Charter schools.

[aztecryan]

Brought this up briefly on the football thread, but I'd like feedback to see if I'm nuts or not.....Charter schools are not bound to the same admission policies as other schools are, case in point out here in East County with Helix and Steele Canyon. Helix, over the last 2 years in league competition has outscored opponents 454-48. Seeing the damage they are doing in the playoffs just reinforces my opinion that charter schools should not be involved in the same leagues as other schools that are bound by district boundaries. Thoughts?

[Deleted]

But Helix does pretty well academically and athletes still have to maintain a 2.0 GPA at Helix because that is a state requirement.

[aztecryan]

Purely from an athletic standpoint though, when you're pulling kids from all over the county, it puts the schools who are bound by district boundaries at a severe disadvantage. Is that a fair statement?

[bearfoot]

Nov 27, 2011 15:54:00 GMT -8 aztecryan said:

Purely from an athletic standpoint though, when you're pulling kids from all over the county, it puts the schools who are bound by district boundaries at a severe disadvantage. Is that a fair statement?

Finally some public schools have a similar advantage as the private schools.

BTW, I work at Helix. My kids went there before and as they were becoming a charter. They got their charter in 1998, which is 13 years ago, and though they have done well in football during those years, they haven't had a team like this.

They haven't won at the Q since Alex was handing off to Reggie.

They have a great coach, and he has brought the crux of the team together during the 3 years they have played on the Varsity squad.

Yes, 2 years ago, Helix played for the championship with 15 - 19 10th graders.

One thing that sets us apart from the privates is that we do not have donors at the ready to pay the tuition for football and basketball players.

[Deleted]

Here is what I know from coaching. California is an open enrollment state, per the ed code.

This says that a student entering their freshman year from the 8th grade can attend any school they wish in the state. For instance, Tyson Chandler lived across the street from San Bernadino High School, yet attended Compton Dominguez high school in Los Angeles. (public, private, or charter)

Heck I remember years ago a Oceanside stud FB player took the train everyday to attend school at Mater Dei high school.

Now their are some other issues here, to move districts per open enrollment, the district that they wish to attend first must have room to accept them, secondly their home district must sign an inter -district transfer. The home district can in fact deny the inter-district transfer (rarely happens) or the school that the student wishes to enter can say no due to large enrollment numbers.

The only way around the denial of an inter-district transfer (intra-district as well) is that the home school doesn't offer a program that the school they wish to transfer too does. Thus they cannot deny them as the groups for the request is academic in nature.

I don't believe that type of school plays a big of role as does the coaches and the parents.

I never once recruited a player to come play for me. What I do know is parents are out their at the AAU games, talking with other parents, and they are the biggest recruiters. Hey come play with my kid, come her go their, etc. Now I am not saying that there aren't coaches out their recruiting, because we know they exist, but parents are just as big a part of the problem.

Once a school starts winning, it almost feeds it's self through parent recruiting. Name carries a lot of weight.

Lastly once shoe money gets involved, kids end of in a great deal of places. One of the tops movers of kids is Nike, mostly basketball and football.

[bearfoot]

BTW, Most of the studs on the Helix team were already enrolled before coach Starr arrived.

I also believe that 90+% are from within a 6 or 7 mile radius of the school.

I do appreciate your explanation.

I tried to point out that Helix has always had some great football players, but haven't always won championships.

Coaching, coaching, coaching.
And as in all education, parents, parents, parents.

[aztecryan]

But to my original question, I believe charter schools in general (not singling out Helix here) should be put into separate leagues. The competitive balance in the Grossmont Hills League is just doing some of the kids a disservice, IMO. Is that a fair question?

[bearfoot]

Nov 30, 2011 9:56:10 GMT -8 aztecryan said:

But to my original question, I believe charter schools in general (not singling out Helix here) should be put into separate leagues. The competitive balance in the Grossmont Hills League is just doing some of the kids a disservice, IMO. Is that a fair question?

3 seasons ago, I think Valhalla was the champ in football.

I also think the rest of the sports are pretty even.

I believe that coach Starr has an amazing group, and I suppose we will have to wait to see if it continues.

As a reminder, O'Side has won something like 8 CIF championships in a row.

I do understand the concern, but as I began with, the privates have had an advantage for ever. Additionally, when SDUSD had busing, Pt. Loma and La Jolla had a huge advantage.

[kaztec]

I understand your point, but I don't think you can single out the charter schools, and say they need to be in their own league. As several posters have mentioned, what about the private schools? So, do you have one league for schools that have district boundaries, and one that does not? I just don't think that is managable.
Parents are really the main issue here. Many are willing to do whatever it takes to get what they perceive to be a competitve advantage for their child. As a parent of a high school athlete myself, I understand the compulsion. However, I also understand that one absolutely must keep their child's education as the most important factor in where the student/athlete attends school.
Long answer to the question. No, as unfair as it may seem. We have to maintain the status quo. Good coaches can create winning programs no matter where they recruit kids from.

[Deleted]

Are good coaches more apt to go to Charters and Private schools because of the above mentioned advantages?

[kaztec]

Dec 2, 2011 16:24:11 GMT -8 @fabtec said:

Are good coaches more apt to go to Charters and Private schools because of the above mentioned advantages?

Ah, fabtec, that actually may be a better question. Do the good coaches go where they believe they can get better players? Or do they go where they think it will be a bigger challenge to have okay players, and still win, thus having their coaching ability shine? Or, in this economy, do they just go where they can get a job? of corse, I don't think there has been alot of change in high school coaches much anyway.......meaning, you get what you get.

[gettough]

Winning is contagious, and even if there are boundaries, parents will move in order to have their kids play for winners. Look at programs in any high school sport that are perennial winners. Good players will get there. Academically it's the same. But notice that good players go to powerhouses unafraid of competition. Lots of kids would rather get playing time on a mediocre team than challenge for playing time on a good team.

Some schools do a great job with under-privileged students. Speaking of Helix, they have the third highest percentage of socio-economically disadvantaged students in the Grossmont District (12 schools), but they continually score in the top two or three in API and have more kids passing AP exams than any school in the district. More poor kids from City Heights and Skyline go to Helix on the lottery for the academics than athletes do for the sports. It's all about the culture a school decides to create.

[bearfoot]

Dec 2, 2011 21:32:06 GMT -8 gettough said:

Winning is contagious, and even if there are boundaries, parents will move in order to have their kids play for winners. Look at programs in any high school sport that are perennial winners. Good players will get there. Academically it's the same. But notice that good players go to powerhouses unafraid of competition. Lots of kids would rather get playing time on a mediocre team than challenge for playing time on a good team.

Some schools do a great job with under-privileged students. Speaking of Helix, they have the third highest percentage of socio-economically disadvantaged students in the Grossmont District (12 schools), but they continually score in the top two or three in API and have more kids passing AP exams than any school in the district. More poor kids from City Heights and Skyline go to Helix on the lottery for the academics than athletes do for the sports. It's all about the culture a school decides to create.

A real advantage we/they have at Helix, and other Charters, is that every student's parent/s chose to send their child/young adult to the school. Even kids in within the old Helix boundary are allowed to opt out and go to another GUHSD school.

Two years ago, Helix was state Speech team champ, and the team's makeup mirrors the school's socio-economic makeup.

[bio71]

The problem with realignment of the High school football programs is the paucity of high schools in the San Diego Section of the CIF. There are only ninety schools playing eleven man football, so breaking out the charter and private schools would disrupt the current divisions and probably cause the reduction of the playoffs to three or less games.

From cifsds.org:

*Enrollment doubled for single gender schools.
DIVISION ENROLLMENT # OF TEAMS PER DIV. # OF PLAYOFF TEAMS
I---------- 2582 and above-------18----------------------12
II-----------2109 - 2581-----------18----------------------12
III----------1722 - 2580-----------18----------------------12
IV------------550 - 1721-----------17----------------------12
V-------------Below -556-----------19----------------------12

[The Aztec Panther]

Here's what I see.

Vista used to get huge stud Samoan players that lived on the Oceanside/Vista border (and were in the school boundaries for Vista). Sometime over the last 10 years the demographics changed. The number of Samoan players on Vista's squad has dwindled. Where Vista was able to match up size and strength wise with anyone they are no longer able to do so, and haven't been able to match up with the biggest teams size-wise in about 7 or 8 years. (Helix's line averaged about 30 pounds heavier per player on the lines.)

Those Samoan players that used to go to Vista have ended up at Oceanside. Did their families move further west? Maybe. I don't know. (And how they didn't end up at El Camino I don't know, either.)

Now if Vista were a charter school the boundaries wouldn't matter, and they could get some of those kids back. Imagine if this team with this coaching staff (that has worked miracles this year) if they had 4 or 5 BIG, athletic guys on the line. They certainly wouldn't have started 0-4 this year.

So I would have to agree that the private schools and charter schools should be in their own division. They can recruit. They don't have to play by the same rules as the public schools do. That's an unfair advantage.

By the way, former San Diego Section CIF boss Dennis Ackerman set up transfer rules that are WAY stricter than the rest of the state. (He was on Coach Kentera's HS Scoreboard show about 3 years ago explaining the deal.) You can transfer once and keep eligibility (the transfer has to be approved by the CIF), but even if your familiy moves twice legitimately you can't play for a 3rd school. A lot of people thought this was harsh, but Ackerman wanted to clamp down on recruiting. Of course, charter schools and private schools are exempt from that rule. Nice.

Now, just because a school is a charter school doesn't mean that they'll automatically be good. They still need a good coaching staff. But they do have an advantage - just like the BCS schools have an advantage over non-BCS schools.

[bearfoot]

Dec 3, 2011 9:27:31 GMT -8 The Aztec Panther said:

Here's what I see.

Vista used to get huge stud Samoan players that lived on the Oceanside/Vista border (and were in the school boundaries for Vista). Sometime over the last 10 years the demographics changed. The number of Samoan players on Vista's squad has dwindled. Where Vista was able to match up size and strength wise with anyone they are no longer able to do so, and haven't been able to match up with the biggest teams size-wise in about 7 or 8 years. (Helix's line averaged about 30 pounds heavier per player on the lines.)

Those Samoan players that used to go to Vista have ended up at Oceanside. Did their families move further west? Maybe. I don't know. (And how they didn't end up at El Camino I don't know, either.)

Now if Vista were a charter school the boundaries wouldn't matter, and they could get some of those kids back. Imagine if this team with this coaching staff (that has worked miracles this year) if they had 4 or 5 BIG, athletic guys on the line. They certainly wouldn't have started 0-4 this year.

So I would have to agree that the private schools and charter schools should be in their own division. They can recruit. They don't have to play by the same rules as the public schools do. That's an unfair advantage.

By the way, former San Diego Section CIF boss Dennis Ackerman set up transfer rules that are WAY stricter than the rest of the state. (He was on Coach Kentera's HS Scoreboard show about 3 years ago explaining the deal.) You can transfer once and keep eligibility (the transfer has to be approved by the CIF), but even if your familiy moves twice legitimately you can't play for a 3rd school. A lot of people thought this was harsh, but Ackerman wanted to clamp down on recruiting. Of course, charter schools and private schools are exempt from that rule. Nice.

Now, just because a school is a charter school doesn't mean that they'll automatically be good. They still need a good coaching staff. But they do have an advantage - just like the BCS schools have an advantage over non-BCS schools.

I don't want to get in an argument with a Mod here, but from what you stated, you do not know the rules.

<<<So I would have to agree that the private schools and charter schools should be in their own division. They can recruit. They don't have to play by the same rules as the public schools do.>>>

I can not write for privates, but charter schools may not recruit. We must play by the same rules as the typical public schools.

I do know that privates do offer tuition free access to their schools, if the player/student is good enough.

I also can not write for other charters, but ours is the only HS in the county that uses the U of C entrance requirements as its basis for graduation. I also know that each class has an exit requirement to earn a grade in the class.

Now, as for the Samoan players somehow ending up at O'Side, that, mod friend, is a puzzler.

Edit starts here:

I must add that I believe that a well known, and/or great coach will draw better players. Earlier in this thread, someone wrote that students from almost anywhere can enroll as incoming freshman in any school. Vista will probably get more talented incoming freshman in the future as a result of the program rising to the top again.
Helix is solid in football, baseball and usually in basketball & track, but notso in most of the other sports.

[The Aztec Panther]

Dec 3, 2011 10:49:40 GMT -8 bearfoot said:

Dec 3, 2011 9:27:31 GMT -8 The Aztec Panther said:

Here's what I see.

Vista used to get huge stud Samoan players that lived on the Oceanside/Vista border (and were in the school boundaries for Vista). Sometime over the last 10 years the demographics changed. The number of Samoan players on Vista's squad has dwindled. Where Vista was able to match up size and strength wise with anyone they are no longer able to do so, and haven't been able to match up with the biggest teams size-wise in about 7 or 8 years. (Helix's line averaged about 30 pounds heavier per player on the lines.)

Those Samoan players that used to go to Vista have ended up at Oceanside. Did their families move further west? Maybe. I don't know. (And how they didn't end up at El Camino I don't know, either.)

Now if Vista were a charter school the boundaries wouldn't matter, and they could get some of those kids back. Imagine if this team with this coaching staff (that has worked miracles this year) if they had 4 or 5 BIG, athletic guys on the line. They certainly wouldn't have started 0-4 this year.

So I would have to agree that the private schools and charter schools should be in their own division. They can recruit. They don't have to play by the same rules as the public schools do. That's an unfair advantage.

By the way, former San Diego Section CIF boss Dennis Ackerman set up transfer rules that are WAY stricter than the rest of the state. (He was on Coach Kentera's HS Scoreboard show about 3 years ago explaining the deal.) You can transfer once and keep eligibility (the transfer has to be approved by the CIF), but even if your familiy moves twice legitimately you can't play for a 3rd school. A lot of people thought this was harsh, but Ackerman wanted to clamp down on recruiting. Of course, charter schools and private schools are exempt from that rule. Nice.

Now, just because a school is a charter school doesn't mean that they'll automatically be good. They still need a good coaching staff. But they do have an advantage - just like the BCS schools have an advantage over non-BCS schools.

I don't want to get in an argument with a Mod here, but from what you stated, you do not know the rules.

<<<So I would have to agree that the private schools and charter schools should be in their own division. They can recruit. They don't have to play by the same rules as the public schools do.>>>

I can not write for privates, but charter schools may not recruit. We must play by the same rules as the typical public schools.

Except that boundaries don't play a role in determining the enrollment at a charter school like they do a public school. So if a kid wants to go to Helix (or his parents want him to go there) he can go there if he's got decent grades - and, unless I'm misunderstanding the rules, he doesn't have to do an inter-district transfer to go there.

I do know that privates do offer tuition free access to their schools, if the player/student is good enough.

I also can not write for other charters, but ours is the only HS in the county that uses the U of C entrance requirements as its basis for graduation. I also know that each class has an exit requirement to earn a grade in the class.

Which certainly doesn't hurt in getting players who are looking to go to a good college anyway.

Now, as for the Samoan players somehow ending up at O'Side, that, mod friend, is a puzzler.

Edit starts here:

I must add that I believe that a well known, and/or great coach will draw better players. Earlier in this thread, someone wrote that students from almost anywhere can enroll as incoming freshman in any school. Vista will probably get more talented incoming freshman in the future as a result of the program rising to the top again.

Helix is solid in football, baseball and usually in basketball & track, but notso in most of the other sports.

The problem Vista has is that the school district is flat broke and has been for about 6 years (long before the economic collapse). The demographics in Vista have changed quite a bit, and the tax base went to hell. No one wants their kids to go to Vista schools. They aren't bad, but they're about 10-15 years behind the times technologically (depending on the school).

So if it's a choice between Vista and Oceanside they'll go to Oceanside (the schools have been upgraded much more than Vista).

And, to be honest, I don't think there's a great conspiracy, but just a migration of families moving further west.

And Vista's just one example of a poor school district that can't compete with many others. Vista's just lucky that they've got a great football tradition and have great coaches. Dan Williams played for Vista. He's a VHS grad. He played under the legendary Dick Haines. He was part of the 1981 CIF Championship team. He's a great coach. If not for that Vista would have been 3-7 and out of the playoffs this year. As it was they still struggled at 5-5 during the regular season. Vista goes through years of struggles at times (they can't just reload like Oceanside does).

I saw Helix this year - their line was HUGE. That team reminded me more of Vista's State Championship team of 1985 than any other that I've seen in recent years in their ability to dominate their opponents. I can see Helix becoming the next Oceanside - with a regular stream of big, athletic players who go on to D1 schools as starters. Not having boundaries will help with that.

Schools like Vista, San Marcos, Escondido, etc, will all be subject to the kids who live in the district and fall within their boundaries. Some years you get good players, others you get a bunch of bench warmers that you have to try and coach up.

I don't know - maybe I'm misunderstanding the rules as they apply to charter schools, but it seems that they would have an advantage over San Marcos, for example, which has had a terrible football program for a couple decades now largely due to demographics within their school boundaries.

[bearfoot]

Dec 3, 2011 12:04:31 GMT -8 The Aztec Panther said:

Dec 3, 2011 10:49:40 GMT -8 bearfoot said:

I don't want to get in an argument with a Mod here, but from what you stated, you do not know the rules.

<<<So I would have to agree that the private schools and charter schools should be in their own division. They can recruit. They don't have to play by the same rules as the public schools do.>>>

I can not write for privates, but charter schools may not recruit. We must play by the same rules as the typical public schools.

Except that boundaries don't play a role in determining the enrollment at a charter school like they do a public school. So if a kid wants to go to Helix (or his parents want him to go there) he can go there if he's got decent grades - and, unless I'm misunderstanding the rules, he doesn't have to do an inter-district transfer to go there.


Which certainly doesn't hurt in getting players who are looking to go to a good college anyway.

Now, as for the Samoan players somehow ending up at O'Side, that, mod friend, is a puzzler.

Edit starts here:

I must add that I believe that a well known, and/or great coach will draw better players. Earlier in this thread, someone wrote that students from almost anywhere can enroll as incoming freshman in any school. Vista will probably get more talented incoming freshman in the future as a result of the program rising to the top again.

Helix is solid in football, baseball and usually in basketball & track, but notso in most of the other sports.

The problem Vista has is that the school district is flat broke and has been for about 6 years (long before the economic collapse). The demographics in Vista have changed quite a bit, and the tax base went to hell. No one wants their kids to go to Vista schools. They aren't bad, but they're about 10-15 years behind the times technologically (depending on the school).

So if it's a choice between Vista and Oceanside they'll go to Oceanside (the schools have been upgraded much more than Vista).

And, to be honest, I don't think there's a great conspiracy, but just a migration of families moving further west.

And Vista's just one example of a poor school district that can't compete with many others. Vista's just lucky that they've got a great football tradition and have great coaches. Dan Williams played for Vista. He's a VHS grad. He played under the legendary Dick Haines. He was part of the 1981 CIF Championship team. He's a great coach. If not for that Vista would have been 3-7 and out of the playoffs this year. As it was they still struggled at 5-5 during the regular season. Vista goes through years of struggles at times (they can't just reload like Oceanside does).

I saw Helix this year - their line was HUGE. That team reminded me more of Vista's State Championship team of 1985 than any other that I've seen in recent years in their ability to dominate their opponents. I can see Helix becoming the next Oceanside - with a regular stream of big, athletic players who go on to D1 schools as starters. Not having boundaries will help with that.

Schools like Vista, San Marcos, Escondido, etc, will all be subject to the kids who live in the district and fall within their boundaries. Some years you get good players, others you get a bunch of bench warmers that you have to try and coach up.

I don't know - maybe I'm misunderstanding the rules as they apply to charter schools, but it seems that they would have an advantage over San Marcos, for example, which has had a terrible football program for a couple decades now largely due to demographics within their school boundaries.

I agree with all in your last post. I just wanted to make it clear that, per CIF rules, no high school is allowed to recruit. Some schools don't have to.
IMO the best player at Helix is a buddy of mine who is too short to play much D-I.

He is a junior and has played varsity since the 3rd game of his freshman season. He was elevated to starter before that season was half over.

He is smart enough, and has good enough to get into the Ivies.

His classroom name is William Milo, and as a sub, he is the perfect student. If he is any of my classes, or around, he will always tell any students who are close by to pay attention to Mr bearfoot.

William is about 5'8" and weighs right around 250. I believe he was all CIF last season. (his sophomore year)

[gettough]

Helix has boundaries. Students who do not live within the boundaries must apply and be chosen in the lottery process. The school cannot, by law, give any preference for grades or athletics. They pull names out of a hat to fill any spaces they may have based upon a target enrollment set by the charter board. So if the board sets the enrollment target at 2300 and there are 2225 in the school, they draw names, assign numbers and take them by lottery number until they 75 confirmed. If a great athlete is number 100 out of the lottery, he is out of luck.

[bearfoot]

Dec 3, 2011 21:51:58 GMT -8 gettough said:

Helix has boundaries. Students who do not live within the boundaries must apply and be chosen in the lottery process. The school cannot, by law, give any preference for grades or athletics. They pull names out of a hat to fill any spaces they may have based upon a target enrollment set by the charter board. So if the board sets the enrollment target at 2300 and there are 2225 in the school, they draw names, assign numbers and take them by lottery number until they 75 confirmed. If a great athlete is number 100 out of the lottery, he is out of luck.

Thanks
I thought it was something like that.