Tony Gwynn and Greg Maddux

[hoystory]

Mods can move this if you want, but since it's about Tony, I figure it may fly here.

From the Washington Post on Greg Maddux's election to the Baseball Hall of Fame:

Maddux should be one of the most-copied pitchers ever, yet few would even know where to begin, because he seldom opened up about what he believed about pitching and why.

First, Maddux was convinced no hitter could tell the speed of a pitch with any meaningful accuracy. To demonstrate, he pointed at a road a quarter-mile away and said it was impossible to tell if a car was going 55, 65 or 75 mph unless there was another car nearby to offer a point of reference.

“You just can’t do it,” he said. Sometimes hitters can pick up differences in spin. They can identify pitches if there are different releases points or if a curveball starts with an upward hump as it leaves the pitcher’s hand. But if a pitcher can change speeds, every hitter is helpless, limited by human vision.

“Except,” Maddux said, “for that [expletive] Tony Gwynn.”

I LOL'd. For the record. Gwynn's lifetime batting average against Maddux was .415

[danloc09]

16 people didnt vote for maddux. THEY HAVE HALL OF FAME VOTES

[The Aztec Panther]

Now both are in the Hall of Fame together.

Tony did own Maddux, though. Tony loved it and Maddux hated it - but they had a healthy respect and admiration for each other.

[missiontrails]

I think he hit John Smoltz even better. Somewhere in the upper .400's. And that was with plenty of plate appearances against him. Man I miss Tony (as a Padre).

[podpeople]

Jan 9, 2014 21:43:06 GMT -8 missiontrails said:

I think he hit John Smoltz even better. Somewhere in the upper .400's. And that was with plenty of plate appearances against him. Man I miss Tony (as a Padre).

I think Tony had more problems hitting off the hard throwers than the finesse type guys.

[rockshow]

That's cuz Maddux's game was thinking and Tony's game was reacting. Tony's plate coverage was so good that the only guys that Tony struggled against were dudes that threw straight GAS and Tony had to gear up sooner than he would like. Still, he'd slap that $#!+ right through the 5.5 hole. I remember 36ish year old Tony hitting a line drive double off Randy Johnson in the playoffs when the Big Unit was dominant for that one Astros season.

[podpeople]

Jan 10, 2014 0:24:00 GMT -8 rockshow said:

That's cuz Maddux's game was thinking and Tony's game was reacting. Tony's plate coverage was so good that the only guys that Tony struggled against were dudes that threw straight GAS and Tony had to gear up sooner than he would like. Still, he'd slap that $#!+ right through the 5.5 hole. I remember 36ish year old Tony hitting a line drive double off Randy Johnson in the playoffs when the Big Unit was dominant for that one Astros season.

Imagine if "The BIG Unit" had a change-up in his arsenal?

Randy was one of the best power pitchers, while in his prime, that Baseball ever saw. I'd say he was better than Nolan.

[buckeyedad]

Gwynn vs. John Smoltz: 30 for 65 (.462 average)
Gwynn vs. Nolan Ryan: 19 for 63 (.302)
Gwynn vs. Greg Maddux: 39 for 91 (.429)
Gwynn vs. Tom Glavine: 29 for 93 (.312)
Gwynn vs. Doug Drabek: 23 for 49 (.469)
Gwynn vs. Orel Hershiser: 25 for 78 (.321)
Gwynn vs. Pedro Martinez: 11 for 35 (.314)
Gwynn vs. Mike Scott: 27 for 85 (.318)

[longtimebooster]

Jan 10, 2014 4:59:27 GMT -8 buckeyedad said:

Gwynn vs. John Smoltz: 30 for 65 (.462 average)
Gwynn vs. Nolan Ryan: 19 for 63 (.302)
Gwynn vs. Greg Maddux: 39 for 91 (.429)
Gwynn vs. Tom Glavine: 29 for 93 (.312)
Gwynn vs. Doug Drabek: 23 for 49 (.469)
Gwynn vs. Orel Hershiser: 25 for 78 (.321)
Gwynn vs. Pedro Martinez: 11 for 35 (.314)
Gwynn vs. Mike Scott: 27 for 85 (.318)

Wow. Those are just ridiculous numbers against a bunch of HOFers.

[C'mon Man]

Maddox never walked anybody and that's how Tony was successful against him. I specifically remember a pregame radio interview when the Padres were going to face Maddox and the interviewer asked Tony how he was able to hit him so well. Tony said something along the lines of, "you know the guy is going to throw strikes and always be around the plate." Gwynn had such great hand eye coordination, hardly ever striking out, that he was able to put the ball in play and the numbers say that 40% of them found a hole/gap.

[aztec92]

Jan 9, 2014 23:21:13 GMT -8 podpeople said:

Jan 9, 2014 21:43:06 GMT -8 missiontrails said:

I think he hit John Smoltz even better. Somewhere in the upper .400's. And that was with plenty of plate appearances against him. Man I miss Tony (as a Padre).

I think Tony had more problems hitting off the hard throwers than the finesse type guys.

Split finger fast ball was Tony's nemesis.

[K2Aztec73]

Jan 10, 2014 9:34:44 GMT -8 aztec92 said:

Jan 9, 2014 23:21:13 GMT -8 podpeople said:

I think Tony had more problems hitting off the hard throwers than the finesse type guys.

Split finger fast ball was Tony's nemesis.

This!
It would be interesting to see his career numbers against Jack Morris, one of the first split finger guys I remember who gave him serious trouble.

[aztec92]

Jan 10, 2014 11:06:15 GMT -8 K2Aztec73 said:

Jan 10, 2014 9:34:44 GMT -8 aztec92 said:

Split finger fast ball was Tony's nemesis.

This!
It would be interesting to see his career numbers against Jack Morris, one of the first split finger guys I remember who gave him serious trouble.

.333 in 8 PA (6 AB) all singles.

[sleeveless]

Yep. Maddux made it no secret that Tony was his toughest opponent. I loved watching those two go head-to-head.

[aztec92]

John Smiley owned Tony. Few others though.

.205 in 39 AB / 6 K

vs. Pitcher Stats.

[K2Aztec73]

Jan 10, 2014 11:52:20 GMT -8 aztec92 said:

John Smiley owned Tony. Few others though.

.205 in 39 AB / 6 K

vs. Pitcher Stats.

Thanks for that link... I'd been looking for it on Baseball Reference and wasn't able to find it.

Interesting numbers there... a lot depends on where you place the cutoff in terms of plate appearances to establish a significant number of times facing a pitcher.

There are only two pitchers he faced over 100 times (a pretty good indication of the longevity, and thus talent level, of the pitchers)
Greg Maddux: .415/.476/.521 (107 PA)
Tom Glavine: .303/.337/.404 (105 PA)

If you use 75 PA as the cutoff, you add
(Best performance)
John Smoltz: .444/.467/.694 (75 PA)
Rick Mahler: .402/.412/.598 (85 PA)
Tom Browning: .360/.391/.523 (92 PA)
(Worst performance)
Dwight Gooden: .243/.312/.314 (77 PA)
Mike Scott: .318/.379/.388 (95 PA)
Fernando Valenzuela: .321/.349/.410 (84 PA)

For 50 PA, you add
(Best)
Doug Drabek: .469/.480/.694 (50 PA)
Ron Darling: .441/.452/.593 (62 PA)
Pete Smith: .375/.412/.604 (51 PA)
Bobby Jones: .426/.460/.553 (50 PA)
(Worst)
Dennis Martinez: .260/.275/.320 (52 PA)
Mike Morgan: .279/.354/.279 (50 PA)
Bob Welch: .292/.320/.333 (50 PA)
Nolan Ryan: .302/.328/.333 (67 PA)

Dipping down to 25, you add
(Best)
Hideo Nomo: .560/.607/.960 (28 PA)
Jeff Brantley: .571/.636/.607 (33 PA)
Al Leiter: .455/.500/.727 (26 PA)
Don Carman: .485/.528/.697 (37 PA)
(Worst)
Omar Olivares: .120/.154/.280 (26 PA)
Jose DeLeon: .200/.250/.229 (40 PA)
Don Robinson: .231/.262/.256 (42 PA)
John Smiley: .205/.244/.282 (41 PA)

Interesting, not only for who he did best and worst against, but how well he hit (especially in the 50+ range) even against those who handled him the best.

[pasadenaztec]

Jan 9, 2014 23:21:13 GMT -8 podpeople said:

Jan 9, 2014 21:43:06 GMT -8 missiontrails said:

I think he hit John Smoltz even better. Somewhere in the upper .400's. And that was with plenty of plate appearances against him. Man I miss Tony (as a Padre).

I think Tony had more problems hitting off the hard throwers than the finesse type guys.

Kind of like Rod Carew trying to hit Nolan Ryan. Carew struck out 29 times vs. The Express! 

Carew had the 4th highest number of K's on Ryan's strikeout list.