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Post by ptsdthor on Jul 16, 2010 21:33:45 GMT -8
From FDR's Treasury Secretary Diary...
Treasury Secretary Henry Morgenthau, angry at the Keynesian spenders, confided to his diary May 1939: "We have tried spending money. We are spending more than we have ever spent before and it does not work. And I have just one interest, and now if I am wrong somebody else can have my job. I want to see this country prosper. I want to see people get a job. I want to see people get enough to eat. We have never made good on our promises. I say after eight years of this administration, we have just as much unemployment as when we started. And enormous debt to boot."
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Post by aztecwin on Jul 17, 2010 5:58:09 GMT -8
Keynesian ideas never worked and never will work. You would think that these Obummercrats would have caught on.
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Post by AztecWilliam on Jul 17, 2010 9:20:47 GMT -8
A very interesting and very neglected quote. Well, it has been neglected up until recently. I think you may have found it in Amity Shlaes book The Forgotten Man, a brilliant history of the Great Depression. (Check out this rather even-handed review of the book from politico.com. www.politico.com/news/stories/0409/21477.html)The battle being waged today in this country is whether a small group of "experts" in positions of power (i.e., in the federal government) can run the economy better than private individuals and companies. Collectivists/Leftists/Democrats bet on the govt. Conservatives and libertarians bet on the private sector. Since the memory of the Great Depression haunts us to this day, I suggest strongly that you read Amity Shlaes book. AzWm |
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Post by aztec70 on Jul 17, 2010 16:46:52 GMT -8
Our economy did not get going full tilt again until WW2. Of course, that was due to private enterprise. All ships with letters of marque, those privately raised militias going off to war and such. No government spending in that war, right? ;D
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Post by ptsdthor on Jul 17, 2010 21:42:34 GMT -8
Our economy did not get going full tilt again until WW2. Of course, that was due to private enterprise. All ships with letters of marque, those privately raised militias going off to war and such. No government spending in that war, right? ;D And I suppose the Cash and Carry and Lend/Lease programs that pumped billions and billions of foreign money into the US economy and the post-war global demand for goods that the US could manufacture efficiently had nothing to do with the US's recovery and it was all FDR's deficit spending through the '30s that fixed it  |
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Post by aztec70 on Jul 17, 2010 23:35:08 GMT -8
Our economy did not get going full tilt again until WW2. Of course, that was due to private enterprise. All ships with letters of marque, those privately raised militias going off to war and such. No government spending in that war, right? ;D And I suppose the Cash and Carry and Lend/Lease programs that pumped billions and billions of foreign money into the US economy and the post-war global demand for goods that the US could manufacture efficiently had nothing to do with the US's recovery and it was all FDR's deficit spending through the '30s that fixed it Do have a cite that billions and billion of dollars in foreign money was pumped into the American economy by Cash and Carry and Lend/Lease? Since my sarcastic post went over your head I will be more explicit. The depression in the USA ended with the complete mobilization of our economy to fight WW2. In case you did not know that mobilization was lead by the government. It went deeply into debt to do so. After the war was over several interesting things happened. First, the military did not shrink to its pre-war levels, as it had after all other wars. It stayed quite large and remains so. In fact, we spend almost half of the world's military expenditures. (Why is that?  ) This expenditure supports a great deal of our economy. (Maybe that is why) Second, those that were demobilized were not just left to fend for themselves. They were given a great opportunity. I can't believe the GI Bill does not get more credit for all the good it did for our country. Those soldiers and sailors that filled colleges to the brim became engineers, accountants, teachers, doctors lawyers. Wow, what a boost that was for the country. An educated country is so needed for economic success. So, number one and two were directly government. Thirdly, we were the only industrial power left in the world. The industrial capacity of the rest of the world had been basically destroyed by the war. What a step up to gain the economic status we achieved after the war. We had no competition left. So, no, it was not FDR's policies in the thirties that ended the depression. He did not do enough. It was idiots like Morgenthau that prevented that. Keynes was, and is correct. What conservatives never want to recognize is that Keynes did not say that deficit spending is the way to go all the time. Only in bad times when private demand shrinks. When times are good government is to pay down the debt and get ready for the next time the economy crashes. It always does, and always will. That is just the way it is. |
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Post by aztecwin on Jul 18, 2010 5:30:41 GMT -8
And I suppose the Cash and Carry and Lend/Lease programs that pumped billions and billions of foreign money into the US economy and the post-war global demand for goods that the US could manufacture efficiently had nothing to do with the US's recovery and it was all FDR's deficit spending through the '30s that fixed it Do have a cite that billions and billion of dollars in foreign money was pumped into the American economy by Cash and Carry and Lend/Lease? Since my sarcastic post went over your head I will be more explicit. The depression in the USA ended with the complete mobilization of our economy to fight WW2. In case you did not know that mobilization was lead by the government. It went deeply into debt to do so. After the war was over several interesting things happened. First, the military did not shrink to its pre-war levels, as it had after all other wars. It stayed quite large and remains so. In fact, we spend almost half of the world's military expenditures. (Why is that? ) This expenditure supports a great deal of our economy. (Maybe that is why) Second, those that were demobilized were not just left to fend for themselves. They were given a great opportunity. I can't believe the GI Bill does not get more credit for all the good it did for our country. Those soldiers and sailors that filled colleges to the brim became engineers, accountants, teachers, doctors lawyers. Wow, what a boost that was for the country. An educated country is so needed for economic success. So, number one and two were directly government. Thirdly, we were the only industrial power left in the world. The industrial capacity of the rest of the world had been basically destroyed by the war. What a step up to gain the economic status we achieved after the war. We had no competition left. So, no, it was not FDR's policies in the thirties that ended the depression. He did not do enough. It was idiots like Morgenthau that prevented that. Keynes was, and is correct. What conservatives never want to recognize is that Keynes did not say that deficit spending is the way to go all the time. Only in bad times when private demand shrinks. When times are good government is to pay down the debt and get ready for the next time the economy crashes. It always does, and always will. That is just the way it is. One great big fact that you don't seem to be able to grasp is that there was a difference in the kind of people and the attitude of the people in the 40's and 50's. We were hard working people with huge common goal at that time. What do we have now? We have a huge part of the population that refuse to work and produce anything of value. We have generations of people on the dole eating up the seed corn. That is one huge difference that you don't seem to want to talk about. We don't have Rosie the Riveter, but we do have Ralph the EBT spender. Krugman and Keynes will never be right, just as they never have been right. The spending was something else that a hard working country with a purpose had to overcome. |
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Post by aztec70 on Jul 18, 2010 10:39:03 GMT -8
Really, aztecwin, old people have thought that young people were not worth a $#!+ since time out of mind. You are just adding your voice to the chorus. Do your grandchildren know you think so poorly of them?  |
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Post by aztecwin on Jul 18, 2010 12:09:45 GMT -8
Really, aztecwin, old people have thought that young people were not worth a $#!+ since time out of mind. You are just adding your voice to the chorus. Do your grandchildren know you think so poorly of them? My Grandchildren know just how poorly I think of the liberals that they will have to support unless we come to our senses starting this November. Is that question an attempt to change the idea to one about peoples ages rather than the times and attitudes of people? Young and old in the WW2 days were saving bacon grease and tin foil. They were working long shifts in the shipyards to turn out ships and guns. They were not sitting on their dead liberal fannies waiting for Obama to steal from productive workers to give them their cash for a clunker or steal from future home sales to put some buyer incentive in place. |
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Post by aztec70 on Jul 18, 2010 13:11:06 GMT -8
Really, aztecwin, old people have thought that young people were not worth a $#!+ since time out of mind. You are just adding your voice to the chorus. Do your grandchildren know you think so poorly of them? My Grandchildren know just how poorly I think of the liberals that they will have to support unless we come to our senses starting this November. Is that question an attempt to change the idea to one about peoples ages rather than the times and attitudes of people? Young and old in the WW2 days were saving bacon grease and tin foil. They were working long shifts in the shipyards to turn out ships and guns. They were not sitting on their dead liberal fannies waiting for Obama to steal from productive workers to give them their cash for a clunker or steal from future home sales to put some buyer incentive in place. As I understand your post you do not want to address the points I made, but would rather drag some tired old "back in my day" we were wonderful vs. those damn kids nowadays. Let me ask a questions, though. Were those guns and ships being paid for by the government? Were they manned by the military that was paid by the government? Did the government mandate rationing and recycling? Just want to see if you know that the government was controlling our economy. Enquiring minds want to know.  |
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Post by aztecwin on Jul 18, 2010 13:53:28 GMT -8
My Grandchildren know just how poorly I think of the liberals that they will have to support unless we come to our senses starting this November. Is that question an attempt to change the idea to one about peoples ages rather than the times and attitudes of people? Young and old in the WW2 days were saving bacon grease and tin foil. They were working long shifts in the shipyards to turn out ships and guns. They were not sitting on their dead liberal fannies waiting for Obama to steal from productive workers to give them their cash for a clunker or steal from future home sales to put some buyer incentive in place. As I understand your post you do not want to address the points I made, but would rather drag some tired old "back in my day" we were wonderful vs. those damn kids nowadays. Let me ask a questions, though. Were those guns and ships being paid for by the government? Were they manned by the military that was paid by the government? Did the government mandate rationing and recycling? Just want to see if you know that the government was controlling our economy. Enquiring minds want to know. Just to let you know that I indeed know that we were united behind a noble effort just as we would be today were it not for the lazy, stupid, and drug ridden liberals. Of course our war effort was government directed and led. Not as well as it could have been, but much better than we are today. |
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Post by ptsdthor on Jul 18, 2010 14:13:38 GMT -8
And I suppose the Cash and Carry and Lend/Lease programs that pumped billions and billions of foreign money into the US economy and the post-war global demand for goods that the US could manufacture efficiently had nothing to do with the US's recovery and it was all FDR's deficit spending through the '30s that fixed it Do have a cite that billions and billion of dollars in foreign money was pumped into the American economy by Cash and Carry and Lend/Lease? Since my sarcastic post went over your head I will be more explicit. The depression in the USA ended with the complete mobilization of our economy to fight WW2. In case you did not know that mobilization was lead by the government. It went deeply into debt to do so. After the war was over several interesting things happened. First, the military did not shrink to its pre-war levels, as it had after all other wars. It stayed quite large and remains so. In fact, we spend almost half of the world's military expenditures. (Why is that? ) This expenditure supports a great deal of our economy. (Maybe that is why) Second, those that were demobilized were not just left to fend for themselves. They were given a great opportunity. I can't believe the GI Bill does not get more credit for all the good it did for our country. Those soldiers and sailors that filled colleges to the brim became engineers, accountants, teachers, doctors lawyers. Wow, what a boost that was for the country. An educated country is so needed for economic success. So, number one and two were directly government. Thirdly, we were the only industrial power left in the world. The industrial capacity of the rest of the world had been basically destroyed by the war. What a step up to gain the economic status we achieved after the war. We had no competition left. So, no, it was not FDR's policies in the thirties that ended the depression. He did not do enough. It was idiots like Morgenthau that prevented that. Keynes was, and is correct. What conservatives never want to recognize is that Keynes did not say that deficit spending is the way to go all the time. Only in bad times when private demand shrinks. When times are good government is to pay down the debt and get ready for the next time the economy crashes. It always does, and always will. That is just the way it is. One big fact you fail to include/grasp is that Hoover and FDR exacerbated the depression with higher taxes. Under Herbert Hoover, the top rate was hiked from 24 to 63 percent. Under Franklin Roosevelt, the top rate was again raised — first to 79 percent and later to 90 percent. The idiot actually proposed a 99.5% rate. But for being an arms exporter accompanied by the incredible increase in productivity brought by the "mobilization" you refer to, our economy would have stunk on ice for the rest of the 40's. You are dreaming if you think if a lot more hand-out make-work programs and higher taxes would have made that economy or this economy soar, you are badly mistaken. If you were correct, then the Soviet Union's economy would have "soared" from the 50's to the 80's. |
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Post by The Great Aztec Joe on Jul 19, 2010 15:46:39 GMT -8
Keynesian ideas never worked and never will work. You would think that these Obummercrats would have caught on. Actually, the strong revival of the German economy is proof positive that Keynesian spending worked. Germany is doing quite well as best I can tell. I do not see an illusion. |
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Post by AztecBill on Jul 22, 2010 15:47:39 GMT -8
Keynesian ideas never worked and never will work. You would think that these Obummercrats would have caught on. Actually, the strong revival of the German economy is proof positive that Keynesian spending worked. Germany is doing quite well as best I can tell. I do not see an illusion. I don't think you have been keeping up with what is spuring the German economy. Germany's corporate tax rate is 29.8%. It was reduced from 42%. They also cut income tax. |
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Post by aztecwin on Jul 22, 2010 16:08:40 GMT -8
Keynesian ideas never worked and never will work. You would think that these Obummercrats would have caught on. Actually, the strong revival of the German economy is proof positive that Keynesian spending worked. Germany is doing quite well as best I can tell. I do not see an illusion. I don't think you are getting the picture. |
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Post by The Great Aztec Joe on Jul 22, 2010 18:08:38 GMT -8
Actually, the strong revival of the German economy is proof positive that Keynesian spending worked. Germany is doing quite well as best I can tell. I do not see an illusion. I don't think you are getting the picture. Nope, I got the picture very clearly. That East German politician did a remarkable job with the German Economy. They spent a lot of money getting the factories going. In fact, the European revival is quite frankly purely Germanic. To be fair to Bill, I was not aware that they had cut their taxes that much, but if that was added to the spending, then it was a good thing to do and another feather in Angela Merkle's cap. |
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Post by aztec70 on Jul 22, 2010 20:31:47 GMT -8
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Post by The Great Aztec Joe on Jul 23, 2010 6:10:07 GMT -8
Interesting. I could have looked it up, but got sidetracked by too many other things yesterday. I do love to learn, so appreciated your link. Thanks. "Tax at the source" is that what we call Value Added Tax? If we add that to Income Tax, what is the effective rate of taxation? |
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) This expenditure supports a great deal of our economy. (Maybe that is why) Second, those that were demobilized were not just left to fend for themselves. They were given a great opportunity. I can't believe the GI Bill does not get more credit for all the good it did for our country. Those soldiers and sailors that filled colleges to the brim became engineers, accountants, teachers, doctors lawyers. Wow, what a boost that was for the country. An educated country is so needed for economic success. So, number one and two were directly government. Thirdly, we were the only industrial power left in the world. The industrial capacity of the rest of the world had been basically destroyed by the war. What a step up to gain the economic status we achieved after the war. We had no competition left.
