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Post by steveaztec on Sept 20, 2009 22:25:02 GMT -8
Brady Hoke inherited a very young Offensive Line......I can't think of many Offensive Lines in D1 football (2 Deep) that is younger.
Chuck Long inherited NOTHING on the OLine (after Dombrowski was ineligible for the first 4 games). He had to recruit in quantity to shore up the numbers.
It is going to take a couple of years with this young OLine......whether it was Chuck Long OR Brady Hoke.
Most D1 teams do not have a large amount of 2 deep frosh and sophs.
It isn't that the Oline is no good. It isn't that the Oline has no talent. The Oline is young by college football standards.
***And also remember, Chuck Long recruited OLineman for HIS offensive scheme, which was a spread offense with passing as a priority. He recruited accordingly.
Brady Hoke (and Al Borges) are now going with a 50/50 run offense with more emphasis on the run.
Every coach in the nation (Chuck Long and Brady Hoke being no different) recruit players to their schemes.
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Post by steveaztec on Sept 27, 2009 18:00:29 GMT -8
I'm going to say it again....Quit blaming the Offensive Line.
This is one of the youngest Offensive Lines in the nation (D1) with the 2 deep.
The problems are a combo of three things, and the players themselves can not be blamed at this time.
#1....They are very young and most programs have a top heavy O Line of VETS. We have a couple of seniors and a junior, but they themselves are not very experienced.
#2....Most of these O Lineman were recruited to protect the pass in a spread offense. They are not untalented. They are very talented in what they do best. They are being asked to do the opposite of what they were recruited to do.
#3....More blame has to be on the Offensive Line coach, and the OC.....They have to put the players in a system that they can win in......The coaches are not doing that.
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Post by AztecWilliam on Sept 27, 2009 19:24:23 GMT -8
We hear a lot of talk about the "skill positions." such as QB, CB, and WR. Yet, as you imply, there is no replacement for a veteran, experienced line, be it offense or defense. Frankly, when I express my concerns in the area of recruiting, I am thinking largely of both lines.
Will be able to snap up some really big, fast linemen out of H.S.? You know, the outstanding players who stand 6-4 or 6-5 and already weigh 275-285? USC and UCLA will get their share, and BYU and Utah will, as well. though theirs may not be quite as big or quite as fast as the Trojan and Bruin signees. Remember, to be any good, the players we need must be more than just big.
I really hope that Hoke looks for at least two or three good JC linemen this year. We can't afford another sub-.500 season. Some good JUCO linemen might help us avoid that fate.
AzWm
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Post by steveaztec on Sept 27, 2009 19:33:09 GMT -8
I would also welcome 3 very good JC lineman that can step in right away.
But not JC lineman who are average.
Are we going to get the best out of JC lineman? Or is OU, SC, Nebraska etc.
I'm all for it, but the fact remains we are very young at OLine and people are blaming the kids. Chuck Long and Del Miller would have had a tough time offensively this year due to the youth.
Hoke and Borges are having a tough time this year due to the youth.
I know Hoke is bringing in some Olineman and that is good. I don't think he is bringing in a ton of them (like 9 or 10).
I expect about 5 ro 6, which is normal once you have numbers in the program.
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Post by AztecWilliam on Sept 27, 2009 21:18:36 GMT -8
First a thought. It's one thing to point out the deficiencies of the O-linemen. It's another to criticize them personally. (I'm not necessarily saying that anyone is doing exactly that, by the way.)
Yes, we must bring in several O-linemen, if at all possible, who can contribute right away, either as starters or coming off the bench quite a bit of the time to rest the regulars. Best would be about 3 JUCOs, but one has to wonder whether we can actually pull that off. As you say, the big schools (USC, Nebraska, Ohio State, even Arizona St.) will get the best. Will there be 2 or 3 decent linemen left (i.e., rated 2-stars but with potential and a good attitude) when the BCS schools are done?
I hope so.
Furthermore, it will be very interesting to see what Brady Hoke does about his team in the off-season. Fisher got rid of over half his team after his first year as I recall. But a football team is so much bigger. You can't just run off 35 to 40 players since you can offer only 25 scholarships per year.
If Hoke does make significant changes (within the limits mentioned above) count that as a sign that he knows what he's doing.
AzWm
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Post by aztecwin on Sept 28, 2009 4:35:51 GMT -8
We must have patience until we have the gradual improvement that experience and additional help with recruiting will bring. Going after a couple JC kids would be in order it seems to me.
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Post by Bob Forsythe on Sept 28, 2009 15:26:21 GMT -8
I'm going to say it again....Quit blaming the Offensive Line. This is one of the youngest Offensive Lines in the nation (D1) with the 2 deep. Steve, I'll agree with you on the left side, but not the right. The right has experience and just isn't very good. It's certainly not their fault that they may be playing at a level above where they should be playing; they were recruited and they would have been idiots to turn it down. But they are backups, not starters. =Bob |
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Post by steveaztec on Sept 28, 2009 19:52:00 GMT -8
I'm going to say it again....Quit blaming the Offensive Line. This is one of the youngest Offensive Lines in the nation (D1) with the 2 deep. Steve, I'll agree with you on the left side, but not the right. The right has experience and just isn't very good. It's certainly not their fault that they may be playing at a level above where they should be playing; they were recruited and they would have been idiots to turn it down. But they are backups, not starters. =Bob Peter Nelson played DLine here for 3 years including his redshirt year. That isn't experience at Oline. OLineman need about 3 years in high school and 3 in College before they really get it. |
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Post by aztecx on Sept 29, 2009 12:01:39 GMT -8
Steve, I'll agree with you on the left side, but not the right. The right has experience and just isn't very good. It's certainly not their fault that they may be playing at a level above where they should be playing; they were recruited and they would have been idiots to turn it down. But they are backups, not starters. =Bob Peter Nelson played DLine here for 3 years including his redshirt year. That isn't experience at Oline. OLineman need about 3 years in high school and 3 in College before they really get it. Steve, I say we need 2 juco OL who have experience in a run based offense who are physical. I know the young OL will get better, I just don't know if it will be good enough. I think we need the jucos to compete and challenge the young guys. Also, I think we need a juco RB. The trues may get better, but I think we need a legit big back. And while I am at it, I think we need at least 1, maybe 2 juco wideouts. I just cannot see going into next year with Brown, Sandifer and 2 RS Fr. What do you think? |
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Post by steveaztec on Sept 29, 2009 19:16:07 GMT -8
Peter Nelson played DLine here for 3 years including his redshirt year. That isn't experience at Oline. OLineman need about 3 years in high school and 3 in College before they really get it. Steve, I say we need 2 juco OL who have experience in a run based offense who are physical. I know the young OL will get better, I just don't know if it will be good enough. I think we need the jucos to compete and challenge the young guys. Also, I think we need a juco RB. The trues may get better, but I think we need a legit big back. And while I am at it, I think we need at least 1, maybe 2 juco wide outs. I just cannot see going into next year with Brown, Sandifer and 2 RS Fr. What do you think? Man, I don't know. First off I will agree right away with a JC running back, but he has to be a real good one. Not a back up. OLine? I would not be opposed to 2 JC bangers for the run. I would not bring in a JC receiver unless he was out of this world type. I think we have enough young receivers for the next couple of year and with Vincent Brown back....AND I think DeMarco Sampson may be back with a medical red-shirt. Maybe a JC Dlineman that can start if we can get a good one. I really think that (I think 4) is all Schemmel and Weber would want us to bring in at this time. I could be wrong though. I know Hoke wants to bring in some JC guys. |
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Post by aztecx on Sept 29, 2009 22:06:47 GMT -8
Man, I don't know. First off I will agree right away with a JC running back, but he has to be a real good one. Not a back up. OLine? I would not be opposed to 2 JC bangers for the run. I would not bring in a JC receiver unless he was out of this world type. I think we have enough young receivers for the next couple of year and with Vincent Brown back....AND I think DeMarco Sampson may be back with a medical red-shirt. Maybe a JC Dlineman that can start if we can get a good one. I really think that (I think 4) is all Schemmel and Weber would want us to bring in at this time. I could be wrong though. I know Hoke wants to bring in some JC guys. Steve, With regards to receiver, who besides Brown can you really count on? Sandifer? Maybe, but he will still only be a So Sampson? If he gets and extra year, can he stay healthy? RS Fr? I just don't really see a lot of veteran WR. I think a juco would help. But maybe Hoke and Co see something i don't Hey, I also think we might need a TE. All we have is a Sr, a So and a RS Fr. If we weren't going to more of a running offense, it might be enough. But I would think we would need TE's as the offense evolves. |
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Post by steveaztec on Sept 30, 2009 6:57:40 GMT -8
Man, I don't know. First off I will agree right away with a JC running back, but he has to be a real good one. Not a back up. OLine? I would not be opposed to 2 JC bangers for the run. I would not bring in a JC receiver unless he was out of this world type. I think we have enough young receivers for the next couple of year and with Vincent Brown back....AND I think DeMarco Sampson may be back with a medical red-shirt. Maybe a JC Dlineman that can start if we can get a good one. I really think that (I think 4) is all Schemmel and Weber would want us to bring in at this time. I could be wrong though. I know Hoke wants to bring in some JC guys. Steve, With regards to receiver, who besides Brown can you really count on? Sandifer? Maybe, but he will still only be a So Sampson? If he gets and extra year, can he stay healthy? RS Fr? I just don't really see a lot of veteran WR. I think a juco would help. But maybe Hoke and Co see something i don't Hey, I also think we might need a TE. All we have is a Sr, a So and a RS Fr. If we weren't going to more of a running offense, it might be enough. But I would think we would need TE's as the offense evolves. My opinion on the recievers came from a question I asked Brady Hoke at Claim Jumpers on wide recievers. He said he felt we had some read good young recievers that will impact the team next year and the following. He mentioned Sandifer and he also mention McFadden, although he is on the defensive side right now. He also said he sees potential in Nichols and Marven Jones. |
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Post by aztecx on Sept 30, 2009 8:35:21 GMT -8
Steve, With regards to receiver, who besides Brown can you really count on? Sandifer? Maybe, but he will still only be a So Sampson? If he gets and extra year, can he stay healthy? RS Fr? I just don't really see a lot of veteran WR. I think a juco would help. But maybe Hoke and Co see something i don't Hey, I also think we might need a TE. All we have is a Sr, a So and a RS Fr. If we weren't going to more of a running offense, it might be enough. But I would think we would need TE's as the offense evolves. My opinion on the recievers came from a question I asked Brady Hoke at Claim Jumpers on wide recievers. He said he felt we had some read good young recievers that will impact the team next year and the following. He mentioned Sandifer and he also mention McFadden, although he is on the defensive side right now. He also said he sees potential in Nichols and Marven Jones. That is great to hear about the receivers. since that is the case, Hoke will probably not take a JC receiver unless he is a can't miss impact player. Thanks for the info. |
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Post by steveaztec on Sept 30, 2009 20:24:30 GMT -8
My opinion on the recievers came from a question I asked Brady Hoke at Claim Jumpers on wide recievers. He said he felt we had some read good young recievers that will impact the team next year and the following. He mentioned Sandifer and he also mention McFadden, although he is on the defensive side right now. He also said he sees potential in Nichols and Marven Jones. That is great to hear about the receivers. since that is the case, Hoke will probably not take a JC receiver unless he is a can't miss impact player. Thanks for the info. No problem. I thought the most interesting thing in that conversation was his comment about McFadden. I just got the impression that we may see McFadden back on the offensive side before his career is over. |
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Post by Bob Forsythe on Oct 1, 2009 17:24:54 GMT -8
Steve, I'll agree with you on the left side, but not the right. The right has experience and just isn't very good. It's certainly not their fault that they may be playing at a level above where they should be playing; they were recruited and they would have been idiots to turn it down. But they are backups, not starters. =Bob Peter Nelson played DLine here for 3 years including his redshirt year. That isn't experience at Oline. OLineman need about 3 years in high school and 3 in College before they really get it. I think that's a questionable statement. I'd go with needing two years, but 3 in HS and 3 in college? =Bob |
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Post by AztecWilliam on Oct 1, 2009 20:06:09 GMT -8
Peter Nelson played DLine here for 3 years including his redshirt year. That isn't experience at Oline. OLineman need about 3 years in high school and 3 in College before they really get it. I think that's a questionable statement. I'd go with needing two years, but 3 in HS and 3 in college? =Bob It might be fun to find out what experience some of the best O-linemen in college had; let's say from the past decade. How many blossomed in their junior year after playing the O-line since they were on the JV in high school? How many switched from another position and did well at one of the offensive line positions? I do remember that Kyle Turley started all four years here. A long apprenticeship apparently was not needed by him. On the other hand, someone who has been working on the O-line for three or four years before his junior year in college is probably going to be well-prepared. . . that's assuming that he has the talent. The Aztecs should be much better off when they can start all juniors and seniors for most games. We're not there yet. AzWm |
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Post by steveaztec on Oct 1, 2009 22:47:09 GMT -8
Peter Nelson played DLine here for 3 years including his redshirt year. That isn't experience at Oline. OLineman need about 3 years in high school and 3 in College before they really get it. I think that's a questionable statement. I'd go with needing two years, but 3 in HS and 3 in college? =Bob We will really disagree with that one =Bob. You can't just take a Dlineman and move him to OLine (on a decent team) and expect him to make an impact in a year or 2. |
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Post by Bob Forsythe on Oct 3, 2009 8:53:24 GMT -8
I think that's a questionable statement. I'd go with needing two years, but 3 in HS and 3 in college? =Bob We will really disagree with that one =Bob. You can't just take a Dlineman and move him to OLine (on a decent team) and expect him to make an impact in a year or 2. Won't disagree with that particular situation, but if the kid's played O-Line in HS, it shouldn't take him more than 2 years in college to figure it out. =Bob |
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