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Post by gigglyforshrigley on Aug 10, 2020 12:17:12 GMT -8
The CDC came out with a study a little while back saying at the time they estimated that a total of 28 million people had the virus (based on antibody studies), which lowered the death rate to .35% at the time. And that includes all the deaths in New York that happened before we had any idea how to treat this virus, and all of the nursing home deaths (close to half of all deaths if I'm not mistaken). The AVERAGE age of all deaths is 79 years old
People are using the defense of this being about player safety and not endangering college kids who aren't getting paid? Who gives a damn if there's an outbreak among college age kids? They won't even know they had the virus. I feel like everyone is taking crazy pills about all this
If they want to play, how can anyone feel the justification to stop them? I realize this is taboo to say and I'll get tarred and feathered for saying it, but someone has to
PS - Has any athlete who has tested positive for this even been hospitalized? (honest question) The only people who are taking crazy pills are those that think sports are more important than the health risks of a novel virus. So the potential folding of athletic programs and loss of who knows how many jobs across the country (not to mention opportunity for young athletes) is worth it to you when the facts and statistics show it is very, very low risk to young people?
Maybe we should all stop driving cars too since that's putting people's lives in danger
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Post by hoobs on Aug 10, 2020 12:25:36 GMT -8
The only people who are taking crazy pills are those that think sports are more important than the health risks of a novel virus. So the potential folding of athletic programs and loss of who knows how many jobs across the country is worth it to you when the facts and statistics show it is very, very low risk to young people?
Maybe we should all stop driving cars too since that's putting people's lives in danger
Ooooh, False Equivalence, much? Let's see... the country looked to be on a decent path for recovery and then everyone raced to re-open, flooded to bars/restaurants, play baseball games, etc. How's that gone? "We just have to" is NOT a good reason to start playing college football. And at the end of the day, even in your worst case scenario... colleges and universities can keep educating students without athletics programs. It wouldn't be the end of the world if college sports went back to actually being truly "amateur" with the emphasis put back on the STUDENT in student-athletes.
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Post by gigglyforshrigley on Aug 10, 2020 12:44:57 GMT -8
So the potential folding of athletic programs and loss of who knows how many jobs across the country is worth it to you when the facts and statistics show it is very, very low risk to young people?
Maybe we should all stop driving cars too since that's putting people's lives in danger
Ooooh, False Equivalence, much? Let's see... the country looked to be on a decent path for recovery and then everyone raced to re-open, flooded to bars/restaurants, play baseball games, etc. How's that gone? "We just have to" is NOT a good reason to start playing college football. And at the end of the day, even in your worst case scenario... colleges and universities can keep educating students without athletics programs. It wouldn't be the end of the world if college sports went back to actually being truly "amateur" with the emphasis put back on the STUDENT in student-athletes. We were never on a decent path to recovery. With how contagious it is, it was running rampant in February, if not earlier (I even had it, along with my 70 y/o mother and close friend at the end of Feb). We were never going to stop it completely.
Obviously car accidents aren't the exact same but I don't think its a terrible analogy. If you get in a car accident you're hurting someone else as well, similar to going out with the virus. If you choose not to go out because you're at risk, then don't go out. How people feel they can control other people's ability to live and provide for themselves/their families for 5+ months because a certain segment of the population is scared of a virus (and a VERY small segment is actually extremely vulnerable) baffles me.
The CDC said they'd approve a vaccine that had a 50% success rate and was safe to take (apparently the flu vaccine is ~30% effective). So that tells me that even when a vaccine comes out, it still won't guarantee you won't get the virus. So is every gathering just never going to happen ever again? If young people get the virus and get over it, it could help develop a heard immunity anyway
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Post by sdmotohead on Aug 10, 2020 13:16:36 GMT -8
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Post by sdcoug on Aug 10, 2020 15:00:40 GMT -8
Sadly, I think this would lead to a 1 year super conference among P5 programs who are willing to make the push. We could see 2-3 programs in the P12 + 2-3 in the B1X + whoever can survive in the B12, ACC and SEC. Might be 2 super conferences among those with financial wherewithal to put the right processes in place. Might be a case of the rich get richer (or at least the rich stay solvent while the rest fall to pieces).
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Post by azson on Aug 10, 2020 15:36:03 GMT -8
Ooooh, False Equivalence, much? Let's see... the country looked to be on a decent path for recovery and then everyone raced to re-open, flooded to bars/restaurants, play baseball games, etc. How's that gone? "We just have to" is NOT a good reason to start playing college football. And at the end of the day, even in your worst case scenario... colleges and universities can keep educating students without athletics programs. It wouldn't be the end of the world if college sports went back to actually being truly "amateur" with the emphasis put back on the STUDENT in student-athletes. We were never on a decent path to recovery. With how contagious it is, it was running rampant in February, if not earlier (I even had it, along with my 70 y/o mother and close friend at the end of Feb). We were never going to stop it completely.
Obviously car accidents aren't the exact same but I don't think its a terrible analogy. If you get in a car accident you're hurting someone else as well, similar to going out with the virus. If you choose not to go out because you're at risk, then don't go out. How people feel they can control other people's ability to live and provide for themselves/their families for 5+ months because a certain segment of the population is scared of a virus (and a VERY small segment is actually extremely vulnerable) baffles me.
The CDC said they'd approve a vaccine that had a 50% success rate and was safe to take (apparently the flu vaccine is ~30% effective). So that tells me that even when a vaccine comes out, it still won't guarantee you won't get the virus. So is every gathering just never going to happen ever again? If young people get the virus and get over it, it could help develop a heard immunity anyway
The reason it's a terrible analogy is that we all know and agree on the risks involved with driving (and there's also a proven, mandated prophylactic which greatly reduces death, AKA the seat-belt). CV19 on the other hand is still in its infancy of being understood, spotty testing, divisive debate on treatment and no current vaccine. You're essentially advocating for something that you barely understand, because let's be real, you want your football (at no risk to yourself).
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Post by moctezumaii on Aug 10, 2020 15:43:19 GMT -8
Sadly, I think this would lead to a 1 year super conference among P5 programs who are willing to make the push. We could see 2-3 programs in the P12 + 2-3 in the B1X + whoever can survive in the B12, ACC and SEC. Might be 2 super conferences among those with financial wherewithal to put the right processes in place. Might be a case of the rich get richer (or at least the rich stay solvent while the rest fall to pieces). Coug, I greatly respect your sports acumen and look forward to and value your commentary. But it seems perhaps that, in this case, if one views these matters more as a sports-related issue than a public health issue, e.g. ' There'll be season, it's just what kind of season, how will they execute the season, etc.', one doesn't see the things that led some on this board to predict months ago: no football season. For those folks, I imagine today's cancellation was about as surprising as discovering water is wet. It felt like a fait accompli, actually. I don't know, but maybe viewing college football and the virus through a prism of, ' Well, they'll just form a super conference or two and this team can play that one, it's really just a football nuts and bolts problem', misses the mark a little. Of course, there are those who think the virus is a hoax or perhaps that there are no consequences to be borne when making a game more important than public health, but from where I sit, it's looks like every week all across the country, more people are getting infected daily. Three months ago, it was 50,000 a month. Now it's 50,000 a day. And the number of daily deaths are also rising. And before someone wades in with, 'But HERD immunity!", let me say this again: THERE IS NO EVIDENCE WHATSOEVER OF ANY SIGNIFICANT, LONG-TERM HERD IMMUNITY. Nada. Zip. Zilch. Because that is not how coronaviruses operate. And given that, to date, the virus has infected less than 3% of the population, it's really just getting started. By November, who knows how many infections and how many deaths will occur each day? I do know that every prognostication by pretty much EVERYBODY SO FAR has been an underestimate. From the very beginning, when we thought March Madness would continue without crowds. We were all so naive. Yeah, maybe the SEC gets a season started. But as soon as a coach dies or their wife gets it, as soon as kids start getting this heart condition, how are they going continue? It's gonna look bad. Just my opinion. I don't have all the answers, just a lot of questions.
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Post by sdcoug on Aug 10, 2020 16:33:38 GMT -8
Sadly, I think this would lead to a 1 year super conference among P5 programs who are willing to make the push. We could see 2-3 programs in the P12 + 2-3 in the B1X + whoever can survive in the B12, ACC and SEC. Might be 2 super conferences among those with financial wherewithal to put the right processes in place. Might be a case of the rich get richer (or at least the rich stay solvent while the rest fall to pieces). Coug, I greatly respect your sports acumen and look forward to and value your commentary. But it seems perhaps that, in this case, if one views these matters more as a sports-related issue than a public health issue, e.g. ' There'll be season, it's just what kind of season, how will they execute the season, etc.', one doesn't see the things that led some on this board to predict months ago: no football season. For those folks, I imagine today's cancellation was about as surprising as discovering water is wet. It felt like a fait accompli, actually. I don't know, but maybe viewing college football and the virus through a prism of, 'Well, they'll just form a super conference or two and this team can play that one', it's really just a football nuts and bolts problem', misses the mark. Of course, there are those who think the virus is a hoax or perhaps that there are no consequences to be borne when making a game more important than public health, but from where I sit, it's looks like every week all across the country, more people are getting infected daily. Three months ago, it was 50,000 a month. Now it's 50,000 a day. And the number of daily deaths are also rising. And before someone wades in with, 'But HERD immunity!", let me say this again: THERE IS NO EVIDENCE WHATSOEVER OF ANY SIGNIFICANT, LONG-TERM HERD IMMUNITY. Nada. Zip. Zilch. Because that is not how coronaviruses operate. And, given that to date, the virus has infected less than 3% of the population, it's really just getting started. By November, who knows how many infections and how many deaths will occur each day? I do know that every prognostication by pretty much EVERYBODY has been an underestimate. From the very beginning, when we thought March Madness would continue without crowds. We were all so naive. Yeah, maybe the SEC gets a season started. But as soon as a coach dies or their wife gets it, as soon as kids start getting this heart condition, how are they going continue? It's gonna look bad. Just my opinion. I don't have all the answers, just a lot of questions. Again, it's not me saying this it's the schools (& several players). Nebraska will play, I'm sure Iowa and several others will as well. There are now player led movements for the season to happen. There will be some who will give it a go and what happens if they're successful? What do you tell the other several hundreds of players who never got the opportunity? Many people said MLB was doomed and wouldn't make it to August. It's not the same, but in a way it is. They've adjusted well. Not playing isn't something the majority of student athletes want. Depression is going to be a major issue; suicide is already an issue on campuses. IMO, if there's a chance you can make it happen, let the kids decide if they want to opt in or out, as long as the proper protocols are in place and they're properly educated on the topic. IMO it's better than not having a choice. I get what you're saying, but what happened when someone got CTE or paralyzed? Those are very real risks as well. We allowed the kids, with guidance from their parents to decide. I don't think there's a right or wrong answer. Tough position. But IMO it's better to have the choice than have it taken away from you due to fears of lawsuits and liabilities. Isn't that what waivers are for? Like you said, JMO.
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Post by gigglyforshrigley on Aug 11, 2020 4:38:19 GMT -8
We were never on a decent path to recovery. With how contagious it is, it was running rampant in February, if not earlier (I even had it, along with my 70 y/o mother and close friend at the end of Feb). We were never going to stop it completely.
Obviously car accidents aren't the exact same but I don't think its a terrible analogy. If you get in a car accident you're hurting someone else as well, similar to going out with the virus. If you choose not to go out because you're at risk, then don't go out. How people feel they can control other people's ability to live and provide for themselves/their families for 5+ months because a certain segment of the population is scared of a virus (and a VERY small segment is actually extremely vulnerable) baffles me.
The CDC said they'd approve a vaccine that had a 50% success rate and was safe to take (apparently the flu vaccine is ~30% effective). So that tells me that even when a vaccine comes out, it still won't guarantee you won't get the virus. So is every gathering just never going to happen ever again? If young people get the virus and get over it, it could help develop a heard immunity anyway
The reason it's a terrible analogy is that we all know and agree on the risks involved with driving (and there's also a proven, mandated prophylactic which greatly reduces death, AKA the seat-belt). CV19 on the other hand is still in its infancy of being understood, spotty testing, divisive debate on treatment and no current vaccine. You're essentially advocating for something that you barely understand, because let's be real, you want your football (at no risk to yourself). It has very little to do with football. I'd be more than happy to have them play it and me be banned from watching for all I care. It's about letting people have the opportunity to go through life and actually experiencing things, as well as all the economic activity sports provides. Freezing society for some virus that poses basically no danger to young people is a sham. The numbers, science, and statistics don't back it up at all... Not to mention they're just as likely to catch the virus going about their daily life anyway unless they're bunkering in their room with their mask on - which I guarantee you they're not. Risk is a part of life, there's risk in everything we do
In the beginning the freeze (to bend the curve/slow the spread) was fine, but 5 months of it is completely outrageous. I'll try to keep this about football since I don't want to get this too off topic but I could go on about other segments as well
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Post by 🥸 Hopeless Aztec on Aug 11, 2020 6:21:28 GMT -8
Such a spirited conversation and topic. I just like to see both sides and keep an open mind. I truly believe you can make an argument either way depending on your specific feelings and interests. We can talk about science, statistics, safety, precautions, masks, high risk, low risk, prevention, etc. At the end of the day we do not know the long term impact on your body. As much as I want to see sports (good lord I need some sports) we are talking about student athletes and sometimes adults need to make adult decisions and the medical professionals felt the risk was far too high. The fact some ignore the brightest minds and people they compensate for their medical opinions are being ignored is frightening.
Again, we can debate back and forth all day long but the fact remains there are just too many unknowns for these kids/young adults/student athletes to risk this so early in their lives. Take the season off and caution on the side of safety.
If everyone was wrong on there was never really any huge dangerous risks so be it and we lost a season of sports. However, if the opposite is true and the long term health impact is life threatening we can compliment and thank the folks who made that tough decision. Sometimes it takes tough people to make tough decisions regardless of the popularity of that decision.
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Post by moctezumaii on Aug 11, 2020 8:24:13 GMT -8
Such a spirited conversation and topic. I just like to see both sides and keep an open mind. I truly believe you can make an argument either way depending on your specific feelings and interests. We can talk about science, statistics, safety, precautions, masks, high risk, low risk, prevention, etc. At the end of the day we do not know the long term impact on your body. As much as I want to see sports (good lord I need some sports) we are talking about student athletes and sometimes adults need to make adult decisions and the medical professionals felt the risk was far too high. The fact some ignore the brightest minds and people they compensate for their medical opinions are being ignored is frightening. Again, we can debate back and forth all day long but the fact remains there are just too many unknowns for these kids/young adults/student athletes to risk this so early in their lives. Take the season off and caution on the side of safety. If everyone was wrong on there was never really any huge dangerous risks so be it and we lost a season of sports. However, if the opposite is true and the long term health impact is life threatening we can compliment and thank the folks who made that tough decision. Sometimes it takes tough people to make tough decisions regardless of the popularity of that decision. Hear hear. I would only add that, it's not solely the student athletes who must be considered, but numerous other folks, perhaps even a majority, orbiting in that galaxy and who are older and more susceptible than the players. Coaches, trainers, equipment personnel, drivers, cooks, caterers and the fans, should they be allowed to attend– not only do they run the legitimate risk of contraction and an untimely end, everyone, young or old, operating in such an environment exacerbates the spread and affects the public's health to some degree. IMO, the magnitude of that effect can be debated, but its importance is probably at least equal to the players' consideration. Of course, Aztecincc, none of this gainsays the essence of your post: "I just like to see both sides and keep an open mind. I truly believe you can make an argument either way depending on your specific feelings and interests." Go Aztecs.
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Post by couldashoulda on Aug 11, 2020 8:41:49 GMT -8
Such a spirited conversation and topic. I just like to see both sides and keep an open mind. I truly believe you can make an argument either way depending on your specific feelings and interests. We can talk about science, statistics, safety, precautions, masks, high risk, low risk, prevention, etc. At the end of the day we do not know the long term impact on your body. As much as I want to see sports (good lord I need some sports) we are talking about student athletes and sometimes adults need to make adult decisions and the medical professionals felt the risk was far too high. The fact some ignore the brightest minds and people they compensate for their medical opinions are being ignored is frightening. Again, we can debate back and forth all day long but the fact remains there are just too many unknowns for these kids/young adults/student athletes to risk this so early in their lives. Take the season off and caution on the side of safety. If everyone was wrong on there was never really any huge dangerous risks so be it and we lost a season of sports. However, if the opposite is true and the long term health impact is life threatening we can compliment and thank the folks who made that tough decision. Sometimes it takes tough people to make tough decisions regardless of the popularity of that decision. I lean in to much of what you say. I was having a conversation with a guy in the office yesterday about this issue. He's in the camp of "it's really not a big deal for young people to get this". Let them get it and build up the herd immunity. I countered with the mystery that still surrounds the longer term (more than 4 months) affects of the antibodies and the idea of herd immunity. Additionally, it's not just the players who are risk, but the support staff, coaches, etc. who are perhaps in age demographics a couple of decades (at least) older than the players. I brought up coach Hoke. He's about my age, and that puts him in an age bracket of being more at risk of severity and longer term complications. I mean, it's the bigger picture domino effect of saying "Just open things up...let them play ball. They (the student athletes) are more at risk at home than they are playing football". Ummm, okay. What about your elders, whether it be coaches, training staff, etc.? I will say that if I was 31 instead of 61, I would almost certainly have a different perspective on this very unusual time we are currently living in. Party on Garth!
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Post by zurac315 on Aug 11, 2020 14:55:20 GMT -8
Ooooh, False Equivalence, much? Let's see... the country looked to be on a decent path for recovery and then everyone raced to re-open, flooded to bars/restaurants, play baseball games, etc. How's that gone? "We just have to" is NOT a good reason to start playing college football. And at the end of the day, even in your worst case scenario... colleges and universities can keep educating students without athletics programs. It wouldn't be the end of the world if college sports went back to actually being truly "amateur" with the emphasis put back on the STUDENT in student-athletes. We were never on a decent path to recovery. With how contagious it is, it was running rampant in February, if not earlier (I even had it, along with my 70 y/o mother and close friend at the end of Feb). We were never going to stop it completely.
Obviously car accidents aren't the exact same but I don't think its a terrible analogy. If you get in a car accident you're hurting someone else as well, similar to going out with the virus. If you choose not to go out because you're at risk, then don't go out. How people feel they can control other people's ability to live and provide for themselves/their families for 5+ months because a certain segment of the population is scared of a virus (and a VERY small segment is actually extremely vulnerable) baffles me.
The CDC said they'd approve a vaccine that had a 50% success rate and was safe to take (apparently the flu vaccine is ~30% effective). So that tells me that even when a vaccine comes out, it still won't guarantee you won't get the virus. So is every gathering just never going to happen ever again? If young people get the virus and get over it, it could help develop a heard immunity anyway
If you cause a car accident you may well be heald responsible. You may be sued civilly. You may be charged with a crime. You may go to jail. If you spread coronavirus and people die because of it you are held responsible for nothing. Not a terrible analogy?
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Post by azson on Aug 11, 2020 16:12:19 GMT -8
Such a spirited conversation and topic. I just like to see both sides and keep an open mind. I truly believe you can make an argument either way depending on your specific feelings and interests. We can talk about science, statistics, safety, precautions, masks, high risk, low risk, prevention, etc. At the end of the day we do not know the long term impact on your body. As much as I want to see sports (good lord I need some sports) we are talking about student athletes and sometimes adults need to make adult decisions and the medical professionals felt the risk was far too high. The fact some ignore the brightest minds and people they compensate for their medical opinions are being ignored is frightening. Again, we can debate back and forth all day long but the fact remains there are just too many unknowns for these kids/young adults/student athletes to risk this so early in their lives. Take the season off and caution on the side of safety. If everyone was wrong on there was never really any huge dangerous risks so be it and we lost a season of sports. However, if the opposite is true and the long term health impact is life threatening we can compliment and thank the folks who made that tough decision. Sometimes it takes tough people to make tough decisions regardless of the popularity of that decision. I lean in to much of what you say. I was having a conversation with a guy in the office yesterday about this issue. He's in the camp of "it's really not a big deal for young people to get this". Let them get it and build up the herd immunity. I countered with the mystery that still surrounds the longer term (more than 4 months) affects of the antibodies and the idea of herd immunity. Additionally, it's not just the players who are risk, but the support staff, coaches, etc. who are perhaps in age demographics a couple of decades (at least) older than the players. I brought up coach Hoke. He's about my age, and that puts him in an age bracket of being more at risk of severity and longer term complications. I mean, it's the bigger picture domino effect of saying "Just open things up...let them play ball. They (the student athletes) are more at risk at home than they are playing football". Ummm, okay. What about your elders, whether it be coaches, training staff, etc.? I will say that if I was 31 instead of 61, I would almost certainly have a different perspective on this very unusual time we are currently living in. Party on Garth! Within the last 24 hours: news.yahoo.com/san-quentin-coronavirus-disaster-exposes-120059867.htmlwww.forbes.com/sites/mishagajewski/2020/08/11/stop-trying-to-make-herd-immunity-happen-swedens-attempt-at-covid-19-herd-immunity-failed/#3891e970541cwww.newsweek.com/swedens-coronavirus-herd-immunity-nowhere-sight-researchers-say-1524324Truly amazing that people still can't grasp the concept that this is a novel virus.
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Post by La Mesa Aztec on Aug 11, 2020 17:27:55 GMT -8
Many people said MLB was doomed and wouldn't make it to August. It's not the same, but in a way it is. They've adjusted well. I like having Padre games to watch again, but the jury is still out on MLB. The Cardinals have played a grand total of 5 games to date. Hopefully that outbreak ends up being the worst of it.
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Post by gigglyforshrigley on Aug 11, 2020 20:01:25 GMT -8
We were never on a decent path to recovery. With how contagious it is, it was running rampant in February, if not earlier (I even had it, along with my 70 y/o mother and close friend at the end of Feb). We were never going to stop it completely.
Obviously car accidents aren't the exact same but I don't think its a terrible analogy. If you get in a car accident you're hurting someone else as well, similar to going out with the virus. If you choose not to go out because you're at risk, then don't go out. How people feel they can control other people's ability to live and provide for themselves/their families for 5+ months because a certain segment of the population is scared of a virus (and a VERY small segment is actually extremely vulnerable) baffles me.
The CDC said they'd approve a vaccine that had a 50% success rate and was safe to take (apparently the flu vaccine is ~30% effective). So that tells me that even when a vaccine comes out, it still won't guarantee you won't get the virus. So is every gathering just never going to happen ever again? If young people get the virus and get over it, it could help develop a heard immunity anyway
If you cause a car accident you may well be heald responsible. You may be sued civilly. You may be charged with a crime. You may go to jail. If you spread coronavirus and people die because of it you are held responsible for nothing. Not a terrible analogy? That's the point you choose to argue?
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Post by sdcoug on Aug 12, 2020 11:08:51 GMT -8
Many people said MLB was doomed and wouldn't make it to August. It's not the same, but in a way it is. They've adjusted well. I like having Padre games to watch again, but the jury is still out on MLB. The Cardinals have played a grand total of 5 games to date. Hopefully that outbreak ends up being the worst of it. MLB changed some of the protocol rules after a few Cardinals went to a casino, which may have played into the 7 players getting sick. Only 1 of 30 teams have really been impacted - the Marlins are up & going. The jury is beyond out - the season will be 33% done after tomorrow. They've adjusted well & progressing. College sports, the NFL, etc. are all learning from this. We all are. Things evolve and changes are made. MLB is alive & well. Having a few knuckleheads like the 2 Cleveland pitchers doesn't change that.
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