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Post by aztecwin on May 25, 2011 13:34:50 GMT -8
I don't think anyone would advocate private enterprise operate without some common sense over site. It is just that government should not be involved the doing, only in authorizing. It should also be directed by the lowest level possible under broad guidelines. I know of no one out to ruin nature. Your last sentence is extremely naive Win. Large corporations (ex: mining interests) are out to make money, you actually believe they consider damage to the environment as part of project design??? other than to meet existing environmental regulations?? Look one person's "nature" is Sea World, another one's is orca's in the wild. The public (and corporations) in the US are certainly much more educated regarding the natural world than lets say 50 years ago. I'll give you one example of a critical project right now, and that's the "Pebble Mine" on Bristol Bay in Alaska. As you know, Bristol Bay is the last, greatest salmon fishery in the World. Large scale mining and salmon have never mixed successfully, and never will. It will be up to the Fishing industry and Government fisheries biologists to show that it would be a disaster to put that mine in up there. Not naive at all. I just suggest that oversight at the lowest level will work. You must apply some common sense about both protection and what constitutes overkill to the point of making a project financially undo-able. It is a bit over the top to suggest that people would do harm to the environment as part of their plans. |
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Post by uwaztec on May 25, 2011 16:08:33 GMT -8
Your last sentence is extremely naive Win. Large corporations (ex: mining interests) are out to make money, you actually believe they consider damage to the environment as part of project design??? other than to meet existing environmental regulations?? Look one person's "nature" is Sea World, another one's is orca's in the wild. The public (and corporations) in the US are certainly much more educated regarding the natural world than lets say 50 years ago. I'll give you one example of a critical project right now, and that's the "Pebble Mine" on Bristol Bay in Alaska. As you know, Bristol Bay is the last, greatest salmon fishery in the World. Large scale mining and salmon have never mixed successfully, and never will. It will be up to the Fishing industry and Government fisheries biologists to show that it would be a disaster to put that mine in up there. Not naive at all. I just suggest that oversight at the lowest level will work. You must apply some common sense about both protection and what constitutes overkill to the point of making a project financially undo-able. It is a bit over the top to suggest that people would do harm to the environment as part of their plans. Win...I'm just going to give you two of the tiniest examples. Where people trying to do harm to the environment when they released wild pigs at San Vincente Reservoir? Answer is no...is it harmful to the environment, answer is yes. Ask other Counties in central California about the explosion of wild pig populations and the effects of that. How about the introduction of giant cane (Arundo) to coastal California tributaries. Seen the San Luis Rey lately? Creates a vegetation community that virtually nothing native can live in (except wild pigs love it). It takes 4-5 series of herbicide over 2-3 growth cycles to get rid of the stuff. Were people trying to harm the environment when they introduced it? Do the corporate execs of the Pebble Mine think they will "harm" the environment by putting a giant mine on Bristol Bay?...answer is no. |
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Post by aztecwin on May 25, 2011 16:41:32 GMT -8
Not naive at all. I just suggest that oversight at the lowest level will work. You must apply some common sense about both protection and what constitutes overkill to the point of making a project financially undo-able. It is a bit over the top to suggest that people would do harm to the environment as part of their plans. Win...I'm just going to give you two of the tiniest examples. Where people trying to do harm to the environment when they released wild pigs at San Vincente Reservoir? Answer is no...is it harmful to the environment, answer is yes. Ask other Counties in central California about the explosion of wild pig populations and the effects of that. How about the introduction of giant cane (Arundo) to coastal California tributaries. Seen the San Luis Rey lately? Creates a vegetation community that virtually nothing native can live in (except wild pigs love it). It takes 4-5 series of herbicide over 2-3 growth cycles to get rid of the stuff. Were people trying to harm the environment when they introduced it? Do the corporate execs of the Pebble Mine think they will "harm" the environment by putting a giant mine on Bristol Bay?...answer is no. I agree with that, what I am saying is that was not the intent. We have that same cane like growth in Moousa Creek behind my house. |
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Post by Bob Forsythe on May 25, 2011 17:31:20 GMT -8
The Feds are currently picking up 75% of the cost of the wildfires. Perry's whining because Obama didn't declare a state of emergency in Texas. =Bob You are missing the obvious. Under the current situation, Perry and Texas are being treated like step children that are misbehaving. It is political on the part of Obama. Perry is merely pointing out that under the current condition that aide is being rationed on a punitive political basis. And the Republicans wouldn't? That's rather naive. =Bob |
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Post by Bob Forsythe on May 25, 2011 17:32:34 GMT -8
It may have been a troll, but it does bring up an interesting question in response to Bill's stance that without federal taxes the states could take care of themselves. The question is this - are there projects that a priori must be national projects? Would we have an interstate system if it had been left up to the states? Would Hoover Dam been built if it was left up to the few states that benefit from it and other dams on the Colorado? =Bob Good question and you avoided joining the "dull side". I could take a long time to counter your question with an answer that would explain how Hoover Dam could have been built more efficiently privately or how the Eisenhower Interstate could have been done better but it would all be academic as it was done the way that it was done. "Could have been", but that's really the academic side of it because you have no way to prove it would have been. =Bob |
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Post by Bob Forsythe on May 25, 2011 17:36:03 GMT -8
Well I do know that Muir Woods would have been used to help re-build San Francisco after the 1906 quake. Of course great Americans like Teddy Roosevelt, John Muir and Gifford Pinchot stepped in at the last minute to preserve one of the Golden State's greatest gems. Hey guess what, San Francisco still got rebuilt no problem. The government is no where near perfect, but left to private contractors.... half-dome would be a rock quarry by now. I don't think anyone would advocate private enterprise operate without some common sense oversite. It is just that government should not be involved the doing, only in authorizing. It should also be directed by the lowest level possible under broad guidelines. I know of no one out to ruin nature. The private sector wasn't involved in building Hoover Dam or the interstate system? The government, read taxpayers, paid for both those projects but you want to argue that private concerns just be handed the bucks with little oversight? The last sentence is just your usual troll. =Bob |
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Post by Bob Forsythe on May 25, 2011 17:41:51 GMT -8
Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't you an insurance broker? =Bob I am an insurance wholesaler but I don't have the conflict of interest that you are suggesting. I specialize in underwriting restaurants, bars, taverns and (switching gears) in brokering environmental coverages in AK, CO, OR & WA. I have not placed a single flood policy or earthquake policy and I don't write in any of the tornado or hurricane areas. My "policy position" stands on its own. Yoda out... The insurance brokers who get elected to office and wind up controlling state oversight committees may not trade in a particular form of insurance either, but they tend to protect their own. But aside from that, salesmen tend to believe in their product which sometimes leads to loyalty to all products in a given industry. Wasn't suggesting you sold flood insurance, just was suggesting that it's rather naive to assume insurance companies would stop development in flood plains. The more likely scenario is they would refine the fine print to avoid paying off when there is a flood or would only sell policies in states that had weak insurance laws. =Bob |
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Post by aztec70 on May 25, 2011 20:05:35 GMT -8
Your last sentence is extremely naive Win. Large corporations (ex: mining interests) are out to make money, you actually believe they consider damage to the environment as part of project design??? other than to meet existing environmental regulations?? Look one person's "nature" is Sea World, another one's is orca's in the wild. The public (and corporations) in the US are certainly much more educated regarding the natural world than lets say 50 years ago. I'll give you one example of a critical project right now, and that's the "Pebble Mine" on Bristol Bay in Alaska. As you know, Bristol Bay is the last, greatest salmon fishery in the World. Large scale mining and salmon have never mixed successfully, and never will. It will be up to the Fishing industry and Government fisheries biologists to show that it would be a disaster to put that mine in up there. Not naive at all. I just suggest that oversight at the lowest level will work. You must apply some common sense about both protection and what constitutes overkill to the point of making a project financially undo-able. It is a bit over the top to suggest that people would do harm to the environment as part of their plans. As part of their business plan? Of course not. People plan to make money. However, no one can deny there is pollution. Preventing it costs money. There is the rub. |
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Post by inevitec on May 28, 2011 13:04:29 GMT -8
The comments in the Dallas paper are fun.  Dallas is a very unusual place, even by Texas standards. |
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Post by inevitec on May 30, 2011 7:22:22 GMT -8
Well I do know that Muir Woods would have been used to help re-build San Francisco after the 1906 quake. Of course great Americans like Teddy Roosevelt, John Muir and Gifford Pinchot stepped in at the last minute to preserve one of the Golden State's greatest gems. Hey guess what, San Francisco still got rebuilt no problem. The government is no where near perfect, but left to private contractors.... half-dome would be a rock quarry by now. I don't think anyone would advocate private enterprise operate without some common sense oversite. It is just that government should not be involved the doing, only in authorizing. It should also be directed by the lowest level possible under broad guidelines. I know of no one out to ruin nature. Please name an entity sufficiently empowered to oversee business if it is not the government. Then, if you would, tell me why we should trust them. The problem with the Republicans is that they want to use the wolf to protect the hen house. At least the government attempts to represent the people. No effing one else does. The Republicans have to come up with a strategy that does not appear to favor the rich and overlook corporate mis-behavior, while at the same time appearing to insist that regular people become more responsible and get by with less. I find it personally insulting when a Republican tells me to become more responsible. Every time the conservative, Republican trope of celebrate and reward the well off while castigating the rest of us to tighten our belts ideology is illustrated in contrast, as in NY26, recently, they lose. The problem is that Republicans have become accomplished liars and they prey on fear to misdirect people to vote their way. I am sick of Republicans telling us to quit depending on the government when their own scumbag supporters do such an outstanding job of it.Rick Perry? There is something highly ironic about a governor who espouses the secession of his own state from the union considering running for president. The smartest thing about him are his boots. |
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Post by aztecwin on May 30, 2011 7:39:25 GMT -8
I don't think anyone would advocate private enterprise operate without some common sense oversight. It is just that government should not be involved the doing, only in authorizing. It should also be directed by the lowest level possible under broad guidelines. I know of no one out to ruin nature. Please name an entity sufficiently empowered to oversee business if it is not the government. Then, if you would, tell me why we should trust them. The problem with the Republicans is that they want to use the wolf to protect the hen house. At least the government attempts to represent the people. No effing one else does. The Republicans have to come up with a strategy that does not appear to favor the rich and overlook corporate mis-behavior, while at the same time appearing to insist that regular people become more responsible and get by with less. I find it personally insulting when a Republican tells me to become more responsible. Every time the conservative, Republican trope of celebrate and reward the well off while castigating the rest of us to tighten our belts ideology is illustrated in contrast, as in NY26, recently, they lose. The problem is that Republicans have become accomplished liars and they prey on fear to misdirect people to vote their way. I am sick of Republicans telling us to quit depending on the government when their own scumbag supporters do such an outstanding job of it.Rick Perry? There is something highly ironic about a governor who espouses the secession of his own state from the union considering running for president. The smartest thing about him are his boots. Probably not so, but you sound like you are dependent on government and are afraid of losing some support. Somehow I just feel better depending on the marketplace to decide how things are done than government folks like Shumer, Obama and Pelosi. Do you blame me? Let government do things that are legit function under the Constitution and let the market decide most of the rest within reason. |
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Post by inevitec on May 30, 2011 8:31:42 GMT -8
Please name an entity sufficiently empowered to oversee business if it is not the government. Then, if you would, tell me why we should trust them. The problem with the Republicans is that they want to use the wolf to protect the hen house. At least the government attempts to represent the people. No effing one else does. The Republicans have to come up with a strategy that does not appear to favor the rich and overlook corporate mis-behavior, while at the same time appearing to insist that regular people become more responsible and get by with less. I find it personally insulting when a Republican tells me to become more responsible. Every time the conservative, Republican trope of celebrate and reward the well off while castigating the rest of us to tighten our belts ideology is illustrated in contrast, as in NY26, recently, they lose. The problem is that Republicans have become accomplished liars and they prey on fear to misdirect people to vote their way. I am sick of Republicans telling us to quit depending on the government when their own scumbag supporters do such an outstanding job of it.Rick Perry? There is something highly ironic about a governor who espouses the secession of his own state from the union considering running for president. The smartest thing about him are his boots. Probably not so, but you sound like you are dependent on government and are afraid of losing some support. Somehow I just feel better depending on the marketplace to decide how things are done than government folks like Shumer, Obama and Pelosi. Do you blame me? Let government do things that are legit function under the Constitution and let the market decide most of the rest within reason. When I have to protect myself and my kids from being screwed by some business, trust in the free market is the first thing I think of. Business exists to create a profit. Everything else is an externality. If you expect the free market to equitably regulate itself without oversight, you are mistaken. "Dependent", that's funny Win. |
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Post by aztecwin on May 30, 2011 17:25:19 GMT -8
Probably not so, but you sound like you are dependent on government and are afraid of losing some support. Somehow I just feel better depending on the marketplace to decide how things are done than government folks like Shumer, Obama and Pelosi. Do you blame me? Let government do things that are legit function under the Constitution and let the market decide most of the rest within reason. When I have to protect myself and my kids from being screwed by some business, trust in the free market is the first thing I think of. Business exists to create a profit. Everything else is an externality. If you expect the free market to equitably regulate itself without oversight, you are mistaken. "Dependent", that's funny Win. I had to make sure I got a reply!  |
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Post by Bob Forsythe on May 30, 2011 17:46:24 GMT -8
Win...I'm just going to give you two of the tiniest examples. Where people trying to do harm to the environment when they released wild pigs at San Vincente Reservoir? Answer is no...is it harmful to the environment, answer is yes. Ask other Counties in central California about the explosion of wild pig populations and the effects of that. How about the introduction of giant cane (Arundo) to coastal California tributaries. Seen the San Luis Rey lately? Creates a vegetation community that virtually nothing native can live in (except wild pigs love it). It takes 4-5 series of herbicide over 2-3 growth cycles to get rid of the stuff. Were people trying to harm the environment when they introduced it? Do the corporate execs of the Pebble Mine think they will "harm" the environment by putting a giant mine on Bristol Bay?...answer is no. I agree with that, what I am saying is that was not the intent. We have that same cane like growth in Moousa Creek behind my house. Virtually every stream bed in the County has it. At our property in Lakeside we removed around 30 acres of arundo (and around 35 homeless camps - they like arundo because they can build hooches with it). We just closed escrow on 6 acres on Los Coches Creek upstream of our property because the arundo breaks off, floats downstream and establishes itself on our property, where Los Coches flows into the San Diego River. Arundo is insidious because it's so dense it causes stream flows to slow down and that leads to enhanced flooding. The San Diego River Conservancy got permits from the State for removing arundo on the River and its tributaries and we are operating on those permits. It's only about 3 acres of creek bed, but it's a start. Unless people understand how choked by non-native plants our streambeds have become, they cannot understand how much flood hazards are enhanced. It's not just about "bugs and bunnies" as Afan likes to assert - it's far more about protecting people, their health and their property. =Bob |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 5, 2011 11:29:57 GMT -8
Texas Gov. Rick Perry says 10th Amendment dominant issue for 2012 trailblazersblog.dallasnews.com/archives/2011/05/rick-perry-says-10th-amendment.htmlGov. Rick Perry on Tuesday told a group of national Republicans that the 2012 presidential election would center on state sovereignty and limited intervention from Washington. "The federal government was created by the states to be an agent for the states, not the other way around," Perry said at the Republican National Committee's state chairmen's meeting in Dallas. "The things they supposed to be doing, all too often, they are failures at. All the other things they decided they know best in, and are forcing themselves upon the state, they need to get out of." (more at link) Personally I think Perry is a fuggin idiot. He most certainly would accept FEMA money and assistance in an emergency and he certainly wants Federal money to be spent in Texas. I'd love to debate that stupid son of a bitch. Great idea last time it cost us close to a million lives. MY great grandfather surrendered at Appomattox with General Lee,less two bothers and five cousins his young family,wife two children who died do to sickness ,malnutrition from Sheridan's raids. |
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