be examined carefully and according to applicable laws. What's wrong with that? It is every American's right to seek redress for what they consider to be grievances. That includes Donald Trump, no matter what you think of him. Try to understand that it is not my intention to defend him, especially in cases where I myself find his behavior objectionable. But it would be a big mistake is to reject the claims of voter fraud out of hand, as some on the Left have argued. Some of the claims made in public by Trump's legal team are indeed over the top. I believe one such was the claim that Trump had received more votes that Joe Biden. I reject that claim, but your or my opinion is not the issue. The fact is that the team has failed to offer evidence in court to support the more extreme charges. They say one thing before the cameras and then say something different before the judge. There may be people who till their dying day think that Trump was cheated, no matter how many times courts rule against him. (There may also be people who till their dying day think that Trump was a Russian spy, no matter that no evidence has been brought forth to prove that charge.) Despite that, I believe that it is very important to let the legal process take its course in these cases. Just because some people can never be convinced does not mean that we should not let the President have his day in court. Spoiler alert : Donald Trump IS a traitor. He swore an oath to uphold the Constitution and faithfully execute his duties. Not sure where you have been since 2016, but he's failed miserably to uphold that oath. If you intend to argue that, then you're even more naive than you think I am. There are dozens of examples to illustrate my point.No, Ryan, he is not a traitor. You may think that is true all you want, but your individual opinion, even the opinion of many thousands, does not make it true. Only if convicted in a court of law can one correctly be said to be a traitor. I will remind you that the Democrats who impeached Trump did not include treason in their articles of impeachment. I wonder why not. Your belief that DJT did not uphold his oath of office only counts to the degree that you, and other like-minded citizens, acted upon that belief in the campaign to prevent his re-election. Over 70 million voters did not share your evaluation of the man, of course. Your beef is with them, not me. AzWm of course he's a traitor William. Insinuating that the FBI and the DOJ could be in on the "Fraud" election results is treason. This as America struggles with the worst pandemic since 1918. What a disgusting POS. He deserves jail at a minimum. Jail only because I can't say what I'd really like to see happen to him.
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Post by AztecWilliam on Nov 30, 2020 10:28:38 GMT -8
Well, here we go again. Okay, I'll take you on, point by point. I can't even begin to fathom where you're at to post something so irrational. You're denying basic facts that have already been confirmed by multiple countries. And you're calling me naive? Good grief. Literally everything in your post is either false, ignorant....or both. Of course COVID has played a role, among many other things. If the president, had, you know...done his job? Then we likely wouldn't even be talking about this. Trump's failures cost him his job.I consider this to be an urban legend. If I mention Trump's travel ban, you will dismiss it by saying that it was ineffective. Perhaps it was, but are you also saying that there should NOT have been a ban? Which was it; was the ban ineffective or was it a bad idea? I'm open to persuasion on that point. (I'll remind you that the ban was condemned by various Democrats on the grounds of its being racist, xenophobic, or something. Some of those same Dems were inviting people to go downtown and mingle.) My point, which should be obvious, is that it was an effort to deal with the pandemic. Perhaps it was ineffective. If so, it would not be the first time that a well-intentioned government effort sell short. Are we forgetting Operation Warp Speed? I suppose Trump gets no credit for that. (I'm waiting for you to explain how a POTUS does not get credit for good things done on his watch if his name if Trump.) Perhaps Trump did not do all he should have to fight this pandemic. But to intimate, as you do in your last post, that he did nothing is not accurate. My own opinion is that the President might have been more forceful in warning the public. But I also believe that Americans have been aware of the need to take precautions for months. That many are still not taking those precautions is on them, not on the President. What's "out there" is baseless conspiracy, mathematical failures and projection. We already know actual widespread voter fraud is a myth. Studies have been conducted, experts have been convened and it's not difficult to find those assessments. And as I've mentioned already, there are people who actively believe Biden stole this election. Those cultists will not change their mind, even if an investigation proves it wrong. It's too late now, with Trump spreading false information religiously from his Twitter.
Well, voter fraud does occur. That is a fact. Widespread voter fraud? Perhaps not, but as I have pointed out, the fraud does not have to change many votes if an election is almost or exactly 50/50. Most of he examples I posted ended up being decided by a fewer votes than you or I have on each hand. For that reason we must constantly re-examine voting procedures with a view to making future elections more fair and more secure. I have not argued that the charges of widespread voter fraud are valid. What I do say is that every charge made in the form of a lawsuit must be examined carefully and according to applicable laws. What's wrong with that? It is every American's right to seek redress for what they consider to be grievances. That includes Donald Trump, no matter what you think of him. Try to understand that it is not my intention to defend him, especially in cases where I myself find his behavior objectionable. But it would be a big mistake is to reject the claims of voter fraud out of hand, as some on the Left have argued. Some of the claims made in public by Trump's legal team are indeed over the top. I believe one such was the claim that Trump had received more votes that Joe Biden. I reject that claim, but your or my opinion is not the issue. The fact is that the team has failed to offer evidence in court to support the more extreme charges. They say one thing before the cameras and then say something different before the judge. There may be people who till their dying day think that Trump was cheated, no matter how many times courts rule against him. (There may also be people who till their dying day think that Trump was a Russian spy, no matter that no evidence has been brought forth to prove that charge.) Despite that, I believe that it is very important to let the legal process take its course in these cases. Just because some people can never be convinced does not mean that we should not let the President have his day in court. Spoiler alert : Donald Trump IS a traitor. He swore an oath to uphold the Constitution and faithfully execute his duties. Not sure where you have been since 2016, but he's failed miserably to uphold that oath. If you intend to argue that, then you're even more naive than you think I am. There are dozens of examples to illustrate my point.No, Ryan, he is not a traitor. You may think that is true all you want, but your individual opinion, even the opinion of many thousands, does not make it true. Only if convicted in a court of law can one correctly be said to be a traitor. I will remind you that the Democrats who impeached Trump did not include treason in their articles of impeachment. I wonder why not. Your belief that DJT did not uphold his oath of office only counts to the degree that you, and other like-minded citizens, acted upon that belief in the campaign to prevent his re-election. Over 70 million voters did not share your evaluation of the man, of course. Your beef is with them, not me. AzWm of course he's a traitor William. Insinuating that the FBI and the DOJ could be in on the "Fraud" election results is treason.
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Post by aztecryan on Nov 30, 2020 10:55:50 GMT -8
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Post by AztecWilliam on Nov 30, 2020 12:21:28 GMT -8
Sad.
Why, why is there a a seemingly obsessed need with giving him credit like it matters at all? It's all about him, all the time. Starving for the validation of the world. Notice how you didn't bother addressing the beginning of my post at all? Where intelligence agencies confirmed Russian interference on Trump's behalf? Omission noted.
------- I never said that there was no Russian interference on Trump's behalf. What I am saying is that Donald Trump did not win the 2016 election because of such interference. Can you cite, other than your personal opinion, a credible source that offers convincing evidence (again, not personal opinion) that without Russian interference Hillary Clinton would have won? -------
Regarding the travel ban, which I've probably answered seven times by now - It was completely ineffective and far too late in the process to have any real effect. That's not urban legend, those are facts rooted in statistics. It wasn't a comprehensive ban, therefore, hundreds of thousands of people flew back here, without being screened/questioned/isolated/quarantined. The virus was already here. The European travel ban, again, not a comprehensive measure (UK exempt) was likewise ineffective. As for it being "racist" - Well, when you're constantly spouting off "Wuhan flu" and "China virus", surrounded by actual racists like Peter Navarro...Yeah, that's not politically, socially or in any other realm acceptable. (Plenty of tweets remain to verify this, FYI)...Here are the facts on the "ban" so you can see how your perspective doesn't add up to what happened.
www.factcheck.org/2020/03/the-facts-on-trumps-travel-restrictions/
------- My question asked the following; Was the travel ban ineffective as designed, or was the very idea of a ban a terrible idea in the first place. Based on your response, I take it that you choose the former option. The reason I raise this issue is that many people, I guess including you, say that Trump did nothing to combat Covid-19. What he did may well have been inadequate or ineffective. Surely a case can be made for that conclusion. (It's not Trump's fault, though, that the New York officials did not take proper advantage of the hospital ship that he sent to that city.) On the other hand, it's clearly not true that Trump did nothing, which is the urban legend I made reference to.
Mishandling a serious public issue is not the same as committing treason. Let's be honest here. Legitimate criticism, which Trump has merited on many occasions, is one thing. Using any excuse to heap undue scorn upon the man is another. That's what people who really, really hate Trump do on a regular basis.
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Regarding Operation Warp Speed, as mentioned, Trump partnered with Moderna on a vaccine on January 13th, 2020. Note that date, as it's a week before the first case was announced here. Too bad he was briefed in OCTOBER, right? He spent the next several weeks/months denying the virus was serious, denying science, jeopardizing the lives of Americans, picking fights with government leadership, attacking anyone with a dissenting opinion. Here's a timeline of events, so you can see reality.
doggett.house.gov/media-center/blog-posts/timeline-trump-s-coronavirus-responses
I don't agree with pretty much anything you wrote, but I don't really want to spend the effort to refute the same talking points that you can't lose sight of. Donald Trump is a con artist, a fraud, a grifter and a traitor. Your opinion of what qualifies as such is irrelevant, as the FACTS are the only thing that matter.
Fact : Russian interference to undermine the election on the president's behalf in 2016 was confirmed.
Fact : Trump fired the cybersecurity chief, Chris Krebs, just a few weeks ago, for stating this election (2020) was fair and secure.
Fact : Trump's COVID response, including installing Mike Pence as task force leader, an unqualified Jared Kushner in charge of the federal stockpile and other events (like trying to hijack supplies through FEMA) cost a countless amount of lives.
Those facts alone make him a traitor to his office and the people he governs. I think the horse has been beaten enough for now.
---- No, they do not make him a traitor. They may make him a bad President, but there have been bad Presidents in the past. None was called a traitor. Look, I am not a fan of Donald Trump, either as a POTUS or as human being. His shortcomings are many and well known. But I do not hate the man. There are aspects of the "resistance" to Trump that worry me. * Have there ever been people harass officials of the other party when the latter were trying to eat dinner in a restaurant? * Have there ever been people seriously trying to make it difficult or impossible for former officials of the opposing party's administration to get new jobs? * Have there ever been people attack others on the street for wearing hats that support the President? I realize that politics can become very heated. Really vicious charges were hurled at candidates in the 19th Century. But this is the 21st Century. I thought we were better than that. I guess I'm a fool to believe that. Seriously, some of the things that have been used to attack Trump and his supporters really remind me of the thug tactics seen in the 30s. All they lack are the brown shirt uniforms. I remember complaints of Bush Derangement Syndrome in the early 2000s. What we have seen against Trump makes those days seem idyllic. No matter how much one may dislike DJT, the use of fascist tactics against him and his followers cannot be accepted or justified. I am worried that no matter how unobjectionable the GOP next candidate may be, we will see a "resistance," including violence or threats of violence, even before the election of 2024. Perhaps I am wrong. We shall see. We may be facing a dangerous new era in American politics. An era that will be very, very hard to overcome. AzWm
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Post by aztecryan on Nov 30, 2020 12:34:39 GMT -8
Sad.
Why, why is there a a seemingly obsessed need with giving him credit like it matters at all? It's all about him, all the time. Starving for the validation of the world. Notice how you didn't bother addressing the beginning of my post at all? Where intelligence agencies confirmed Russian interference on Trump's behalf? Omission noted.
------- I never said that there was no Russian interference on Trump's behalf. What I am saying is that Donald Trump did not win the 2016 election because of such interference. Can you cite, other than your personal opinion, a credible source that offers convincing evidence (again, not personal opinion) that without Russian interference Hillary Clinton would have won? -------
Regarding the travel ban, which I've probably answered seven times by now - It was completely ineffective and far too late in the process to have any real effect. That's not urban legend, those are facts rooted in statistics. It wasn't a comprehensive ban, therefore, hundreds of thousands of people flew back here, without being screened/questioned/isolated/quarantined. The virus was already here. The European travel ban, again, not a comprehensive measure (UK exempt) was likewise ineffective. As for it being "racist" - Well, when you're constantly spouting off "Wuhan flu" and "China virus", surrounded by actual racists like Peter Navarro...Yeah, that's not politically, socially or in any other realm acceptable. (Plenty of tweets remain to verify this, FYI)...Here are the facts on the "ban" so you can see how your perspective doesn't add up to what happened.
www.factcheck.org/2020/03/the-facts-on-trumps-travel-restrictions/
------- My question asked the following; Was the travel ban ineffective as designed, or was the very idea of a ban a terrible idea in the first place. Based on your response, I take it that you choose the former option. The reason I raise this issue is that many people, I guess including you, say that Trump did nothing to combat Covid-19. What he did may well have been inadequate or ineffective. Surely a case can be made for that conclusion. (It's not Trump's fault, though, that the New York officials did not take proper advantage of the hospital ship that he sent to that city.) On the other hand, it's clearly not true that Trump did nothing, which is the urban legend I made reference to.
Mishandling a serious public issue is not the same as committing treason. Let's be honest here. Legitimate criticism, which Trump has merited on many occasions, is one thing. Using any excuse to heap undue scorn upon the man is another. That's what people who really, really hate Trump do on a regular basis.
-----------
Regarding Operation Warp Speed, as mentioned, Trump partnered with Moderna on a vaccine on January 13th, 2020. Note that date, as it's a week before the first case was announced here. Too bad he was briefed in OCTOBER, right? He spent the next several weeks/months denying the virus was serious, denying science, jeopardizing the lives of Americans, picking fights with government leadership, attacking anyone with a dissenting opinion. Here's a timeline of events, so you can see reality.
doggett.house.gov/media-center/blog-posts/timeline-trump-s-coronavirus-responses
I don't agree with pretty much anything you wrote, but I don't really want to spend the effort to refute the same talking points that you can't lose sight of. Donald Trump is a con artist, a fraud, a grifter and a traitor. Your opinion of what qualifies as such is irrelevant, as the FACTS are the only thing that matter.
Fact : Russian interference to undermine the election on the president's behalf in 2016 was confirmed.
Fact : Trump fired the cybersecurity chief, Chris Krebs, just a few weeks ago, for stating this election (2020) was fair and secure.
Fact : Trump's COVID response, including installing Mike Pence as task force leader, an unqualified Jared Kushner in charge of the federal stockpile and other events (like trying to hijack supplies through FEMA) cost a countless amount of lives.
Those facts alone make him a traitor to his office and the people he governs. I think the horse has been beaten enough for now.
---- No, they do not make him a traitor. They may make him a bad President, but there have been bad Presidents in the past. None was called a traitor. Look, I am not a fan of Donald Trump, either as a POTUS or as human being. His shortcomings are many and well known. But I do not hate the man. There are aspects of the "resistance" to Trump that worry me. * Have there ever been people harass officials of the other party when the latter were trying to eat dinner in a restaurant? * Have there ever been people seriously trying to make it difficult or impossible for former officials of the opposing party's administration to get new jobs? * Have there ever been people attack others on the street for wearing hats that support the President? I realize that politics can become very heated. Really vicious charges were hurled at candidates in the 19th Century. But this is the 21st Century. I thought we were better than that. I guess I'm a fool to believe that. Seriously, some of the things that have been used to attack Trump and his supporters really remind me of the thug tactics seen in the 30s. All they lack are the brown shirt uniforms. I remember complaints of Bush Derangement Syndrome in the early 2000s. What we have seen against Trump makes those days seem idyllic. No matter how much one may dislike DJT, the use of fascist tactics against him and his followers cannot be accepted or justified. I am worried that no matter how unobjectionable the GOP next candidate may be, we will see a "resistance," including violence or threats of violence, even before the election of 2024. Perhaps I am wrong. We shall see. We may be facing a dangerous new era in American politics. An era that will be very, very hard to overcome. AzWm Pointless idiocy to even debate someone who is as delusional as you appear to be. You will not accept any basic premise that accuses Donald Trump of things he knowingly and willingly did. Your disjointed, fumbling and rambling statement is a joke. Fascist tactics? You mean like gassing protesters for a photo opportunity? Or sending militiarized police into cities to harass and intimidate citizens? You're in denial and it's a terrible look to have this juvenile perspective. When you willingly and knowingly endanger lives for personal gain, that doesn't make you just a bad president. That makes you a TRAITOR to the oath you swore to uphold. What you seemingly repeatedly fail to recognize that one half-hearted attempt to "ban" travel after a pandemic has started does NOT in any way outweigh the calculated and deliberate actions that negatively impeded progress towards ending this crisis. STOP PAINTING THE PRESIDENT AS A VICTIM. HE IS NOT A VICTIM.
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Post by AztecWilliam on Nov 30, 2020 12:39:45 GMT -8
Ambiguity saves him in this sense.
No, what "saves" him is that you, and many others, believe incorrectly that it is okay to use the word "traitor" to refer to a POTUS whom you hate. And I mean hate, not just disagree with in the strongest terms.
Benedict Arnold was a traitor. Check out his story and you will see the difference if you have an open mind.
AzWm
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Post by AztecWilliam on Nov 30, 2020 12:43:44 GMT -8
The degree of hatred that is expressed in so many of the recent posts really does scare me. And it appears to be getting worse.
Hope that is non-rambling enough.
AzWm
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Post by aztecryan on Nov 30, 2020 12:55:33 GMT -8
The degree of hatred that is expressed in so many of the recent posts really does scare me. And it appears to be getting worse. Hope that is non-rambling enough. AzWm I would be more worried about the lack of integrity to refute basic information that you refuse to accept. I would be far more worried at futile attempts to twist a narrative that you know is disingenous and false. Saying Donald Trump was not elected in any capacity due to Russian interference is FALSE. It's a lie. Period. Coming up with a BS false equivalency that Clinton was the least popular candidate when she WON the popular vote by the LARGEST MARGIN EVER is just pathetic. Caps lock for emphasis, not emotion. Imagine trying to explain basic evidence to people who just go "Nope, he's a victim of fascism by the left" - When you illustrate how he violated his oath and they just say "Nah, he's just a bad president, really." You're in denial. And I can't help that or help you until you get to a basic premise of being interested in logical events.
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Post by aztecryan on Nov 30, 2020 13:00:22 GMT -8
Ambiguity saves him in this sense. No, what "saves" him is that you, and many others, believe incorrectly that it is okay to use the word "traitor" to refer to a POTUS whom you hate. And I mean hate, not just disagree with in the strongest terms. Benedict Arnold was a traitor. Check out his story and you will see the difference if you have an open mind. AzWm Who are you to tell me what's incorrect? You don't have ANY sourced evidence, nor any ability (or open desire) to accept reasoned conclusions. Thanks for pulling Benedict Arnold out of the archives, but shockingly, there is more than one way to commit treason. An example would be trying to undermine a willfully democratic election by A) Tampering with votes and B) Trying to go to state legislatures to undo an election result by hosting them in a Trump hotel and C) Calling for governors to override certification of the votes already processed.
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Post by uwphoto on Nov 30, 2020 14:05:14 GMT -8
The degree of hatred that is expressed in so many of the recent posts really does scare me. And it appears to be getting worse. Hope that is non-rambling enough. AzWm William, tell that to the Republican officials in Georgia whom trump called "enemy of the people". Their families are getting death threats. If just one gets murdered, will you still be in denial of the orange cancer??
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